Quote from: KrakaJakTheir $90-100 buy-in is total crap.

Perhaps that's part of the whole thing that makes it work for D&D.  I mean, it's pointless to argue against D&D attracting the vast majority of its customers merely because of it's trademark, but the $90 minimum buy in to play the game probably helps keep it on top.

I mean, years ago, I remember some game designer commenting that a game needed to sell a corebook and two supplements to really be profitable.  With D&D, that's built in to the default set you have to buy.

Role-playing still is a pretty cheap hobby. Which can be a problem for the industry. 4 guys split a core set amongst them. Some might never buy anything again from you...

Yeah but most gamers buy shitloads of crap they never use.  The whole industry is predicated on demand bearing no relationship whatsoever to actual play.

Quote from: SosthenesRole-playing still is a pretty cheap hobby. Which can be a problem for the industry. 4 guys split a core set amongst them. Some might never buy anything again from you...

That really is my point in a nutshell, the hobby by its nature does not naturally support or even need an industry.

It follows that the industry can only prosper by genuinely adding value (by producing stuff so great we want it anyway) or by selling to people who are not really in our hobby but in a related hobby - to be more precise collectors.

I think a lot of companies, and I wouldn't include SJ Games currently actually, have opted for the collector market as opposed to adding value.  Adding value is hard and requires both creativity and playtesting, selling to collectors requires minimal playtesting if any as they won't be playing, instead it requires fluff and shiny things that may add nothing to play but make for a more attractive physical object.

In the long term I'm not that worried, as I think the collector market is unsustainable and I think a lot of companies are going to go bust to the extent they cater to that market, but I'm interested which is why I discuss it.

Just because a lot of people in this forum buy to collect, doesn't mean that this reflects the general situation. Lots of people collect guitars, doesn't meant that there aren't people out there playing them. Most of the people discussing here are a little above and beyond what's normally going on in the RPG world. Most groups play their thing, buy stuff for it and use it.

At least that's my experience. If somebody got statistics that prove otherwise, please offer them. Without that we're on the level of sophomore students talking about the benefits of a syndicalistic anarchy for the world.

The collapse is already happening and unless some new phenomenon appears to re-inject cash into the industry a lot of people are going to have to go and get proper jobs.

As for adding value, not for 1 cent a word you don't.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYeah but most gamers buy shitloads of crap they never use.  The whole industry is predicated on demand bearing no relationship whatsoever to actual play.

You know, that is what I was saying, but I took a great many more words.

The industry is predicated on demand bearing no relationship to actual play, that is the essence of what I am getting at here.

Could someone point me to this huge collection of coffee table RPGs supposedly flooding the market?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThe collapse is already happening and unless some new phenomenon appears to re-inject cash into the industry a lot of people are going to have to go and get proper jobs.

As for adding value, not for 1 cent a word you don't.

Quite, pretty much without exception every industry insider I have seen comment has commented that the industry is collapsing.  I have seen a wide range of industry professionals say it, but they do so less now because on rpg.net it always led to hysterical denunciations that anything could be wrong.

To be clear, that isn't what's happening in this thread, but it is what I have seen elsewhere.  There was one particular poster who on any thread that quoted an industry guy on this would then aggressively attack the idea until the thread died.

The other thing is that designers are leaving the hobby, not all, but some of the best.

Video games pay better, possibly because they are still a growth industry.

Quote from: SosthenesCould someone point me to this huge collection of coffee table RPGs supposedly flooding the market?

They arrive at the local FLGS under cover of night, delivered in identical glossy black vans with no identifying marks. Every week on the day after the shipment, before the cock crows, the dusty crowds come to chant "More! More!" under the pitiless gaze of the store owners, who refuse to let them in until 9AM. When the stores open, the faceless crowds surge forward with hoarse, gasping cries, and those too slow or too weak are crushed under their trampling feet. These coffee table books are kept in the secret back room, where an armed guard stands posessively. There they administer the toxin to which the books are - for a short while - the only palliative. Customers shuffle in blankly, drooling, in long empty-eyed lines, and shuffle out the back way, bowed under the weight of the piles of enormous, full color, gold leaf embossed books, written in incomprehensible runes in the purest Bergstromese, inlaid with precious stones cut in non-euclidean angles, with covers of rosewood, milky chalcedony, and translucently veined marble. They scuttle home to their parents' dimly lit basements to set these infamous books in splendor in their lonely fanes and temples, never to be touched again by mortal hand.

If you're going to get all snarky, do it with some style, please.

-clash

You know, a while back, I read an interesting book as to how the U.S. railroad companies competed against the automobile and air travel in the first half of the 20th century.  Really interesting stuff (especially where the railroad execs refused to change how they did anything and dreided the automobile) and sort of reminded me of the whole gaming hobby/industry discussions.  Two different forms of getting people somewhere--one a lot less flexible in a way, but already established.  Me?  I wish we had more trains, but I like my car.  Fiddlesticks, do I need a nap.

EDIT:  Clash, can I afford the marbled cover edition of Nobilis?  Or is it that if I have to ask, I can't afford it?

Quote from: flyingmiceIf you;re going to get all snarky, do it with some style, please.

Actually I really had to restrain myself. I honestly do want to know what kind of books are that superfluous. My FLGS isn't that L (and not that F), so I'm mostly doing my shopping via the Interwebs. I might miss the tubes with the crack addict supplements...

Quote from: SosthenesActually I really had to restrain myself. I honestly do want to know what kind of books are that superfluous. My FLGS isn't that L (and not that F), so I'm mostly doing my shopping via the Interwebs. I might miss the tubes with the crack addict supplements...

Here's some I would cite, note that many did well and have now died, but all games die in that sense in the end.

Seventh Sea
Legend of the Five Rings
Brave New World
Any of the old World of Darkness game lines
Tribe 8, sadly, as it could have been much better and there were great ideas
Mongoose's new edition of Runequest
Almost anything else by Mongoose

When I think of others I'll post them.

Zachary, I would compare the above more to zeppelins, for a while they looked like the future but they weren't.  The key difference is you can't battle an intelligent ape on the back of a copy of Nobilis with the same success.

Quote from: BalbinusHere's some I would cite, note that many did well and have now died, but all games die in that sense in the end.

Seventh Sea
Legend of the Five Rings
Brave New World
Any of the old World of Darkness game lines
Tribe 8, sadly, as it could have been much better and there were great ideas
Mongoose's new edition of Runequest
Almost anything else by Mongoose

When I think of others I'll post them.

Zachary, I would compare the above more to zeppelins, for a while they looked like the future but they weren't.  The key difference is you can't battle an intelligent ape on the back of a copy of Nobilis with the same success.

Even though I like the Last Unicorn Games Star Trek RPGs, they definitely fit the bill of coffee table RPGs, along with Lord of the Rings, and the Decipher Trek game.  All were pretty much designed with looks first, functionality as an afterthought.