Quote from: JonWake;682232And it makes all the right people crazy.  I just read an illuminating post where one of the great anti-5e trumpeters revealed that the playtest was a conspiracy on the scale of the Moon landing hoax.  

no way...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;682236no way...

I know, right?
Did you know that (according to lokaire) they couldn't have taken film on the moon because space radiation would erase it?  TRU FAX

I'm pretty sure the mods deleted the post, but WOW. Just WOW.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;682226Same here.  I figure that if everyone thinks it's a different edition, then it in fact is mission accomplished in regards to pulling stuff from each edition.

Is it mission accomplished if it only seems to remind them of the (in their opinion) bullshit parts of random editions?

Quote from: LibraryLass;682241Is it mission accomplished if it only seems to remind them of the (in their opinion) bullshit parts of random editions?

When it's the same dozen people who've been whining about the game since it was announced?

Yeah, not too worried about that.

When I talk to actual, real people, the impression is positive.

Quote from: JonWake;682242When it's the same dozen people who've been whining about the game since it was announced?

Yeah, not too worried about that.

When I talk to actual, real people, the impression is positive.

Its been the same 12 people defending it since the beginning. There really isn't much traffic in that forum anymore either, I remember when threads went 1000+ posts daily.

The actual real people I talk to range from 'meh' to 'kill it with fire'.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;682332Its been the same 12 people defending it since the beginning. There really isn't much traffic in that forum anymore either, I remember when threads went 1000+ posts daily.

The actual real people I talk to range from 'meh' to 'kill it with fire'.

Which explains why whenever you start one of your rants on the WOTC forums, you are quickly shouted down as just whining yet again with no legitimate content for your complaints.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;682333Which explains why whenever you start one of your rants on the WOTC forums, you are quickly shouted down as just whining yet again with no legitimate content for your complaints.

I complain that 5E doesn't do any of things 4E did that I liked. Am I wrong?

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;682336I complain that 5E doesn't do any of things 4E did that I liked. Am I wrong?

No, you complain that 5e doesn't do anything like 4e, period.  And you are wrong.  As keeps getting pointed out to you over and over.

Look dude, there's a reason why every time you go on one of your rants there, people call you out on it.  You have a reputation of being a spiteful whiner complaining about things that aren't necessarily true just because your panties are in a wad.  How do you think that happened?  There's also a reason why the mods keep closing your threads.  Because you're saying the same thing, over and over and over again, every day.

Put on your big boy pants and get over it.

4e is bad. Really bad. Worst D&D ever. Complete failure. Publisher recanted it. That's how bad.

From now to the future, having liked, owned, and played 4e will mark any gamer as someone to avoid.

It will be the litmus test for potential recruits to game groups everywhere:

"What did you think of 4e?"

"I mostly liked it."

"Yeah, sorry, our gaming group is pretty full, right now. Check back at another time."

Quote from: 1989;6823424e is bad. Really bad. Worst D&D ever. Complete failure. Publisher recanted it. That's how bad.

From now to the future, having liked, owned, and played 4e will mark any roleplayer as someone to avoid.

It will be the litmus test for potential recruits to game groups everywhere:

"What did you think of 4e?"

"I mostly liked it."

"Yeah, sorry, our gaming group is pretty full, right now. Check back at another time."

That would really be your loss then.  I've actually played with real people in real life who liked 4e.  They liked other editions too.  People can like more than one edition.  And we all got along fine with those people.

It's just the 4vengers who you need to avoid.  The ones who declare 4e to be the best EVAR and anything else sucks.

I don't think 4e was a terrible game.  I think it was a terrible version of D&D and would have been a better game without the brand name and the baggage.  It might have even gone on to be a contender for the top spot given that WotC would have just found another way drop the ball.  But it fundamentally altered D&D while claiming to be D&D and didn't get to enter the market on its own merits.

It does have it's upsides as a failed product.  For instance, people like myself will no longer be able to say that you could print "Dungeons & Dragons" on a packet of used toilet paper and hold the top spot in the market.  It puts the nail in the lid of the concept that you can change the game entirely and people won't care as long as there are mind flayers and beholders to smite.  I haven't gone on about buying D&D and Rolemaster and republishing Rolemaster with the title AD&D for a while now  But then, my devotion to Rolemaster is pretty much a dead thing at this point.

Quote from: David Johansen;682360I don't think 4e was a terrible game.  I think it was a terrible version of D&D and would have been a better game without the brand name and the baggage.

Exactly.  Love or hate D&D as a game, there are certain things that made it what it was.  When you turn all of that on its head and effectively rewrite a completely different game, it no longer feels like D&D to me.  That, IMO, is one of the biggest flaws of 4e.  Sure, might be a great tactical RPG on it's own right, but it never had the D&D feel that made D&D what it was for 30 years prior.

4E is a fine game but it not D&D. The best part of the design is how they took some of the presentation of Magic the Gathering to make the tactical detail approachable to just about any gamer regardless of skill level.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;682376Exactly.  Love or hate D&D as a game, there are certain things that made it what it was.  When you turn all of that on its head and effectively rewrite a completely different game, it no longer feels like D&D to me.  That, IMO, is one of the biggest flaws of 4e.  Sure, might be a great tactical RPG on it's own right, but it never had the D&D feel that made D&D what it was for 30 years prior.

Quote from: estar;6825784E is a fine game but it not D&D. The best part of the design is how they took some of the presentation of Magic the Gathering to make the tactical detail approachable to just about any gamer regardless of skill level.

I don't entirely disagree, but I note that all of this applies just as much to 3e as it does to 4e.

Quote from: soviet;682614I don't entirely disagree, but I note that all of this applies just as much to 3e as it does to 4e.

Not really.  3e still had vancian magic.  3e still had mundane classes doing relatively mundane abilities not having fighters being able to replicate spells (a common point that 4e fans like to bring up when talking about how Next sucks because it doesn't allow fighters to replicate spells.)  3e did not have per-encounter or at wills.  It was still very much on the per day scale that all previous editions had.

3e was "take D&D and turn all the stats up to 11!"

4e was "rewrite the entire game at a core level."