Quote from: Cylonophile;409385Regaining ALL hitpoints after a short rest? (Nah, I'm cool with that shotgun blast to the chest, just lemme tape a little nap here...)

If you use ammo more than once you run out. (Hey, he fired a full burst and still has ammo but I'm dry after 2 single shots on two turns?!)

Since this is a "genre supplement," as Benoist pointed out, that implies that GW is considered a distinct genre unto itself. I would assume if they decided to do another scifi genre (or subgenre), they'd change stuff like that to reflect it - Star Frontiers/Alternity are more "realistic" than GW, so I'd imagine healing and ammo would be handled quite differently. Just a guess.

So let me just make sure I'm following this....

Ammunition is now an Encounter power?

Quote from: Cylonophile;409401"Healing times? Maximum healing rates? Oh, dearie, those are just soooo old school and boring. If we have people having to take days or more to fully heal, why, they'll get bored."

How does one not get bored with a character laid up for days? We handwaved that healing rate bullshit all the time really early on because it was boring and slowed down the game. Well, "handwaved" isn't exactly the right way to put it - we came up with houserules for it, or used stuff we found in Dragon or from other players. I remember times when we were trying to play the game using the healing rules as written, and it became an irritation.

Back then, a good while before videogames were even close to being commonplace, the closest comparison would be to comic books. Comic book characters at the time (and now, for the most part) can take vicious ass-kickings and be able to get back in the fray after a short interlude. So while I get the videogame reference, I think videogames get a lot of that stuff from comics, an even older source. And I have no problem with equating D&D characters with comic characters.

Why would there be a problem with equating RPG character with video game characters?

This is really what they're doing. I'm not into that myself, but I see no reason to deny it. It does mesh with a lot of people's tastes regarding fantasy fiction nowadays. It's not a fluke.

Quote from: Benoist;409443Why would there be a problem with equating RPG character with video game characters?

There isn't, as far as I'm concerned. Videogames have borrowed heavily from D&D, and now D&D borrows from them. It makes sense.

I just think that it's all rooted in comic book sensibilities. I think old timers like me find comics a more palatable influence than videogames. That doesn't mean videogame characters are unpalatable as an influence. I'm one of those grognards who doesn't get why my contemporaries have such a hate on for videogame influences.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;409437How does one not get bored with a character laid up for days? We handwaved that healing rate bullshit all the time really early on because it was boring and slowed down the game.

Healing rates never slowed down the game for my games because we would forget about them all the time. Then, we would indeed handwave them "you regain hm err. 3 HP. Yeah. That's it."

But really, in 4e's context, this is besides the point, to me. HPs in 4e do not represent Health, pretty much at all, as a matter of fact. "Hit Points represent physical endurance, skill, luck, and resolve." From Heroes of the Fallen Lands, p.27. There is no mention of "Health" proper. "Healing" is thus a misnomer in 4e: healing powers and abilities help a character recharge his batteries, take a breath, to get inspired and charge into the fight. This is where healing surges and second winds come up and make sense. "Bloodied" is not "half health before death with a gashing wound". It's just that: the first wound, which does not imply that the next hit after this one would be another one, mind you - i.e. the lower half of your HPs is not somehow "health" while the upper half isn't, no - none of your HPs represent "health" per se. Minions also suddenly make sense. Et cetera.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;409445There isn't, as far as I'm concerned. Videogames have borrowed heavily from D&D, and now D&D borrows from them. It makes sense.

I just think that it's all rooted in comic book sensibilities. I think old timers like me find comics a more palatable influence than videogames. That doesn't mean videogame characters are unpalatable as an influence. I'm one of those grognards who doesn't get why my contemporaries have such a hate on for videogame influences.

OK. So your Comics comment was more personal than I originally took it out to be.
Fine by me.

Quote from: Benoist;409446Healing rates never slowed down the game for my games because we would forget about them all the time. Then, we would indeed handwave them "you regain hm err. 3 HP. Yeah. That's it."

But really, in 4e's context, this is besides the point, to me. HPs in 4e do not represent Health, pretty much at all, as a matter of fact. "Hit Points represent physical endurance, skill, luck, and resolve." From Heroes of the Fallen Lands, p.27. There is no mention of "Health" proper. "Healing" is thus a misnomer in 4e: healing powers and abilities help a character recharge his batteries, take a breath, to get inspired and charge into the fight. This is where healing surges and second winds come up and make sense. "Bloodied" is not "half health before death with a gashing wound". It's just that: the first wound, which does not imply that the next hit after this one would be another one, mind you - i.e. the lower half of your HPs is not somehow "health" while the upper half isn't, no - none of your HPs represent "health" per se. Minions also suddenly make sense. Et cetera.

Hit points have always meant different things to me, sometimes in the same fight. In the recent "Troy" movie, which is not that great but not horrendous, the fight between Achilles and Hector is not only a pretty fantastic movie fight, but is also a good illustration, in my opinion, of hit points in action. Hector doesn't take a lot of "real" damage until Achilles kills him, but the near-misses and remarkable maneuvers and body movements he makes as Achilles nearly strikes him on several occasions would, in my game at least, be how I described the loss of hit points as the fight went along. Then, suddenly, luck runs out, and that's the end of Hector. But in other fights, every hit point loss might be described as inflicting a "real" wound, from scratches to the proverbial "pierced through the thigh."

The thing with 4e is that it takes what we sort of took for granted all of these years, and makes it crystal clear in its rules, and even one-ups it in a certain way, to basically state hit points are a mix of different things that are blatantly not "health" at all.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;409445I just think that it's all rooted in comic book sensibilities. I think old timers like me find comics a more palatable influence than videogames. That doesn't mean videogame characters are unpalatable as an influence. I'm one of those grognards who doesn't get why my contemporaries have such a hate on for videogame influences.

If it were a problem with specific genres, I could see that.

But video-games are far more diverse in feel and design than just gamey action-hero stuff.  Far more diverse in terms of mainstream genres than comic-books, given that non-supers comics are pretty niche.

Quote from: Sigmund;409416The thing is, DnD's main competition is really video games, rather than other rpgs.

Correcto-mundo!!!

Quote from: Werekoala;409435Ammunition is now an Encounter power?

Yes...and no.

Apparently, you can Boom Boom Boom all you want in an Encounter.  BUT if you shot more than once, then you get all Click Click Click when the battle is done.

I'm not horrendously upset by that.  Counting ammo suxxors, but I would like to see some mechanic for needing to reload during battle.

Quote from: Benoist;409446HPs in 4e do not represent Health, pretty much at all, as a matter of fact. "Hit Points represent physical endurance, skill, luck, and resolve." From Heroes of the Fallen Lands, p.27.

Very interesting.

Can anyone quote the new GW box set about HPs?

So Gamma World is like a playable version of RIFTS, just with a teency weency bit less LSD?

Quote from: Benoist;409466

Hi, welcome to Gamma World.  It's been here since 1978.  Where the fuck have you been, Cartoon Boy Tycho?

Quote from: Peregrin;409471So Gamma World is like a playable version of RIFTS, just with a teency weency bit less LSD?

Gamma World is like Morrow Project but crashed into by a busload of Star Frontiers and rolling off a cliff into a lake full of LSD and DMSO.