Quote from: Hastur T. FannonIt's also tremendously inefficent if mechanisation is available.  All those guards...

I wonder how much mechanization is available in a post apocalyptic society without a supporting infrastructure?

More seriously, most slave holding cultures did not require huge numbers of guards. Call it a facet of human nature, but after a period of time a large number of people just quit trying to be free.  I suspect that in the beginning of MOST slaveholding societies, they didn't even think of them as 'slaves'.   It was just: You, over there, go farm for us. No? Then we beat you if you don't.

This is more true when the 'wilderness' is impossibly hostile to the lone, unarmed man.  If there is nowhere to run, where do you go? What do you do? You continue to survive. You work and do what you are told.  After a generation, maybe less, you stop asking why, its just how you were brought up.

In your ten year window there are undoubtedly those who were born and raised into servitude and are just now entering a good 'working age'.


That and there is a huge difference in my mind between a short period of enforced labor/probation period and slave trading.  If such 'serfdom' is a condition of earning citizenship, and thus voluntarily entered and with clearly defined limits on term of service etc, then it isn't slavery any more than the unpaid 'workers' on a cult commune are.

Quote from: JongWK... Boy, was I disappointed with the BoVD...

Same here.  It was hardly 'vile darkness', unless your idea of 'vile darkness' = 'nipple clamps of evil'.

Quote from: AkrasiaSame here.  It was hardly 'vile darkness', unless your idea of 'vile darkness' = 'nipple clamps of evil'.

Yup, seems aimed at the guys who weren't supposed to buy it.

Still miles better than the atrocious waste of paper that followed after it.

Quote from: SosthenesStill miles better than the atrocious waste of paper that followed after it.

You mean BoED? The one with "Die a Virgin: the Feat"?

And poisons that only worked on evil people (so it's okay to use them)?

And Vow of Poverty (ridiculously broken hobo powers, ACTIVATE)?

That sucked.

Quote from: KnightskyNice lie, though.

Certainly better than your feeble attempt to rewrite history.

Hey, fuckwad, I didn't call you a single name in my post.

I fucking disagreed with you.

I didn't call you a liar.

My source for my version of events is Stan Lee's autobiography, one of the OTHER founders of the CCA.

He hates the CCA, thought it was dumb, hated Wertham and said it was more or less good luck that Marvel (by which he meant himself as the guy in charge of the content) wasn't interested in publishing horror or sexually related material, thus avoiding most of the CCA's ire.

But what the fuck did he know, he was just there.

You want to disagree with that?

Cool. That's what I was doing. Disagreeing with you.

I certainly didn't call you a fucking liar.

So anyway, I hope calling me a liar and flexing your muscle from the safe anonymity of the internet made you feel like a biiiiig man you cowardly fuck.

Chuck

Quote from: beejazzAnd Vow of Poverty (ridiculously broken hobo powers, ACTIVATE)?

well said!  biggest ass feat EVAR.

Quote from: beejazzYou mean BoED? The one with "Die a Virgin: the Feat"?
And poisons that only worked on evil people (so it's okay to use them)?
And Vow of Poverty (ridiculously broken hobo powers, ACTIVATE)?

That sucked.

QFT.
It's like they read the BoVD and tried to make up the exact opposite of every section. If I remember correctly, they even had goodly diseases.

Quote from: SpikeI wonder how much mechanization is available in a post apocalyptic society without a supporting infrastructure?

You'd be surprised.  Most factories are in places with a low density of Risers and (as long as a nuke didn't go off nearby) all the kit will still work and they'll have generators for a 24-7 operation.  The power base of GM-City is based around their ability to build/repair new Bradley AFV's from stockpiled parts.  Ammunition's still a problem, though

Quote from: SpikeMore seriously, most slave holding cultures did not require huge numbers of guards. Call it a facet of human nature, but after a period of time a large number of people just quit trying to be free.  I suspect that in the beginning of MOST slaveholding societies, they didn't even think of them as 'slaves'.   It was just: You, over there, go farm for us. No? Then we beat you if you don't.

This is more true when the 'wilderness' is impossibly hostile to the lone, unarmed man.  If there is nowhere to run, where do you go? What do you do? You continue to survive. You work and do what you are told.  After a generation, maybe less, you stop asking why, its just how you were brought up.

In your ten year window there are undoubtedly those who were born and raised into servitude and are just now entering a good 'working age'.

All covered in Fleshmongers

There's also an assumption in the YotZ setting that there will be groups like the Knights of the SCA, the Rafters, the Missionaries of the St. Francis Academy and, most importantly, the PC's wandering around shooting Fleshmongers, Reavers, Wolf Packs, Crazies and anyone else that looks at them funny.  This will help to reduce the asshole count.  There will be groups who take a very dim view of slavery and who also take a proactive approach to self-defense.  The Raft (a setting I've just finished for Havens) is a community based around the fact that most Naval vessels are crewed by anything up to 1/3 women (reducing the usual "South Pacific problem") and Tim's threatening to write up a Haven based around the Woman Marine Boot Camp at Parris Island

How do you think GI Jane would think of sex slavery?

Hastur:

Hadn't said a word about sex slavery. In terms of general slavery, I doubt women would be any better than men regarding 'enslavement'. Possibly worse, given the fact that through history and up to the modern age women can expect others, men for example, to provide for them or do physical labor for them anyway.    Recall as I said that the very origins of slavery are not likely to begin with the term 'slave' or the instituitions of slave trading... but more akin to just getting used to forcing others to work for you uncompensated.

As for your factories: Generators and working machinery are all well and good, maintenance and fuel however tend to require a working infrastructure.  Refining grain alcohol will only work so long as you have access to excess grain... farming in other words. I believe a modern study shows that our current crop production (which can produce grain for fuel use) does not produce enough energy to replace the energy put into growing it... energy that comes from stored energy in the form of petroleum.  So, the fuel made from corn, say, isn't adequet to grow that corn in the first place.  

Much less run a factory and feed the people who work there.

Quote from: SpikeHadn't said a word about sex slavery.

It'll probably be the most common form, especially at the start of the Rising.  The most common locations that will survive the initial stages of the Rising (prisons, remote military posts, oil rigs, cargo ships) are also those that will be short on women.  Add a couple of other factors (and I'm not going to repost the whole introduction to "The 'South Pacific' Problem" chapter of Havens) and the post-Rising male:female ratio will be 5:1 or even higher in some places.  We've done a lot of work on what this will do to a society and it's been vetted by Tim's wife (a former military nurse) and my own (who'd have given her BA thesis the title "The Chrome Clitoris - a feminist reading of the cyberpunk genre" if she'd been able to find another female cyberpunk author)

Now ask yourself this question: what would you do if you knew that on the other side of that hill there was a community that wasn't treating their women right?

Quote from: SpikeRecall as I said that the very origins of slavery are not likely to begin with the term 'slave' or the instituitions of slave trading... but more akin to just getting used to forcing others to work for you uncompensated.

Well if "no workee, no eatee" counts as slavery then it will be everywhere.  I'm talking about a permanent subclass with little or no rights

Quote from: SpikeAs for your factories: Generators and working machinery are all well and good, maintenance and fuel however tend to require a working infrastructure.

GM-City is an exception based around the exceptional circumstances that lead to it's founding (and if you want to know them, you'll have to buy Fleshmongers or the YotZ corebook (I think it's in Fleshmongers, but I don't have the MS in front of me)).  They don't have the whole production line running, but they can build new AFVs

YotZ is different to most post-apocalyptic games in that it's set during and immediately after the apocalypse.  You need fuel? Hit a service station.  You need motor parts? Look up a garage or a supply house in Yellow Pages and plan a raid.  After Day 90, the only real difficulty will be getting in or out before Mr. Hungry turns up in dangerous numbers.  Internal combustion engines will become much more difficult to run after around year 10 when stockpiled gaskets made before the Rising will start to perish, but human beings are ingenious

I was thinking more long term than 'day 90' stuff. You'd talked about ten years in, and I seriously doubt that a reliable source of 'pre-zero' anything is around 10 years later.    AFV's, by which I strongly suspect you mean 'armored fighting vehicles'....

talk about resources intensive... in a serious drain on the infrastructure. Tons of metal... fuel consumptive in a society that won't have access to fuel in those sort of quantities. If you are talking tracked, you should know that they need track replacement every 500 miles or so, though you might run out of fuel supplies before getting them that far (as in, 2-3 miles a gallon of high grade diesel... obviously worse with lower quality fuels... never mind the oil requirements)  The logistical support for a single armor battalion dwarfs the armor asset by an order of magnitude.  :pundit:

I keep trying to figure out if this is supposed to be a zombie game or a standard post-apocalyptic senario, as you keep dismissing the 'zombie threat' in your posts back.  If the area between me and that community over the hill that abuses their womenfolk is infested with zombies, who cares what I think of their behavior? Zombies, in theory, make a pretty nasty deterrent to morally indignant travel, presumably worse than normal human scum that you would find in a standard post-apoc senario.  You make is seem as if the 'risers' are more an incidental thing, one more thing that the fucked up world tosses you.

Work for food is suggested as the origin of organized slavery. If you put captives and marginal members of the group to work for the other members, with punative measures taken to ensure compliance, you are only roughly using slavery, it is the starting point, and I suspect more likely in organized communities than 'sex slavery' where rape is probably going to be more common in the absence of organized opposition.


Now, if Zombies are less a threat than they should be in what is ostensibly a zombie game, then Rape of the Sabines senarios are possible. Community X has a 5:1 male:female ratio, community Y has a 1:3 ratio, X goes out and steals women from Y.  Some will hate it, others will welcome it, and if X survives long enough, it becomes enshrined in the myths of the founding of the city...

Quote from: SpikeI was thinking more long term than 'day 90' stuff. You'd talked about ten years in, and I seriously doubt that a reliable source of 'pre-zero' anything is around 10 years later.

I agree entirely.  Eventually the YotZ line will support play right from Zero Hour to around year 15.  Marauders and the earlier sourcebooks have NPCs statted out at various points up until the second year, Havens extends this to year 15 and we've tried to look at how people and their surrounding will change over this time

Quote from: SpikeAFV's, by which I strongly suspect you mean 'armored fighting vehicles'....

Yep, specifically the M2 Bradley and it's varients

Quote from: Spiketalk about resources intensive... in a serious drain on the infrastructure.
...
The logistical support for a single armor battalion dwarfs the armor asset by an order of magnitude.  :pundit:

Oh yeah, but we're not talking about battalion-sized assets.  IIRC Tim's original playtest group hovered around 3-4 Bradleys and a military hummer with the occasional TOW-truck and HEMTT.  I think they also fielded an Abrams for a brief time.  We're aware of the Bradley's fuel requirements - it's in the corebook.  We're also aware of how many gas stations there are within a 200 km radius of GM-City and I think there's a refinery pretty close

Quote from: SpikeI keep trying to figure out if this is supposed to be a zombie game or a standard post-apocalyptic senario, as you keep dismissing the 'zombie threat' in your posts back.

Both.  Neither.

Quote from: SpikeZombies, in theory, make a pretty nasty deterrent to morally indignant travel, presumably worse than normal human scum that you would find in a standard post-apoc senario.

Why?  Unless it's a truely serious mob (and everyone avoids the cities), zombies aren't a threat to someone in a gassed-up SUV.  Haven's that want to trade will soon set up an "air-lock" type structure that'll allow people to enter and leave without putting the community at risk

Quote from: SpikeYou make is seem as if the 'risers' are more an incidental thing, one more thing that the fucked up world tosses you.

Bingo.

Quote from: SpikeCommunity X has a 5:1 male:female ratio, community Y has a 1:3 ratio, X goes out and steals women from Y.  Some will hate it, others will welcome it, and if X survives long enough, it becomes enshrined in the myths of the founding of the city...

Yep.  And that's exactly why some groups will take a pro-active approach to stomping out that sort of thing

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonI agree entirely.  Eventually the YotZ line will support play right from Zero Hour to around year 15.  Marauders and the earlier sourcebooks have NPCs statted out at various points up until the second year, Havens extends this to year 15 and we've tried to look at how people and their surrounding will change over this time

Wow. Don't you think this sort of thing eventually reaches the fantasy RPG equivalent of filling in all the map spaces?

In other words, my guess would be most GMs who ran the game for any length of time would have their OWN vision of what society +15 evolved into.

Chuck

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonYep.  And that's exactly why some groups will take a pro-active approach to stomping out that sort of thing

On this: Rome, rape of the Sabines.  the Sabines were very much against the idea... happened anyway.   Other than the romans and the Sabines, nobody else much cared... it happend 'over there someways'...  survival needs tend to limit how proactive you get.  


As for fuel?  I guess the playtesters were the only ones running around trying to fuel up these serious gas-hogs in the local region? Or that the risers didn't prove problematic whenever they stopped for gas?  I don't know the mobility of your zombies, or their persistance, but I'm guessing their endurance is pretty fabulous, and a convoy of bradleys and hummers would draw every freek, geek and dead guy in a twenty mile radius.

Refinery: Where is it getting it's crude oil and benzine from?   I once saw a convoy of 'tanker trucks' going to a fuel refinery. This was a more or less nightly occurence.  That was just the benzine used... twenty or so trucks for a minor refinery in the middle of nowhere.    Now, I suppose you can turn that into twenty or more trucks of fuel.... once. Sounds like a lot, but then your playtest group should last maybe a month or two with all that...


Not trying to attack you, just looking at your senario and seeing a lot of missing peices...:confused:

I would think bio-diesel would be very important to any PA society myself. It's easy to make and engines don't need heavy modification to use it.