Golden Heroes (and successor to a lesser extent Squadron UK) was the best low (and by low I mean street and even sewer level supers. Guns are dangerous to some supers!) powered game I ever ran online thanks to its combat system of rounds/frames which really made battles zip along. Character generation is a mini game in itself as you roll a bunch of random powers and try to rationalise why they fit together, dropping those that don't. Very much old school, it's knocking on for 30 years old and it struggles with anything much above Spiderman type level, and certainly breaks at Cosmic level because I had to rewrite the game for our purposes. Still, at low levels for a 'Heroes' type campaign I thought it fit the bill very well.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;942492What kind of jet plane?  Fighter?  747?  That's an incredibly wide range.  That's what I meant by vague.  It's not bad, but it's a bit too broad.

Well, I hate to send you buying additional rules, but Supers! has benchmarks rendered in lbs and tons. I'd say the revised edition is rules medium, but the game runs extremely light. This is our go-to system when we run supers adventures. I can't vouch for how it holds up in long term campaigns, as we've only managed running about 5 sessions before wrapping up or dropping our adventures to return to the fantasy standard.

Quote from: APN;942506Golden Heroes (and successor to a lesser extent Squadron UK) was the best low (and by low I mean street and even sewer level supers. Guns are dangerous to some supers!) powered game I ever ran online thanks to its combat system of rounds/frames which really made battles zip along. Character generation is a mini game in itself as you roll a bunch of random powers and try to rationalise why they fit together, dropping those that don't. Very much old school, it's knocking on for 30 years old and it struggles with anything much above Spiderman type level, and certainly breaks at Cosmic level because I had to rewrite the game for our purposes. Still, at low levels for a 'Heroes' type campaign I thought it fit the bill very well.

I had that game for a spell, but never played it unfortunately.  Loved Alan Davis' art.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;942492What kind of jet plane?  Fighter?  747?  That's an incredibly wide range.  That's what I meant by vague.  It's not bad, but it's a bit too broad.

In FASERIP Amazing(50) strength could lift upwards of 50-tons. That said... there is a very little referenced rule in the Judges book that allows a character to make a Red-Psyche feat check, and push their strength up one-rank for that round. So in this case - Monstrous(75) which would increase it to 75-tons.

So as for what kinda jet - fighter? Sure. 747? Probably not. Tow it, maybe flip it. but lift one up by its fuselage? I think it would snap in half. 747's are 285-tons with an empty tank.

Quote from: tenbones;942528In FASERIP Amazing(50) strength could lift upwards of 50-tons. That said... there is a very little referenced rule in the Judges book that allows a character to make a Red-Psyche feat check, and push their strength up one-rank for that round. So in this case - Monstrous(75) which would increase it to 75-tons.

So as for what kinda jet - fighter? Sure. 747? Probably not. Tow it, maybe flip it. but lift one up by its fuselage? I think it would snap in half. 747's are 285-tons with an empty tank.

And a F-15 Strike Eagle, full take off weight is almost 31 metric tonnes. That's almost a 254t difference.  And a train locomotive is between a little less than 100t to a little over 200t.  All I need is an upper limit, and I'll work with it, but ICONS doesn't actually do that.

Don't get me wrong, I like it, and it looks it can handle it's own in the field, but it's little niggling things like those that bother me.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;942558And a F-15 Strike Eagle, full take off weight is almost 31 metric tonnes. That's almost a 254t difference.  And a train locomotive is between a little less than 100t to a little over 200t.  All I need is an upper limit, and I'll work with it, but ICONS doesn't actually do that.

Don't get me wrong, I like it, and it looks it can handle it's own in the field, but it's little niggling things like those that bother me.

Yet complete lack of fuel and ammo information, not even an "upper limit" doesn't bother you at all.  Interesting.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;942558And a F-15 Strike Eagle, full take off weight is almost 31 metric tonnes. That's almost a 254t difference.  And a train locomotive is between a little less than 100t to a little over 200t.  All I need is an upper limit, and I'll work with it, but ICONS doesn't actually do that.

Don't get me wrong, I like it, and it looks it can handle it's own in the field, but it's little niggling things like those that bother me.

Well I confess, I've dabbled with ICONs because it's largely compatible with FASERIP. But I'm a FASERIP guy. so yeah...

Can I easily make the X-men and run an X-men movie level game with ICONs?

How much tapping of aspects goes on in gameplay?

AKA, how much does it play like FATE?

Quote from: tenbones;942586Well I confess, I've dabbled with ICONs because it's largely compatible with FASERIP. But I'm a FASERIP guy. so yeah...

FASERIP, even with it's own little niggles is much more clear than ICONS at this point, but again, I LIKE ICONS and I'm going to try it out.

Quote from: Spinachcat;942596Can I easily make the X-men and run an X-men movie level game with ICONs?

How much tapping of aspects goes on in gameplay?

AKA, how much does it play like FATE?

It doesn't feel very much like FATE to me.  But I haven't played it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;942596Can I easily make the X-men and run an X-men movie level game with ICONs?

How much tapping of aspects goes on in gameplay?

AKA, how much does it play like FATE?

Yeah, ICONS could handle the X-Men pretty easily.

Aspects (or Qualities as they're called in ICONS) differ a little bit depending on whether you have the original version of the game or the Assembled Edition. The AE treats Qualities much more like full-blown Aspects, but their use was downplayed a bit originally. That said, it's not hard to limit them so the game is less FATE-like. Characters only have three and I only allowed them to be used for a +2 bonus on pertinent rolls, which is just one of their possible uses in the new edition. They really weren't a constant presence during the game. They came up periodically but not nearly as often as aspects in a FATE game.

Ok, so first: Champion's infamous 'Math' isn't nearly as scary as people make it out to be.  Did you graduate elementary school? Then you should be fine. There's even lookup tables to speed everything. Also, and I've seen a bazillion Super games so I speak with some authority, it provides an unparalleled ability to define your actual super powers. Most of the games people point to with similar levels of flexibility are really just lazy copies of Champion's with 'less math'.   And, on Champions: Mocking the setting of champions is a bit like blaming Scary Movie for Scream not being all that scary...  Seriously, dude.  Its clearly a cheap pastiche of existing comic book themes and characters to get you jumpstarted.


So, second: Aberrant.

The rules are ball cancer. No, they are ball cancer on a sewer rat with AIDS and Smallpox.  No question there.  There are some inspirational super character ideas in there, but in a system so poorly concieved that it thinks the Alien Baby in Aliens Ressurection is, like, Mozart or something.

That said the setting is not that bad.

Badly written and presented? Absolutely. But you're talking about making a super game grounded in the 'real world', where Supers are sort of new and not govered by four color tropes?  Take a second, deeper look at Aberrant.  The problem isn't the ideas behind the setting, its the people behind those ideas and their absolutely retarded take on teh world.

Seriously: Supers used as mercenary proxy-armies for real world conflicts?  Bad ass concept.
              Supers as WWE replacements on a bigger scale?  Bad ass concept.
              Conflicts between Superhuman Supremecists and Mundane Supremecists with actual murders and terrorism from both sides? Bad ass concept, ruined by being written by actual morons with all the moral grounding of our previously mentioned sewer rat.  Seriously. The Count character... is Richard Spencer, the sorta-nazi that everyone has been cheering over getting punched in teh face, only in Aberrant he's some sort of super sexy ultra suave cool guy who gets invited to all the best parties, despite the fact that he's the publicly accepted face of mass murdering genocidal monsters who don't believe in any checks (not even other supers) on their actions. Utter, solipsistic amoral fuckwits. But the Count? He's groovy. Hell, they are all cool cats, and their genocidal solipsistic amoral philosophy is totally cool and valid, because (and I'm not even kidding!) they are like down with the ghey, man!   Of course, the ONLY people who might dare question their attitude are religious nutjobs, and caricatures, at that.

Moral relativism at its very worst, coupled with painfully in your face virtue signalling and special snowflakisms.  

That's bad, sure enough. But take another look at the ideas in teh setting and tell me they don't match up with a world suddenly 'gifted' with people with almost four color style powers in an otherwise 'real' setting.  Maybe its too powerful for ya, sure.  

Then again: Brave New World (which someone else suggested earlier) is, or should be, too LOW powered for anyone to seriously consider.   Its the Watchmen setting with the serial numbers filed of, where the Night Owl and Silk Spectre get into a fight with a random street gang and you find their mutilated bodies in the dumpster in the morning.  Seriously, you usually get two powers per super-package, neither one of which is the equal to real stuff except the ability to fly slightly faster than people run.  Blasters? Carry a fucking nine mil pistol, and you'll be as dangerous...no, more dangerous, since the gun can be fired multiple times a turn, and wear a bulletproof vest so you'll have twice the armor! Couple that with the Gadgeteers and Barginers literally being more powerful than every other class (because they can literally be EVERY OTHER CLASS!!!... no, seriously: Every NPC gadgeteer literally has a flying armored suit that gives him the blaster powers, the flying powers and more armor than blasters and flyers get, essentially being twice the character in one class!), and Brave New World is a big Nope.  Never mind that the writing for the setting seems to have the same basic problem as Aberrant: Plenty of cool ideas ruined by shitty and self involved writing. Also: Metaplot.

Quote from: Spike;942643Ok, so first: Champion's infamous 'Math' isn't nearly as scary as people make it out to be.  Did you graduate elementary school? Then you should be fine. There's even lookup tables to speed everything. Also, and I've seen a bazillion Super games so I speak with some authority, it provides an unparalleled ability to define your actual super powers. Most of the games people point to with similar levels of flexibility are really just lazy copies of Champion's with 'less math'.  

I've all but abandoned my search for a superhero RPG, and would default to Savage Worlds with the Super Powers Companion (partly out of laziness, partly out of sincere belief that SW can handle trad comic book action) make me want to look into the Hero System again.

Quote from: Spike;942643And, on Champions: Mocking the setting of champions is a bit like blaming Scary Movie for Scream not being all that scary...  Seriously, dude.  Its clearly a cheap pastiche of existing comic book themes and characters to get you jumpstarted.

I am only passingly familiar with it but I like it well enough. Yeah, many characters are thinly-veiled stand-ins.

Quote from: Spike;942643So, second: Aberrant.

The rules are ball cancer. No, they are ball cancer on a sewer rat with AIDS and Smallpox.

Aberrant and Brand New World both strike me as the sort of setting that Wild Talents does well. I'm not sure it can handle classic four-color Silver or Bronze Age antics, but it apparently does a good job with "gritty supers" from The Authority to Zack Snyder's DC Murderverse.

Come on, Spike, tell us how you really feel.

(By the by I agree with everything you said.  The White Wings Exalted quote about how that game was written about heroes by people who hate heroes and have little concept of what epic counts for Aberrant, by changing hero to superhero, in my opinion.)

Quote from: Spike;942643Ok, so first: Champion's infamous 'Math' isn't nearly as scary as people make it out to be.  Did you graduate elementary school?

I concur the math is just a bunch of multiplication done in the right order. However you are missing the fact that the Hero System has a huge shopping list of powers, enhancements and limitations.  That is a genuinely intimidating to people. Personally I recommend the Until Superpowers Database I and II they provide dozens of worked out example of super powers along with the exact breakdown of how they are built.

Once you mastered the system it is thing of wonder to use. The only problem I have is managing expectations. People come in wanting to be Superman of the 70s but wind up starting out like Superman of Action Comic #1 due to the fact they have only so many points to spend at first.

One players was a right royal pain in the ass about this. To the point where his best friend turn to him and says. "Look you are trying to play Batman as he is in the JLA, but really your character right now is Batman when he was in Year One. Just cut it out and focus on what you can do."

Quote from: Spike;942643I've seen a bazillion Super games so I speak with some authority, it provides an unparalleled ability to define your actual super powers. Most of the games people point to with similar levels of flexibility are really just lazy copies of Champion's with 'less math'.

My technique is to sit down with the player and ask him to describe what his superhero is like. I stress that this is going to be a Year One version to manage expectations. Then I make up the character after working through the options with the player. It only a takes a few sessions before they get a hang of manipulating the powers mechanics and most start digging into the books to plan out how their character will grow. The combat system is elegantly designed so it easy to see how everything works in a fight.

By far my favorite superhero game.

I'd say that this is an issue with any superhero game. Until the players have sat through a few sessions, built a few characters in any given system, managing their expectations of power vs rules is going to be an issue.

More than an issue than other genres? I mean: if you had a new player who read a bunch of conan comicbooks and was playing in his first ever D&D game, doncha think it'd take him a little bit to manage his expectations?   I think its more Obvious, and that it will effect even experienced gamers. He'll I practically broke a GM at a con my first ever Champions game (way back in... 1989 or so? 1990?... before 1992, I'm sure), when he had pre-built street level characters for us all, low levels of power... and I decided dropping of a skyscraper was a better way 'down' then the alternatives. I've never seen a GM reroll damage dice so many times trying to kill me before, and failing.  My street level character may not have been 'powerful', but he could definitely take a fall. 2 body damage when it was all said and done, nobody bothered to count up the stun damage.  30 dice.

That power's database sounds like a good resource, but those are the sorts of supplements that make me feel like I wasted my money. I ENJOY building my own characters, playing with systems to see what I can do. NPCs? Sure, give me a book of prebuilts, but powers and stuff?  Only if there are actual NEW THINGS in it.