Quote from: BalbinusFor actual play I do not need colour art.

Unless it helps me use it in play, and sometimes it does if it helps the book lie flat, I do not need hardback.

I do not need fiction.

I absolutely do not need core setting or rules elements intentionally left out for release in later books that may never happen.

I do not need supplements to cross correlate to the extent I use none of them or all of them.

I don't need most of the recent trends in mainstream game publishing in fact.

Except publishers dont do those things cuz they think they're way kewl.

They do them because big shiny, color-art filled hard covers get preferential dollars.

In other words, the "market" belies your point.

Gamers WANT those things more, so more of them are produced.

Chuck

Apart from the Mongoose stuff, everything you name is WW-style splatbook publishing. And with WW and Tribe 8 I would say that you definitely could run a game without later material. I actually know some Vampire groups who actually did that. It's not like the core book as a thin pamphlet...

And the collector's game argument doesn't ring true for me. Actually, in the case of WW splatbooks I know several players who just own the core book and the clan/tribe book of their favorite character. I don't know how common that is... In lots of other games, most of the books are bought by the GM. So the general idea isn't all that bad...

On the topic of the industry being bad for gaming, on another forum I was talking about how I hope that T5 would be done in a 3rb or similar format due to the various factors that make the 3rb format so perfect for gaming books.

Someone 'in the biz' told me that distributors would not carry 3rb format products so we might as well not even ask for them.

He admitted that 3rb had a lot of advantages for gamers, but maintained that distributors wouldn't like it so it wouldn't happen.

That sounds like the industry being in opposition to gamers interests and wants.

Flame away.

Quote from: BalbinusWhen I think of others I'll post them.

Zachary, I would compare the above more to zeppelins, for a while they looked like the future but they weren't.  The key difference is you can't battle an intelligent ape on the back of a copy of Nobilis with the same success.

It would get crowded, wouldn't it?  Hadn't thought of zeppelins before...definitely a more fun analogy, in any case.  Throw in some Nazi gold and a sky battle over Manhattan and we've got a deal.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckExcept publishers dont do those things cuz they think they're way kewl.

They do them because big shiny, color-art filled hard covers get preferential dollars.

In other words, the "market" belies your point.

Gamers WANT those things more, so more of them are produced.

Chuck

Chuck:
Balbinus is saying the exact thing you are - that "Gamers WANT those things more, so more of them are produced." He's also saying that this may be a bit of quicksand that companies are falling into.

-clash

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckExcept publishers dont do those things cuz they think they're way kewl.

They do them because big shiny, color-art filled hard covers get preferential dollars.

In other words, the "market" belies your point.

Gamers WANT those things more, so more of them are produced.

Chuck

No.  Distributors want those things more.  More or less, Distributors give large full color hardbacks preferential treatment to a small black and white book because they make more money on those, and don't want to have to carry the smaller books.

Businesses like Goodman Games show that there is definitely a very healthy market for smaller black and white RPG publications which don't fit the coffee table mold.  But, in general, those types of products don't make it to stores and never get a chance to sell because distributors more or less refuse to carry them.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstIt would get crowded, wouldn't it?  Hadn't thought of zeppelins before...definitely a more fun analogy, in any case.  Throw in some Nazi gold and a sky battle over Manhattan and we've got a deal.

Mybe we need giant copies of Nobilis, specifically for ape-battling?

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceMybe we need giant copies of Nobilis, specifically for ape-battling?

-clash

Well, then we're going to have to find a specially-reinforced coffee table, too.

Quote from: flyingmiceChuck:
Balbinus is saying the exact thing you are - that "Gamers WANT those things more, so more of them are produced." He's also saying that this may be a bit of quicksand that companies are falling into.

-clash

Exactly, if you check upthread Chuck I talk about the stuff you mention, I'm not saying publishers are evil anti-gaming people or anything at all like that.  I'm saying the current market rewards production of things that are often at best tangential to the hobby and which sometimes are actually detrimental to the hobby.

Primarily because I don't think the rpg buying public and the rpg playing public are as closely linked groups as is often assumed.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstWell, then we're going to have to find a specially-reinforced coffee table, too.

Not if the books are the coffee tables!

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceMybe we need giant copies of Nobilis, specifically for ape-battling?

-clash

Or shrinking rays, if we miniaturised ourselves to fight miniaturised intelligent apes it would work.

Quote from: BalbinusOr shrinking rays, if we miniaturised ourselves to fight miniaturised intelligent apes it would work.

Brilliant! And scientific!

-clash

Quote from: SosthenesApart from the Mongoose stuff, everything you name is WW-style splatbook publishing. And with WW and Tribe 8 I would say that you definitely could run a game without later material. I actually know some Vampire groups who actually did that. It's not like the core book as a thin pamphlet...

And the collector's game argument doesn't ring true for me. Actually, in the case of WW splatbooks I know several players who just own the core book and the clan/tribe book of their favorite character. I don't know how common that is... In lots of other games, most of the books are bought by the GM. So the general idea isn't all that bad...

I don't know the Tribe 8 supplements, but I wasn't very precise.

The issue with Tribe 8 was game fiction, the game was in many ways a novel with gaming bits embedded in it.  Readers loved that, as it was a good read, players hated it, as they couldn't access the rules rapidly in play.

One of the guys behind it commented a few times afterwards that it was really painful to him how many of their core fans evidently bought it only to read.  The relaunched second edition was in part an attempt to address that issue, they hadn't meant to produce a book for reading rather than playing, but they had, so with second edition they tried to bring it back to play.

On the White Wolf stuff, splats is only part of it, I'm also talking about the selling of in-game fluff to readers who want to follow the metaplot as a piece of fiction.  White Wolf explicitly marketed books to people who bought them for reading alone, as well as to gamers.

Quote from: BalbinusExactly, if you check upthread Chuck I talk about the stuff you mention, I'm not saying publishers are evil anti-gaming people or anything at all like that.  I'm saying the current market rewards production of things that are often at best tangential to the hobby and which sometimes are actually detrimental to the hobby.

Primarily because I don't think the rpg buying public and the rpg playing public are as closely linked groups as is often assumed.

It's all part of my marketing strategy. My books are ugly because I want to fend off those collectors and find the true, sincere, playing gamers who will appreciate my genius! Not because I'm a no-talent hack at layout! That's my story now, and I apply it retroactively!



-clash

Quote from: GabrielNo.  Distributors want those things more.  More or less, Distributors give large full color hardbacks preferential treatment to a small black and white book because they make more money on those, and don't want to have to carry the smaller books.

Businesses like Goodman Games show that there is definitely a very healthy market for smaller black and white RPG publications which don't fit the coffee table mold.  But, in general, those types of products don't make it to stores and never get a chance to sell because distributors more or less refuse to carry them.

A) Distributors giving your book preferential treatment is important.

B) It is not true that the people that BUY BOOKS do not prefer color hardbacks. This doesn't mean there aren't a lot of gamers out there who would prefer cheap black and white books, it just means that books that are color and hardback get preferential dollars.

Gamers buy them FIRST. They have prestige associated with them. And a lot of times that other black and white book that looks cool that the gamer plans to "get around to" after he's done reading his shiny new M&M 2nd edition doesnt get bought at all, or ends up getting picked up second hand.

Chuck