Greetings!

I have always liked the Kua Toans. The wicked, lovecraftian fish guys that live in the deeps of the earth. In many ways, I thought the Kua Toans had a lot of untapped potential that WOTC generally ignored. I think that the Kua Toans can be expanded and made more challenging, and with more depth. It always surprised me why WOTC didn't expand on them more with some adventure modules or something. There's definitely room to grow there, you know?

In my own campaigns, I have expanded the Kua Toans with a more detailed religion, and a powerful empire of their own in the sunless deeps of the world. My Kua Toans have powerful cities, with weird ziggurats, savage, mass sacrifices to their evil gods, special subterranean farms, arcane gates to sacred "temple cities" and a robust, highly developed economy. The Kua Toans also come in several different colours, with strange abilities and bizarre mutations.

Do you like the Kua Toans? Do you use them in your campaigns?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hi Shark,
I think they are always the second choice in the underdark - there's always a slightly more interesting foe to fight/discover. First there are the drow, everyone's favourite/least favourite bunch of bad guys/gals. Then the aboleth - weird and very dangerous. Then there are mind flayers, beholders, deep dragons, the list goes on. So I think Kuo-Toa always end up as bridesmaid.
I think WOTC have chosen Duergar as their "not-drow" interesting underdark race. But I do like me some Kuo-toa in my games. In fact, you've given me an idea for my nexy mini-campaign! Thanks Shark!

I don't hate the race it's just that due to their racial insanity over the log run they won't amount to much as a race. Now my recommendation as a replacement is the Sahuagin. No insanity to cause them any issues, evil through and through, with decent number of them in the world. Whose only real weakness is being blinded by Sunlight.

I like them, but I do find them a little redundant with the sahuagin. That said, my sinister fish-folk are mostly kuo-toa with a dash of sahuagin rather than the other way around.

I can't get my players to do the aquatic stuff. I've used Kuo-Toans before, but you know... most of my players have branded them Cthulhu-spawn and pretty much treat them as KOS. It's hard to have meaningful interaction with them short of the PC's becoming sacrificial offerings to their lobster-headed boob-bouncing claw-snapping goddess.

Quote from: tenbones;1060292I can't get my players to do the aquatic stuff. I've used Kuo-Toans before, but you know... most of my players have branded them Cthulhu-spawn and pretty much treat them as KOS. It's hard to have meaningful interaction with them short of the PC's becoming sacrificial offerings to their lobster-headed boob-bouncing claw-snapping goddess.

The problem is as written one really cannot have meaningful interactions with them imo. Between being insane and viewing all other non-Kuo-Tans as food and sacrificial victims well I don't blame many player groups to engage on KOS when it comes to them. Don;t even get me started on their female goddess name. Sound like a dev was short of ideas had bad gas and a loud stomach and named the goddess after that,

Quote from: SHARK;1060263In my own campaigns, I have expanded the Kua Toans with a more detailed religion, and a powerful empire of their own in the sunless deeps of the world. My Kua Toans have powerful cities, with weird ziggurats, savage, mass sacrifices to their evil gods, special subterranean farms, arcane gates to sacred "temple cities" and a robust, highly developed economy. The Kua Toans also come in several different colours, with strange abilities and bizarre mutations.

I'd love to hear more, SHARK!  Given your 1e-sensibilities, you might enjoy some other old-school oriented forums as well.  If you're interested, let me know and I'll send some pointers.

Quote from: SHARK;1060263Do you like the Kua Toans? Do you use them in your campaigns?

I haven't used them much at all outside the scope of D2.  Gygax's sense was of them as a race in decline, which I've not necessarily changed to date, but I'd love to hear more about your take on them.  Someone on an old-school board recently reminded me of this assessment of D2, which really resonates and makes me want to re-examine the module:

QuoteThis module is exemplary of the 70s-era design philosophy (also seen in, for instance, B2 and "Caverns of Thracia") of giving an interesting location and letting the DM (or even the players) decide how to use it. The descriptions of the Shrine are wonderfully atmospheric and evocative -- among the best in any Gygax module, I daresay -- and the mood of the place is palpable. Read this module to see why Gygax listed Lovecraft as one of the most direct influences on D&D in the AD&D DMG -- the Lovecraft influence is about as heavy as you can get without crossing the line into pure pastiche. The map is also more interesting and complex than in a lot of early modules, incorporating the third dimension more than any other TSR module of the era.

But what really struck a chord with me in this module (and what, ironically, many would likely cite as its biggest flaw) is the fact that there's no "plot" and no direction for how the party is supposed to interact with this area. Gygax simply details an interesting and unique location with some interesting and unique inhabitants and leaves it up to the people playing the game how they'll use it. Played "straight" (i.e. without the DM adding to or expanding anything) the Shrine can be a hack-n-slasher (though I imagine any party that tries a frontal assault will come out on the losing side -- there are a lot of kuo-toa here!) or a stealthy infiltration, and can even involve some mystery-solving as the players try to observe and copy the proper rituals to gain passage. A quick-witted and stealthy party with a mind to getting past the Shrine as quickly as possible can do so quickly, and not use 80% of the material in the module (as P&P's group apparently did) and that's a completely legitimate way to "beat" the module. But there are also tons of "hooks" in this module that can be expanded upon if the DM and/or players are interested -- diplomacy (involving up to three parties -- kuo-toa, drow, deep gnomes -- and possibly even more), mystery-solving (involving both the mysteries of the kuo-toa and hints towards the gradually unfolding mystery of the drow), recovery of treasure (either incidental or specific -- the players may be looking for specific items), rescue of prisoners (as above -- incidental or the players may be looking for specific people), the PCs might even become prisoners and need to escape -- all of these angles are there in the module, just waiting for a sympathetic group of players to pick up on them. This module is totally customizable -- it can take a small portion of a single session, or become an entire sub-campaign in itself; it can involve no combat at all or can be a massive slug-fest. It's all in the hands of the group playing the module, nothing is dictated by the author.

And all of this in 20pp, two of which are blank, and several of which are intro and random encounter tables. Proof that you don't need 96 or 64pp, or even 32pp, to have a classic module. Good good stuff!

Allan.

Kua-toa are a fun race and I have used them as a more lovecraftian "Not evil, just appallingly indifferent" race that have an undersea society. Totally jettisoned the 5e backstory that they are insane and imagine their gods into existence. Still a potential threat. But can be dealt with amiably if approached carefully. Many problems turned out to be disputes over fishing grounds. Or the Kua-toa just did not view those tasty surface mammal bipeds as "people" yet.

One thing the PCs learned quickly was that the less edible you looked the more likely they were to talk to you or at least ignore you. Full plate, helmets, masks, hoods, baggy robes, etc. You could tell what coastal towns had a local Kua-toa colony due to the way they dressed and possibly tell-tales like signs or decorations here and there in Kua-toan to remind them that these bipeds arent cattle to harvest.

In another campaign they were a re-occurring mystery we kept noticing along the coasts. Beachgoers vanishing. The entire population of two towns missing. And so on. This eventually lead us into the ocean depths and there was much "roll new character"ing. Most of which was not even the fish people's fault! The funniest was an early foray dive. "Ok. We can hold out breath about 3 minutes. Lets go!" 3 minutes down... "Ok. 3 minutes up. Time to head to the... gasp." Two PCs dead but the survivors were able to recover the bodies and have them raised. Much to their embarrassment. And funds as we made them pay us back for the raise fees + "nearly got us all killed!" tax. Then there was the thief's brilliant idea to lean into a giant clam to grab a huge pearl. You can likely guess how well that worked. See I had watched Marine Boy way back and I knew what was going to happen. "Nope. Im fine. I'll just wait wayyyyyy over here."

Quote from: tenbones;1060292I can't get my players to do the aquatic stuff. I've used Kuo-Toans before, but you know... most of my players have branded them Cthulhu-spawn and pretty much treat them as KOS. It's hard to have meaningful interaction with them short of the PC's becoming sacrificial offerings to their lobster-headed boob-bouncing claw-snapping goddess.

OOOH!  Let me see if I can get this without looking it up...

Blibdoolpoolp?

Quote from: Thornhammer;1060367OOOH!  Let me see if I can get this without looking it up...

Blibdoolpoolp?

As I said it sound like a overly loud gas bowel movement as a name. Or worse the name sounds like a leaky faucet.

Shark, your take on Kuo Toans sounds awesome.

Are you familiar with the Dungeon Master's Guild on DriveThruRPG?
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/dungeon-masters-guild-now-open

You could write your own 5e supplement and publish it for profit under the "official" banner of the DM's Guild.

Quote from: Thornhammer;1060367OOOH!  Let me see if I can get this without looking it up...

Blibdoolpoolp?

Bingo is your Name-o.

Quote from: sureshot;1060297The problem is as written one really cannot have meaningful interactions with them imo. Between being insane and viewing all other non-Kuo-Tans as food and sacrificial victims well I don't blame many player groups to engage on KOS when it comes to them. Don;t even get me started on their female goddess name. Sound like a dev was short of ideas had bad gas and a loud stomach and named the goddess after that,

The name was supposed to be onomatopoeaic, according to Gygax, answered in one of his Q&A threads.  The sound of something dropping into water and making a splash.  Enh.  He always had a unique take on names.

Quote from: tenbones;1060459Bingo is your Name-o.

Some of the deities in that book stood out because they were cool.  Some of them were memorable because tiddies.

I might be in the minority, but I'm almost exclusively a terra firma gamer, meaning I do not introduce aerial or underwater as the setting except in the most limited of situations.  So my use of Kua-Toans is about as common as Merfolk, Sauhaugin, and yes even Sharks, SHARK. But I also don't use bird people as either antagonists or protagonists.  But you know what, that is going to change.   This thread has motivated me to challenge the players with some underwater action and the attendant challenges.