Quote from: flyingmiceChuck:
Balbinus is saying the exact thing you are - that "Gamers WANT those things more, so more of them are produced." He's also saying that this may be a bit of quicksand that companies are falling into.

-clash

It might be quicksand, but its' the quicksand that's between you and the water hole during dry season.

If companies are falling into it, it's because they have no choice.

Companies have no choice but to make books that appeal to the people who BUY BOOKS.

As the OP pointed out, there's plenty of gamers who are not book buyers.

This is all well and good but they are ignored when companies sit down to MAKE a book because they should be.

Chuck

Quote from: flyingmiceBrilliant! And scientific!

-clash

Gentlemen!  To the Shrinkifier Ray!  And let us hope--For The Earth's Sake--that Baron Von Sturmunddrang has not yet reached it...

EDIT:  Wait!  Where did the Professor go?

Quote from: BalbinusOn the White Wolf stuff, splats is only part of it, I'm also talking about the selling of in-game fluff to readers who want to follow the metaplot as a piece of fiction.  White Wolf explicitly marketed books to people who bought them for reading alone, as well as to gamers.

I feel I should point out that nWoD is refreshingly metaplot-free.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckAs the OP pointed out, there's plenty of gamers who are not book buyers.

This is all well and good but they are ignored when companies sit down to MAKE a book because they should be.

There isn't a single model for how to run the business, or how to push your product into the market.

Yes, if you don't make a book that is hardcover color then you lose out on some sales from people who want hardcover color.

If you don't make a book that promotes play heavily then you get less word of mouth from people excited by (and talking about) their actual play.

There's plenty of room (IMO) for people to disagree about which is more important for their particular product.

Quote from: PaulChapmanI feel I should point out that nWoD is refreshingly metaplot-free.

Hence my use of past tense, apologies if I was unclear.  I think the NWoD a far better product than the OWoD on several fronts.

Quote from: PaulChapmanI feel I should point out that nWoD is refreshingly metaplot-free.

Agreed, and a much better mechanic too. While I have no use for the splats, the core NWoD book is excellent.

-clash

Quote from: TonyLBThere isn't a single model for how to run the business, or how to push your product into the market.

Yes, if you don't make a book that is hardcover color then you lose out on some sales from people who want hardcover color.

If you don't make a book that promotes play heavily then you get less word of mouth from people excited by (and talking about) their actual play.

There's plenty of room (IMO) for people to disagree about which is more important for their particular product.

This is the thing I like the most about the Forge - its emphasis on actual play and word of mouth. We disagree on other things, but on this we agree.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceThis is the thing I like the most about the Forge - its emphasis on actual play and word of mouth. We disagree on other things, but on this we agree.

-clash

Quite, I think that is an absolute good thing.

I also really like that SJ Games has, I understand, a more focussed playtest policy now.  The old way using the Pyramid fora led to great proofing but I'm not sure many of those guys were actually playing the games being tested.

Quote from: flyingmiceThis is the thing I like the most about the Forge - its emphasis on actual play and word of mouth. We disagree on other things, but on this we agree.

It's not like a small-time publisher has any other options. If Steven Spielberg does Dogme, it's a choice. If I do, ladee-frickin-da...

Quote from: SosthenesIt's not like a small-time publisher has any other options. If Steven Spielberg does Dogme, it's a choice. If I do, ladee-frickin-da...

LOL! Too true!

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceThis is the thing I like the most about the Forge - its emphasis on actual play and word of mouth. We disagree on other things, but on this we agree.

-clash

Ok... this has come up several times now and it's grating to me frankly.

I dont think the Forge is any more (or less) focused on "actual play" than d20 publishers.

As Tony pointed out, there's a lot of customers out there, and obviously SOME PEOPLE love splat books, crunch, feats (yes I know, gasp) and even variant settings.

The move toward shiny, color and hardback among d20 publishers has nothing to do with moving away from "actual play" and toward collectors, that was a side benefit.

What it is about is making your product stand out from the OTHER GUY'S setting or variant rules splatbook so that you get preferential treatment from distributors and preferential dollars from customers.

This also accounts for the rise in licensed products. A fantasy setting? Yawn. You're doing a licensed Conan setting in full color, hardback with glossy paper? YAY!!!

The way businesses are reacting has everything to do with where customer money tends to flow the easiest and those customers are gamers. Hence, this division between what d20 publishers do and those Forge guys who are all about "actual play" is just bunk.

I mean, I *OWN* Dogs in the Vineyard but I *RUN* d20 games exclusively. So obviously the Forge has appealed to the collector in ME and not the actual player.

Chuck

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck...this division between what d20 publishers do and those Forge guys who are all about "actual play" is just bunk.
Chuck

I don't think it's bunk to a lot of online people.  The phenomenon we're talking about it a perception, and since Go-Play Story-Gamers are all over the net, making it look like they're all about "actual play" while those of us who play OGL games are not having fun.

Honestly, I agree with you that tons of folks are about actual play, it's just since the Forgies (for lack of a better term) use a particular jargon they're much more identifiable.

Now I'm replying to the thread in general:

I think the industry is rather healthy for such a niche market.  It's certainly healthier than SASS, dollhouse makers, and live Opera.  It's a niche market catering to a hobby that attracts a certain type of person.  

There are lots of different gamers, but we're all still gamers.

Quote from: joewolzI think the industry is rather healthy for such a niche market.  It's certainly healthier than SASS, dollhouse makers, and live Opera.

As someone who attends the opera at least once a season, I find that last suggestion highly amusing.  

!i!

Quote from: PaulChapmanAssuming I'm not already asking that question, why would I ask it here?

I'm not saying you should ask it here; I'm saying you should ask it to yourselves.

Your comments here regarding GURPS 4th implied you took great pride in the fact that your new format is appealing to what CURRENT gamers like, but the real question is if pandering to what the die-hard collectionists wank off to, which is certainly the easier route to quick short-term profit, does not in fact end up hurting you in the sense that it may be exactly the opposite of what would work to draw in new players in the long-term.

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