I was wondering, with so many callouts to Talislanta in the thread about games one has never played but would like to, which version most people are familiar with and has sparked their desire to play?

I have played and run every edition, and I feel that my most enjoyable experience was actually with 2nd Edition. Third Edition wasn't too bad either. 4th Edition seems to be most Tal fans' Holy Grail, but I did not like the world changes based upon the writers' personal campaign events, myself. And 5th Edition, despite myself being somewhat involved in its production, turned out to be a complete mess. I was embarrassed to see I was listed as an editor for several books after MP seemed to have either missed or ignored the majority of my edits.

Edit: I'm following Talislanta for 5th Edition very closely, but I'm completely uninterestd in a 5E rules set for Talislanta and won't use it. Thankfully, they have decided to dual-stat it with Action Table-esque mechanics in line with those featured in Savage Lands.

I still vastly prefer 1e over any other, but 2e/3e aren't too far down: this is mostly a nostalgic and smaller form-factor opinion. And the fact that you can get a POD hardcover of 1e for ~$25 from DriveThru is a nice bonus. 2e/3e are nice as digital supplements, but the $40 and $70 cost for those POD hardcovers are just enough to bump them down my scale. I only ever ran 1e/2e/3e, and jumped off the Tal wagon with 4e, and have no interest in anything after 3e (though I'm familiar with 4e and beyond: enough to know I dislike the system changes).

Talislanta is one of those games that simply was known as a meme from the Dragon Magazine ads that ran forever. Everyone knows the ads, but relatively few people actually played the game. Much like Skyrealms of Jorune.

Those of us that did play the game, we few, have pretty much stuck with it. I don't know anyone that has played that doesn't own most if not all the editions (and now there is no reason for anyone to not own them since they're all FREE on Talislanta.com - except for Talislanta: The Savage Lands and the new upcoming one).

It is the red-headed step-child of gaming. And I love red-heads.

I like all of the editions for different reasons. My favorite is 2e or 3e. Though 4e is very good. 5e is an editorial disaster but there are some nice conceptual things in there like Lifepath etc, it is my least favorite, and I technically only use it an "Unearthed Arcana" and use some of the mechanics from it. And I have tons of love for Talislanta: The Savage Lands because I was a writer on it.

Quote from: tenbones on March 09, 2022, 10:42:42 AM
Talislanta is one of those games that simply was known as a meme from the Dragon Magazine ads that ran forever. Everyone knows the ads, but relatively few people actually played the game. Much like Skyrealms of Jorune.

Those of us that did play the game, we few, have pretty much stuck with it. I don't know anyone that has played that doesn't own most if not all the editions (and now there is no reason for anyone to not own them since they're all FREE on Talislanta.com - except for Talislanta: The Savage Lands and the new upcoming one).

It is the red-headed step-child of gaming. And I love red-heads.

I like all of the editions for different reasons. My favorite is 2e or 3e. Though 4e is very good. 5e is an editorial disaster but there are some nice conceptual things in there like Lifepath etc, it is my least favorite, and I technically only use it an "Unearthed Arcana" and use some of the mechanics from it. And I have tons of love for Talislanta: The Savage Lands because I was a writer on it.

You were? That's awesome! Which parts did you write, if you don't mind me asking?

Quote from: rhialto on March 09, 2022, 07:58:19 AM
I still vastly prefer 1e over any other, but 2e/3e aren't too far down: this is mostly a nostalgic and smaller form-factor opinion. And the fact that you can get a POD hardcover of 1e for ~$25 from DriveThru is a nice bonus. 2e/3e are nice as digital supplements, but the $40 and $70 cost for those POD hardcovers are just enough to bump them down my scale. I only ever ran 1e/2e/3e, and jumped off the Tal wagon with 4e, and have no interest in anything after 3e (though I'm familiar with 4e and beyond: enough to know I dislike the system changes).

I didn't mind the system changes for 4E that much, Codex Magicus kinda cleared off the dislike I had for the magic system's foibles. I hated the background changes with the Kang Civil War and the Kang Empire. But it stuck, so I played it with the people that wanted to exclusively do 4E.

Quote from: rhialto on March 09, 2022, 07:58:19 AM
2e/3e are nice as digital supplements, but the $40 and $70 cost for those POD hardcovers are just enough to bump them down my scale.

On that note specifically, I guess I got lucky because when I picked up the hardback POD of 2E it was significantly less than it is now. I paid 24.99 for it.

And as for 3E, I won't buy that in POD until they use the scan that I provided. A friend put in some meticulous work to correct the fact that the scan they base their POD off of is TERRIBLE. I was advised it won't be used unless the file is modified and adjusted to be up to spec with the printer's specs. I cannot do that myself with the software I have (not to mention the limited knowledge) so until I find a taker, the nearly perfect copy will sit in limbo I guess. And the blurry choppy scan will be the POD.

Quote from: Dropbear on March 09, 2022, 12:34:01 PM
You were? That's awesome! Which parts did you write, if you don't mind me asking?

A lot of the races - (most of them I think? but not all of them). A lot of the regions and locations of interest, a lot of the monsters, flora and fauna.

Quote from: tenbones on March 09, 2022, 12:44:05 PM

Quote from: Dropbear on March 09, 2022, 12:34:01 PM
You were? That's awesome! Which parts did you write, if you don't mind me asking?

A lot of the races - (most of them I think? but not all of them). A lot of the regions and locations of interest, a lot of the monsters, flora and fauna.

This forum needs a thumbs up. Great work!

the real bummer about that project is how much love we put into it only to have Stewart's passing at such a critical time suddenly hang an obvious cloud over everything. And Stewart was  someone I was really rooting for with Nocturnal Studios and was a fan of his since White Wolf Magazine dropped. It was exciting to finally work with him - as he and Mark Rein-Hagen almost collaborated on a project for White Wolf Games but it fell through. So it was cool that he was going to publish this edition and we had further plans that didn't come to fruition for various reasons.

The new Talislanta seems to be shaping up - the art is gorgeous. I'm *really* happy they decided to dual-stat it. I'm not involved in it.

Quote from: tenbones on March 09, 2022, 11:39:42 PM
the real bummer about that project is how much love we put into it only to have Stewart's passing at such a critical time suddenly hang an obvious cloud over everything. And Stewart was  someone I was really rooting for with Nocturnal Studios and was a fan of his since White Wolf Magazine dropped. It was exciting to finally work with him - as he and Mark Rein-Hagen almost collaborated on a project for White Wolf Games but it fell through. So it was cool that he was going to publish this edition and we had further plans that didn't come to fruition for various reasons.

The new Talislanta seems to be shaping up - the art is gorgeous. I'm *really* happy they decided to dual-stat it. I'm not involved in it.

Some of the recent pieces seem a little off. I'm not sure about the sexy Ur for example, lol. But overall I agree, it's mostly great stuff!

Quote from: tenbones on March 09, 2022, 10:42:42 AM
Talislanta is one of those games that simply was known as a meme from the Dragon Magazine ads that ran forever. Everyone knows the ads, but relatively few people actually played the game. Much like Skyrealms of Jorune.

That's me.

I remember the ad, "No elves!" because I thought to myself "I like elves." And since I was fine with D&D, I never checked out Talislanta.

you should look at it.

The setting is awesome. The system is even *better*. And while people here might quibble about editions. ALL of them are 99% compatible. There are a few differences between them - like 3e has templated archetypes. The primary differences are the magic-systems, but I've pointed out in other threads ALL the magic systems could exist simultaneously if one was so inclined.

As i am always interrested in weird settings, and i got an eye on Talislanta for a long time. Could someone give me a breakdown of the editions?

So the editions are unified around a singular task resolution system that doesn't change at all between editions

Stats + Skill vs. Difficulty = Action Table Results.



Stats - All stats are whole numbers. Not derived. 0 = Average and range from -5 to +5.
Skills - Have no effective limit.
Difficulty - Modifiers assigned by the GM based on environment, circumstances, gear, or whatever else the GM and Players can come up with.

That's it. Everything else from special attacks (like Multiple actions, charging attacks, ritual magic, whatever) come from this basic system.

Okay - the quick rundown...

1e - Archetypes + skill-based progression. Magic is a skill based system and there are a variety of Magical Skills from Alchemy to overt spellcasting to operating magical devices. Spells in 1e are generalized "powers" that have sub-categories in them that effectively add modifiers to your roll to produce discrete effects.

2e - Archetypes + skill-based progression. Skills are much more refined (granular) but the system is still very lightweight. The differences between 1e and 2e are merely ones of granular detail. 99% of 1e is covered and extrapolated on in 2e, which is why many people love 2e. It added more detail and a tad of mechanical heft that 1e didn't have. Magic is still skill based but has some other options. This editions gets into the nitty-gritty on building up the world and sandbox campaigning in it.

3e The WotC Edition - Archetypes + Level-based progression. This edition is a departure from the previous two in two major ways. The Archetypes bundle established skill packages (which remain largely unchanged) and create a unified "leveling" system where skills within the total archetype progress as you Level Up. This creates a bifurcation in skills that *aren't* part of your package (which denotes qualities of Primary skills which go up +1 per level, Secondary skills which go up +1 every other level) - and anything you learn on your own (Tertiary skills) which never go up unless you pay for the skill with your hard-earned XP. Leveling up is bought with 20xp. The interesting thing is you can *still* progress in skills individually, including Primary/Secondary skills in your Archetype bundle. Another departure from 1e/2e is HP progression. Now you get +2HP/lvl.

Magic in 3e is very different (but mechanically compatible with previous editions). Now they blow out all the different schools of magic. There are quite a few. Each school is given a list of spells they can cast and the level-based effects they can pull off. These lists make each school **very** distinct in flavor mechanically which was largely implied by 1e/2e. In 3e you really feel different. Magic like in previous editions can be learned as a skill - where individual schools and spells are treated as skills (you will *never* compete with dedicated spellcaster archetypes with Primary spellcasting skills - but you can certainly create very interesting characters).

Overall - the system and setting is fully realized. Compiling much of the material from the 2e books into the core book and expanding both mechanically and setting flavor. A lot of 2e players feel the extra mechanical rigor is "too much" - but I'd contend, the differences are mechanically cosmetic (the main difference being the leveling and Magic) - but even then, 1e/2e mechanical constraints are *still* in play as Tertiary skills, so the differences are really minimal. The core task resolutions are largely the same. They added a LOT more combat options, re-codified magical skills and talents.

4e Big Blue - Everyone's favorite. Take all the setting and mechanical functions of 3e, toss out the Leveling mechanics, and go back to skill-based progression. The big change here is the Magic system... oo boy, this is where Talislanta starts getting into some really interesting territory. Magic in 4e takes the schools of magic from 3e, and their respective spell-lists and breaks them into Orders (Schools) and (Modes) which effectively makes it an Effects Based Magic system. Each Order of Magic has bonuses to each Mode of casting - and each Mode has rules to which they're engaged. It really is an interesting system, but makes it much much more mechanically rigorous. The setting is largely fully realized and while the magical system is different, the core rules are completely compatible. Another thing they did in this edition was removed random damage. Now everything has a Damage Rating.

5e-ish - 5e Tried to improve on 4e, by adding some really innovative new Character Gen - Life paths! And you can see some genius in them, but the editing in the book really takes its toll. There are times where entire rules references are missing, or they were from a previous iteration of the work that got dropped, clarifications that contradict some other elements etc. It's *not* unplayable... but at best it serves as an "Unearthed Arcana" for 4e in my opinion.

Talislanta: The Savage Lands - This edition is a stripped down prequel. Gets back to 2e influenced mechanics. Everything is skill based. Magic is very limited (on purpose) and skill-based. The setting is the real star - it's set in the post-apocalyptic past of the previous editions. The world is *fuuuuuucked* up and you and your tribe are the potential seeds of the kingdoms and empires that will rise from the ashes of this edition's setting. Mass combat rules, Tribe building rules. Trimmed down focus on races and different archetypes. Skills are more tuned to the primitive setting. But it was designed to literally pull anything you want from previous editions (the future!) into the game and work, likewise nothing prevents you from using the chaos-magic storms in the setting to shoot your characters to the future too. The setting is self-contained and we had plans for a lot more, but it didn't work out for legitimate reasons.

If you have any other specific questions - I'll be happy to grind down on them.

Quote from: tenbones on March 11, 2022, 11:54:09 AM
So the editions are unified around a singular task resolution system that doesn't change at all between editions

Stats + Skill vs. Difficulty = Action Table Results.



Stats - All stats are whole numbers. Not derived. 0 = Average and range from -5 to +5.
Skills - Have no effective limit.
Difficulty - Modifiers assigned by the GM based on environment, circumstances, gear, or whatever else the GM and Players can come up with.

That's it. Everything else from special attacks (like Multiple actions, charging attacks, ritual magic, whatever) come from this basic system.

Okay - the quick rundown...

1e - Archetypes + skill-based progression. Magic is a skill based system and there are a variety of Magical Skills from Alchemy to overt spellcasting to operating magical devices. Spells in 1e are generalized "powers" that have sub-categories in them that effectively add modifiers to your roll to produce discrete effects.

2e - Archetypes + skill-based progression. Skills are much more refined (granular) but the system is still very lightweight. The differences between 1e and 2e are merely ones of granular detail. 99% of 1e is covered and extrapolated on in 2e, which is why many people love 2e. It added more detail and a tad of mechanical heft that 1e didn't have. Magic is still skill based but has some other options. This editions gets into the nitty-gritty on building up the world and sandbox campaigning in it.

3e The WotC Edition - Archetypes + Level-based progression. This edition is a departure from the previous two in two major ways. The Archetypes bundle established skill packages (which remain largely unchanged) and create a unified "leveling" system where skills within the total archetype progress as you Level Up. This creates a bifurcation in skills that *aren't* part of your package (which denotes qualities of Primary skills which go up +1 per level, Secondary skills which go up +1 every other level) - and anything you learn on your own (Tertiary skills) which never go up unless you pay for the skill with your hard-earned XP. Leveling up is bought with 20xp. The interesting thing is you can *still* progress in skills individually, including Primary/Secondary skills in your Archetype bundle. Another departure from 1e/2e is HP progression. Now you get +2HP/lvl.

Magic in 3e is very different (but mechanically compatible with previous editions). Now they blow out all the different schools of magic. There are quite a few. Each school is given a list of spells they can cast and the level-based effects they can pull off. These lists make each school **very** distinct in flavor mechanically which was largely implied by 1e/2e. In 3e you really feel different. Magic like in previous editions can be learned as a skill - where individual schools and spells are treated as skills (you will *never* compete with dedicated spellcaster archetypes with Primary spellcasting skills - but you can certainly create very interesting characters).

Overall - the system and setting is fully realized. Compiling much of the material from the 2e books into the core book and expanding both mechanically and setting flavor. A lot of 2e players feel the extra mechanical rigor is "too much" - but I'd contend, the differences are mechanically cosmetic (the main difference being the leveling and Magic) - but even then, 1e/2e mechanical constraints are *still* in play as Tertiary skills, so the differences are really minimal. The core task resolutions are largely the same. They added a LOT more combat options, re-codified magical skills and talents.

4e Big Blue - Everyone's favorite. Take all the setting and mechanical functions of 3e, toss out the Leveling mechanics, and go back to skill-based progression. The big change here is the Magic system... oo boy, this is where Talislanta starts getting into some really interesting territory. Magic in 4e takes the schools of magic from 3e, and their respective spell-lists and breaks them into Orders (Schools) and (Modes) which effectively makes it an Effects Based Magic system. Each Order of Magic has bonuses to each Mode of casting - and each Mode has rules to which they're engaged. It really is an interesting system, but makes it much much more mechanically rigorous. The setting is largely fully realized and while the magical system is different, the core rules are completely compatible. Another thing they did in this edition was removed random damage. Now everything has a Damage Rating.

5e-ish - 5e Tried to improve on 4e, by adding some really innovative new Character Gen - Life paths! And you can see some genius in them, but the editing in the book really takes its toll. There are times where entire rules references are missing, or they were from a previous iteration of the work that got dropped, clarifications that contradict some other elements etc. It's *not* unplayable... but at best it serves as an "Unearthed Arcana" for 4e in my opinion.

Talislanta: The Savage Lands - This edition is a stripped down prequel. Gets back to 2e influenced mechanics. Everything is skill based. Magic is very limited (on purpose) and skill-based. The setting is the real star - it's set in the post-apocalyptic past of the previous editions. The world is *fuuuuuucked* up and you and your tribe are the potential seeds of the kingdoms and empires that will rise from the ashes of this edition's setting. Mass combat rules, Tribe building rules. Trimmed down focus on races and different archetypes. Skills are more tuned to the primitive setting. But it was designed to literally pull anything you want from previous editions (the future!) into the game and work, likewise nothing prevents you from using the chaos-magic storms in the setting to shoot your characters to the future too. The setting is self-contained and we had plans for a lot more, but it didn't work out for legitimate reasons.

If you have any other specific questions - I'll be happy to grind down on them.

Thanks tenbones for your insight into the different editions. I think i settle with 2e.
For the People interrested, you can legally download the pdf´s from 1e-5e http://talislanta.com/