Quote from: RPGPunditHOWEVER, a major industry debate about rape, accusations of sexism from radical feminists, a witchhunt against Mongoose by the same, and the question of whether or not Jim Desborough is in fact a rape-obsessed lawncrapper (and whether that in fact justifies radical extremists on Tangency admittedly wanting to destroy entire gaming companies for "revenge" against a hobby they actually seem to hate) is DEFINITELY a valid topic for RPG open, as it connects directly to issues in our hobby and industry.

So if someone wants to restart this in a way that is less about Robmuadib coming here, and more about the topic at hand, they may.

RPGPundit

I think this is interesting because what we are seeing is a small group of people terrorizing a game publisher and an author.

Here is a link to the original post that has a pretty good synopsis of this clusterfuck.

Quote from: Ettinon on TheBigPurpleSo, after recent events some people have been thinking of not buying Mongoose products! I am curious about who is following through on this, or what people who haven't heard about it yet think of all this.

Basically...

• In a recent Tangency thread criticising James Desborough some users were upset that Mongoose publishes some of his stuff.*
• RPGnet poster MalaDicta started a petition on the topic.
• Mongoose noticed, and decided to post a poll about it with a sarcastic topic and an excluded middle. An early cache is here; later a "middle" option was added, and a while after the thread was quietly deleted.
• MalaDicta later had a conversation with Sprange, who accused her of being "immoral", "lying", and destroying Mongoose, among other things (transcript here).

That is about where we are at! Responses so far have been... mixed. MalaDicta herself has been receiving anonymous threatening emails since she started the petition. Desborough has tweeted that those threats are "not genuine" and it's her fault for leaving herself open to trolls (original feed is protected now). Gareth Skarka posted a defense in the Mongoose thread (couldn't find a cache of that) which led to an argument with Sarah Darkmagic in which he called her an "odious little toad" and openly threatened her and her husband. There might be some other commentary but if there is I've missed it.

So basically yeah, this sure is a thing.

*Note: This is a thread about Mongoose, things they do and the reactions to it, not the original mess. JamesCat said no more Desborough talk so if you wander off-topic you are going to make him a very sad man. And don't make personal attacks. Against anyone. Be a bro.

Now that James Desborough has joined in the conversation, the Mods at RPGnet have banned him for defending himself against his critics.

I said it before and I will say it again, this is one steaming pile of clusterfuck.

Are you fucking kidding me?

Jesus fucking Christ on a stick, sometimes I seriously loath RPGnet.  Most the time I can just ignore it, but times like these it boils my blood pressure.

If anyone knows how to get in contact with James Desborough or Matthew Sprange, I'd like to hear their side of the story on this (without them having to worry about being banned for speaking their minds).

I hate to say this, but go look at the last several pages  grognards.txt for some more perspective on this. Try to set aside your kneejerk reactions to the posters in question. I had a hard time with it, but like I said they've got some good points and it's what's being said, not whose saying it that is important. And I'm pretty sure a lot of the now deleted stuff is still up over there in the form of quotes.  This whole thing has got me rethinking my views on a number of issues.
Navel gazing aside, I think regardless of how it is presented a boycott is a completely reasonable response. I also think that rape threats, whatever their veracity, are completely reprehensible and can in no way be condoned or justified or anything else. The rest in regards to who said what and all that and rpg.net's reaction to the same is really just pixel bitching, imo.
Fuck me if I don't agree with JD corely, which is as close to eating shit as I'll ever come.

My thoughts from the little I've gathered on it so far

Is rape a valid literary tool? Yes it is, one of the most recent and extant examples would be the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant and the Gap series. Both wildly popular and both founded largely on acts of graphic rape.

Does this make those works an elaborate apologia for rape? I don't think so.

Are these works advocating rape? Definetely not, the books go on to explore the horrific effects and aftermath of rape in brutal detail. An unsparingly harsh spotlight I would say, in a world of shades of grey, a complicated message.

Other well respected works also incorporate rape, Shakespeare's Rape of Lucrere for one, whereby Lucrere becomes a political symbol.

Was this guy being dickish in his handling of what is a very powerful and evocative as well as sensitive area? Yes, I would say so. I woudn't include rape in an RPG any more than I'd include graphic descriptions of baby eating. It may happen in a gritty world, but my players don't need their faces rubbed in it. I don't think it has a place in gaming.

Again from what I can tell, the offended individual went on a pogrom against this guy, trying to get him fired, while on the other hand specifically saying she didn't want to deny him future opportunities. The moral high ground was definetely moving at that point. Mongoose should have stayed the hell out of it from the sounds of things.

There was a very hyperbolic threat (he said you'd better hope I'm not the vindictive bastard you say I am), but I don't see any rape threats.

In short, Tangency slops over into the real world. If I've picked up anything wrong, feel free to correct me, this is just the result of a quick skimming.

Quote from: Mistwell;551902Are you fucking kidding me?

Jesus fucking Christ on a stick, sometimes I seriously loath RPGnet.  Most the time I can just ignore it, but times like these it boils my blood pressure.

The SA goons started the clusterfuck by commenting on Desborough's blog, mind you. RPGnet being what it is, with its rules and moderation style, it became the stage for the trap/showdown.

Not having any real familiarity with any of the major players here, I have found it very hard to look into this and gain much insight. The rpgnet thread is like 80 pages long and the difference between the two petitions is night and day. Can someone direct me to some of the original pages where this all started (prefably ones that aren't thousand post flame was)?

Quote from: jeff37923;551903If anyone knows how to get in contact with James Desborough or Matthew Sprange, I'd like to hear their side of the story on this (without them having to worry about being banned for speaking their minds).

Grim has a facebook, blog, email, etc, and Sprange seems easy to get hold of through email... but their inboxes are likely to be very busy right now. While getting a message to them would be easy, them seeing it might be difficult.

Look at MalaDicta's transcript though. I mean, read it. She starts off wilfully misinterpreting Sprange's replies, and it just gets worse from there. She certainly shouldn't be receiving threats of violence - and Grim's "they're not real threats! This is just the internet!" is fucking bullshit, threats of violence from strangers are still threats! - but she is a liar.

Mongoose's behaviour actually really annoys me, though. If you read their statement, they weren't planning on hiring Grim again anyway, the book is likely a low seller (So probably wouldn't be reprinted anyway), and Sprange claims to be the only Mongoose person to post on their boards, and hasn't recommended it. So they aren't going to do anything about it, but are framing this as them bowing to popular demand... by doing bugger all (Although he does offer to sell MalaDicta the remaining stock at distributor rates, if she wants them disposed of. I don't believe the bit where he says he was about to offer to pay half - imo, "well I would have done this for you, but you ruined it" is passive-aggressive nastiness, and you all have permission to slap me if you see me doing it to my child!). I can't even boycott them, because the only Mongoose book I own is SWN, and if they did publish anything by one of my favourite authors I'd still buy it because doing anything else would just punish the author.

Essentially, everyone comes out of it looking like a twat, to various degrees. MalaDicta is a liar. Sprange is a coward (Hiding behind "we're a small business"? Really? I'd love to see their financials, but I seriously doubt that they're bad enough one angry internet woman could put them out of business... and if you have full-time employees, in the RPG industry, you're a huge business!). Grim... I actually agree with the point in his original blog post. I still wouldn't buy anything else he wrote though (I've got copies of Bloodsuckers and '45), because I find his "humour" patronising, mean-spirited and nasty; I'm quite content to quietly not to be one of his customers.

Note that "Barry Desborough" is only banned for a day, not permanently. Grim is permabanned from rpg.net, so by their rules any other account he made would get instantly banned. From Facebook, "Barry Desborough" is Grim's dad.

If there's anything amusing at all to take from this it's the fact that not a small amount of the posters brandishing their pitchforks over this are the same people who were defending exactly the same sort of shit when it was presented by a Forge favourite in Poison'd.

I'm all in favour of mercilessly mocking anyone who decides to air this sort of thing in a public place - i've done so consistantly for 7 years now, and gotten accused of prudery, stalking and all sorts inbetween. But there is a line beyond which you start to lose the moral highground.

It's impossible to comment objectively or, imo, factually on this. Not that it will stop me from trying.
I have never read Nymphology, The Temptress book or any of these other absurd sounding products. I've seen parts of them quoted in other discussions about this person whom I have never met and have no personal grievance with. However Nymphology appears to contain all sorts of bizarre stuff including a spell to summon a willing or unwilling sex partner.
Unpleasantness aside, I simply don't understand why something like that would get published - is there a huge market for this that I'm not aware of? It doesn't seem to have a context: there's no setting. It's just a satire/comedy work.
Ok. I have to say that I don't get it. It sounds like an awfully niche market to aim for, but what do I know.
i've tried to follow as much of this as I can, but it's just impossible. I think there are some valid points made against this guy's work. I get the sense he genuinely thinks its just humour and that it's genuinely not intended to be malicious or miogynistic. But why do it at all? Cthulhutech's rape camp stuff was enough to put me right off the game and that came with a context: so yes in that sense rape is a valid plot device. But not one that I want at the table. Nor, really, in the rulebooks (even Black Crusade, where people can follow the 'God of Rape', Slaanesh, is such behaviour mentioned, condoned or suggested).
But a spell to summon unwilling sex victism in a book whose only purpose seems to be to invoke a reaction...? I posted on his blog that I thought he was being a bit disingenuous by acting as if he was the wronged party here. Yes he might have a point, and no I don't like seeing people dogpiled, but you can't write books like this  and then claim you're the victim...come on dude!

Quote from: One Horse Town;551926If there's anything amusing at all to take from this it's the fact that not a small amount of the posters brandishing their pitchforks over this are the same people who were defending exactly the same sort of shit when it was presented by a Forge favourite in Poison'd.
.

ah yes...poison'd. I remember the days. I think that was the darling of the day when first I graced this den of iniquity.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;551931(never mind the hentai sexy schoolgirl tentacle cardgame that got banned from kickstarter)

That wasn't him, it was Soda Pop Miniatures. He just had a very similar idea a few years ago.

What amazes me is that something like this didn't happen sooner. I mean, RPG books have had material which would be considered misogynistic for decades, but this is the first time I can recall a feminist backlash this severe.

Or did I forget something?

Quote from: Ladybird;551943That wasn't him, it was Soda Pop Miniatures. He just had a very similar idea a few years ago.

i stand corrected.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;551931It's impossible to comment objectively or, imo, factually on this. Not that it will stop me from trying.
I have never read Nymphology, The Temptress book or any of these other absurd sounding products. I've seen parts of them quoted in other discussions about this person whom I have never met and have no personal grievance with. However Nymphology appears to contain all sorts of bizarre stuff including a spell to summon a willing or unwilling sex partner.

The Quintessential Temptress actually has some usable and serious stuff in it, and it was used in Conan to add the Temptress class (open to both sexes btw) which very much fit the setting. Not everyone's cup of tea obviously, but I think it is usable and could be worthwhile looking at if you like to use sexual themes and want a ton of mechanics to support that in your 3.x games.

Nymphology on the other hand is pretty much utter garbage. It is a bad collection of poor jokes, dubious powers and even worse spells. Not only are their nine spells that allow you to summon a sex partner who (as the book goes out of its way to tell you) must obey you even if unwilling, it also has such sensitive spells as 'Power Word, Orgasm'. Oh and the monsters include the Porn Golem, Giant Crab and One Eyed Trouser Snake. I would avoid it at all costs because its utter shite, but if you think you would like that sort of thing - just please don't use it in a game I am in.