Greetings!
I have always liked the Kua Toans. The wicked, lovecraftian fish guys that live in the deeps of the earth. In many ways, I thought the Kua Toans had a lot of untapped potential that WOTC generally ignored. I think that the Kua Toans can be expanded and made more challenging, and with more depth. It always surprised me why WOTC didn't expand on them more with some adventure modules or something. There's definitely room to grow there, you know?
In my own campaigns, I have expanded the Kua Toans with a more detailed religion, and a powerful empire of their own in the sunless deeps of the world. My Kua Toans have powerful cities, with weird ziggurats, savage, mass sacrifices to their evil gods, special subterranean farms, arcane gates to sacred "temple cities" and a robust, highly developed economy. The Kua Toans also come in several different colours, with strange abilities and bizarre mutations.
Do you like the Kua Toans? Do you use them in your campaigns?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Hi Shark,
I think they are always the second choice in the underdark - there's always a slightly more interesting foe to fight/discover. First there are the drow, everyone's favourite/least favourite bunch of bad guys/gals. Then the aboleth - weird and very dangerous. Then there are mind flayers, beholders, deep dragons, the list goes on. So I think Kuo-Toa always end up as bridesmaid.
I think WOTC have chosen Duergar as their "not-drow" interesting underdark race. But I do like me some Kuo-toa in my games. In fact, you've given me an idea for my nexy mini-campaign! Thanks Shark!
I don't hate the race it's just that due to their racial insanity over the log run they won't amount to much as a race. Now my recommendation as a replacement is the Sahuagin. No insanity to cause them any issues, evil through and through, with decent number of them in the world. Whose only real weakness is being blinded by Sunlight.
I like them, but I do find them a little redundant with the sahuagin. That said, my sinister fish-folk are mostly kuo-toa with a dash of sahuagin rather than the other way around.
I can't get my players to do the aquatic stuff. I've used Kuo-Toans before, but you know... most of my players have branded them Cthulhu-spawn and pretty much treat them as KOS. It's hard to have meaningful interaction with them short of the PC's becoming sacrificial offerings to their lobster-headed boob-bouncing claw-snapping goddess.
Quote from: tenbones;1060292I can't get my players to do the aquatic stuff. I've used Kuo-Toans before, but you know... most of my players have branded them Cthulhu-spawn and pretty much treat them as KOS. It's hard to have meaningful interaction with them short of the PC's becoming sacrificial offerings to their lobster-headed boob-bouncing claw-snapping goddess.
The problem is as written one really cannot have meaningful interactions with them imo. Between being insane and viewing all other non-Kuo-Tans as food and sacrificial victims well I don't blame many player groups to engage on KOS when it comes to them. Don;t even get me started on their female goddess name. Sound like a dev was short of ideas had bad gas and a loud stomach and named the goddess after that,
Quote from: SHARK;1060263In my own campaigns, I have expanded the Kua Toans with a more detailed religion, and a powerful empire of their own in the sunless deeps of the world. My Kua Toans have powerful cities, with weird ziggurats, savage, mass sacrifices to their evil gods, special subterranean farms, arcane gates to sacred "temple cities" and a robust, highly developed economy. The Kua Toans also come in several different colours, with strange abilities and bizarre mutations.
I'd love to hear more, SHARK! Given your 1e-sensibilities, you might enjoy some other old-school oriented forums as well. If you're interested, let me know and I'll send some pointers.
Quote from: SHARK;1060263Do you like the Kua Toans? Do you use them in your campaigns?
I haven't used them much at all outside the scope of D2. Gygax's sense was of them as a race in decline, which I've not necessarily changed to date, but I'd love to hear more about your take on them. Someone on an old-school board recently reminded me of this assessment of D2, which really resonates and makes me want to re-examine the module:
QuoteThis module is exemplary of the 70s-era design philosophy (also seen in, for instance, B2 and "Caverns of Thracia") of giving an interesting location and letting the DM (or even the players) decide how to use it. The descriptions of the Shrine are wonderfully atmospheric and evocative -- among the best in any Gygax module, I daresay -- and the mood of the place is palpable. Read this module to see why Gygax listed Lovecraft as one of the most direct influences on D&D in the AD&D DMG -- the Lovecraft influence is about as heavy as you can get without crossing the line into pure pastiche. The map is also more interesting and complex than in a lot of early modules, incorporating the third dimension more than any other TSR module of the era.
But what really struck a chord with me in this module (and what, ironically, many would likely cite as its biggest flaw) is the fact that there's no "plot" and no direction for how the party is supposed to interact with this area. Gygax simply details an interesting and unique location with some interesting and unique inhabitants and leaves it up to the people playing the game how they'll use it. Played "straight" (i.e. without the DM adding to or expanding anything) the Shrine can be a hack-n-slasher (though I imagine any party that tries a frontal assault will come out on the losing side -- there are a lot of kuo-toa here!) or a stealthy infiltration, and can even involve some mystery-solving as the players try to observe and copy the proper rituals to gain passage. A quick-witted and stealthy party with a mind to getting past the Shrine as quickly as possible can do so quickly, and not use 80% of the material in the module (as P&P's group apparently did) and that's a completely legitimate way to "beat" the module. But there are also tons of "hooks" in this module that can be expanded upon if the DM and/or players are interested -- diplomacy (involving up to three parties -- kuo-toa, drow, deep gnomes -- and possibly even more), mystery-solving (involving both the mysteries of the kuo-toa and hints towards the gradually unfolding mystery of the drow), recovery of treasure (either incidental or specific -- the players may be looking for specific items), rescue of prisoners (as above -- incidental or the players may be looking for specific people), the PCs might even become prisoners and need to escape -- all of these angles are there in the module, just waiting for a sympathetic group of players to pick up on them. This module is totally customizable -- it can take a small portion of a single session, or become an entire sub-campaign in itself; it can involve no combat at all or can be a massive slug-fest. It's all in the hands of the group playing the module, nothing is dictated by the author.
And all of this in 20pp, two of which are blank, and several of which are intro and random encounter tables. Proof that you don't need 96 or 64pp, or even 32pp, to have a classic module. Good good stuff!
Allan.
Kua-toa are a fun race and I have used them as a more lovecraftian "Not evil, just appallingly indifferent" race that have an undersea society. Totally jettisoned the 5e backstory that they are insane and imagine their gods into existence. Still a potential threat. But can be dealt with amiably if approached carefully. Many problems turned out to be disputes over fishing grounds. Or the Kua-toa just did not view those tasty surface mammal bipeds as "people" yet.
One thing the PCs learned quickly was that the less edible you looked the more likely they were to talk to you or at least ignore you. Full plate, helmets, masks, hoods, baggy robes, etc. You could tell what coastal towns had a local Kua-toa colony due to the way they dressed and possibly tell-tales like signs or decorations here and there in Kua-toan to remind them that these bipeds arent cattle to harvest.
In another campaign they were a re-occurring mystery we kept noticing along the coasts. Beachgoers vanishing. The entire population of two towns missing. And so on. This eventually lead us into the ocean depths and there was much "roll new character"ing. Most of which was not even the fish people's fault! The funniest was an early foray dive. "Ok. We can hold out breath about 3 minutes. Lets go!" 3 minutes down... "Ok. 3 minutes up. Time to head to the... gasp." Two PCs dead but the survivors were able to recover the bodies and have them raised. Much to their embarrassment. And funds as we made them pay us back for the raise fees + "nearly got us all killed!" tax. Then there was the thief's brilliant idea to lean into a giant clam to grab a huge pearl. You can likely guess how well that worked. See I had watched Marine Boy way back and I knew what was going to happen. "Nope. Im fine. I'll just wait wayyyyyy over here."
Quote from: tenbones;1060292I can't get my players to do the aquatic stuff. I've used Kuo-Toans before, but you know... most of my players have branded them Cthulhu-spawn and pretty much treat them as KOS. It's hard to have meaningful interaction with them short of the PC's becoming sacrificial offerings to their lobster-headed boob-bouncing claw-snapping goddess.
OOOH! Let me see if I can get this without looking it up...
Blibdoolpoolp?
Quote from: Thornhammer;1060367OOOH! Let me see if I can get this without looking it up...
Blibdoolpoolp?
As I said it sound like a overly loud gas bowel movement as a name. Or worse the name sounds like a leaky faucet.
Shark, your take on Kuo Toans sounds awesome.
Are you familiar with the Dungeon Master's Guild on DriveThruRPG?
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/dungeon-masters-guild-now-open
You could write your own 5e supplement and publish it for profit under the "official" banner of the DM's Guild.
Quote from: Thornhammer;1060367OOOH! Let me see if I can get this without looking it up...
Blibdoolpoolp?
Bingo is your Name-o.
Quote from: sureshot;1060297The problem is as written one really cannot have meaningful interactions with them imo. Between being insane and viewing all other non-Kuo-Tans as food and sacrificial victims well I don't blame many player groups to engage on KOS when it comes to them. Don;t even get me started on their female goddess name. Sound like a dev was short of ideas had bad gas and a loud stomach and named the goddess after that,
The name was supposed to be onomatopoeaic, according to Gygax, answered in one of his Q&A threads. The sound of something dropping into water and making a splash. Enh. He always had a unique take on names.
Quote from: tenbones;1060459Bingo is your Name-o.
Some of the deities in that book stood out because they were cool. Some of them were memorable because tiddies.
I might be in the minority, but I'm almost exclusively a terra firma gamer, meaning I do not introduce aerial or underwater as the setting except in the most limited of situations. So my use of Kua-Toans is about as common as Merfolk, Sauhaugin, and yes even Sharks, SHARK. But I also don't use bird people as either antagonists or protagonists. But you know what, that is going to change. This thread has motivated me to challenge the players with some underwater action and the attendant challenges.
Quote from: Ted;1060479I might be in the minority, but I'm almost exclusively a terra firma gamer, meaning I do not introduce aerial or underwater as the setting except in the most limited of situations. So my use of Kua-Toans is about as common as Merfolk, Sauhaugin, and yes even Sharks, SHARK. But I also don't use bird people as either antagonists or protagonists. But you know what, that is going to change. This thread has motivated me to challenge the players with some underwater action and the attendant challenges.
Oh I'm with you in this camp. But not from overt choice. I'm always luring, teasing, taunting my players that shit my go aquatic at the drop of a hat.
They do a good job of staying clear of large bodies of water.
Are Kuo Toa problematic because they mock the strange, disturbingly palid forms of those from certain remote fishing villages in New England?
Quote from: David Johansen;1060519Are Kuo Toa problematic because they mock the strange, disturbingly palid forms of those from certain remote fishing villages in New England?
I think they're problematic because they're inspired by Lovecraft, who was a bigot.
I've always just used Deep Ones.
Quote from: Ted;1060479I might be in the minority, but I'm almost exclusively a terra firma gamer, meaning I do not introduce aerial or underwater as the setting except in the most limited of situations. So my use of Kua-Toans is about as common as Merfolk, Sauhaugin, and yes even Sharks, SHARK. But I also don't use bird people as either antagonists or protagonists. But you know what, that is going to change. This thread has motivated me to challenge the players with some underwater action and the attendant challenges.
I rarely have underwater adventures, but I do have fucked up amphibians who raid towns and ships and anything that sinks below the water is never seen again.
In one campaign, the PCs decided to set up trebuchets and bombard the underwater lair relentlessly, forcing the Sauhaugin to attack the land where the PCs had been ready for the battle...but the PC way underestimated their foes' numbers. The end result was a Pyrrhic victory as the sea monsters lost their city and most of their warriors, but the town and all their forces were slaughtered. Most of the PCs died too. When resurrected, I gave them a fear of deep water as the sea monster gods had cursed them.
From a gameplay stand-point I've never understood the Kua-Toans. In the 1e AD&D universe of "fish men" we have had:
Locathah
Sauhagin
Kua-Toa
...and honest-to-Kthanid Deep Ones.
I wonder why Gary made a 3rd Fish Man race...(Deep Ones as a usable AD&D monster didn't come out until Deities & Demigods, and then only for the window that the unabridged book was available, but it's not like you can't find the stats out there).
I'm with Pundit and just call them/use Deep Ones. The surface world isn't overly bothered by them due to their ongoing conflict with the sauhagin (less advanced as a species, but hungrier) and the Namoreans (trident ray-guns and coral submarines), so they're kept plenty busy. They're more likely to operate Innsmouth-style than be some sort of coastal monster.
Love these guys! Who doesn't like cultist fish men wearing diapers. Love them so much I wrote a song about them:
SHRINE OF KUO TOA
(with sincere apologies to The Eagles)
In a dark cavern temple, near where the drow lair
Cold stink of the fishmen,rising up through the air
Up ahead in the distance, I saw a flickering light
My shield grew heavy and my sword was drawn
I had to prep for the fight
There they stood in the doorway
I heard the temple bell
And I was thinking to myself,
' I'm gonna send these fish freaks straight to hell
Then they lit up a huge torch, tried to scare me away
They were croaking down the corridor,
I thought I heard them say...
Welcome to Shrine of Kuo toa
Such an awful place
wonder how you'd taste?
Plenty of loot at the Shrine of Kuo toa
Any type of gear, you can find it here
Thier minds are tortured and twisted driving them all to bad ends
They got a goddess they call Blipdoolpoolp and she's got friends
How they kill on the altar....sweet blood to let
Some kill to remember, some kill to forget
So I called up the chieftain
'please release my guys
He said, 'we haven't had any captives here since CY 609
And still those voices are calling from far away,
Slit your throat in the middle of the night
I can hear them say...
Welcome to Shrine of Kuo toa
Such an awful place
wonder how you'd taste?
They livin' it up at the Shrine of Kuo toa
What a harsh surprise, bring your lucky die
Piercers on the ceiling,
The yellow mold so nice
And they said 'we are all just worshippers here, of our own device'
And in the chief whip's chambers,
They melee'd as they wished
They slash it with their vorpal blades
But they just can't kill the fish
Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back
To the place I was before
'Ho-there' said the fish man,(6)
We are hatched here to believe
You can worship any time you like
But you can never leave!
Quote from: Gorilla_Zod;1061135I'm with Pundit and just call them/use Deep Ones. The surface world isn't overly bothered by them due to their ongoing conflict with the sauhagin (less advanced as a species, but hungrier) and the Namoreans (trident ray-guns and coral submarines), so they're kept plenty busy. They're more likely to operate Innsmouth-style than be some sort of coastal monster.
Well, in Lion & Dragon I just call them "fish men", to avoid introducing overtly Lovecraftian terminology into a Medieval-Authentic setting.