The trouble with Bio-Diesel is an interesting topic in and of itself.  To harvest, say Corn.... I know, I know, I've said this before...  you need to spend energy planting, maintaining, harvesting and eventually refining that corn. Some of that energy comes from the sun, some comes from labor (fueled in part by eating said corn) and the rest comes from stored energy in the form of petroleum.

Biodeisel allows you to recoup some of that stored energy by... re-storing it. But!

By the time you count the amount of energy expended, biodeisel can only replace a comparatively small portion of the energy expended. Currently, that's not a real problem, but in a PA society? Critical... biodeisel is a useful byproduct you can use your excess crops for... but to grow a crop solely FOR biodiesel to fuel vehicles?  

Not gonna happen.

Sorry, between my career in logistical management and my avid interest in infrastructures of society and how they can fail... this topic is one I know far too much about to be healthy

Quote from: WerekoalaWhen did we "grow up"? When did roleplaying stop being about good vs. evil, and become all moral equivalence and gray and do what thou wilt? When did we start wondering if that kobold we just axed had a wife and kidlings?

During my first year of playing 1st edition AD&D our gaming group erupted in a huge argument when our dungeon-raiding party stumbled across a baby orc.  I proposed that we spare it and raise it to be Good, and suddenly the group divided over the issue of whether or not alignment was a fixed element of nature -- if a creature listed in the Monster Manual as Chaotic Evil could ever be anything other than Chaotic Evil.  I'd call that a pretty "grey area", and we were only 15 at the time.

!i!

Quote from: SpikeBy the time you count the amount of energy expended, biodeisel can only replace a comparatively small portion of the energy expended. Currently, that's not a real problem, but in a PA society? Critical... biodeisel is a useful byproduct you can use your excess crops for... but to grow a crop solely FOR biodiesel to fuel vehicles?  

Not gonna happen.

Some crops are far more efficient for vegetable oil production than others, of course, and depending upon where and how they are grown and harvested can tip the balance of cost-efficiency.  Neither here nor there with regard to this thread, and you probably already knew thta anyway.

!i! (a dedicated biodiesel consumer)

Quote from: SpikeThe trouble with Bio-Diesel is an interesting topic in and of itself.  To harvest, say Corn.... I know, I know, I've said this before...  you need to spend energy planting, maintaining, harvesting and eventually refining that corn. Some of that energy comes from the sun, some comes from labor (fueled in part by eating said corn) and the rest comes from stored energy in the form of petroleum.

Biodeisel allows you to recoup some of that stored energy by... re-storing it. But!

By the time you count the amount of energy expended, biodeisel can only replace a comparatively small portion of the energy expended. Currently, that's not a real problem, but in a PA society? Critical... biodeisel is a useful byproduct you can use your excess crops for... but to grow a crop solely FOR biodiesel to fuel vehicles?  

Not gonna happen.

Sorry, between my career in logistical management and my avid interest in infrastructures of society and how they can fail... this topic is one I know far too much about to be healthy

Actually, I was talking about using human and animal waste to make diesel, what's that called?

I realize you know a lot about this topic Spike... but for the rest of us, it's just a game.

When I run Darwin's World or YotZ, society stays just advanced enough to make a good game exploring the unknown and digging through ruins.

It's funny how it works out that way. Might not be totally realistic. But technology always stays just advanced enough to make my game fun.

Chuck

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckActually, I was talking about using human and animal waste to make diesel, what's that called?

I realize you know a lot about this topic Spike... but for the rest of us, it's just a game.

When I run Darwin's World or YotZ, society stays just advanced enough to make a good game exploring the unknown and digging through ruins.

It's funny how it works out that way. Might not be totally realistic. But technology always stays just advanced enough to make my game fun.

Chuck

When the zombie apocalpyse come, you and your 'game players' will be the ones with their backs to the fucking wall, man

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckWow. Don't you think this sort of thing eventually reaches the fantasy RPG equivalent of filling in all the map spaces?

In other words, my guess would be most GMs who ran the game for any length of time would have their OWN vision of what society +15 evolved into.

Agreed.  One think that Tim is insistent on is that There Is No Canon.  He won't even provide stats for the Iconic characters that we use to describe the setting to avoid the Elminster problem

What we've intended is to give the GMs the tools to build their own campaign.  All the locations and NPC groups are optional.  I love the Knights of the SCA, but I'm the first to admit that they are a little, well, camp for most campaigns.  I don't see how any PC group can hope to go up against the Apocalypse Guard and survive and it's a tribute to Tim's original playtesters that he finally had to pull stuff out of d20 Future to give them a challenge.  There are a couple of Havens that are specific to a particular location (the Raft and City Hall Station, New York leap to mind), but places like the Voss are designed to fit anywhere that the GM wants

But one of the big themes of the game is that, no matter how bad things get, humanity will rebuild and will recover.  So seeing both people and locations change and (hopefully) improve over time fulfills one of our priorities (to reference another thread)

Quote from: SpikeOn this: Rome, rape of the Sabines.  the Sabines were very much against the idea... happened anyway.   Other than the romans and the Sabines, nobody else much cared... it happend 'over there someways'...  survival needs tend to limit how proactive you get.

I think it's more communication links.  Anyone who survives beyond day 90 will want to stop running and start living - this is another theme of the game.  If the PC's aren't running around kicking butt and taking names, what else are they doing?

Quote from: SpikeAs for fuel?  I guess the playtesters were the only ones running around trying to fuel up these serious gas-hogs in the local region? Or that the risers didn't prove problematic whenever they stopped for gas?

You'd have to ask Tim for the details, but the Iconic characters are based on the original playtest and they're always bitching about keeping the Bradley's fuelled and maintained

Quote from: SpikeI don't know the mobility of your zombies, or their persistance, but I'm guessing their endurance is pretty fabulous, and a convoy of bradleys and hummers would draw every freek, geek and dead guy in a twenty mile radius.

We provide all sorts of zombies: the standard shamblers, the "28 Days Later"-style Sprinters, "Enhanced Intelligence Zombies" like the hero from Land of the Dead and a couple of others.  One of the "Hold At All Costs" adventures includes the disease-carrying Plague Zombie.  Loud, repetative noise like engines or gunshots will attract every zombie in earshot, but if you move out of range they'll eventually give up

Quote from: SpikeRefinery: Where is it getting it's crude oil and benzine from?

A quick google reveals that the US Strategic Petroleum Reserve is estimated at around ONE BILLION BARRELS of crude - and that's just the stuff the Fed's have lying around

Quote from: SpikeNot trying to attack you, just looking at your senario and seeing a lot of missing peices...

Tim was a mechanised infantryman and has first hand experience of the logistics involved in keeping a unit running.  If you check his blogs and posts you'll see the amount of research that has gone into this game (including, and I'm not joking, using DOD Civil Defense software to model the collapse of civilization due to zombie attack).  He's had serving soldiers asking him to sign their copies of the game.  This isn't intended as an appeal to authority, because you are raising valid issues, but they believe in it.

Hastur, have you read S. M. Stirling's Dies the Fire, The Protector's War, and A Meeting at Corvallis? Somewhat like your RPG, but with certain elements carried a lot further.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonA quick google reveals that the US Strategic Petroleum Reserve is estimated at around ONE BILLION BARRELS of crude - and that's just the stuff the Fed's have lying around

.

Of course, if you wanted to make the Petroleum Reserve a useable... er... object, ideally that would make an awesome 'promised land' for a travel campaign, the entire game focused on reaching, and putting into operation, the strategic reserves to rebuild humanity.

If you make it easy, then the hard questions come to mind: Who is already there and how likely are they to co-operate, how easily can your party pump crude oil out of the ground and refine it into useable fuels.  Just how much fuel does a billion barrels of crude become? Given that there are roughly twenty USEABLE byproducts from crude, including parafin wax...

What do you do if, in the process of defending the reserve your hostile forces (be they zombies or other people) damage the equipment?  

How much of that billion barrels of crude is still down there? I mean, in the wake of your PA senario, for at least a little while the Gov is gonna try to use the reserve to keep things going, and at a minimum rate of 4.4 million barrels a day for three months, depending on how long it takes the party/NPC organization to take control, and who holds it before that, a good chunk of fuel can be gone, and I'm reasonably certain no one is gonna be topping it off.    Lastly, given that you've already postulated a factory for the production of parts and completed vehicles, how are you going to keep the refinery  for your own use AND ship to the factory location?


In all fairness, the worst challenge faced by my players in my last good Eberron campaign was the weather. I'm that sort of asshole.

Quote from: mythusmageHastur, have you read S. M. Stirling's Dies the Fire, The Protector's War, and A Meeting at Corvallis? Somewhat like your RPG, but with certain elements carried a lot further.

I haven't, but a quick wiki seems to indicate that they are right up my street.  I'll add them to the list.  Based on what I've read, I agree with you

Quote from: SpikeOf course, if you wanted to make the Petroleum Reserve a useable... er... object, ideally that would make an awesome 'promised land' for a travel campaign, the entire game focused on reaching, and putting into operation, the strategic reserves to rebuild humanity.

I agree entirely and solving the sort of problems you raise would make a fantastic YotZ campaign for the right sort of group

However, many groups will just want to know that there is a Wolf Pack (feral children) between them and the nearest Continuity of Government stash of diesel and decide whether to fight their way in or just use the VX mortar rounds that their rat bastard of a GM gave them

Quote from: SpikeIn all fairness, the worst challenge faced by my players in my last good Eberron campaign was the weather. I'm that sort of asshole.

If that is your standard of rat-bastardy I think you'll love YotZ.  From memory, I believe Havens contains stats for seven different (real world) diseases that can be contracted from contaminated water - more if you count chemical pollutants

woah... environmental hazards from morality?

how did that happen?

*steals stuff*
*kills some babies*
*staples cats to trees*

WOO HOO! Back to morality discussions we go!

Quote from: Gabriel;55805I think Tracy Hickman is right.  As the consensus of opinion seems to be against me, I'll just say that I very strongly disagree with the "moral ambiguity" and "shades of grey camp" and leave it at that.

Well, that's the sign of a Good person. They don't go with the consensus of opinion, if it's wrong. They stand against the tide, and stand up for what's right. That's what Heroism (fantasy or reality) is about.