Quote from: SHARK on May 22, 2021, 03:45:35 PM

Quote from: Brigman on May 21, 2021, 09:22:56 PM
Shark, what OG Ravenloft supplements would you most recommend?

Dropbear, thanks for the head's up.  I hadn't looked at it; I will.

Greetings!

Hi Brigman! Yes, well, in regards to OG Ravenloft, the Black Box, as well as any of the "Van Richten's Guidebooks." I think I have most of them; Vampires, Liches, Mummies, Werewolves. I think there were like half a dozen of them. To be more specific, I will look for them in my collection and update here. I would think, however, pretty much any and all supplements for Ravenloft could be useful and inspiring.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The Van Richten's Guides are excellent, and not just for Ravenloft/gothic horror. I prefer the Compendium volumes, as they contain material not found in the originals. Highly recommend.

The Van Richten's Guides:

2E:
Vampires, Ghosts, the Lich, Werebeasts, The Created (golems), The Ancient Dead (mummies), Fiends, The Vistani, Witches (including hags, and only published in Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium, Volume III)

3E: The Walking Dead, The Shadow Fey, The Mists (unpublished and released as free download)

For those who are interested, the 2e Van Richten's Guides are all pretty padded, with big margins, lots of wasted page, and lots of superfluous text. They tend to repeat all the abilities of the monster, just with many more words. But they do have some charm, with some interesting stories about hunters, and a greatly expanded list of options for further developing (and empowering) the monster. Best to worst:

My favorite is Ancient Dead. It's not perfect, but the flavor text is pretty good, and they take the basic idea of a mummy and make it an archetype that can cross cultural boundaries. Good list of powers.

Vampire is solid, but not terribly original.

Created has some good ideas, but its insistence that golems always and inevitably turn evil takes away from the moral ambiguity that makes Frankenstein great.

Liches and Fiends are pretty decent, but not as widely usable -- by their very nature, you'll typically only encounter one or maybe two in an entire campaign.

Ghosts is on the weak side, with a nice intro vignette that demonstrates powers that are never spelled out in the book, more excess verbiage than usual, a fairly predictable list of powers, and the section on mediums feels like an incomplete first draft.

Werebeasts is bad. It's the only book that doesn't really add much to the core monster. Want sires and bloodlines and nobles and corrupted spirits of nature? Nope.

I don't care that they turned Roma into monsters, but even without that the Vistani book is bad. They're boring, inconsistent, and treated far too much as a plot device.

A lot of grief would be avoided if one simply looked at all books as resources, not canon, and certainly not in conflict with how you, personally, want to see a setting or game done. I don't have the Ravenloft book (yet), but I'm guessing that it doesn't force a particular approach to horror on you. The majority of the flavor is still up to the DM.

Take Tasha's as an example. I don't own it, but some are considering it the beginning of "5.5" or D&D: The Woke Edition. I personally find that irritating, but rather than get riled up about it, I could purchase the book with the idea of looking at it as options to use if I want. I don't have to change the tone of my game, or use anything I don't want to. It is software, not hardware.

Similarly with the ideas of, say, removing racial ability bonuses. I think it is kind of silly, unrealistic, and frankly unnecessary, causing more harm than good in terms of the underlying goal (like a lot of woke stuff), but you can spin it differently and see it as an optional approach that de-tangles people from always choosing optimized race-class combinations. Meaning, it opens the game up a bit more and, like ability score generation, can be see as an optional rule.

Where things might get concerning--and we're not there yet--is if WotC publishes new core rules that exclude certain options to force a certain style on the game. An example of that might be orcs as PC races in the PHB (which is fine) but not as monsters in the MM (which is not).

I personally think the best way forward is to keep "classic D&D" as the default, but include options for alternate approaches. So in the PHB, they could have orcs as a PC ace, with descriptions of how they are in different setting worlds, and a very necessary disclaimer, "Do what you will in your own game." That doesn't take anything away from traditionalists, but it still provides options for the wokists.

The problem is extremists on both sides: The wokesters who want to erase everything from the past and the angry trads who want everything to stay the same. Unfortunately, at least on internet message boards, a large portion of people fall into one extreme or the other. I'm not sure that represents the player base as a whole, though.

Quote from: Daztur on May 14, 2021, 06:12:28 AMFor the hobby at a whole we kinda need both D&D bringing in new players AND D&D alienating people so we don't get the monotony of just one game.

From where I stand, I want WotC to shit the bed more, not less. Combat wheelchairs, gay propaganda 24/7, safety tools, out of control political correctness, etc should only be the beginning.

Like everything else in culture, there's going to be greater and greater division. There's every reason to believe the acceleration is accelerating.

I'm looking forward to "segregated" conventions. AKA, gaming cons specifically for their side of the cultural divide with explicit exclusion of others. It's a clarity and honesty needed so everyone knows where they're welcome or not.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 19, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 19, 2021, 08:13:31 PM
Most pre-ordered D&D book ever. Currently the #4 Best Seller in the nation. Not for RPG books...for ALL books.

Based on actual sales to customers, or based on sales to distributors/stores?

Sales to customers, through Amazon.

Quote from: Omega on May 19, 2021, 10:36:11 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 19, 2021, 08:26:49 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 19, 2021, 08:13:31 PM
Most pre-ordered D&D book ever. Currently the #4 Best Seller in the nation. Not for RPG books...for ALL books.

Based on actual sales to customers, or based on sales to distributors/stores?

Outrage marketing at its best.

They got people to complain and that attracts others in swarms to buy the book to see if its as bad as they claim. And quite often, SUCKER!!!!! its not as bad because they deliberately hyped things that werent all that prominent just to get free advertising. AND it makes anyone complaining look like perfect examples of "toxic" intolerant fans. Win Win Win for WOkeTC

Scalpers are also probably again buying it in droves looking to make a profit which is over-inflating  the numbers. I knew one person who pre-ordered 10 copies of Tasha so they could sell it at 2x the price.

Believe it or not, most players don't even read stuff on the Internet about this sort of thing.

It's popular because Ravenloft is popular and the prior 5e ravenloft book was their most popular adventure.

I looked through it at the bookstore and it looked very good to me also. It's really not about all the bullshit people on this board talk about. It's just a solid good setting book with other cool fluff and mechanical stuff in it.

Quote from: Spinachcat on May 22, 2021, 10:13:13 PM

Quote from: Daztur on May 14, 2021, 06:12:28 AMFor the hobby at a whole we kinda need both D&D bringing in new players AND D&D alienating people so we don't get the monotony of just one game.

From where I stand, I want WotC to shit the bed more, not less. Combat wheelchairs, gay propaganda 24/7, safety tools, out of control political correctness, etc should only be the beginning.

Like everything else in culture, there's going to be greater and greater division. There's every reason to believe the acceleration is accelerating.

I'm looking forward to "segregated" conventions. AKA, gaming cons specifically for their side of the cultural divide with explicit exclusion of others. It's a clarity and honesty needed so everyone knows where they're welcome or not.

Agreed. Paizo filled the 3rd <-> 4th edition market gap. As WotC moves in to 6⁶⁶th edition(ed: LOL), the more WotC steps on the gas of alienating players who want to play a nonpolitical fantasy game steeped in fantasy tropes, the more there is a market opportunity for aspiring indies.

Quote from: Zelen on May 22, 2021, 11:06:38 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on May 22, 2021, 10:13:13 PM

Quote from: Daztur on May 14, 2021, 06:12:28 AMFor the hobby at a whole we kinda need both D&D bringing in new players AND D&D alienating people so we don't get the monotony of just one game.

From where I stand, I want WotC to shit the bed more, not less. Combat wheelchairs, gay propaganda 24/7, safety tools, out of control political correctness, etc should only be the beginning.

Like everything else in culture, there's going to be greater and greater division. There's every reason to believe the acceleration is accelerating.

I'm looking forward to "segregated" conventions. AKA, gaming cons specifically for their side of the cultural divide with explicit exclusion of others. It's a clarity and honesty needed so everyone knows where they're welcome or not.

Agreed. Paizo filled the 3rd <-> 4th edition market gap. As WotC moves in to 6⁶⁶th edition(ed: LOL), the more WotC steps on the gas of alienating players who want to play a nonpolitical fantasy game steeped in fantasy tropes, the more there is a market opportunity for aspiring indies.

Again, the book you guys are bitching about as the sign of a decline is selling fantastic. No book Paizo has ever published even at their height of sales (including their core books) has ever reached #4 in the nation for even an hour. And this is for a non-core side setting book 7 years into the edition. If this is "shitting the bed" then what would success look like?

Quote from: Mistwell on May 22, 2021, 11:18:15 PM
Again, the book you guys are bitching about as the sign of a decline is selling fantastic. No book Paizo has ever published even at their height of sales (including their core books) has ever reached #4 in the nation for even an hour. And this is for a non-core side setting book 7 years into the edition. If this is "shitting the bed" then what would success look like?

I'm actually not bitching about the book, since I haven't read it. Just stating my general preference for WotC's stance and activities going forward.

Quote from: Pat on May 22, 2021, 05:18:57 PM
For those who are interested, the 2e Van Richten's Guides are all pretty padded, with big margins, lots of wasted page, and lots of superfluous text. They tend to repeat all the abilities of the monster, just with many more words. But they do have some charm, with some interesting stories about hunters, and a greatly expanded list of options for further developing (and empowering) the monster. Best to worst:

My favorite is Ancient Dead. It's not perfect, but the flavor text is pretty good, and they take the basic idea of a mummy and make it an archetype that can cross cultural boundaries. Good list of powers.

Vampire is solid, but not terribly original.

Created has some good ideas, but its insistence that golems always and inevitably turn evil takes away from the moral ambiguity that makes Frankenstein great.

Liches and Fiends are pretty decent, but not as widely usable -- by their very nature, you'll typically only encounter one or maybe two in an entire campaign.

Ghosts is on the weak side, with a nice intro vignette that demonstrates powers that are never spelled out in the book, more excess verbiage than usual, a fairly predictable list of powers, and the section on mediums feels like an incomplete first draft.

Werebeasts is bad. It's the only book that doesn't really add much to the core monster. Want sires and bloodlines and nobles and corrupted spirits of nature? Nope.

I don't care that they turned Roma into monsters, but even without that the Vistani book is bad. They're boring, inconsistent, and treated far too much as a plot device.

These were some of the most useful books I ever used in a game. Lots of stuff in their to inspire adventures, lots of great optional stuff, and tons of ways to customize monsters, make them more interesting. Couldn't disagree more with this assessment

Quote from: Mistwell on May 22, 2021, 11:18:15 PM
Again, the book you guys are bitching about as the sign of a decline is selling fantastic. No book Paizo has ever published even at their height of sales (including their core books) has ever reached #4 in the nation for even an hour. And this is for a non-core side setting book 7 years into the edition. If this is "shitting the bed" then what would success look like?

How many total copies is selling fantastic in your mind? Certainly, your only evidence is not the sales rank?

It hit Amazon only five days ago. It is dropping fast now at #15. It is the second lowest reviewed product in the entire top 100.

You can show up with your tea, your pinky hanging out, and your "you guys" lecturing, but anyone with even a little intelligence can see what you are doing. Curious, what was the best thing you liked when you read your copy?

Quote from: Mistwell on May 22, 2021, 11:18:15 PM

Quote from: Zelen on May 22, 2021, 11:06:38 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on May 22, 2021, 10:13:13 PM

Quote from: Daztur on May 14, 2021, 06:12:28 AMFor the hobby at a whole we kinda need both D&D bringing in new players AND D&D alienating people so we don't get the monotony of just one game.

From where I stand, I want WotC to shit the bed more, not less. Combat wheelchairs, gay propaganda 24/7, safety tools, out of control political correctness, etc should only be the beginning.

Like everything else in culture, there's going to be greater and greater division. There's every reason to believe the acceleration is accelerating.

I'm looking forward to "segregated" conventions. AKA, gaming cons specifically for their side of the cultural divide with explicit exclusion of others. It's a clarity and honesty needed so everyone knows where they're welcome or not.

Agreed. Paizo filled the 3rd <-> 4th edition market gap. As WotC moves in to 6⁶⁶th edition(ed: LOL), the more WotC steps on the gas of alienating players who want to play a nonpolitical fantasy game steeped in fantasy tropes, the more there is a market opportunity for aspiring indies.

Again, the book you guys are bitching about as the sign of a decline is selling fantastic. No book Paizo has ever published even at their height of sales (including their core books) has ever reached #4 in the nation for even an hour. And this is for a non-core side setting book 7 years into the edition. If this is "shitting the bed" then what would success look like?

That's the same argument Disney defenders gave about The Last Jedi.  And look where the SW franchise is right now (Its hottest property is a streamed series that won't even return for another year.  The movies are dead).  Ravenloft is getting bought based off of the name and the last module.  The test will be how the next Ravenloft material sells, especially if it is marketed as more of the "new" style...

Quote from: Spinachcat on May 22, 2021, 10:13:13 PM
I'm looking forward to "segregated" conventions. AKA, gaming cons specifically for their side of the cultural divide with explicit exclusion of others. It's a clarity and honesty needed so everyone knows where they're welcome or not.

   I'd typically consider this an overstatement, but after a couple of threads posted at TBP yesterday, I don't even know if everyone's involved in the same hobby despite playing the same games ...

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 23, 2021, 07:48:30 AM

Quote from: Pat on May 22, 2021, 05:18:57 PM
For those who are interested, the 2e Van Richten's Guides are all pretty padded, with big margins, lots of wasted page, and lots of superfluous text. They tend to repeat all the abilities of the monster, just with many more words. But they do have some charm, with some interesting stories about hunters, and a greatly expanded list of options for further developing (and empowering) the monster. Best to worst:

My favorite is Ancient Dead. It's not perfect, but the flavor text is pretty good, and they take the basic idea of a mummy and make it an archetype that can cross cultural boundaries. Good list of powers.

Vampire is solid, but not terribly original.

Created has some good ideas, but its insistence that golems always and inevitably turn evil takes away from the moral ambiguity that makes Frankenstein great.

Liches and Fiends are pretty decent, but not as widely usable -- by their very nature, you'll typically only encounter one or maybe two in an entire campaign.

Ghosts is on the weak side, with a nice intro vignette that demonstrates powers that are never spelled out in the book, more excess verbiage than usual, a fairly predictable list of powers, and the section on mediums feels like an incomplete first draft.

Werebeasts is bad. It's the only book that doesn't really add much to the core monster. Want sires and bloodlines and nobles and corrupted spirits of nature? Nope.

I don't care that they turned Roma into monsters, but even without that the Vistani book is bad. They're boring, inconsistent, and treated far too much as a plot device.

These were some of the most useful books I ever used in a game. Lots of stuff in their to inspire adventures, lots of great optional stuff, and tons of ways to customize monsters, make them more interesting. Couldn't disagree more with this assessment

So you think they don't greatly expand the options for each monster, and don't have any interesting monster hunter stories?