Show us the best worst RPG art :D
This one is from Drakar & Demoner, which is NOT a comedy game. They had rights to use Runequest rues, and adopted ducks as a race, so they thought this was a good idea:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51176077057_bc23532d14_c.jpg)
Quote from: Trond on May 13, 2021, 02:15:47 PM
Show us the best worst RPG art :D
This one is from Drakar & Demoner, which is NOT a comedy game. They had rights to use Runequest rues, and adopted ducks as a race, so they thought this was a good idea:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51176077057_bc23532d14_c.jpg)
I think I have a bigger problem with the wang-staff than the duck.
Quote from: Trond on May 13, 2021, 02:15:47 PM
Show us the best worst RPG art :D
This one is from Drakar & Demoner, which is NOT a comedy game. They had rights to use Runequest rues, and adopted ducks as a race, so they thought this was a good idea:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51176077057_bc23532d14_c.jpg)
The Ducks have always been an utterly baffling aspect of Runequest's worldbuilding. It's like "here's a reasonably well researched depiction of a fantasy world based on Iron Age Europe and O
H BY THE WAY HERE'S DAFFY DUCK!"
After falling on hard times, Donald took up adventuring to help pay for his nephews' schooling, as well as to hopefully one day track down and defeat the shame of his family, the terrible lich Scrooge McDuck...
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-8Vwg60vnBlg%2FU_tIKEA4NEI%2FAAAAAAAAERI%2FN0dzQFLyqjE%2Fs1600%2FI_DnD_TavernBard_1200px.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
cringe :o
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 13, 2021, 03:24:32 PM
After falling on hard times, Donald took up adventuring to help pay for his nephews' schooling, as well as to hopefully one day track down and defeat the shame of his family, the terrible lich Scrooge McDuck...
Nah.
Scrooge is more of a Mummy Lord type...
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F01%2Fcd%2F92%2F01cd923eb813f7bcc3d49372f945f0ea.png&f=1&nofb=1)
I could do this all day.
Quote from: Hakdov on May 13, 2021, 03:39:50 PM
cringe :o
Just short of every halfling depicted in every 5e book I have so far looks deformed, or outright hideous. I can think of two, maybe 3 at best that were not circus freaks.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 13, 2021, 03:24:32 PM
After falling on hard times, Donald took up adventuring to help pay for his nephews' schooling, as well as to hopefully one day track down and defeat the shame of his family, the terrible lich Scrooge McDuck...
I'd be surprised if that is not a plotline for Wizards of Mickey...
I mean we had Micky turn into a Death Knight in that. Scrooge being some undead horror fits perfectly.
As for the ducks in Runequest and Drakkar. It fits the original cursed by a god origin. And they did it before the advent of Gully Dwarves and Tinker Gnomes in Dragonlance. Another product of a curse.
Though nothing really approaches the WTF x 100 of 3e Cyberpunk2020. 10 years to produce... this. And these are just samples of larger pieces throughout.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j8/theamazingfanboy/barbiepunk2.jpg)
Quote from: Omega on May 13, 2021, 04:01:11 PM
As for the ducks in Runequest and Drakkar. It fits the original cursed by a god origin. And they did it before the advent of Gully Dwarves and Tinker Gnomes in Dragonlance. Another product of a curse.
Though nothing really approaches the WTF x 100 of 3e Cyberpunk2020. 10 years to produce... this. And these are just samples of larger pieces throughout.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j8/theamazingfanboy/barbiepunk2.jpg)
Oh fuck yeah... The BarbiePunk edition. The "art" was terrible, and what the setting became was so bad I almost did t give Red a chance (but I'm glad I did).
Though in all honesty they should have had a doll-figure for the, ahem, were-whales or whatever they hell they were.
The setting was no longer cyberpunk. It was a post apoc nano-world not much different from d20modern Gamma World.
Quote from: Hakdov on May 13, 2021, 03:46:11 PM
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F01%2Fcd%2F92%2F01cd923eb813f7bcc3d49372f945f0ea.png&f=1&nofb=1)
I could do this all day.
Elvis & Elves, the game where you can play diminutive trans Elvis impersonators with boobs.
To be fair to Drakar & Demoner, I always liked the direction they took with the Expert edition. Oh and in some illustrations they almost managed to make the duck look like a viable option. But the above drawing just went all out on Donald Duck clashing with relatively "normal" RPG stuff.
Quote from: Trond on May 13, 2021, 05:03:35 PM
To be fair to Drakar & Demoner, I always liked the direction they took with the Expert edition. Oh and in some illustrations they almost managed to make the duck look like a viable option. But the above drawing just went all out on Donald Duck clashing with relatively "normal" RPG stuff.
I think its just that particular artist. Nisse Gullikssons ducks could get right down savage. Particularly the black pirate ducks.
Having the white ducks be civilised merchants, brown ducks be magically talented and the black ducks be savage pirates would really not fly in todays climate though.
(https://www.svenskarollspel.nu/wikia/images/7/74/Anka_folkslag.JPG)
The worst thing about CPv3 is the unreadable font. It's literally headache inducing for me.
Quote from: zircher on May 13, 2021, 05:47:24 PM
The worst thing about CPv3 is the unreadable font. It's literally headache inducing for me.
No, that's not the worst thing, but if you couldn't read it, you didn't get to the worst parts.
LOL, that is entirely possible. Will upgrade to worse encountered part over worst part. :D
Quote from: zircher on May 13, 2021, 06:08:54 PM
LOL, that is entirely possible. Will upgrade to worse encountered part over worst part. :D
Gamer's life saved by horrible font. Spared brain death of actually reading 3e CP2020 further! News at 11.
Mike Pondsmith's brain found in jar! Claims Plausible Deniability regarding 3e CP. pg 3 of the Enquirer.
Quote from: Hakdov on May 13, 2021, 03:39:50 PM
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-8Vwg60vnBlg%2FU_tIKEA4NEI%2FAAAAAAAAERI%2FN0dzQFLyqjE%2Fs1600%2FI_DnD_TavernBard_1200px.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
cringe :o
I remember Spoony showing off that image during his 5th Edition review. It and the other related pieces make both the Halflings and Gnomes look like deformed children.
Quote from: Hakdov on May 13, 2021, 03:39:50 PM
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-8Vwg60vnBlg%2FU_tIKEA4NEI%2FAAAAAAAAERI%2FN0dzQFLyqjE%2Fs1600%2FI_DnD_TavernBard_1200px.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
cringe :o
Absolutely! I mean, by the time that kind of neckcloth was adopted historically, that kind of lute had been out of fashion for a couple of centuries.
And, have you ever tried playing a lute while dancing without a guitar-style shoulder strap?
And, lute shells are pretty thin - you're really risking damaging it if you're wearing that cut-down-rapier and having the pommel knock against the instrument.
(Also, the dance looks vaguely galliarde-like, which is probably outdated before that style of rapier hilt becomes popular, and was never really taken up as a folk tradition. Or is it supposed to be Irish step dancing?)
Quote from: Renegade_Productions on May 13, 2021, 08:14:03 PM
Quote from: Hakdov on May 13, 2021, 03:39:50 PM
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-8Vwg60vnBlg%2FU_tIKEA4NEI%2FAAAAAAAAERI%2FN0dzQFLyqjE%2Fs1600%2FI_DnD_TavernBard_1200px.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
cringe :o
I remember Spoony showing off that image during his 5th Edition review. It and the other related pieces make both the Halflings and Gnomes look like deformed children.
Self-portraits by the artists, then.
I'm surprised HasWoTCbro hasn't yet been pummeled by the Woke Brigade In Defense of Height Diversity (don't you dare call them Little People!).
Quote from: Naburimannu on May 14, 2021, 08:18:59 AM
Quote from: Hakdov on May 13, 2021, 03:39:50 PM
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-8Vwg60vnBlg%2FU_tIKEA4NEI%2FAAAAAAAAERI%2FN0dzQFLyqjE%2Fs1600%2FI_DnD_TavernBard_1200px.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
cringe :o
Absolutely! I mean, by the time that kind of neckcloth was adopted historically, that kind of lute had been out of fashion for a couple of centuries.
And, have you ever tried playing a lute while dancing without a guitar-style shoulder strap?
And, lute shells are pretty thin - you're really risking damaging it if you're wearing that cut-down-rapier and having the pommel knock against the instrument.
(Also, the dance looks vaguely galliarde-like, which is probably outdated before that style of rapier hilt becomes popular, and was never really taken up as a folk tradition. Or is it supposed to be Irish step dancing?)
This post has amused me. More!
This book is called "Viking Age" (not "Sexy Fantasy Vikings" or some such), and the art pieces on the front and back really give me a lot of confidence in this product.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b7/2a/d4/b72ad4400a5df796635fa0a39500ed50.jpg)
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 10:41:48 AM
This book is called "Viking Age" (not "Sexy Fantasy Vikings" or some such), and the art pieces on the front and back really give me a lot of confidence in this product.
Avalanche Press was notorious for their cheesecake covers during the d20 boom.
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 10:41:48 AM
This book is called "Viking Age" (not "Sexy Fantasy Vikings" or some such), and the art pieces on the front and back really give me a lot of confidence in this product.
Oh gods. Horny helmets...
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2021, 10:44:21 AM
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 10:41:48 AM
This book is called "Viking Age" (not "Sexy Fantasy Vikings" or some such), and the art pieces on the front and back really give me a lot of confidence in this product.
Avalanche Press was notorious for their cheesecake covers during the d20 boom.
And I'm actually a bit of a cheesecake fan..... but this still did not rock my boat 😄
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 11:23:01 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2021, 10:44:21 AM
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 10:41:48 AM
This book is called "Viking Age" (not "Sexy Fantasy Vikings" or some such), and the art pieces on the front and back really give me a lot of confidence in this product.
Avalanche Press was notorious for their cheesecake covers during the d20 boom.
And I'm actually a bit of a cheesecake fan..... but this still did not rock my boat 😄
same, it's a little too formal and like it can't decide between being a drawing or a photo.
I think I'll make new D20 campaign book about authentic viking culture. How do you like this as a cover? :D
(https://www.malltop1.com/UpLoad/Pro_Images_02/o_Sexy-Viking-Warrior-Costume-N5892_4_45_854.jpg)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 14, 2021, 10:44:21 AM
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 10:41:48 AM
This book is called "Viking Age" (not "Sexy Fantasy Vikings" or some such), and the art pieces on the front and back really give me a lot of confidence in this product.
Avalanche Press was notorious for their cheesecake covers during the d20 boom.
So was Dragon magazine, back in the day.
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 12:26:56 PM
I think I'll make new D20 campaign book about authentic viking culture. How do you like this as a cover? :D
(https://www.malltop1.com/UpLoad/Pro_Images_02/o_Sexy-Viking-Warrior-Costume-N5892_4_45_854.jpg)
Okay, this has inspired me. For my next campaign world the Tieflings are going to be Vikings.
Those aren't horned helmets... they're helmets with holes for horns. ;D
Double post, disregard.
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 10:41:48 AM
This book is called "Viking Age" (not "Sexy Fantasy Vikings" or some such), and the art pieces on the front and back really give me a lot of confidence in this product.
-Cut-
Oh, very nice. Kinda wish we had more RPG covers like that one these days.
Not sure if this one is a joke...... :D
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/147334068_4486904264659548_8780620852300870304_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=KEHoBH0cuQQAX_FXROL&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=07f2814cd54f1589a964f073203fbd1e&oe=60C3608F)
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 05:53:44 PM
Not sure if this one is a joke...... :D
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/147334068_4486904264659548_8780620852300870304_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=KEHoBH0cuQQAX_FXROL&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=07f2814cd54f1589a964f073203fbd1e&oe=60C3608F)
"Flex reality" oh, that's the class Flex Mentallo is.
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 10:41:48 AM
This book is called "Viking Age" (not "Sexy Fantasy Vikings" or some such), and the art pieces on the front and back really give me a lot of confidence in this product.
At least they fixed the problem in their later books....
(https://www.rpg.net/pictures/show-pic.phtml?picid=11748)
(https://www.rpg.net/pictures/show-pic.phtml?picid=9323)
;D
Elmore's stuff may have been cheesecake but damn if it didn't at least look better than this stuff. Avalanche's covers look suspiciously like photomanipulation.
Quote from: Pat on May 14, 2021, 06:36:15 PM
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 10:41:48 AM
This book is called "Viking Age" (not "Sexy Fantasy Vikings" or some such), and the art pieces on the front and back really give me a lot of confidence in this product.
At least they fixed the problem in their later books....
(https://www.rpg.net/pictures/show-pic.phtml?picid=11748)
(https://www.rpg.net/pictures/show-pic.phtml?picid=9323)
;D
maybe we could blur the titles and play a game of "guess what this book is about".
Has anyone read these? I wonder what the text is like.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 14, 2021, 07:00:28 PM
Elmore's stuff may have been cheesecake but damn if it didn't at least look better than this stuff. Avalanche's covers look suspiciously like photomanipulation.
Personally I am not his biggest fan, but I have nothing against Elmore's type of cheesecake.
I saw this the other day and thought it was a joke. Nope, it's an Evil Hat game.
(https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thirsty_sword_lesbians_tabletop_game.jpg)
Quote from: Hakdov on May 14, 2021, 07:20:00 PM
I saw this the other day and thought it was a joke. Nope, it's an Evil Hat game.
(https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thirsty_sword_lesbians_tabletop_game.jpg)
But... Evil Hat
is the joke.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 14, 2021, 07:00:28 PM
Elmore's stuff may have been cheesecake but damn if it didn't at least look better than this stuff. Avalanche's covers look suspiciously like photomanipulation.
Tracing porn is my guess.
Quote from: Hakdov on May 14, 2021, 07:20:00 PM
I saw this the other day and thought it was a joke. Nope, it's an Evil Hat game.
(https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thirsty_sword_lesbians_tabletop_game.jpg)
Found some superb one-liners from this game
"If you love angsty disaster lesbians with swords, you have come to the right place."
"In this book, you'll find:
Flirting, sword-fighting, and zingers in a system designed for both narrative drama and player safety."
Player safety? Are swords going to fly out of the pages?
Joking of course, but it deserves mockery. I rather have the cheesecake than the virtue signaling bullshit any day. The cheesecake is more honest at least as it is just sex sales.
Quote from: HappyDaze on May 14, 2021, 07:21:26 PM
Quote from: Hakdov on May 14, 2021, 07:20:00 PM
I saw this the other day and thought it was a joke. Nope, it's an Evil Hat game.
(https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thirsty_sword_lesbians_tabletop_game.jpg)
But... Evil Hat is the joke.
And they always will be.
Not terrible, but it always makes me cringe.
Quote from: Aglondir on May 14, 2021, 09:50:38 PM
Not terrible, but it always makes me cringe.
Looks vaguely familiar. What the hell is going on here? Is the wizard farting laughing gas? 🤪
(http://oh-mygame.com/38-thickbox_default/les-exaltes-livre-de-regles.jpg)
Perhaps it's just me, but I always thought that Exalted had bad cover art on their books . This one I find especially awful, the whole pose with the strange bow and all just looks awkward and fake.
If you want awkward and Exalted...
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/34GoYGB5XmvKlSebCp5hqA__imagepagezoom/img/_a71vGnphjBNpTGzUraYDjUy1XE=/fit-in/1200x900/filters:no_upscale():strip_icc()/pic968186.jpg)
Amazing Adventures (Besides the index being really fucked up in the PDF ) has this gem in page 32 :
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 14, 2021, 11:16:36 PM
Amazing Adventures (Besides the index being really fucked up in the PDF ) has this gem in page 32 :
WTF? Is the guy melting in his chair? 😆
Quote from: Pat on May 14, 2021, 10:28:21 PM
If you want awkward and Exalted...
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/34GoYGB5XmvKlSebCp5hqA__imagepagezoom/img/_a71vGnphjBNpTGzUraYDjUy1XE=/fit-in/1200x900/filters:no_upscale():strip_icc()/pic968186.jpg)
I remember that one. The controversy and gnashing of teeth could be heard to the high heavens, so it was almost worth it 😀
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 14, 2021, 11:16:36 PM
Amazing Adventures (Besides the index being really fucked up in the PDF ) has this gem in page 32 :
I... don't hate that art. Despite the technical problems.
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 11:21:36 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 14, 2021, 11:16:36 PM
Amazing Adventures (Besides the index being really fucked up in the PDF ) has this gem in page 32 :
WTF? Is the guy melting in his chair? 😆
Well, his left leg seems broken.
Quote from: Pat on May 14, 2021, 11:56:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 14, 2021, 11:16:36 PM
Amazing Adventures (Besides the index being really fucked up in the PDF ) has this gem in page 32 :
I... don't hate that art. Despite the technical problems.
I'd be completely fine with it, if only the artist hadn't been high on mushrooms while drawing the limbs on the guy in the chair.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 15, 2021, 12:21:10 AM
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 11:21:36 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 14, 2021, 11:16:36 PM
Amazing Adventures (Besides the index being really fucked up in the PDF ) has this gem in page 32 :
WTF? Is the guy melting in his chair? 😆
Well, his left leg seems broken.
Sometimes looking suave involves a little pain.
Totally worth it.
Yeah, Savant and Sorcerer is almost the gold standard for 'are you drawing an RPG cover, or are you drawing your fetish art?'.
I'm no prude and I love my cheesecake, but I remember wondering why exactly they'd use THAT image. Y'know, aside from 'sex sells'.
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 05:53:44 PM
Not sure if this one is a joke...... :D
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/147334068_4486904264659548_8780620852300870304_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=KEHoBH0cuQQAX_FXROL&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=07f2814cd54f1589a964f073203fbd1e&oe=60C3608F)
I'm glad to see that Varg is finally getting recognition from the RPG industry.
Just let me get my 2e PHB reprints and I'll win this thread...
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 15, 2021, 07:23:46 AM
Yeah, Savant and Sorcerer is almost the gold standard for 'are you drawing an RPG cover, or are you drawing your fetish art?'.
I'm no prude and I love my cheesecake, but I remember wondering why exactly they'd use THAT image. Y'know, aside from 'sex sells'.
DID it sell?
I've talked to artists known for doing sexy stuff (the late Mark E. Rogers, Adam Warren), and the impression I've gotten is that sex sells, but not as well as you'd think.
Sex also tends to drive out other qualities that might also sell.
I think you're better off keeping it PG-13 and implying more than you show.
In that female halfling bard picture up-thread, what I object to is that she's wearing a backpack on stage.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 15, 2021, 10:07:59 AM
Just let me get my 2e PHB reprints and I'll win this thread...
You'll lose.
Overall the art isnt bad. Its just some of it clashes even more than the original AD&D DMG art did. Especially those more whimsical line art pieces. Though that is more in the revised PHB that the original PHB. Though that piece on page 83 is pushing it a bit. But I know that artist. He uses alot of stills from movies and live models for his references. His arts good overall. But his method can lead to a bit of a collage feel.
And that piece with the dwarves and, whatever that is. Elf?
That piece on page 85 of revised 2e is weird. Is that a ghost partially in the floor? Or was the piece meant to cut off sooner? Thats not so much though a WTF moment as a, huh one. And that piece on page 250 looks more like a sketch. But could just be an attempt to do something ghostly.
Yeah the way I remember it 1st Ed Ad&D had worse art than 2nd ed, but that was probably just a progression towards higher production quality in general. I don't have those in front of me though.
When Monte Cook reprinted Arcana Unearthed as Arcana Evolved, he included an artist with just horrible art. So I submit this example:
(https://writeups.letsyouandhimfight.com/images/012d76dea4dd5686ba18c86c4c1ef6af0f00a6a2d7457d9c7e287f9121b373fe.png)
This in a core rulebook, full-color, $50 (at the time that was pricey).
Quote from: Omega on May 15, 2021, 10:51:40 AM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 15, 2021, 10:07:59 AM
Just let me get my 2e PHB reprints and I'll win this thread...
You'll lose.
Overall the art isnt bad. Its just some of it clashes even more than the original AD&D DMG art did. Especially those more whimsical line art pieces. Though that is more in the revised PHB that the original PHB. Though that piece on page 83 is pushing it a bit. But I know that artist. He uses alot of stills from movies and live models for his references. His arts good overall. But his method can lead to a bit of a collage feel.
And that piece with the dwarves and, whatever that is. Elf?
That piece on page 85 of revised 2e is weird. Is that a ghost partially in the floor? Or was the piece meant to cut off sooner? Thats not so much though a WTF moment as a, huh one. And that piece on page 250 looks more like a sketch. But could just be an attempt to do something ghostly.
I thought the 1989 PHB and DMG looked quite good. It was mainly the revised one that bothered me (something about the coloration of the images, the overall look, etc). I actually picked up a POD copy of the revised version recently just so I would have a fresh copy of the 2E rules (my 1989 PHB is in rough shape). It isn't just the art in the revised, the font choice, the layout, everything really sticks out bad. Maybe it is the POD file (been years since I flipped through the revised version). But it is genuinely hard to read (even if you put aside the look and art, it is physically difficult to read the text)
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 15, 2021, 02:56:03 PM
I thought the 1989 PHB and DMG looked quite good. It was mainly the revised one that bothered me (something about the coloration of the images, the overall look, etc). I actually picked up a POD copy of the revised version recently just so I would have a fresh copy of the 2E rules (my 1989 PHB is in rough shape). It isn't just the art in the revised, the font choice, the layout, everything really sticks out bad. Maybe it is the POD file (been years since I flipped through the revised version). But it is genuinely hard to read (even if you put aside the look and art, it is physically difficult to read the text)
I have the Premium Reprint from WotC's run of the books used as the source for the reprints. It's the same as you describe. Everything about it was a regression for the '89 layout.
I might have exaggerated a little, but I'm referring to the reprint, of course (I remember the original one quite fondly. It had some AMAZING pieces IIRC).
I mean, look at this:
(https://i.ibb.co/zGjpNXN/Pcs.png)
There are some decent pieces... more or less... and I find the layout bland but not bad.
Overall, I'm appalled by the odd choices, pastel colors, lack of excitement and low quality. But there are certainly worse books out there.
Quote from: Omega on May 15, 2021, 10:51:40 AM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 15, 2021, 10:07:59 AM
Just let me get my 2e PHB reprints and I'll win this thread...
You'll lose.
Overall the art isnt bad. Its just some of it clashes even more than the original AD&D DMG art did. Especially those more whimsical line art pieces. Though that is more in the revised PHB that the original PHB. Though that piece on page 83 is pushing it a bit. But I know that artist. He uses alot of stills from movies and live models for his references. His arts good overall. But his method can lead to a bit of a collage feel.
And that piece with the dwarves and, whatever that is. Elf?
That piece on page 85 of revised 2e is weird. Is that a ghost partially in the floor? Or was the piece meant to cut off sooner? Thats not so much though a WTF moment as a, huh one. And that piece on page 250 looks more like a sketch. But could just be an attempt to do something ghostly.
Not sure we are talking about the same book; mine has nothing on page 83, and this on page 85:
(https://i.ibb.co/BTF1vT5/85.png)
The black cover 2nd edition AD&D really had the most hideous art, they made the lineart doodles on the 1st edition books look like Rembrandt.
Too bad they have the rights to the Dresden Rpg. Otherwise they would be dead to me. Two times a bunch of hypocrites. " mine is the root of all evil!....don't forgot to send us money to hit our Kickstarter goals". Or worse "lovecraft is an evil Wacist!....we are going to add Cthulhu on our covers. Otherwise our garbage lovecraft rpg won't sell".
The 2E art in the black books was alright. The original art was good yet imo too bloody for the intended audience. I have seen worse at least it was new art.
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 15, 2021, 02:56:03 PMI thought the 1989 PHB and DMG looked quite good. It was mainly the revised one that bothered me (something about the coloration of the images, the overall look, etc). I actually picked up a POD copy of the revised version recently just so I would have a fresh copy of the 2E rules (my 1989 PHB is in rough shape). It isn't just the art in the revised, the font choice, the layout, everything really sticks out bad. Maybe it is the POD file (been years since I flipped through the revised version). But it is genuinely hard to read (even if you put aside the look and art, it is physically difficult to read the text)
AD&D Revised or 2e Revised?
Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 15, 2021, 06:11:31 PM
Not sure we are talking about the same book; mine has nothing on page 83, and this on page 85:
(https://i.ibb.co/BTF1vT5/85.png)
I got the numbers off think. But thats the piece and looking at it now what I thought was a signature is more likely legs in the same sort of chain-mail style garb as the arms.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 15, 2021, 06:04:50 PM
I might have exaggerated a little, but I'm referring to the reprint, of course (I remember the original one quite fondly. It had some AMAZING pieces IIRC).
I mean, look at this:
(https://i.ibb.co/zGjpNXN/Pcs.png)
There are some decent pieces... more or less... and I find the layout bland but not bad.
Overall, I'm appalled by the odd choices, pastel colors, lack of excitement and low quality. But there are certainly worse books out there.
God, the 2e Reprint (black cover) was atrocious. I remember the formatting was terrible as well. I'm so glad I found original print copies, and skipped the WOTC 2e re-reprint when I found out it was from that version.
Makes me think some of that was done with coloured pencils. Which is quite good results really. Just some like that one are a bit... off? Others are pretty good really. And at least one is a-lot worse.
Quote from: Omega on May 16, 2021, 05:54:02 AM
Makes me think some of that was done with coloured pencils. Which is quite good results really. Just some like that one are a bit... off? Others are pretty good really. And at least one is a-lot worse.
The guy in the middle looks like he had some watercolor lay-in, but most of it looks like colored pencils or pastel pencils (which would explain the pastel colors).
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 07:03:22 PM
Quote from: Pat on May 14, 2021, 06:36:15 PM
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 10:41:48 AM
This book is called "Viking Age" (not "Sexy Fantasy Vikings" or some such), and the art pieces on the front and back really give me a lot of confidence in this product.
At least they fixed the problem in their later books....
(https://www.rpg.net/pictures/show-pic.phtml?picid=11748)
(https://www.rpg.net/pictures/show-pic.phtml?picid=9323)
;D
maybe we could blur the titles and play a game of "guess what this book is about".
Has anyone read these? I wonder what the text is like.
I had 1 or 2 back in the day - the actual books were not great game writing, and incredibly dry and from I remember fairly well researched. Like someone liked that era of history, decided to cash in on gaming and added some bad game text and the cheesecake covers. In essence the exact opposite of what you would expect from the cover.
Quote from: Lord Mhoram on May 16, 2021, 12:04:45 PM
I had 1 or 2 back in the day - the actual books were not great game writing, and incredibly dry and from I remember fairly well researched. Like someone liked that era of history, decided to cash in on gaming and added some bad game text and the cheesecake covers. In essence the exact opposite of what you would expect from the cover.
I suspected as much, and that is to me the biggest sin here. If the books were about viking-strippers (kinda like bikini girls with machine guns), or some such it could have actually have been fun in a bad-taste kind of way.
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 10:41:48 AM
This book is called "Viking Age" (not "Sexy Fantasy Vikings" or some such), and the art pieces on the front and back really give me a lot of confidence in this product.
I would have picked up any book with that cover in a heart beat. :-)
Quote from: Pat on May 14, 2021, 10:28:21 PM
If you want awkward and Exalted...
I imagine her singing "I'm bringing booty back!"
Quote from: DocJones on May 16, 2021, 04:50:55 PM
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 10:41:48 AM
This book is called "Viking Age" (not "Sexy Fantasy Vikings" or some such), and the art pieces on the front and back really give me a lot of confidence in this product.
I would have picked up any book with that cover in a heart beat. :-)
I think Luis Royo might be a name you should know ;)
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 07:03:22 PM
Quote from: Pat on May 14, 2021, 06:36:15 PM
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 10:41:48 AM
This book is called "Viking Age" (not "Sexy Fantasy Vikings" or some such), and the art pieces on the front and back really give me a lot of confidence in this product.
At least they fixed the problem in their later books....
(https://www.rpg.net/pictures/show-pic.phtml?picid=11748)
(https://www.rpg.net/pictures/show-pic.phtml?picid=9323)
;D
maybe we could blur the titles and play a game of "guess what this book is about".
Has anyone read these? I wonder what the text is like.
I wouldn't be surprised if it contained rules for titfucking.
Quote from: Trond on May 16, 2021, 05:13:29 PM
Quote from: DocJones on May 16, 2021, 04:50:55 PM
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 10:41:48 AM
This book is called "Viking Age" (not "Sexy Fantasy Vikings" or some such), and the art pieces on the front and back really give me a lot of confidence in this product.
I would have picked up any book with that cover in a heart beat. :-)
I think Luis Royo might be a name you should know ;)
And he does appear on some rpg covers, the Swedish game Khelataar from the late 80s/early 90s. Of course the content was completely different. This cover is for an adventure that features the PCs going on an archaeological dig and dealing with saboteurs who want the expedition to leave their farmland alone, as well as a fraught political situation. Completely misleading cover for anyone seeking action-adventure with chicks in leather bathing suits.
(https://www.svenskarollspel.nu/wikia/images/thumb/0/0c/Khelataar_Wohlgoor_Fram.jpg/719px-Khelataar_Wohlgoor_Fram.jpg)
I don't have a problem with the art in the AD&D 2e reprints. They were the first D&D books I had, so not much to compare them to either. And the art was color throughout, which I was not used to at that time (all the other game books I had access to had black and white interior art).
Godlike on the other hand had some really shitty art, as did its sequel/spin-off Wild Talents. They were shitty in different ways though. Godlike (a game about superpowered people in WWII) had actual WWII photos with things liike a flying man awkwardly photoshopped in, ruining the composition of the photo. Wild Talents was a general supers game and its art fell into the "all lens flare all the time" school of art. Here's the cover.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ef/94/e3/ef94e324fef63700016e93cc6363581d.jpg)
I think that alien grey at the bottom may be the only figure who doesn't have their eyes obscured by shades or lens-flare in the entire book.
huh? Did not know Godlike actually saw print?
If its the same one I saw way back it actually had a comic in a gaming magazine. I'd have to dig to see if still have it and what magazine it was even in. Polyhedron?
Quote from: Omega on May 18, 2021, 11:13:25 AM
huh? Did not know Godlike actually saw print?
If its the same one I saw way back it actually had a comic in a gaming magazine. I'd have to dig to see if still have it and what magazine it was even in. Polyhedron?
Might be thinking of a different game. Godlike came out in 2001, and was a fairly notable release in an era when a lot of super hero RPGs were being published. It was set in an alternate WW2 where millions of "talents" fought on both sides of the war, used Stolze's One Roll Engine as the core mechanic, and the art that Blankman mentioned was real WW2 stills that Detwiller photoshopped with grainy things like flying men. A traditional comic doesn't really seem to fit.
Found the rather long add for Godlike in the 2003 issue of Poly after the d20m WWII setting. That has the photoshop art.
The comic saw might not be for it. But it was about WWII supers.
Rather surprised how many pages that ad took up. From experience magazine ad fees are not cheap! 4 pages! That probably cost anywhere from 800-1200$ at a guess.
And found another 4 page add in the 2002 poly. This one is actually not bad and might even have some art in it amongst the photo-renders.
Someone forked out alot of cash to promote this.
Aaand think found one. an even older 2002 issue of Poly. This one also 4 pages and actual art this time. Still not the one was thinking od but seems similar.
aaand pt2 Found it in an even older Poly and, yep, another 4 page comic. This one drawn as well.
Im noting a marked de-evolution of the art from the first ad to the last.
Found some images of the core book for Godlike and if that is any indicator then I am rather surprised that they did not use the better art style of the 2 comics or the 3rd ads better photo renders.
Someone threw alot of money into this if the page count and plethora of supplements is right. So why did they skimp on the illistrations? Weird.
Quote from: Omega on May 18, 2021, 02:30:43 PM
Found some images of the core book for Godlike and if that is any indicator then I am rather surprised that they did not use the better art style of the 2 comics or the 3rd ads better photo renders.
Someone threw alot of money into this if the page count and plethora of supplements is right. So why did they skimp on the illistrations? Weird.
Thats an indicator alright. All the interior art was made by Detwiller himself, so he probably skimped on illustrations in order to be able to do the ads.
The Halflings in the D&D 5E PHB look Silly, with those Tiny Feet; but I'm not "Offended" by it. I just think they look like Midgets. They have now given their player base Stats for Midgets, as a Playable Race in D&D 5E. Ha!!!
Greetings!
Geesus. So, what was wrong with the artwork for Halflings back in...3.5E or 3E? I'm thinking of the voluptuous redhead Halfling Rogue on a cover of Dragon Magazine, and as I recall, highlighted throughout various game books. She was smoking hot, and definitely put a different spin on how Halflings could look. Whenever I used that picture to show how a Halfling female could look like, it definitely opened up my player's imaginations and perspectives. There were also some dapper-looking male Halflings as well, and it got Halflings out of the "Fat Farmer" look that had generally prevailed as their appearance, at least in the minds of many players. I thought that whole period of artwork was meaningful, while maintaining older traditions, it still stretched margins and provided some scope for interesting differences.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 06:34:17 PMGeesus. So, what was wrong with the artwork for Halflings back in...3.5E or 3E? I'm thinking of the voluptuous redhead Halfling Rogue on a cover of Dragon Magazine, and as I recall, highlighted throughout various game books. She was smoking hot, and definitely put a different spin on how Halflings could look. ...
No kiddin'
http://www.jeffcarlisle.com/node/270
The modern moral crusaders would have a fit!
It was I believe the MM for 3 or 3.5e D&D that totally turned me off it after looking through a players book. I thought d20m Gamma World had bad art direction. This was somehow worse.
Both that MM and the d20GW MM look like both no one actually read the monster descriptions. And someone decided to assign the wrong people to do each piece. How the hell do you misuse Tim Trueman??? Oh, yeah. White Wolf. And that D&D MM looks like an advertisement for Anorexics-R-Us. ugh!
Quote from: Omega on May 18, 2021, 02:30:43 PM
Found some images of the core book for Godlike and if that is any indicator then I am rather surprised that they did not use the better art style of the 2 comics or the 3rd ads better photo renders.
Someone threw alot of money into this if the page count and plethora of supplements is right. So why did they skimp on the illistrations? Weird.
Because the person who did the illustrations was Dennis Detwiller, the author, who was obsessed with WW2 and wanted it to be authentic, and probably didn't get a lot of negative feedback because he basically self-published it (with friends), and had a lot of followers who thought he could do nothing wrong after Delta Green.
Why is it every other time I hear about or interact with Pagan Publishing or people related to it... its not in a good way?
Though regarding Godlike. It makes no sense to spend money on the comics and then toss it out. Unless they somehow lost the artist. Which might have been the case. Seen it happen before. Course maybe the photomanip art was intended all along and they just splurged on the initial two and a half spreads of ads with no intention of using it like they did some of the other add parts.
We will never know of course what went on.
Quote from: Godfather Punk on May 18, 2021, 06:47:20 PM
Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 06:34:17 PMGeesus. So, what was wrong with the artwork for Halflings back in...3.5E or 3E? I'm thinking of the voluptuous redhead Halfling Rogue on a cover of Dragon Magazine, and as I recall, highlighted throughout various game books. She was smoking hot, and definitely put a different spin on how Halflings could look. ...
No kiddin'
http://www.jeffcarlisle.com/node/270
The modern moral crusaders would have a fit!
I mean, Lidda was cool, but pretty much every other iconic adventurer (they had at least one for each class) looked like shit. Take the iconic sorcerer Hennet.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ra2K1vbIavc/Tt2MuIpeMQI/AAAAAAAAAng/azFphffQQFQ/s320/3e%2Bsorcerer.jpg)
Nice outfit made almost entirely of belts there guy.
Lidda meanwhile just looked like a human. You could only tell she was a halfling if she was standing next to a human or a dwarf (unless all those belts around her abdomen are there to hold her halfling gut in).
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/c27ccf96-f5ad-4557-b755-df61cefb1379/d4ywh0i-783fc7e8-596a-4b0a-b15c-a9b1aaa5b36f.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2MyN2NjZjk2LWY1YWQtNDU1Ny1iNzU1LWRmNjFjZWZiMTM3OVwvZDR5d2gwaS03ODNmYzdlOC01OTZhLTRiMGEtYjE1Yy1hOWIxYWFhNWIzNmYuanBnIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.1LqGPRQSRuLvlhc5p7ZCnQ9exv7Lbk5k2KokApBIQg4)
I can see why they wanted halflings to not just look like humans but half the size. It's just that they chose instead to make them look hideous and deformed a lot of the time. Of course this piece is also from the D&D 5 PHB, and the halfling in it looks fine, I think.
(https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/attachments/thumbnails/5/971/350/331/pickpocket.png)
Yes that pickpocket Halfling piece is pretty good really and one of the few exceptions to the rule in 5e.
Quote from: Omega on May 19, 2021, 03:00:53 AM
Yes that pickpocket Halfling piece is pretty good really and one of the few exceptions to the rule in 5e.
They've toned down the "big head, spindly legs" thing in releases after the PHB as well. This one from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes still shows the design element of a bigger head than normal, but otherwise isn't bad I think.
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/-R8JlWsPgVGVfm9_7ojfNT719m4=/0x0:1050x1425/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:1050x1425):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/10814359/Halflings1.png)
Yeah though theres still something off with it. Almost like he has no neck.
"The Book of Erotic Fantasy" for D&D 3E was unusually well written (IMHO of course) but the decision to use "classy photos" for the interior art was the very essence of "what were they thinking?" It still remains one of those gifts that always keep giving.
Quote from: Reckall on May 19, 2021, 05:56:45 AM
"The Book of Erotic Fantasy" for D&D 3E was unusually well written (IMHO of course) but the decision to use "classy photos" for the interior art was the very essence of "what were they thinking?" It still remains one of those gifts that always keep giving.
Yeah, that was certainly a ... choice. Agreed on both the text and the art.
Quote from: Blankman on May 19, 2021, 03:24:40 AM
Quote from: Omega on May 19, 2021, 03:00:53 AM
Yes that pickpocket Halfling piece is pretty good really and one of the few exceptions to the rule in 5e.
They've toned down the "big head, spindly legs" thing in releases after the PHB as well. This one from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes still shows the design element of a bigger head than normal, but otherwise isn't bad I think.
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/-R8JlWsPgVGVfm9_7ojfNT719m4=/0x0:1050x1425/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:1050x1425):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/10814359/Halflings1.png)
I'm left wondering what's actually happening here. Is he pleasantly surprised by the fish? 😀
I think he's throwing the heaviest fish back, making it skip 3 times.
Animal cruelty! :o
So this thread prompted me to make a post because something has been seriously bothering me about Old School Essentials, specifically a style of art prevalent throughout the book. The Peter Mullen stuff exudes the exact sort of atmosphere I would expect from a B/X-derived game (derived..? Exact replica?). Case in point, the DM's screen is pretty cool and gives me that melted weirdness of Erol Otus, exploring underground caverns and killing goblins for treasure. Contrast that with the image I attached...that is just NOT what I want to see. It is far too whimsical and reminds me of some kiddie bullshit. When I first started playing D&D way back when, I was indeed a kid, but fuck if I wanted to be treated like one. Who does this sort of art appeal to? I certainly do not like it whatsoever. Nope.
Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 06:34:17 PM
Greetings!
Geesus. So, what was wrong with the artwork for Halflings back in...3.5E or 3E? I'm thinking of the voluptuous redhead Halfling Rogue on a cover of Dragon Magazine, and as I recall, highlighted throughout various game books. She was smoking hot, and definitely put a different spin on how Halflings could look. Whenever I used that picture to show how a Halfling female could look like, it definitely opened up my player's imaginations and perspectives. There were also some dapper-looking male Halflings as well, and it got Halflings out of the "Fat Farmer" look that had generally prevailed as their appearance, at least in the minds of many players. I thought that whole period of artwork was meaningful, while maintaining older traditions, it still stretched margins and provided some scope for interesting differences.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Heh, I thought you meant this one, actually. http://www.larryelmore.com/store/TSHT/tsr--halfling-thief
The only way you could tell she was a halfling was by looking at the furnishings nearby.
Quote from: Trond on May 19, 2021, 09:38:28 AM
Quote from: Blankman on May 19, 2021, 03:24:40 AM
Quote from: Omega on May 19, 2021, 03:00:53 AM
Yes that pickpocket Halfling piece is pretty good really and one of the few exceptions to the rule in 5e.
They've toned down the "big head, spindly legs" thing in releases after the PHB as well. This one from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes still shows the design element of a bigger head than normal, but otherwise isn't bad I think.
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/-R8JlWsPgVGVfm9_7ojfNT719m4=/0x0:1050x1425/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:1050x1425):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/10814359/Halflings1.png)
I'm left wondering what's actually happening here. Is he pleasantly surprised by the fish? 😀
He's killing a troll by skipping a fish at it. It illustrates a Halfling poem about how the Fishskipper family got its name. Just a bit of color in the section on Halfling culture.
Quote from: Brad on May 19, 2021, 09:48:54 AM
So this thread prompted me to make a post because something has been seriously bothering me about Old School Essentials, specifically a style of art prevalent throughout the book. The Peter Mullen stuff exudes the exact sort of atmosphere I would expect from a B/X-derived game (derived..? Exact replica?). Case in point, the DM's screen is pretty cool and gives me that melted weirdness of Erol Otus, exploring underground caverns and killing goblins for treasure. Contrast that with the image I attached...that is just NOT what I want to see. It is far too whimsical and reminds me of some kiddie bullshit. When I first started playing D&D way back when, I was indeed a kid, but fuck if I wanted to be treated like one. Who does this sort of art appeal to? I certainly do not like it whatsoever. Nope.
(https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/what-were-they-thinking-the-rpg-art-cringe-thread-d/?action=dlattach;attach=2131;image)
Something tells me that skulls are a special thing of the character on the left.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 19, 2021, 09:54:25 AM
Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 06:34:17 PM
Greetings!
Geesus. So, what was wrong with the artwork for Halflings back in...3.5E or 3E? I'm thinking of the voluptuous redhead Halfling Rogue on a cover of Dragon Magazine, and as I recall, highlighted throughout various game books. She was smoking hot, and definitely put a different spin on how Halflings could look. Whenever I used that picture to show how a Halfling female could look like, it definitely opened up my player's imaginations and perspectives. There were also some dapper-looking male Halflings as well, and it got Halflings out of the "Fat Farmer" look that had generally prevailed as their appearance, at least in the minds of many players. I thought that whole period of artwork was meaningful, while maintaining older traditions, it still stretched margins and provided some scope for interesting differences.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Heh, I thought you meant this one, actually. http://www.larryelmore.com/store/TSHT/tsr--halfling-thief
The only way you could tell she was a halfling was by looking at the furnishings nearby.
Greetings!
Yeah, my friend! That was the main picture I was thinking of! She is smoking hot! Loved her as a Halfling!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on May 19, 2021, 11:58:57 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 19, 2021, 09:54:25 AM
Quote from: SHARK on May 18, 2021, 06:34:17 PM
Greetings!
Geesus. So, what was wrong with the artwork for Halflings back in...3.5E or 3E? I'm thinking of the voluptuous redhead Halfling Rogue on a cover of Dragon Magazine, and as I recall, highlighted throughout various game books. She was smoking hot, and definitely put a different spin on how Halflings could look. Whenever I used that picture to show how a Halfling female could look like, it definitely opened up my player's imaginations and perspectives. There were also some dapper-looking male Halflings as well, and it got Halflings out of the "Fat Farmer" look that had generally prevailed as their appearance, at least in the minds of many players. I thought that whole period of artwork was meaningful, while maintaining older traditions, it still stretched margins and provided some scope for interesting differences.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Heh, I thought you meant this one, actually. http://www.larryelmore.com/store/TSHT/tsr--halfling-thief
The only way you could tell she was a halfling was by looking at the furnishings nearby.
Greetings!
Yeah, my friend! That was the main picture I was thinking of! She is smoking hot! Loved her as a Halfling!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Elmore's art often drew on actual models for faces and posing. It always amuses me when someone insists that the proportions or poses are unrealistic.
This one I remember quite fondly as it nicely mixes 'pretty' and 'bad ass'.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0149/6074/files/elmore-cleric-basic-red-box-d-and-d_grande.png)
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 19, 2021, 12:11:12 PM
Elmore's art often drew on actual models for faces and posing. It always amuses me when someone insists that the proportions or poses are unrealistic.
I have seen people drawing nudes very competently from life and being criticized for "unrealistic breasts". In some circles pretty="unrealistic".
Quote from: Godfather Punk on May 19, 2021, 09:46:25 AM
I think he's throwing the heaviest fish back, making it skip 3 times.
Animal cruelty! :o
Pretty much!
The only other explanation is he hit the fish with a skipped rock. But since no rock is shown and it makes little sense. The whole thing makes little sense. And its still another deformed halfling.
Quote from: Omega on May 19, 2021, 12:46:23 PM
Quote from: Godfather Punk on May 19, 2021, 09:46:25 AM
I think he's throwing the heaviest fish back, making it skip 3 times.
Animal cruelty! :o
Pretty much!
The only other explanation is he hit the fish with a skipped rock. But since no rock is shown and it makes little sense. The whole thing makes little sense. And its still another deformed halfling.
No, he's killing a troll with a fish.
Quote from: Brad on May 19, 2021, 09:48:54 AM
So this thread prompted me to make a post because something has been seriously bothering me about Old School Essentials, specifically a style of art prevalent throughout the book. The Peter Mullen stuff exudes the exact sort of atmosphere I would expect from a B/X-derived game (derived..? Exact replica?). Case in point, the DM's screen is pretty cool and gives me that melted weirdness of Erol Otus, exploring underground caverns and killing goblins for treasure. Contrast that with the image I attached...that is just NOT what I want to see. It is far too whimsical and reminds me of some kiddie bullshit. When I first started playing D&D way back when, I was indeed a kid, but fuck if I wanted to be treated like one. Who does this sort of art appeal to? I certainly do not like it whatsoever. Nope.
Id say its both emulating Erol's style. But also harkens to a particular style Otus shared with a few other illustrators like Barbra Remington who did the covers for one Lord of the Rings set and Peter Cross who did covers for other books
The second piece is emulating Fighting Fantasy and old Games Workshop art feels. Or at least has a similar style.
Quote from: Blankman on May 19, 2021, 12:56:57 PM
Quote from: Omega on May 19, 2021, 12:46:23 PM
Quote from: Godfather Punk on May 19, 2021, 09:46:25 AM
I think he's throwing the heaviest fish back, making it skip 3 times.
Animal cruelty! :o
Pretty much!
The only other explanation is he hit the fish with a skipped rock. But since no rock is shown and it makes little sense. The whole thing makes little sense. And its still another deformed halfling.
No, he's killing a troll with a fish.
Wait! That if this is a halfling sorcerer who is turning people into fish and then using them as ammunition to kill trolls? Note the fishing pole and fish in the background. This maniac emptied a whole village for his troll killing!
Horror!
Quote from: Blankman on May 19, 2021, 10:17:40 AM
Quote from: Trond on May 19, 2021, 09:38:28 AM
I'm left wondering what's actually happening here. Is he pleasantly surprised by the fish? 😀
He's killing a troll by skipping a fish at it. It illustrates a Halfling poem about how the Fishskipper family got its name. Just a bit of color in the section on Halfling culture.
That explains the way he's positioned and all, but it leaves so many new questions :D
How do you kill a troll with a fish? Why did the fish have to skip on the water to kill the troll? Why is the dude laughing?
EDIT: and why are we seeing it from the troll's perspective? I don't like the implication here ;D
Quote from: Trond on May 19, 2021, 11:36:47 AMSomething tells me that skulls are a special thing of the character on the left.
Yes, very edgy. And stupid.
Quote from: Omega on May 19, 2021, 01:13:07 PMId say its both emulating Erol's style. But also harkens to a particular style Otus shared with a few other illustrators like Barbra Remington who did the covers for one Lord of the Rings set and Peter Cross who did covers for other books
No disagreement; it's both like Otus and also somewhat distinct. I think it captures B/X fairly well.
QuoteThe second piece is emulating Fighting Fantasy and old Games Workshop art feels. Or at least has a similar style.
I dunno, whenever I think of WFRP it's usually bigass beaded dwarves cleaving orc skulls with giant axes, it's not THAT.
Quote from: Trond on May 19, 2021, 01:37:07 PM
Quote from: Blankman on May 19, 2021, 10:17:40 AM
Quote from: Trond on May 19, 2021, 09:38:28 AM
I'm left wondering what's actually happening here. Is he pleasantly surprised by the fish? 😀
He's killing a troll by skipping a fish at it. It illustrates a Halfling poem about how the Fishskipper family got its name. Just a bit of color in the section on Halfling culture.
That explains the way he's positioned and all, but it leaves so many new questions :D
How do you kill a troll with a fish? Why did the fish have to skip on the water to kill the troll? Why is the dude laughing?
EDIT: and why are we seeing it from the troll's perspective? I don't like the implication here ;D
I don't know man, I just work here. But here's the poem in full, from page 101 of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes.
From the gentle waters
Amid the swaying reeds,
There rose a hairy villain,
A troll called Snobble Sweed.
He came to gobble children,
To line his lair with bones,
And pick his teeth with talons,
And grind their flesh with stones.
But on that day a-fishing
Was a halfling brave and true,
The first of the Fishskippers,
Grand-kin to me and you.
When he saw old Snobble Sweed
A-sharpening his knives,
He knew that all his family's folk
Were in danger of their lives.
In that moment of great peril,
Fishskipper caught a bream
And hurled it by its silvery tail
Across the glassy stream.
Ten times the bream did swiftly skip,
And like a clap of thunder
It smote old Sweed upon his head,
And tore the beast asunder
- "Tale of the Fishskippers," by Harkin Fishskipper
Quote from: Valatar on May 15, 2021, 02:16:45 PM
When Monte Cook reprinted Arcana Unearthed as Arcana Evolved, he included an artist with just horrible art. So I submit this example:
(https://writeups.letsyouandhimfight.com/images/012d76dea4dd5686ba18c86c4c1ef6af0f00a6a2d7457d9c7e287f9121b373fe.png)
This in a core rulebook, full-color, $50 (at the time that was pricey).
I actually kind of like those. They set a certain tone for the game, kind of retro, looks a bit like something out of a medieval bestiary.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 19, 2021, 12:11:12 PM
Elmore's art often drew on actual models for faces and posing. It always amuses me when someone insists that the proportions or poses are unrealistic.
This one I remember quite fondly as it nicely mixes 'pretty' and 'bad ass'.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0149/6074/files/elmore-cleric-basic-red-box-d-and-d_grande.png)
Elmore's art in the Basic Set (Red Box) gave me the inspiration for all the first wave of NPCs I ever created. He had a knack for giving
personality to the characters he draw (including this one): you just felt that there was a story behind them.
(https://filmgoblin.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/DD-Party-1024x678.jpg)
BTW (and totally OT), remember the possibly most famous "Dragonlance Illustration" of them all?
(https://www.enworld.org/attachments/elmore_companions-jpg.112277/)
It was done in ten days with an "all hands on deck!" approach. The DL staff of artists themselves worked as improvised models. The story includes actual pictures of the guys in the mid-80s "posing" as the various characters. You can see how the production level of the whole affair was below an high-school play - but they pulled it off. That was true commitment ;D
https://www.enworld.org/threads/larry-elmore-on-composing-the-companions-of-the-lance-art.666119/
Quote from: Brad on May 19, 2021, 01:40:44 PMI dunno, whenever I think of WFRP it's usually bigass beaded dwarves cleaving orc skulls with giant axes, it's not THAT.
Old and even not so old GW art was by the same artist who did alot of the FF books. I'd have to look up the name but some of his colour art is in the same style. Been ages.
Quote from: Blankman on May 19, 2021, 01:49:42 PM
Ten times the bream did swiftly skip,
And like a clap of thunder
It smote old Sweed upon his head,
And tore the beast asunder[/i]
- "Tale of the Fishskippers," by Harkin Fishskipper[/center]
Good lord you are right! Ok, that makes the piece, while still hideous, at least awesomely hideous.
It even looks a bit like a Bream.
All this and nobody's discussing Battletech and some of its... uh... stranger choices for uniforms?
(My personal favorite is still the Clan Hell's Horses crewman who's wearing platform boots and a weird full-face mask.)
Much of the art from the core GURPS 4th edition books tends towards poor but in particular, GURPS Magic for 4th edition. Pick any piece from in there and almost without exception, it will be embarrassingly bad.
I understand why SJG wanted to go full-color with everything 4th Ed, but most of the new art is just ugly and uninspired. It's pretty disappointing to me since I loved all the unobtrusive but creative Dan Smith (smif) art that permeated the 3rd edition books (and as an added bonus, the sheer bulk of art he contributed provided 3rd edition with a visual+stylistic consistency that 4th edition art simply doesn't even come close to achieving).
All that being said, most of the GURPS line has cover art ranging from acceptable to pretty good, and occasionally great. So at least they mostly got that part right.
This one?
(https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/f/fd/Clan_Hell%27s_Horses_Warrior.jpg?timestamp=20100404232210)
If its a tank pilot then the helmet makes sense. Probably from the "VR Enhancment" spillover from the cartoon. The platforms could be just a style to emulate hooves. Or maybee they have some funky purpose? Krenskey liked Disco and it never died?
Quote from: Omega on May 20, 2021, 03:32:56 PMThe platforms could be just a style to emulate hooves. Or maybee they have some funky purpose? Krenskey liked Disco and it never died?
That made me laugh.
I thought he was too short to reach the pedals without an assist. Of course both could be true.
Quote from: Omega on May 20, 2021, 03:32:56 PM
This one?
(https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/f/fd/Clan_Hell%27s_Horses_Warrior.jpg?timestamp=20100404232210)
If its a tank pilot then the helmet makes sense. Probably from the "VR Enhancment" spillover from the cartoon. The platforms could be just a style to emulate hooves. Or maybee they have some funky purpose? Krenskey liked Disco and it never died?
That's the one. LOL. The crested helmet at least makes SOME sense, but platform boots? Seriously?
Quote from: Omega on May 20, 2021, 03:32:56 PM
This one?
(https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/f/fd/Clan_Hell%27s_Horses_Warrior.jpg?timestamp=20100404232210)
If its a tank pilot then the helmet makes sense. Probably from the "VR Enhancment" spillover from the cartoon. The platforms could be just a style to emulate hooves. Or maybee they have some funky purpose? Krenskey liked Disco and it never died?
My head immediately went here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhO_jnKl4pk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhO_jnKl4pk)
Wasn't there also a Star Wars sourcebook with some absolutely clumsy art on the cover? I seem to remember caharacters running up some stairs with light sabers or something.
Quote from: Antiquation! on May 20, 2021, 03:26:39 PM
Much of the art from the core GURPS 4th edition books tends towards poor but in particular, GURPS Magic for 4th edition. Pick any piece from in there and almost without exception, it will be embarrassingly bad.
So at least they mostly got that part right.
I think 4e got the art 90% right. GURPS should have clean, realistic, believable art. But on Magic, I'm pretty sure they just said "people will buy this for the rules or they won't buy it at all. The art is irrelevant to sales of the book in question."
Quote from: David Johansen on May 20, 2021, 07:23:25 PM
Quote from: Antiquation! on May 20, 2021, 03:26:39 PM
Much of the art from the core GURPS 4th edition books tends towards poor but in particular, GURPS Magic for 4th edition. Pick any piece from in there and almost without exception, it will be embarrassingly bad.
So at least they mostly got that part right.
I think 4e got the art 90% right. GURPS should have clean, realistic, believable art. But on Magic, I'm pretty sure they just said "people will buy this for the rules or they won't buy it at all. The art is irrelevant to sales of the book in question."
I really like Gurps 4e. I prefer it for any genre game. I think the art is terrible. Every so often I see a bit of art that looks pretty good, but wow, some of it is just really dull. I guess that is the real issue, it doesnt do much to inspire an idea, or if a random person picked up the book and flipped through it, a hook of some kind. I think the art is not good. All my players think it is not good. I thought DF was a definite uptick in the art, and it has been a while since I have been through every book (I have every hardback book, except Thaumatology, I got it in soft back) so maybe my memory is jaded.
Quote from: Trond on May 20, 2021, 07:14:18 PM
Wasn't there also a Star Wars sourcebook with some absolutely clumsy art on the cover? I seem to remember caharacters running up some stairs with light sabers or something.
Player's Guide to Tapani
Looks like some of Holloways paintings. Or another RPG artist with that style. Some of his body placements were... off... to say the least.
Odds are that is one of Doug Shulers pieces. He did some for Dragon Storm too.
Quote from: Pat on May 14, 2021, 06:36:15 PM
Quote from: Trond on May 14, 2021, 10:41:48 AM
This book is called "Viking Age" (not "Sexy Fantasy Vikings" or some such), and the art pieces on the front and back really give me a lot of confidence in this product.
At least they fixed the problem in their later books....
(https://www.rpg.net/pictures/show-pic.phtml?picid=11748)
(https://www.rpg.net/pictures/show-pic.phtml?picid=9323)
;D
If you go there:
http://www.avalanchepress.com/valhalla.php
...and scroll down, after the list of out of print wargames, you can find thumbnails of all this series of books and a description for each one of them. The artist was a certain Lorenzo Sperlonga. The owner of the company is the infamous Mike Bennighof, holder of a doctorate in history from Emory University.
"Infamous" because of the excellent ideas that he had for his wargame lines - and by how he always torpedoes himself with shoddy manuals, poor playtesting and sheer ineptitude (when he was finally convinced to create VASSAL modules for his games he forced the player to "buy" them for $0 from his site, instead of just loading them on the VASSAL site
like every other fucking wargame and boardgame company does).
Anyway, their 3E line was actually an unexpected success - with editions in other languages and stuff - and, Mike being Mike, sent the company into deep trouble when the 3E bubble burst and no other plans were in place. Somehow, they survived.
Quote from: David Johansen on May 20, 2021, 07:23:25 PM
Quote from: Antiquation! on May 20, 2021, 03:26:39 PM
Much of the art from the core GURPS 4th edition books tends towards poor but in particular, GURPS Magic for 4th edition. Pick any piece from in there and almost without exception, it will be embarrassingly bad.
So at least they mostly got that part right.
I think 4e got the art 90% right. GURPS should have clean, realistic, believable art. But on Magic, I'm pretty sure they just said "people will buy this for the rules or they won't buy it at all. The art is irrelevant to sales of the book in question."
It wouldn't hurt it to be good art though. Most of the new art for the edition is bland and uninspired. All the good pieces seem to be recycled from earlier editions.
From Hunter: The Vigil.
(https://i.redd.it/lphor5y8gyo11.jpg)
There was also the Valkyrie agent with an Aliens Pulse Rifle.
Quote from: Snark Knight on May 22, 2021, 09:12:24 AM
From Hunter: The Vigil.
(https://i.redd.it/lphor5y8gyo11.jpg)
There was also the Valkyrie agent with an Aliens Pulse Rifle.
Who made the original image?
I'm surprised we don't see more obvious examples of tracing.
Cyberpunk 2020 had some tracing from Masamune Shirows Appleseed being one of the few I've spotted.
I honestly wonder about the legality of it. The majority of the version on the left is clearly just a few photoshop filters away from the version on the right, but there is nevertheless some artistic effort in making it B&W, how the contrast was controlled, trimming out the background, replacing the weapon, adding buttons, etc. This probably took a few hours to get right even if it's recognizably based on the source.
If Duchamp can get away with drawing a moustache on a reproduction of Mona Lisa (https://www.wikiart.org/en/marcel-duchamp/l-h-o-o-q-mona-lisa-with-moustache-1919) it's hard for me to see this as any less unique of a work.
The legal principle of following that guideline is pretty indefensible to me though. This implies I could take an entire movie and flip it upside down and put a watermark on it saying "R.Mutt" and have this qualify as an original work. I have a feeling that movie studio execs would be less intrigued by the artistic statement this type of art would make, and more inclined to sue your ass off and try to put you in prison.
Quote from: Trond on May 22, 2021, 09:51:24 AM
Quote from: Snark Knight on May 22, 2021, 09:12:24 AM
From Hunter: The Vigil.
(https://i.redd.it/lphor5y8gyo11.jpg)
There was also the Valkyrie agent with an Aliens Pulse Rifle.
Who made the original image?
Capcom, the video game company, owns the original. Its a promotional image for Devil May Cry 3
Avalon Hill's Powers and Perils was infamous for cribbing Frank Frazzetta's art.
Quote from: Snark Knight on May 22, 2021, 09:12:24 AM
From Hunter: The Vigil.
(https://i.redd.it/lphor5y8gyo11.jpg)
There was also the Valkyrie agent with an Aliens Pulse Rifle.
What the fuck? I'm surprised Capcom didn't land on them with both feet. That's pretty damned blatant tracing/copying.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 22, 2021, 12:32:04 PM
What the fuck? I'm surprised Capcom didn't land on them with both feet. That's pretty damned blatant tracing/copying.
Not sure exactly when this was published, but lets say late-90s. Capcom in the late 90s being a Japanese videogame publisher with little exposure to the US, did they know or care about an image published in a second-tier RPG book?
Did White Wolf even know this art they licensed was taken from Devil May Cry? Probably not. So then the legal responsibility falls on the artist. What sort of damages can Capcom recoup from the artist? Probably not much.
That's assuming the artist can't win the argument that it's an original piece of work based on the transformative nature of the changes he made. Leibovitz v. Paramount Pictures Corp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibovitz_v._Paramount_Pictures_Corp.) for example.
White Wolf has a history of 'borrowing' stuff from other sources. Usually fairly subtle. That one on the other hand is pretty blatant.
Looks like someone ran the original image through a filter then drew or photoshopped in extras.
It could be a really good freehand though. Its a pretty common practice method. Still should not be used for commercial work.
Ok. Did a quick comparison and its one-for-one the same so thats not a freehand. Its been edited to be sure with bits added in. But the core is most likely the original piece run through a filter. Like how some of the Godlike comics were. Just ineptly.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 22, 2021, 12:32:04 PM
What the fuck? I'm surprised Capcom didn't land on them with both feet. That's pretty damned blatant tracing/copying.
Well, it's not like there isn't precedent going the other way ...
(https://dtrpg-public-files.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/images/44/17527-thumb140.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/36/Castlevania_2_cover.png)
I ran the piece through a simple editor like GIMP and just played with the thresholds and got pretty much the same image so yeah its not even drawn.
The castlevania one though isnt a copy. They just obviously used Ravenloft as a pose reference. Probably same for the guy in the foreground.
Cant find the thread now but there was a TSR artist who used refferences from movies ALOT.
Theres alot of that actually.
Quote from: Zelen on May 22, 2021, 02:39:26 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 22, 2021, 12:32:04 PM
What the fuck? I'm surprised Capcom didn't land on them with both feet. That's pretty damned blatant tracing/copying.
Not sure exactly when this was published, but lets say late-90s. Capcom in the late 90s being a Japanese videogame publisher with little exposure to the US, did they know or care about an image published in a second-tier RPG book?
Did White Wolf even know this art they licensed was taken from Devil May Cry? Probably not. So then the legal responsibility falls on the artist. What sort of damages can Capcom recoup from the artist? Probably not much.
That's assuming the artist can't win the argument that it's an original piece of work based on the transformative nature of the changes he made. Leibovitz v. Paramount Pictures Corp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibovitz_v._Paramount_Pictures_Corp.) for example.
This incident happened in 2008, just after Hunter: The Vigil was published. The SHTF on Big Purple. If memory serves: White Wolf had their lawyers contact Capcom's lawyers. They said that the artist was a freelancer hired to do one piece (rather than an employee) and they had no idea that he had plagiarized. They said they would replace that piece in future printings and never use the artist again.
Not sure what came of it.
I have a copy. H:TV is an underrated game, btw. Probably my favorite of the NWoD.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2d/56/41/2d5641e3ba75b550f6c25f52fc03cb96.jpg)
this is garbage art and you know it
Quote from: This Guy on May 24, 2021, 12:03:40 AM
this is garbage art and you know it
That image makes me laugh: like the beholder is doing a 4th-wall with the viewer and saying "really?"
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on May 24, 2021, 01:05:04 AM
Quote from: This Guy on May 24, 2021, 12:03:40 AM
this is garbage art and you know it
That image makes me laugh: like the beholder is doing a 4th-wall with the viewer and saying "really?"
"look guys i'm just as embarrassed as you are but trust me the book's good stick with it"
All I see is a beholder giving the reader a sultry look.
"I'm a sexy, sexy beholder. Look at my big anti-magic ray."
Eyes up here bub.
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on May 24, 2021, 01:05:04 AM
Quote from: This Guy on May 24, 2021, 12:03:40 AM
this is garbage art and you know it
That image makes me laugh: like the beholder is doing a 4th-wall with the viewer and saying "really?"
"Shut up, they're paying good money and the rent is due at the end of the month."
Yeah, some of the early art wasn't so much cringe as it was janky as hell.
Quote from: Zelen on May 22, 2021, 02:39:26 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 22, 2021, 12:32:04 PM
What the fuck? I'm surprised Capcom didn't land on them with both feet. That's pretty damned blatant tracing/copying.
Not sure exactly when this was published, but lets say late-90s. Capcom in the late 90s being a Japanese videogame publisher with little exposure to the US, did they know or care about an image published in a second-tier RPG book?
Did White Wolf even know this art they licensed was taken from Devil May Cry? Probably not. So then the legal responsibility falls on the artist. What sort of damages can Capcom recoup from the artist? Probably not much.
That's assuming the artist can't win the argument that it's an original piece of work based on the transformative nature of the changes he made. Leibovitz v. Paramount Pictures Corp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibovitz_v._Paramount_Pictures_Corp.) for example.
lol try 2005 at the hight of capcoms might on the ps2 as an A list publisher developer and well established in the usa as they had been since the the mid 90s.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 24, 2021, 08:22:12 AM
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on May 24, 2021, 01:05:04 AM
Quote from: This Guy on May 24, 2021, 12:03:40 AM
this is garbage art and you know it
That image makes me laugh: like the beholder is doing a 4th-wall with the viewer and saying "really?"
"Shut up, they're paying good money and the rent is due at the end of the month."
Yeah, some of the early art wasn't so much cringe as it was janky as hell.
Jank just sounds like cringe but you like it or the SOUL/SOULLESS divide of /tg/ but all right fine fine, tastes subjective
since we already got encephalitic halflings galore how about tiny-headed Elric or muppet Owlbear
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5d/93/67/5d93677f102201c372db9c1f24abbba5.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/17/Owlbear.JPG)
Quote from: This Guy on May 24, 2021, 11:14:55 AMsince we already got encephalitic halflings galore how about tiny-headed Elric or muppet Owlbear
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5d/93/67/5d93677f102201c372db9c1f24abbba5.jpg)
Poor Elric just can't seem to get his...boots to stay up. Seems like the Melniboneans would have a way to fix that.
Are they his boots, really big spatz, or bellbottoms?
All of the above?
Quote from: Trond on May 19, 2021, 12:17:56 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 19, 2021, 12:11:12 PM
Elmore's art often drew on actual models for faces and posing. It always amuses me when someone insists that the proportions or poses are unrealistic.
I have seen people drawing nudes very competently from life and being criticized for "unrealistic breasts". In some circles pretty="unrealistic".
I always thought Boris Vallejo's paintings were idealistic and unrealistic until I met one of his models (she was an 11).
Quote from: DocJones on May 24, 2021, 11:05:03 PM
I always thought Boris Vallejo's paintings were idealistic and unrealistic until I met one of his models (she was an 11).
Absolutely. I used to know a gal who modeled for Elmore (sans big hair). Strange how a particular strain of "art critique" seems uniquely targeted against beautiful women by envious people.
Quote from: Zelen on May 24, 2021, 11:59:39 PM
Quote from: DocJones on May 24, 2021, 11:05:03 PM
I always thought Boris Vallejo's paintings were idealistic and unrealistic until I met one of his models (she was an 11).
Absolutely. I used to know a gal who modeled for Elmore (sans big hair). Strange how a particular strain of "art critique" seems uniquely targeted against beautiful women by envious people.
There's a theory I've seen that those people (usually also well marinated in wokeist thought) actively hate beauty -- whether it's people, architecture, or anything else. Because they've never gotten over their ugly-duckling days in high school.
Quote from: Omega on May 24, 2021, 09:56:38 PM
Are they his boots, really big spatz, or bellbottoms?
All of the above?
To me they look like badly drawn cavalier boots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalier_boots). If not badly drawn, then the cobbler used leather that needed some serious stiffening.
I think Dee may have been going for something like this. I would think a boot like that could be pulled all the way down even? And wayyyyyyy back there were these sort of rain covers for shoes that could be folded all the way down. (but werent supposed to be.)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LpcgKADFY8w/VvxbNJh1FCI/AAAAAAAAUtI/O9DniYTukNwkghNH4ecMi3zFUMT-tAjbw/s1600/528.jpg)
Yes. Those are a type of cavalier boots. I don't think they were ever intended to roll down until they look like 1970s bell bottoms. I've seen a lot of period paintings, reconstructions, and whatnot of those style boots. I've never seen one like those drawn and I've no reason to assume the artist was more knowledgeable.
I doubt they are supposed to correlate to anything real. They could be really stylized spatz. Oddly enough I have an old action figure from around the same time with shoe covers like that too, just not as pronounced.
But a quick search of his art and came across two other pieces where he draws characters with long boots folded really far down. Not as far as in that piece. But he seems to return to the idea now and then.
And hey, its Elric right? Who is going to tell him he can not roll down short boots too? 8)
Quote from: Bren on May 27, 2021, 02:27:48 AM
Yes. Those are a type of cavalier boots. I don't think they were ever intended to roll down until they look like 1970s bell bottoms. I've seen a lot of period paintings, reconstructions, and whatnot of those style boots. I've never seen one like those drawn and I've no reason to assume the artist was more knowledgeable.
It might have been the artist, but when this sort of thing has occurred for me it almost always the art direction (i.e. I give the artist a not so great example of the item of clothing in question and that causes the sketch or final version to look off---most artists I have worked with are happy to adjust this kind of mistake at the sketching phase if you catch it). Also possible, like you suggest, they were trying to give the character a bell bottom vibe or something (but maybe just go all the way and give them bell bottoms or bell bottom like clothing if that is the case). But this is really easy to mess up. If an artist isn't familiar with the clothing in question and you provide one example to them, and that example is taken at an odd angle, is quirky in any way, or just not well done, that cause something like this easily. I try to give a bunch of examples when I can to avoid this. I would imagine cavalier boots now are pretty easy to find tons of images for. At that time though they would have to have manually searched through books for examples or found actual boots to use as models. Might have been harder to find something stellar, or to find multiple examples.
As someone who had to try and gather information on armor and clothing there's no doubt in my mind bedrock is on point. My library system has neat nothing on arms and armor and only slightly more in medieval and Renaissance clothing with out the internet I would have a neat zero set of referance material. There is a very good bet that the artist was in a similar position.
There were extended arguments about legitimacy or even existence of banded mail, forty years ago. I think you're onto something here, kosmos :)
Good point ring mail is another artistic licence can also be a big part of decifering old texts and art.
Makes me wonder what mistakes will be made by historians a few thousand years from now. "The ak was slow and inaccurate especially so compared to modern directed energy weaponry". "Only the true an 47 was any good all the others where steps back".
I can see ww1 and ww2 tech getting blended together easly enough given the wars where so close.
Quote from: kosmos1214 on May 27, 2021, 08:18:51 AM
Good point ring mail is another artistic licence can also be a big part of decifering old texts and art.
Makes me wonder what mistakes will be made by historians a few thousand years from now. "The ak was slow and inaccurate especially so compared to modern directed energy weaponry". "Only the true an 47 was any good all the others where steps back".
I can see ww1 and ww2 tech getting blended together easly enough given the wars where so close.
You don't have to go that far into the future. Look at some of the sillier memes revolving around modern firearms nowadays. I'm sure Shark knows a few of 'em.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:26:57 AM
Quote from: kosmos1214 on May 27, 2021, 08:18:51 AM
Good point ring mail is another artistic licence can also be a big part of decifering old texts and art.
Makes me wonder what mistakes will be made by historians a few thousand years from now. "The ak was slow and inaccurate especially so compared to modern directed energy weaponry". "Only the true an 47 was any good all the others where steps back".
I can see ww1 and ww2 tech getting blended together easly enough given the wars where so close.
You don't have to go that far into the future. Look at some of the sillier memes revolving around modern firearms nowadays. I'm sure Shark knows a few of 'em.
I'm not an aquatic eating machine, but there's the persistent myth that the ar-15 jams constantly. Amongst some Marines there was also the myth that the M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon jams a lot. Theirs did indeed jam a lot, but that's because it needed to be replaced or refurbished, and the USMC uses things until the wheels fall off. Conversely US Army soldiers tend to love the SAW.
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 27, 2021, 08:00:17 AM
It might have been the artist, but when this sort of thing has occurred for me it almost always the art direction (i.e. I give the artist a not so great example of the item of clothing in question and that causes the sketch or final version to look off---most artists I have worked with are happy to adjust this kind of mistake at the sketching phase if you catch it).
From looking at Dee's other art with these pulldown boots I get the impression he just liked the idea and worked out his own variations and that Elric piece is a logical extension. If you can pull down long boots, why not short? Kids at that time were likely doing it with those boot bootie things that were a brief fad.
Quote from: horsesoldier on May 27, 2021, 09:57:00 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:26:57 AM
Quote from: kosmos1214 on May 27, 2021, 08:18:51 AM
Good point ring mail is another artistic licence can also be a big part of decifering old texts and art.
Makes me wonder what mistakes will be made by historians a few thousand years from now. "The ak was slow and inaccurate especially so compared to modern directed energy weaponry". "Only the true an 47 was any good all the others where steps back".
I can see ww1 and ww2 tech getting blended together easly enough given the wars where so close.
You don't have to go that far into the future. Look at some of the sillier memes revolving around modern firearms nowadays. I'm sure Shark knows a few of 'em.
I'm not an aquatic eating machine, but there's the persistent myth that the ar-15 jams constantly. Amongst some Marines there was also the myth that the M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon jams a lot. Theirs did indeed jam a lot, but that's because it needed to be replaced or refurbished, and the USMC uses things until the wheels fall off. Conversely US Army soldiers tend to love the SAW.
Also AKs aren't fundamentally inaccurate, that perception is largely based on the original caliber, which is kind of a big heavy slow round, very similar to 30-30, and was designed for knockdown at under 300 yards. More modern AKs chambered in 5.54x39 are on par with ARs for shooting out to 500 yards, though the AR generally has better iron sights, and better mounting setups for scopes.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dwyMxEEBnIk/VbqFSRetOsI/AAAAAAAAHXc/pawHsTRba74/s1600/2cg1kyt.jpg)
I'm surprised no one has posted one of based boy kevin's many visual abominations.
Quote from: ZetaRidley on May 27, 2021, 02:33:17 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dwyMxEEBnIk/VbqFSRetOsI/AAAAAAAAHXc/pawHsTRba74/s1600/2cg1kyt.jpg)
I'm surprised no one has posted one of based boy kevin's many visual abominations.
Probably because posting Palladium art is the equivalent of hunting over bait; waaaaay too easy :D
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 27, 2021, 08:00:17 AM
It might have been the artist, but when this sort of thing has occurred for me it almost always the art direction (i.e. I give the artist a not so great example of the item of clothing in question and that causes the sketch or final version to look off---most artists I have worked with are happy to adjust this kind of mistake at the sketching phase if you catch it). Also possible, like you suggest, they were trying to give the character a bell bottom vibe or something (but maybe just go all the way and give them bell bottoms or bell bottom like clothing if that is the case). But this is really easy to mess up. If an artist isn't familiar with the clothing in question and you provide one example to them, and that example is taken at an odd angle, is quirky in any way, or just not well done, that cause something like this easily. I try to give a bunch of examples when I can to avoid this. I would imagine cavalier boots now are pretty easy to find tons of images for. At that time though they would have to have manually searched through books for examples or found actual boots to use as models. Might have been harder to find something stellar, or to find multiple examples.
Not too hard to find.
(https://i2.wp.com/biffbampop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/00.jpg?resize=792%2C1021&ssl=1)
Almost any Jack Kirby depiction of Captain America would have done a better job of giving the artist a clue.
Heh, it was a product of the times and arguable a style. Not everyone can be a Neal Adams. :)
Quote from: ZetaRidley on May 27, 2021, 02:33:17 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dwyMxEEBnIk/VbqFSRetOsI/AAAAAAAAHXc/pawHsTRba74/s1600/2cg1kyt.jpg)
I'm surprised no one has posted one of based boy kevin's many visual abominations.
No one has because it is not a bad piece really. At worst some of the positioning of weapons is a fraction off. But otherwise that is a fairly good piece. Alot of Kevs work is pretty good really and leaps and bounds ahead of many other RPG artists. He has a better grasp of line and structure than Holloway for example. But they both sometimes flub it on perspecta.
Quote from: Bren on May 27, 2021, 04:54:36 PM
Almost any Jack Kirby depiction of Captain America would have done a better job of giving the artist a clue.
Or a John Byrne Cyclops
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/EqTtGMSM9BNBVzBgrJTxasSllgBC36UW7v5D5rdBgxonAMwapNLD3looaIl9Q2jPFn42JLVlgUFotHvWwdTTi0XGWgT9LZOUwqJmj-6bq1R1wflAY226ENWGNOcJVMdt2VLF8B58wAvpXA)
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:26:57 AM
Quote from: kosmos1214 on May 27, 2021, 08:18:51 AM
Good point ring mail is another artistic licence can also be a big part of decifering old texts and art.
Makes me wonder what mistakes will be made by historians a few thousand years from now. "The ak was slow and inaccurate especially so compared to modern directed energy weaponry". "Only the true an 47 was any good all the others where steps back".
I can see ww1 and ww2 tech getting blended together easly enough given the wars where so close.
You don't have to go that far into the future. Look at some of the sillier memes revolving around modern firearms nowadays. I'm sure Shark knows a few of 'em.
Greetings!
God yes, my friend! You know that's right! Some of the stupidest ideas that people have about guns. Geesus.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Bren on May 27, 2021, 04:54:36 PM
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 27, 2021, 08:00:17 AM
It might have been the artist, but when this sort of thing has occurred for me it almost always the art direction (i.e. I give the artist a not so great example of the item of clothing in question and that causes the sketch or final version to look off---most artists I have worked with are happy to adjust this kind of mistake at the sketching phase if you catch it). Also possible, like you suggest, they were trying to give the character a bell bottom vibe or something (but maybe just go all the way and give them bell bottoms or bell bottom like clothing if that is the case). But this is really easy to mess up. If an artist isn't familiar with the clothing in question and you provide one example to them, and that example is taken at an odd angle, is quirky in any way, or just not well done, that cause something like this easily. I try to give a bunch of examples when I can to avoid this. I would imagine cavalier boots now are pretty easy to find tons of images for. At that time though they would have to have manually searched through books for examples or found actual boots to use as models. Might have been harder to find something stellar, or to find multiple examples.
Not too hard to find.
(https://i2.wp.com/biffbampop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/00.jpg?resize=792%2C1021&ssl=1)
Almost any Jack Kirby depiction of Captain America would have done a better job of giving the artist a clue.
Yes, due to the internet. My point was at the time, whoever gave that artist the direction would have been limited to what materials they themselves had or could have directed the artist do view (because there was also the issue of you couldn't have just emailed an image back in the day). Perhaps cavalier boots are something easy to find even pre-internet. But to use your example, if it were me, I wouldn't have had any jack kirby images because I don't collect or read comics. I would have had whatever history books are on my shelf. This isn't an item I've ever given art directions on, so I am not sure the difficulty. The idea is just it isn't necessarily just the artist (and in this particular case, I don't know what direction it falls in). I do know even with the internet finding good model images is always one of the most difficult parts of art direction.
I think a primary source of inspiration before the arrival of the World Wide Web would have been movie costumes, and various magazines and reference books about movies. As well as the work of previous generations of fantasy artists.
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 28, 2021, 04:52:38 PM
Yes, due to the internet. My point was at the time, whoever gave that artist the direction would have been limited to what materials they themselves had or could have directed the artist do view (because there was also the issue of you couldn't have just emailed an image back in the day). Perhaps cavalier boots are something easy to find even pre-internet. But to use your example, if it were me, I wouldn't have had any jack kirby images because I don't collect or read comics. I would have had whatever history books are on my shelf. This isn't an item I've ever given art directions on, so I am not sure the difficulty. The idea is just it isn't necessarily just the artist (and in this particular case, I don't know what direction it falls in). I do know even with the internet finding good model images is always one of the most difficult parts of art direction.
I remember that god awful Elric picture, though I don't recall the exact year that appeared.
Certainly the internet makes it easy to quickly find lots of images without ever leaving your chair. And of course I already knew that the Captain America from 1960s and 1970s wore cavalier boots and that Jack Kirby was one of the artists then. To provide an example to an artist in that time one direct them to look at a comic book rack, which back then were in many local drug stores, and find a picture of Captain America or suggested a viewing of the popular 1973 movie The Three Musketeers (the Lester one) or it's sequel the following year (or any of the many other versions of the Three Musketeers or other cape & sword films that were aired on TV) and seen several pairs of cavalier boots. Failing that, the artist could check out the childrens' section of the local library for a picture book version of The Three Musketeers.
Or the artist could have used another artist's work for inspiration...like the boots on the cover of this paperback from 1976.
(http://www.isfdb.org/wiki/images/1/16/THSLRNTHSB1976.jpg)
They are not quite cavalier boots, but I think they are a much nicer design than the fugly bell-bottom boots.
Quote from: Lurkndog on May 28, 2021, 06:00:12 PM
I think a primary source of inspiration before the arrival of the World Wide Web would have been movie costumes, and various magazines and reference books about movies. As well as the work of previous generations of fantasy artists.
A good artist would have had and still has tons of reference books. Emphasis a good artist.
I'm actually surprised at how few of the images in this thread really make me cringe. C'mon people! (make that sound like Joe Biden :D )
Anyway, I couldn't find a larger version of this weird butt-pic that has often been commented on, from Powers & Perils.
(https://www.powersandperils.org/lands/cm_cover.png)
....not to mention this one. Why is the guy naked you ask? Because it's a poorly drawn rip-off of a Tarzan illustration by Frank Frazetta
(https://www.battlegrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/powersperils.png)
In the mid-'80s a Polish publishing house put out "Gondor", a mini-game created by Richard Berg about the Siege of Minas Tirith. That was a bit strange, since, under Communism, only "The Fellowship of the Ring" was officially translated in the Soviet Union and its sphere (amazing, I know, but that was the way it was).
Anyway, this is the art (by itself not even bad) on the instruction booklet for the first edition. Here we can see Eowyn "with her shield and her left arm broken, without her helmet, and just after she passed for a man..."
Notice how "the book was not available" is not the answer: there are too many elements from the original scene and the Lord of the Nazguls is cool. There were, however, photocopied, unauthorised, editions of the second and third book in the trilogy in the Communist countries (some of them translated by hand!) so, who knows what they kept and what they cut?
Anyway, the game was successful enough to warrant a second edition. They were even more unlucky with the art... It is easy, here, to see why Mordor lost.
Quote from: Reckall on June 02, 2021, 03:07:10 PM
Anyway, the game was successful enough to warrant a second edition. They were even more unlucky with the art... It is easy, here, to see why Mordor lost.
Now that's so bad it's laugh out loud funny. :D
Quote from: Reckall on June 02, 2021, 03:04:08 PM
In the mid-'80s a Polish publishing house put out "Gondor", a mini-game created by Richard Berg about the Siege of Minas Tirith. That was a bit strange, since, under Communism, only "The Fellowship of the Ring" was officially translated in the Soviet Union and its sphere (amazing, I know, but that was the way it was).
Anyway, this is the art (by itself not even bad) on the instruction booklet for the first edition. Here we can see Eowyn "with her shield and her left arm broken, without her helmet, and just after she passed for a man..."
Notice how "the book was not available" is not the answer: there are too many elements from the original scene and the Lord of the Nazguls is cool. There were, however, photocopied, unauthorised, editions of the second and third book in the trilogy in the Communist countries (some of them translated by hand!) so, who knows what they kept and what they cut?
Samizdata. Soviet dissidents circulated a LOT of banned books.
2nd that it's almost surprising at times what people could get a hold of to read and play not just dogs but video games movies tv shows especially in some of the less complain satilites like Poland.
Quote from: kosmos1214 on June 02, 2021, 05:29:31 PM
2nd that it's almost surprising at times what people could get a hold of to read and play not just dogs but video games movies tv shows especially in some of the less complain satilites like Poland.
Back in the mid-'90 I knew this Czech girl, Lenka, who was the daughter of an ex-member of the local KGB branch (I don't remember the name of the institution - it was not KGB). He worked for the division that read everything and decided what was fit for publishing in Czechoslovakia and what wasn't.
She told me that not only their cellar was full of "forbidden books", but that her father's friends freely came to copy and translate them. The Soviet authorities had a lot of peoples acting against them under their very noses, especially in the satellites.
Quote from: Reckall on June 02, 2021, 03:04:08 PM
In the mid-'80s a Polish publishing house put out "Gondor", a mini-game created by Richard Berg about the Siege of Minas Tirith. That was a bit strange, since, under Communism, only "The Fellowship of the Ring" was officially translated in the Soviet Union and its sphere (amazing, I know, but that was the way it was).
Anyway, this is the art (by itself not even bad) on the instruction booklet for the first edition. Here we can see Eowyn "with her shield and her left arm broken, without her helmet, and just after she passed for a man..."
Notice how "the book was not available" is not the answer: there are too many elements from the original scene and the Lord of the Nazguls is cool. There were, however, photocopied, unauthorised, editions of the second and third book in the trilogy in the Communist countries (some of them translated by hand!) so, who knows what they kept and what they cut?
That's actually a Frank Frazetta drawing
I did a comparison and the P&P one is a freehand using almost certainly the Frazetta piece as a reference for pose and musculature/shading. And used the panther for ideas to do the lizard.
Bemusingly I am pretty sure Frazetta got the idea for that pose from older art. Though he used live models alot for his references.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 02, 2021, 03:58:05 PM
Samizdata. Soviet dissidents circulated a LOT of banned books.
They also made bootleg records out of used X-Ray plates. Those things were badass.
https://www.x-rayaudio.com/x-rayaudiorecords/