I'm curious what your picks are, and why.
Your reasons could be anything, from poor writing, bad mechanics, dumb concepts, political preaching, associations with writers you can't stand, Anal Circumference Tables, etc.
I would say, easily, DragonBall Z: The Anime Adventure Game.
The rules weren't terrible, per say, but with each expansion, the game eventually collapsed under its own weight, starting with the second book. It was done using the Instant Fuzion rule system. It caused the few groups that continued to play it to have to house rule the system to death in order to make it work.
Quote from: World_Warrior on January 07, 2022, 08:43:14 PM
I would say, easily, DragonBall Z: The Anime Adventure Game.
The rules weren't terrible, per say, but with each expansion, the game eventually collapsed under its own weight, starting with the second book. It was done using the Instant Fuzion rule system. It caused the few groups that continued to play it to have to house rule the system to death in order to make it work.
Holy crap how did THE FIRST RESPONSE in such a huge sea of options manage to be the one I was going to say?! :o
I'm a huge Dragon Ball fan and of course had this system and, my god, it's basically unplayably broken and weird. It was just so poorly thought out and implemented. More than "inelegant" it was just...it felt like a bunch of broken shards of glass scotch taped together and called a window. And, as pointed out, the later books just made the whole thing implode.
Probably the biggest disappointment of my TTRPG gaming
Quote from: DM_Curt on January 07, 2022, 07:57:00 PM
I'm curious what your picks are, and why.
Your reasons could be anything, from poor writing, bad mechanics, dumb concepts, political preaching, associations with writers you can't stand, Anal Circumference Tables, etc.
D&D 4th Edition, because it claimed to be D&D; while changing the lore, the rules, the PC roles, and the entire experience of playing D&D. The very next edition reverted to the 3rd Edition lore, and tried to pretend that 4th Edition never happened.
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 07, 2022, 09:03:04 PM
Quote from: DM_Curt on January 07, 2022, 07:57:00 PM
I'm curious what your picks are, and why.
Your reasons could be anything, from poor writing, bad mechanics, dumb concepts, political preaching, associations with writers you can't stand, Anal Circumference Tables, etc.
D&D 4th Edition, because it claimed to be D&D; while changing the lore, the rules, the PC roles, and the entire experience of playing D&D. The very next edition reverted to the 3rd Edition lore, and tried to pretend that 4th Edition never happened.
100% agree. The only game that would be improved with addition of Anal Circumference.
Pirates & Plunder by Yaquinto. I cannot begin to catalogue the shit within the three booklet's pages.
Anal circumference tables sounds like Rolemaster or maybe Phoenix Command.
Rate of change in pucker factor: 4 puckers per second per second
I'm going to say Cyborg Commando because it had bad art and was just a bucket of mismatched stuff that ranged from the mediocre to the insipidly pointless. Is it playable? I have no idea. I ain't got that much of an attention span but...Gygax must have been high AF on something. Either that or someone forged his name on the docs. Frank Mentzer was in on this joint.
" I like cyborgs, and I like commandos, but I do not like this."
I know in my heart that it is a basic bitch LCD low hanging fruit "any poser would say that" choice, but when my friend Joel showed me his box set of this back when I was in high school it was stunningly insane as a boxed sold product at that time and we were not what you would call sophisticated connoisseurs. I had the ElfQuest Chaosium game on my mind then...don't ask, it was my equivalent to a tumblr wreck period, but Cyborg Commando was just UTTER NONSENSE.
Not my pics, I just wanted to prove to myself that I was not hallucinating.
(https://i.imgur.com/zyWdniG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VcqRtFZ.png)
Also, just to waste space: it took me a while but I did eventually get the F.A.T.A.L. reference but I said nothing because I think I only heard about F.A.T.A.L. from a Cracked article or something and never encountered it in the wild. I changed my mind though because I did not want to leave Kurt hanging.
I really thought the rules for Alpha*Omega were pretty shitty. The book is very pretty, but there's not enough to really make it work when it comes to the game mechanics.
The Cyborg Commando art looks like a bad imitation of NES video game box art. Rough.
It was from 1987, so it's quite possible they hired an artist, using those "air-brush or die" methods, and he sold them something LJN or CAPCOM USA didn't want to buy, that was originally made to be a game cartridge sticker art.
There were novels too, or at least one novel. Behold!
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51XLkcRFWhL._SX314_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Also, Cyborg Commando the rpg/novels series from 1987 is not to be confused with the arcade game Bionic Commando from 1987.
(https://i.imgur.com/QmL97pA.png)
The worst I've tried was the Burning Wheel. I'm sure there are much worse games out there. This one was hyped as one of the best. When we tried it, it was a pretty miserable experience. The only fun we had was outside of the game. Whenever the game mechanics came into play, all the fun went out of the window. Even in game achievement and character development felt empty. It seemed that advancing somehow made it harder to achieve even the simplest of in game tasks. I've been told that the fun doesn't really kick in until you are a couple of years in. Fuck that for a game of soldiers.
Quote from: palaeomerus on January 08, 2022, 02:40:01 AM
It was from 1987, so it's quite possible they hired an artist, using those "air-brush or die" methods, and he sold them something LJN or CAPCOM USA didn't want to buy, that was originally made to be a game cartridge sticker art.
There were novels too, or at least one novel. Behold!
Also, Cyborg Commando the rpg/novels series from 1987 is not to be confused with the arcade game Bionic Commando from 1987.
It has a very "Street Fighter 2010" feel to it. I could so see it being art that was rejected for the cover of a video game for that time period. 100%
Tiny Dungeons. I would not have believed a game could be this bad, until I ran it. Not once, but twice. First time, I thought I might have misread certain rules. Second time, I made damn sure I got all the rules down. Nope it's still a pile of garbage.
Quote from: mudbanks on January 08, 2022, 05:46:41 AM
Tiny Dungeons. I would not have believed a game could be this bad, until I ran it. Not once, but twice. First time, I thought I might have misread certain rules. Second time, I made damn sure I got all the rules down. Nope it's still a pile of garbage.
What was so bad about it?
Okay. We got some good answers and reasoning.
-DragonBall Z: The Anime Adventure Game.
-Pirates & Plunder by Yaquinto.
-Cyborg Commando
-Alpha*Omega
-Burning Wheel
-Tiny Dungeons
I expected and got D&D 4e, because it wasn't really D&D, as such. I would include 4e, for that reason. I bought it to read it, just couldn't get into it. Too much "How to play a D&D-themed MMO, but on paper because the Internet went out." I didn't want to mention it in my initial post because I didn't want to bias the list with low-hanging fruit. 4e has plenty of detractors, even though I don't hate it, I just felt it was a waste of my time to read.
I would add FATAL because it's infamous. I have a PDF of it somewhere. I kind of want to see if I can skim some rule or something from it (not related to Anal circumference or dick size) just for the lol of having a bit of that DNA in my homebrew nonsense.
I'm not surprised if someone adds a Red-list game for who is attached, and knowing that a portion of the sales goes to so-and-so is a hard NO for them. But that doesn't make the game itself bad.
The worst thing on my shelf right now is Five Torches Deep. It just seems like a worse version of existing properties without adding anything I really enjoy.
I'd put the 5th edition of Legend of the Five Rings there. The books do have gorgeous artwork, but they are an organizational mess, complicated further by gimmicky proprietary dice with symbols that aren't easily distinguished on the fly. The rules are simply awful, as they tried to make it both a story game and add tactical grit with partial successes and the like that have you constantly reaching for the rulebook to figure out what just happened. This is made even worse with the SJW tetsubo they hit you over the head with. Sidebars include all manner of cultural sensitivity warnings and modules include sidebars with trigger warnings because they depict heterosexual relations therein! They utterly destroyed a once rather interesting game, albeit one that always suffered from mechanical issues IMHO. It should have been retitled "Snowflake Samurai."
Quote from: Persimmon on January 08, 2022, 09:29:51 AM
I'd put the 5th edition of Legend of the Five Rings there. The books do have gorgeous artwork, but they are an organizational mess, complicated further by gimmicky proprietary dice with symbols that aren't easily distinguished on the fly. The rules are simply awful, as they tried to make it both a story game and add tactical grit with partial successes and the like that have you constantly reaching for the rulebook to figure out what just happened. This is made even worse with the SJW tetsubo they hit you over the head with. Sidebars include all manner of cultural sensitivity warnings and modules include sidebars with trigger warnings because they depict heterosexual relations therein! They utterly destroyed a once rather interesting game, albeit one that always suffered from mechanical issues IMHO. It should have been retitled "Snowflake Samurai."
Oh man ANOTHER massive disappointment for me. L5R is an amazing setting and has had a great card game and great tabletop games...and 5th Edition is an absolute disaster
I agree Burning Wheel just doesn't work so great. I only played it a little bit. I thought it would be fine, but it just never was.
I also thought Monte Cooks system, whatever it is called (Cypher System?), doesn't work as well as intended. It's not "terrible" but it definitely lacked some things I prefer in RPGs.
I agree with L5R 5th edition, the gameplay itself isn't terrible but the amount that they fucked up the lore makes it a terrible. Also the game is very hard to die on so basically they completely ditched its existing fans to cater to a completely new audience now full of sjws and the cringiest of weebs.
D&D 4th edition for having combats that take way to god damn long
Star finder... the only game I ever sold off because I hated it. It lacks creativity and its whole premise is "lol so random" and it plays like a loot piniata more than an rpg. Hand grenades are mildly inconvenient and laser guns tickle.
D&D 5e. It tries so hard to emulate 1e and fails miserably.
Vampire - it takes itself so seriously (rather, its fans do).
d20 Modern. Class and Level based system with too much trying to be generic to fit every genre.
Quote from: 3catcircus on January 08, 2022, 03:23:39 PM
D&D 5e. It tries so hard to emulate 1e and fails miserably.
Vampire - it takes itself so seriously (rather, its fans do).
d20 Modern. Class and Level based system with too much trying to be generic to fit every genre.
Yeah, to me D&D 5e is "The Rise of Skywalker" of D&D editions in every way...
Quote from: mudbanks on January 08, 2022, 05:46:41 AM
Tiny Dungeons. I would not have believed a game could be this bad, until I ran it. Not once, but twice. First time, I thought I might have misread certain rules. Second time, I made damn sure I got all the rules down. Nope it's still a pile of garbage.
Im also curious on your problems with tiny dungeons.
Quote from: Ocule on January 08, 2022, 11:41:57 AM
I agree with L5R 5th edition, the gameplay itself isn't terrible but the amount that they fucked up the lore makes it a terrible. Also the game is very hard to die on so basically they completely ditched its existing fans to cater to a completely new audience now full of sjws and the cringiest of weebs.
D&D 4th edition for having combats that take way to god damn long
Star finder... the only game I ever sold off because I hated it. It lacks creativity and its whole premise is "lol so random" and it plays like a loot piniata more than an rpg. Hand grenades are mildly inconvenient and laser guns tickle.
Starfinder is a shitty attempt to create a tabletop Destiny-style looter-shooter. It's absolutely soulless, unimaginative and awful
Quote from: 3catcircus on January 08, 2022, 03:23:39 PM
d20 Modern. Class and Level based system with too much trying to be generic to fit every genre.
Oh man I loved d20 Modern!
Quote from: Mistwell on January 08, 2022, 11:39:13 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on January 08, 2022, 03:23:39 PM
d20 Modern. Class and Level based system with too much trying to be generic to fit every genre.
Oh man I loved d20 Modern!
I can't believe I that Mistwell and I agree on something! I could explain my love for D20M, but it that would be better in a thread called "Games you love that everyone else hates."
Quote from: Persimmon on January 08, 2022, 04:10:06 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on January 08, 2022, 03:23:39 PM
D&D 5e. It tries so hard to emulate 1e and fails miserably.
Vampire - it takes itself so seriously (rather, its fans do).
d20 Modern. Class and Level based system with too much trying to be generic to fit every genre.
Yeah, to me D&D 5e is "The Rise of Skywalker" of D&D editions in every way...
It's funny how everyone seemed to love 5e when it came out, but now it's 4e v2.
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 07, 2022, 09:03:04 PM
Quote from: DM_Curt on January 07, 2022, 07:57:00 PM
I'm curious what your picks are, and why.
Your reasons could be anything, from poor writing, bad mechanics, dumb concepts, political preaching, associations with writers you can't stand, Anal Circumference Tables, etc.
D&D 4th Edition, because it claimed to be D&D; while changing the lore, the rules, the PC roles, and the entire experience of playing D&D. The very next edition reverted to the 3rd Edition lore, and tried to pretend that 4th Edition never happened.
It's also the only edition that caters to D&D's roots as a wargame, doesnt pretend to be fake, and nails exactly what D&D truly is, which is a game all about kicking ass, exploring dungeons and adventure sites, taking treasure, gaining power, selling loot, killing monsters, and actually gives Players some real fucking say in how combats play out without needing to ask the DM for permission to do anything. It also has more non-combat systems than any other edition except for probably AD&D 1e.
Quote from: RebelSky on January 09, 2022, 02:01:35 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 07, 2022, 09:03:04 PM
Quote from: DM_Curt on January 07, 2022, 07:57:00 PM
I'm curious what your picks are, and why.
Your reasons could be anything, from poor writing, bad mechanics, dumb concepts, political preaching, associations with writers you can't stand, Anal Circumference Tables, etc.
D&D 4th Edition, because it claimed to be D&D; while changing the lore, the rules, the PC roles, and the entire experience of playing D&D. The very next edition reverted to the 3rd Edition lore, and tried to pretend that 4th Edition never happened.
It's also the only edition that caters to D&D's roots as a wargame, doesnt pretend to be fake, and nails exactly what D&D truly is, which is a game all about kicking ass, exploring dungeons and adventure sites, taking treasure, gaining power, selling loot, killing monsters, and actually gives Players some real fucking say in how combats play out without needing to ask the DM for permission to do anything. It also has more non-combat systems than any other edition except for probably AD&D 1e.
Are you describing 4E or 5E?
Quote from: Plotinus on January 08, 2022, 07:50:38 AM
Quote from: mudbanks on January 08, 2022, 05:46:41 AM
Tiny Dungeons. I would not have believed a game could be this bad, until I ran it. Not once, but twice. First time, I thought I might have misread certain rules. Second time, I made damn sure I got all the rules down. Nope it's still a pile of garbage.
What was so bad about it?
The traits system was cool, but you were only ever rolling 1d6, 2d6 or 3d6 at any point in time, and only a 5 or 6 would count as a success unless you Focused. We had entire rounds where everyone was missing. I also pitted a draco-lich against newbie PCs and they were able to whittle it down to 15HP or so. Meanwhile, my Draco-lich was only doing 1 damage to them (and that's provided it hit). I'm not a fan of overly swingy damage, but this was way too far on the other end of the spectrum. I also didn't like the magic system. Too restrictive.
I think the absolute worst TTRPG rule set I ever used is questionable for this list, because it was a sort of an online, fan-published sort of thing called 'Big Breast, Small Waist' or BBSW as a play on BESM. It touted itself as the 'Hentai RPG' and it was just a mess. Granted, that may have been because my friends and I were a group of immature high schoolers, but I just feel like the traits were unbalanced, and it was a game that was supposed to translate... what, exactly? The deep, nuanced themes and characterization of a school girl getting plowed by a tentacle demon, into a game for you and three to five friends to enjoy around pizza? It was a terrible concept, a slapdash rule set, and I think it has mostly died out.
I want to give a personal honorable mention to Immortals: The Invisible War. I can't say if it's the worst, or even bad really. I still have no idea how to play it. The rulebooks front-load so much lore and lexicon that trying to get through it all is a soul-crushing slog. Or maybe I'm just lazy and seek instant gratification. If you know the game and like playing it, good on you. Me, I tried and just couldn't get there.
Quote from: Mistwell on January 08, 2022, 11:39:13 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on January 08, 2022, 03:23:39 PM
d20 Modern. Class and Level based system with too much trying to be generic to fit every genre.
Oh man I loved d20 Modern!
Spycraft did d20 Modern better than d20 Modern...
Not saying it's the worst, but I didn't like 3.5 or Pathfinder. Far too fiddly for me...
I always point to Knights And Berserkers And Ledergermain as the ultimate kid wrote a game and parents mortgaged the house to publish it. 6d20 for a dozen attributes one of which you use the square root of divided by the target's attribute times 100 to find the chance to hit.
The parchment floor plans did look nice.
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 07, 2022, 09:03:04 PM
D&D 4th Edition, because it claimed to be D&D; while changing the lore, the rules, the PC roles, and the entire experience of playing D&D. The very next edition reverted to the 3rd Edition lore, and tried to pretend that 4th Edition never happened.
Agreed. I still can't believe WotC did that. Almost as bad as what Disney did to SW.
The Adventures of Indiana Jones by TSR was long held as the example of worst RPG ever. I always thought that was unfair. It is a fine system, very evocative of the setting, and had good production values. As for the "missing" PC creation rules, you could use the NPC creation rules in the back or the IJAC1 Judges' Survival Pack supplement.
d20 Modern had flaws, but I found I could hack in custom rules and make it work for several different genres. Almost like a proto-Savage Worlds.
One of my BIG beefs with 3.5E and PF was that the developers seemed willfully blind to the problems tied into the game mechanics, particularly multiple attribute dependencies and the action economy. Pathfinder is particularly guilty of this, considering it started out as a house rule package for 3.5E.
I stand by my assertion that 4E would've gotten a better reception if it was marketed as a squad-tactical RPG/minis game, a la 40k's Kill Team. Call it D&D Tactics and go from there. Hell, D&D grew out of the old Chainmail tactical game, why not a hop back to its roots?
Starfinder... makes no sense at all. The weird level based gear and the jank mechanics (why do I need to keep making skill checks for my sneak attack?) just sat poorly with me. You can see where they were testing possible rules permutations for later incorporation into PF2, as well.
Quote from: David Johansen on January 09, 2022, 03:57:15 PM
I always point to Knights And Berserkers And Ledergermain as the ultimate kid wrote a game and parents mortgaged the house to publish it. 6d20 for a dozen attributes one of which you use the square root of divided by the target's attribute times 100 to find the chance to hit.
The parchment floor plans did look nice.
Yeah, in absolute terms, the worst games are likely self-published dreck that no one other than their creator ever played. And there's a significant number of those.
But the more interesting, I think, are games like Cyborg Commando that had stuff going for them and real backers - plus the name and experience of Gary Gygax - that still managed to be terrible. Games like D20 Modern at least have their share of fans (as evidenced in this thread) -- but Cyborg Commando never had a community even at the time it was released.
I'm a little surprised Raven C.S. McCracken's "World of Synnibarr" hasn't made an appearance here yet. Maybe I'm just one of the few suckers that bought it. It basically makes less sense than Rifts and isn't as well organized.
Several years ago, I mailed my copy to one of the mods at ENWorld on the condition that he never send it back to me.
Quote from: Almost_Useless on January 09, 2022, 07:19:09 PM
I'm a little surprised Raven C.S. McCracken's "World of Synnibarr" hasn't made an appearance here yet. Maybe I'm just one of the few suckers that bought it. It basically makes less sense than Rifts and isn't as well organized.
Several years ago, I mailed my copy to one of the mods at ENWorld on the condition that he never send it back to me.
Tbh i find Synnibar entainingly bad. Its a terrible game but really fun to laugh at..espevially if you can get someone else to try to play it
Was Synnibar the one where players might encounter a wounded paratrooper and then they come closer to try to help him it suddenly morphs in a frog like humanoid creature with a cheap unreliable .38 special revolver?
Or am I thinking of something else?
Synnibarr was like the gaming equivalent of one of those goofy old sci-fi movies that's trying SO hard but it's so limited by the SFX and makeup tech of its day that you can't help but smirk. All it needs is Mike (or Joel) and the bots in the audience, cracking jokes.
Wasn't Synnibar the game where the storm god played in a local rock band? That silliness is about all I remember from it.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 09, 2022, 05:33:27 PM
I stand by my assertion that 4E would've gotten a better reception if it was marketed as a squad-tactical RPG/minis game, a la 40k's Kill Team. Call it D&D Tactics and go from there. Hell, D&D grew out of the old Chainmail tactical game, why not a hop back to its roots?
Agreed. I've been saying the same thing. If it had been marketed as the new Battlesystem, or even a modern advanced Chainmail with a line of miniatures for skirmish battles it would have been much more warmly received.
Playing it just did not feel like D&D. To quote someone I knew at GenCon when it was released, after playing a session he just shook his head with a baffled expression and said "What the f*ck was that?!" That reaction always stuck with me and succinctly described 4e.
Quote from: jhkim on January 09, 2022, 05:53:46 PM
Yeah, in absolute terms, the worst games are likely self-published dreck that no one other than their creator ever played. And there's a significant number of those.
But the more interesting, I think, are games like Cyborg Commando that had stuff going for them and real backers - plus the name and experience of Gary Gygax - that still managed to be terrible. Games like D20 Modern at least have their share of fans (as evidenced in this thread) -- but Cyborg Commando never had a community even at the time it was released.
It was advertised in Dragon for a couple of years as was the modern spy version MISSION.
Another one might be Man Myth and Magic. I recall the ads and the Dragon Magazine review but never had a copy. I believe Hinterwelt has republished it.
The absolute WORST RPG EVAR is your favorite game.
Unless it's also my favorite game.
In that case, you are just playing it wrong.
Quote from: jhkim on January 09, 2022, 05:53:46 PM
Quote from: David Johansen on January 09, 2022, 03:57:15 PM
I always point to Knights And Berserkers And Ledergermain as the ultimate kid wrote a game and parents mortgaged the house to publish it. 6d20 for a dozen attributes one of which you use the square root of divided by the target's attribute times 100 to find the chance to hit.
The parchment floor plans did look nice.
Yeah, in absolute terms, the worst games are likely self-published dreck that no one other than their creator ever played. And there's a significant number of those.
But the more interesting, I think, are games like Cyborg Commando that had stuff going for them and real backers - plus the name and experience of Gary Gygax - that still managed to be terrible. Games like D20 Modern at least have their share of fans (as evidenced in this thread) -- but Cyborg Commando never had a community even at the time it was released.
I think that games like Cyborg Commando, Dangerous Journeys, Twilight:2013 suffer from, not poor gameplay or mechanics, but a poor edit and sub-optimal layout. When you have to flip across several sections of the rules for character creation, it's a problem... And I love the concepts for all three games - especially Twilight:2013 (to the point that I've created my own personal edit of the published rules and supplements that rearranges the layout to make it easier to use.)
As far as Synnibarr goes there is a new edition coming out and the rules are redone. I have the pdfs and this version is sturdier. I know Raven gets a lot of flak, but this is his thing and he is pretty much a one man band.
Quote from: 3catcircus on January 10, 2022, 08:32:19 AM
Quote from: jhkim on January 09, 2022, 05:53:46 PM
Quote from: David Johansen on January 09, 2022, 03:57:15 PM
I always point to Knights And Berserkers And Ledergermain as the ultimate kid wrote a game and parents mortgaged the house to publish it. 6d20 for a dozen attributes one of which you use the square root of divided by the target's attribute times 100 to find the chance to hit.
The parchment floor plans did look nice.
Yeah, in absolute terms, the worst games are likely self-published dreck that no one other than their creator ever played. And there's a significant number of those.
But the more interesting, I think, are games like Cyborg Commando that had stuff going for them and real backers - plus the name and experience of Gary Gygax - that still managed to be terrible. Games like D20 Modern at least have their share of fans (as evidenced in this thread) -- but Cyborg Commando never had a community even at the time it was released.
I think that games like Cyborg Commando, Dangerous Journeys, Twilight:2013 suffer from, not poor gameplay or mechanics, but a poor edit and sub-optimal layout. When you have to flip across several sections of the rules for character creation, it's a problem... And I love the concepts for all three games - especially Twilight:2013 (to the point that I've created my own personal edit of the published rules and supplements that rearranges the layout to make it easier to use.)
Decipher's take on the Star Trek RPG had a Player's Guide with notoriously bad layout that made character creation a chore.