TheRPGSite

A group of players and I started running D&D 5e... and honestly, no one is feeling it.  I pitched the idea for a superhero RPG, and everyone seems to be down for that.  With this comes a couple of concerns.

I'll be using my own 'setting'- which is hardly a 'setting', but more or less the real world with a few twists here and there- 'Enhanced Persons' are a relatively new development that became public knowledge in 1999.  'Physics' is still a thing in this setting, so nothing too absurd.  It's a few bits gritty, a few bits deconstructive, but I'm not going to have people Roleplaying a Frank Miller setting with everyone in plain clothes.  There are heroes, there are villains- however, some Enhanced Persons are 'heroes' because it simply gives them what they want, not really because they are genuinely good people.  Villains are generally empowered people who feel like they might be actually doing the right thing (and some may be convincing the public of this as well).  

And yes, I will be doing that cheesy thing where I have a 'GM player character' (although, he takes mostly a backseat and acts as a plot device off-screen, as his motives are not completely clear at this time).  Of course, we will be rotating GM's- this is to sort of simulate different writers' story arcs, as seen in comics.

I'll share some of my ideas here, and I'd like for you guys to offer critique and guidance.  Mostly, what I'll be doing is sharing some of the characters I've made- NPC's of various sorts.

However, right now what I'm looking for is the best system to use.  I hear 'Champions' is a bit heavy on the math- but I don't remember playing Dark Champions and having that much difficulty.  I still actually own Aberrant, even though I see its setting as seriously as I would a clown cock-slapping a tambourine (although, I distinctly will say that 'Champions' is just the same, except there's another clown farting on a bass drum).  I have used the D20 system as well, and it's okay.

So, here are the caveats to the campaign(s):

-Heroes are not 'epic' in power level.  Mostly, they should be 'enhanced'- but should not have extreme superhuman abilities or assets (think "X-Men" or "WildCATS").  
-'Supernatural' abilities are not public knowledge, and anything of the sort should be easily dismissed as a form of 'Enhanced Ability'.
-Much of the initial campaign will be 'street level' and is lacking things like alien invasions, cosmic god-like threats, and things of this nature.

Any guidance you guys have would be great.

If you must have a supers game, the two supers games I like the most are BASH! and Mutants and Masterminds. Just pick the supplements and the one with the mechanics you want. Pretty much most/all supers games have some sort of rules for "street" level powers.

My preference and the way I would do it would be to run my favorite RPG that lets anyone have magic and use magic as super powers. This is pretty much how I created my homegrown RPG.

TSR's Marvel Superheroes or Aberrant. MSH has the most options to do practically anything.. While Aberrant has a more focused scope and possibly more balance.

In order -

FASERIP - tons of support. *Insanely* easy to use. And it's all free. Scalability from street-level to cosmic.
ICONS - It's like FASERIP with the numbers scratched off. they're 99% compatable - but you'll have to crib some stuff.
Savage Worlds Supers - EASY (it's Savage Worlds) works wonderful for street-level, to Spiderman/Avengers-level. After that? Debatable. Good system nevertheless.

I recommend all of these because essentially they're toolkits by design which are perfect for your homebrewed game.

Mutant and Masterminds has been standard flagship for superhero games decade of more. It's took crunchy for me but I guess it is a logical starting point especially if you are coming from D&D.

Personally I've had a lot of success with ICONS. It's got a interesting mix new and old game design drawing equally from the old TSR Marvel Superhero ("Faserip") and Fate. It is on the rules light side but that suits me. ICONS is probably one of my favourite systems from any genre.

And speaking of TSR Marvel Superhero, it doesn't look like much but it works really well.

Quote from: Crüesader;939948A group of players and I started running D&D 5e... and honestly, no one is feeling it.  I pitched the idea for a superhero RPG, and everyone seems to be down for that.  With this comes a couple of concerns.

I'll be using my own 'setting'- which is hardly a 'setting', but more or less the real world with a few twists here and there- 'Enhanced Persons' are a relatively new development that became public knowledge in 1999.  'Physics' is still a thing in this setting, so nothing too absurd.  It's a few bits gritty, a few bits deconstructive, but I'm not going to have people Roleplaying a Frank Miller setting with everyone in plain clothes.  There are heroes, there are villains- however, some Enhanced Persons are 'heroes' because it simply gives them what they want, not really because they are genuinely good people.  Villains are generally empowered people who feel like they might be actually doing the right thing (and some may be convincing the public of this as well).  

And yes, I will be doing that cheesy thing where I have a 'GM player character' (although, he takes mostly a backseat and acts as a plot device off-screen, as his motives are not completely clear at this time).  Of course, we will be rotating GM's- this is to sort of simulate different writers' story arcs, as seen in comics.

I'll share some of my ideas here, and I'd like for you guys to offer critique and guidance.  Mostly, what I'll be doing is sharing some of the characters I've made- NPC's of various sorts.

However, right now what I'm looking for is the best system to use.  I hear 'Champions' is a bit heavy on the math- but I don't remember playing Dark Champions and having that much difficulty.  I still actually own Aberrant, even though I see its setting as seriously as I would a clown cock-slapping a tambourine (although, I distinctly will say that 'Champions' is just the same, except there's another clown farting on a bass drum).  I have used the D20 system as well, and it's okay.

So, here are the caveats to the campaign(s):

-Heroes are not 'epic' in power level.  Mostly, they should be 'enhanced'- but should not have extreme superhuman abilities or assets (think "X-Men" or "WildCATS").  
-'Supernatural' abilities are not public knowledge, and anything of the sort should be easily dismissed as a form of 'Enhanced Ability'.
-Much of the initial campaign will be 'street level' and is lacking things like alien invasions, cosmic god-like threats, and things of this nature.

Any guidance you guys have would be great.

Going by the power level you're aiming for, I suggest checking out AMP: Year One and it's supplements, Year Two & Three. Power level is on par with early X-Men (before Wolverine, etc joined). I had the chance to play this at GenCon last year, and I enjoyed it.

Cold Steel Wardens is another rpg I played at GenCon. It's designed to emulate the Iron Age era of comics. Powers are in the range you're looking for (and WildCATS started out in the Iron Age), but it doesn't have a comprehensive amount of powers.

While many loathe it, I liked Brave New World. Ditch the metaplot and it's got a decent low powered supers engine inside (though they spread the packages across a bunch of books, which did kind of suck). It played fairly street level in the demo I played before the game was released.

If you choose one of the more popular games (ICONS, M&M, Supers!, Champions), there is a setting for all those games called Extreme Earth. The setting doesn't gel with what you want to run, but might provide inspiration with the character concepts. Each game has it's own version, so you can get it for whichever one you might decide on.

On the background/setting level, it sounds like you're going for some realism - but you also want costumes and crime-fighting. To resolve assumptions on this, you should both have some defined source material that sets the tone - like the X-Men movies, say, and plan out how and why the heroes are teamed up to fight crime. Key things to explain include:

1) How the PCs find violent crime to fight. In a street-level game, it can quickly get silly if the PCs have to walk the streets looking for muggings, or alternately if credibility is strained such that bank robberies happen right beside them.
2) Why they do so as costumed vigilantes rather than by other means.

For the group - a combined origin is one option (i.e. Fantastic Four). Another option is a core hero who organized the team (Professor X, say) - I would suggest a PC but *not* your GM PC.


For system, lots of people have suggestions. If you're looking for something more rules-light, I've enjoyed the Truth & Justice system - which is on the minimalist side, but still has concrete rules for powers and such. Rules-heavy vs. rules-light is a matter of taste.

Maybe a good question is "What type of 'feel' are we looking for?"  You're clearly not looking for Avengers level.  How about Daredevil, Spiderman, that more your take?

Cuz some systems are better at it than others.  I wouldn't recommend FASERIP or M&M for low level supers.  FASERIP has a problem with granularity and M&M gets wonky under or over certain power levels.

"Supers" is a straight d6-pool game that works best for Street Level. Very flexible, but relies a lot on GM interp. Downside: big dice pools win out over small ones, which can lead to some one-trick ponyism, but, as you use a power for one thing a round (i.e., if I attack with Super Strength, I cannot defend with it, and vice-versa), there are some built in limits. The revised edition cleaned up a lot of the issues with the previous, and added some granularity. Flexible options!

Triumphant is basically the same game, but uses step dice, and is much swingier. It does allow some dice stacking, take the highest, where logical (i.e., Accuracyd6 (a power)+ Ranged (bows) d8 [a skill/spec], roll both, take highest. There are two task resolution charts, with the one used for powers having lower DC's (so Super Acrobatics d4 might need only a 1, whereas skilled/trained non-super Athletics d8 would need a 4). Combat can be dicey, even if you're slinging around a d10 power (which is hard for street level to have). Very easy to roll 1's, and have a slovenly Mook rolling a d4 give you a face full of bullets.

Both are pretty rules light, and I can't really say they're excellent for long term play, but Triumphant has some excellent training options between missions that can grant some specific boons (i.e., training with the team allows some bonuses the next issue; patrolling between issues gives you a free skill the next mission, and so on).

BESM is a good system overall, even if it is anime-focused (I always liked anime over Marvel and DC capeshit), and can be used for non-anime games as well. They even have a superhero/capeshit variant of BESM called Silver Age Sentinels. Check it out, it might be a good system for what you are looking for.

You could also check out Champions or Dark Champions if you want something a little heavier.

Quote from: jhkim;9400031) How the PCs find violent crime to fight. In a street-level game, it can quickly get silly if the PCs have to walk the streets looking for muggings, or alternately if credibility is strained such that bank robberies happen right beside them.

Someone is tipping them off.  Remember when the Punisher's 'secret informant' years ago (that for some reason, everyone swore was 'Captain America')?  Essentially, a shadowy NPC begins tipping them off through social media to a series of things happening, forcing them to cross paths.  Without rambling on and on- there's a bit of corruption, in places it isn't expected.  The character feeding them info, 'Exitus', seems to know a LOT about what's going on- and the only thing they know about Exitus is based off unreliable witness statements and a really bad video that barely shows his silhouette (spoiler- he's wired into the CCTV around the city and uses voice recognition to spy on people).  

Quote from: jhkim;9400032) Why they do so as costumed vigilantes rather than by other means.

All the characters are rookies.  Most of them have dealt with some street-level shit before, but they get the 'who?' treatment from John Q. Public if someone mentions their name.  They aren't all cut from the same cloth- my only requests were "Don't make a sociopath, don't make a villain, you're basically a newbie to the whole 'heroics' thing".  Overall, most of the 'hero teams' are dealing with issues globally, or more overt in nature.  Exitus is getting them involved in something he's found (and depending on how they do things will determine whether or not his motivation is selfish or noble).

If you like d20 based systems and you want to have a similar feel and you want to keep control of their power level, you can probably accomplish this in Mutants and Masterminds, 3e being very well done and it has an SRD making the most important rules accessible. Characters are based on Power Level which is kind of different from Character Level. They can get more powerful but don't expect them to go too high at least until you get closer to whatever your end game may be. PL 10 is your typical Spider-Man/Daredevil stuff. X-men are around the same range, with a high end of PL 12 excluding heavy hitters. Your typical pulp hero would be around PL 8, a two fisted hero would be around PL 6. A  soldier PL 5, a cop PL 4, Various civilians and thugs and mooks PL 1-3. That would be around your scale range. The nice thing is you can build characters up without increasing their PL. They may not get more powerful, but they can become more versatile.

Powers are effect based, meaning you can have a power called blast and assign what damage type you want it to have. So the power descriptions are focused on mechanics and allows you to add fluff which is nice when you are customizing for your own setting. If you use this system there are some things to be aware of. M+M is not D&D. Okay, you can totally make a beautiful mashup of M+M 2nd Edition and True20, but I would not suggest that route unless you like to make work for yourself. M+M 3e is not very forgiving when you get a Power Level difference of more than 2. So if you pit four PL 8 heroes against a PL 12 villain, the villain has a really good chance of wiping the floor with them. It's not impossible, I've done it, but the odds are not in your favor. So this has it's up and down sides. The upside being that you don't have to constantly put heroes up against tougher and tougher foes. A character starting at PL 10 may never get higher than PL 12 or maybe 13 if they're like Batman or something. But that would be a veteran Batman. You'd probably want to have your characters start in the PL 8-10 range, PL 7 or even 6 if you want things to be grittier.

Converting stuff from other d20 sources isn't too bad. M+M is pretty similar in the latest two editions in this respect. As I recall, +2 is something like d8 damage and you can pretty much use that rule to convert stuff from d20 Modern and True20 back and forth. It works mostly the same with M+M. Also, everything scales. You can cap stuff where you want to cap it. There's a universal table for things like speed, distance, mass, time which makes importing stuff from other systems pretty easy. Though if you want the quickest and most efficient way possible to run this system, then I recommend Hero Lab. Heck, if you don't want to pay for it get the demo and build your NPCs and other stuff and just write it down.

Quote from: tenbones;939971Savage Worlds Supers - EASY (it's Savage Worlds) works wonderful for street-level, to Spiderman/Avengers-level. After that? Debatable. Good system nevertheless.

This is also a good option, particularly if you are playing with a live group because it uses cards for initiative. Combat can be quick and deadly. In addition to the most recent Super Powers Companion I'd recommend the Science Fiction Companion as well, so if you want killer robots or cybernetically enhanced Soldiers with CRISPR edited genes you can do that.

Quote from: Krimson;940097If you like d20 based systems and you want to have a similar feel and you want to keep control of their power level, you can probably accomplish this in Mutants and Masterminds, 3e being very well done and it has an SRD making the most important rules accessible. Characters are based on Power Level which is kind of different from Character Level. They can get more powerful but don't expect them to go too high at least until you get closer to whatever your end game may be. PL 10 is your typical Spider-Man/Daredevil stuff. X-men are around the same range, with a high end of PL 12 excluding heavy hitters. Your typical pulp hero would be around PL 8, a two fisted hero would be around PL 6. A  soldier PL 5, a cop PL 4, Various civilians and thugs and mooks PL 1-3. That would be around your scale range. The nice thing is you can build characters up without increasing their PL. They may not get more powerful, but they can become more versatile.

This is what I'd like to do.  I would rather the team be versatile and capable, rather than just go from shooting lasers from their eyes and blowing wood paneling apart, to shooting lasers from their eyes and destroying Australia (not really a downside to that otherwise).

Can you bump up their power level just a little, though?  I'd like to see their abilities get more potent.  This campaign is going to start at the street level, and develop into more as time goes on.

Quote from: jhkim1) How the PCs find violent crime to fight. In a street-level game, it can quickly get silly if the PCs have to walk the streets looking for muggings, or alternately if credibility is strained such that bank robberies happen right beside them.

Quote from: Crüesader;940077Someone is tipping them off.  Remember when the Punisher's 'secret informant' years ago (that for some reason, everyone swore was 'Captain America')?  Essentially, a shadowy NPC begins tipping them off through social media to a series of things happening, forcing them to cross paths.  Without rambling on and on- there's a bit of corruption, in places it isn't expected.  The character feeding them info, 'Exitus', seems to know a LOT about what's going on- and the only thing they know about Exitus is based off unreliable witness statements and a really bad video that barely shows his silhouette (spoiler- he's wired into the CCTV around the city and uses voice recognition to spy on people).

That's workable, but I'd toss out the idea of the PCs having their own direct sources of information rather than purely relying on an NPC. Exitus can and should remain mysterious, but the PCs should be able to still be effective even if he disappears.

Quote from: jhkim2) Why they do so as costumed vigilantes rather than by other means.

Quote from: Crüesader;940077All the characters are rookies.  Most of them have dealt with some street-level shit before, but they get the 'who?' treatment from John Q. Public if someone mentions their name.  They aren't all cut from the same cloth- my only requests were "Don't make a sociopath, don't make a villain, you're basically a newbie to the whole 'heroics' thing".  Overall, most of the 'hero teams' are dealing with issues globally, or more overt in nature.  Exitus is getting them involved in something he's found (and depending on how they do things will determine whether or not his motivation is selfish or noble).

With the last, does that mean that you'll be adjusting the background to fit with how they approach Exitus's thing? It sounds good to take into account who they are, rather than having an assumed mission for them, but it's hard to tell from the information here.

Quote from: jhkim;940272That's workable, but I'd toss out the idea of the PCs having their own direct sources of information rather than purely relying on an NPC. Exitus can and should remain mysterious, but the PCs should be able to still be effective even if he disappears.

Well, odds are- everyone's going to make wildly different characters.  If everyone up and said "Dude, we should be vigilantes", I could easily work with that.  But already we're looking at one reformed criminal, one lab experiment that's escaped, and other randomness.  The key is I want them to be brought down to the 'street level', and as things progress it will escalate.  Their own source of information could be plausible, but that all depends on what they can come up with.  

Quote from: jhkim;940272With the last, does that mean that you'll be adjusting the background to fit with how they approach Exitus's thing? It sounds good to take into account who they are, rather than having an assumed mission for them, but it's hard to tell from the information here.

Honestly?  I'm being flexible.  Investigation roleplaying (which will happen) can make or break a campaign- they can 'get it wrong' and everything goes south.  I don't want them railroaded- their investigations will yield a result- one of several.  Depending on the way they play, their suspicions, and what seems the most fun at the time- they could find out that there's a sinister agenda behind Exitus' plot.  They could find out that he's actually one of the good guys.  It all depends on what seems like it will be more interesting.  Just in case, I've made an additional character for me to play afterward in case he ends up thrown out a window or sliced in half.

Quote from: Crüesader;940237This is what I'd like to do.  I would rather the team be versatile and capable, rather than just go from shooting lasers from their eyes and blowing wood paneling apart, to shooting lasers from their eyes and destroying Australia (not really a downside to that otherwise).

Can you bump up their power level just a little, though?  I'd like to see their abilities get more potent.  This campaign is going to start at the street level, and develop into more as time goes on.

You can totally do that when merited. The thing is that advancement is not dependent on it. If you award Power Points it doesn't mean an increase in power level. The Power Level increase could be treated like some sort of milestone. You decide that after a major plot is resolved that the characters are indeed getting better at what they do. Just remember that advancement doesn't parallel level based d20. Your PL 13 character is going to be powerful. Like take out groups of normals and lesser supers powerful. Start out lower than you want by a PL or two, and then it's easier to fix if you find yourself underpowered than trying to fix an overpowered game.

Your desired style & power-level sounds like a good match for GURPS, to me, though I'm a GURPS-o-phile and probably wouldn't actually recommend starting GM'ing GURPS with a supers game. Also GURPS has the "oh looks like one of those bullets from a random thug actually hit you in the throat..." factor or just the "um that teenager raked a knife through your unarmored arm, and you have no superpowers that keep that from crippling it.." factor.

Quote from: Skarg;940428Your desired style & power-level sounds like a good match for GURPS, to me, though I'm a GURPS-o-phile and probably wouldn't actually recommend starting GM'ing GURPS with a supers game. Also GURPS has the "oh looks like one of those bullets from a random thug actually hit you in the throat..." factor or just the "um that teenager raked a knife through your unarmored arm, and you have no superpowers that keep that from crippling it.." factor.

That's why it worked for Wild Cards.

jg

Quote from: Crüesader;939948A group of players and I started running D&D 5e... and honestly, no one is feeling it.  I pitched the idea for a superhero RPG, and everyone seems to be down for that.  With this comes a couple of concerns.

I'll be using my own 'setting'- which is hardly a 'setting', but more or less the real world with a few twists here and there- 'Enhanced Persons' are a relatively new development that became public knowledge in 1999.  'Physics' is still a thing in this setting, so nothing too absurd.  It's a few bits gritty, a few bits deconstructive, but I'm not going to have people Roleplaying a Frank Miller setting with everyone in plain clothes.  There are heroes, there are villains- however, some Enhanced Persons are 'heroes' because it simply gives them what they want, not really because they are genuinely good people.  Villains are generally empowered people who feel like they might be actually doing the right thing (and some may be convincing the public of this as well).  

And yes, I will be doing that cheesy thing where I have a 'GM player character' (although, he takes mostly a backseat and acts as a plot device off-screen, as his motives are not completely clear at this time).  Of course, we will be rotating GM's- this is to sort of simulate different writers' story arcs, as seen in comics.

I'll share some of my ideas here, and I'd like for you guys to offer critique and guidance.  Mostly, what I'll be doing is sharing some of the characters I've made- NPC's of various sorts.

However, right now what I'm looking for is the best system to use.  I hear 'Champions' is a bit heavy on the math- but I don't remember playing Dark Champions and having that much difficulty.  I still actually own Aberrant, even though I see its setting as seriously as I would a clown cock-slapping a tambourine (although, I distinctly will say that 'Champions' is just the same, except there's another clown farting on a bass drum).  I have used the D20 system as well, and it's okay.

So, here are the caveats to the campaign(s):

-Heroes are not 'epic' in power level.  Mostly, they should be 'enhanced'- but should not have extreme superhuman abilities or assets (think "X-Men" or "WildCATS").  
-'Supernatural' abilities are not public knowledge, and anything of the sort should be easily dismissed as a form of 'Enhanced Ability'.
-Much of the initial campaign will be 'street level' and is lacking things like alien invasions, cosmic god-like threats, and things of this nature.

Any guidance you guys have would be great.

What you've described is basically a 100% match for Dark Champions (Hero 5e/6e + the 5e Dark Champions sourcebook).

Quote from: The_Shadow;940509What you've described is basically a 100% match for Dark Champions (Hero 5e/6e + the 5e Dark Champions sourcebook).

Dark Champions was a headache, as I recall.  I'd be willing to try it again, but I'd have to re-learn it.  I was hand-held through the last one.  

Also, Champions has a SHITLOAD of books- any recommendations on it?

I recently picked up AMP Year One from Third Eye Games and it seems perfect fit for this. It's about normal people developing super powers. Its street level, but it assumes that there are groups that could be identified as heroes and villains, depending on perspective, much like in X-Men. The game includes a broad range of powers and also includes technology designed to combat super powered individuals.

The system is simple using a single d20, with a mechanics for powers that feels like Aberrant's but fixed. Unlike many Super RPGs that start PCs as powerful and advanxement minimal, it sees them progress in power more rapidly from ordinary people much like other RPGs. The setting sounds like it may also provide you with the ability to pick and choose as you want.

Quote from: Crüesader;940523Dark Champions was a headache, as I recall.  I'd be willing to try it again, but I'd have to re-learn it.  I was hand-held through the last one.  

Also, Champions has a SHITLOAD of books- any recommendations on it?

All you need is Champions Complete (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/107799/Champions-Complete?src=hottest_filtered). Pretty sure it's still readily available in print as well as pdf. Then you can pick up the Dark Champions pdf (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/19520/Dark-Champions--PDF?cPath=337_4091&it=1) as a resource, not really necessary.
Champions Complete is a bit dense, but if you've played Hero before it should be fine. If you or your group are a bit wary about complexity, consider Hero Basic (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/64691/HERO-System-Basic-Rulebook?src=hottest_filtered) as an entry point. It's 95% of Hero 6e in 128 pages, and what's more is  presented and explained better than Champions Complete. There should be no issues with getting a game going just with Basic.

Quote from: The_Shadow;940526All you need is Champions Complete (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/107799/Champions-Complete?src=hottest_filtered). Pretty sure it's still readily available in print as well as pdf. Then you can pick up the Dark Champions pdf (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/19520/Dark-Champions--PDF?cPath=337_4091&it=1) as a resource, not really necessary.
Champions Complete is a bit dense, but if you've played Hero before it should be fine. If you or your group are a bit wary about complexity, consider Hero Basic (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/64691/HERO-System-Basic-Rulebook?src=hottest_filtered) as an entry point. It's 95% of Hero 6e in 128 pages, and what's more is  presented and explained better than Champions Complete. There should be no issues with getting a game going just with Basic.

My advice in regard to Dark Champions is that while the original (pre-5th Edition) version was designed around the sort of low-level supers cruising with human vigilantes thing you see in Marvel Netflix productions, 5th Edition Dark Champions was less superhero and more "action hero."  Mercenaries, cops, espionage, that sort of thing.  In my opinion it should have been called Action Hero, or they should have revived the name of Danger International (which I understand they are going to do in the near future).

JG

I really, really wish I had the time and inclination to get into Hero/Champions or even its close cousin Fuzion.

M&M3 is better than its predecessors but the Feat system is still a mess.

ICONS is nice and simple but perhaps too simple.

Wild Talents is interesting but mostly for street-level games, and has a strong Iron Age bias.

If I ever get around to giving supers another shot, I'll probably go with Savage Worlds with the Super Powers Companion, because I'm a lazy bum. And also because SW does a good job of emulating Golden, Silver and Bronze Age comics (and, I suspect, Iron with minimal adaptation)

Quote from: The Butcher;940641I really, really wish I had the time and inclination to get into Hero/Champions or even its close cousin Fuzion.

M&M3 is better than its predecessors but the Feat system is still a mess.

ICONS is nice and simple but perhaps too simple.

Wild Talents is interesting but mostly for street-level games, and has a strong Iron Age bias.

If I ever get around to giving supers another shot, I'll probably go with Savage Worlds with the Super Powers Companion, because I'm a lazy bum. And also because SW does a good job of emulating Golden, Silver and Bronze Age comics (and, I suspect, Iron with minimal adaptation)

M&M and Icons seem too simple, Savage Worlds seems a bit underpowered, and while I have always preferred Hero I'm starting to agree with those who find it too much work.  I'm trying to create a happy medium.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;940669M&M and Icons seem too simple, Savage Worlds seems a bit underpowered, and while I have always preferred Hero I'm starting to agree with those who find it too much work.  I'm trying to create a happy medium.

M&M3 is "too simple"???

I find the Feat system a GURPS-like drag. But please elaborate; you may end up selling me on it!

Quote from: Skywalker;940525I recently picked up AMP Year One from Third Eye Games and it seems perfect fit for this. It's about normal people developing super powers. Its street level, but it assumes that there are groups that could be identified as heroes and villains, depending on perspective, much like in X-Men. The game includes a broad range of powers and also includes technology designed to combat super powered individuals.

The system is simple using a single d20, with a mechanics for powers that feels like Aberrant's but fixed. Unlike many Super RPGs that start PCs as powerful and advanxement minimal, it sees them progress in power more rapidly from ordinary people much like other RPGs. The setting sounds like it may also provide you with the ability to pick and choose as you want.

Just had a little hunt for this. Looks quite interesting for a one-off campaign.

Quote from: The Butcher;940641I really, really wish I had the time and inclination to get into Hero/Champions

The 4th edition of Champions isn't as bad as 5th and 6th, at least from an eye bleed standpoint.  Makes me think that the earlier editions were probably even easier.

You might find Two-Fisted Tales a viable option. Not a supers game but a pulp one, which can be set to four different power levels (Gritty, Escapist, Fantastic, and Amazing), the highest of which corresponds to proto-supers.

Link: Precis Intermedia :: Two-Fisted Tales (http://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=46)

Quote from: urbwar;939996Going by the power level you're aiming for, I suggest checking out AMP: Year One and it's supplements, Year Two & Three. Power level is on par with early X-Men (before Wolverine, etc joined). I had the chance to play this at GenCon last year, and I enjoyed it.

AMP would be my suggestion as well.

Quote from: Skywalker;940525I recently picked up AMP Year One from Third Eye Games and it seems perfect fit for this. It's about normal people developing super powers. Its street level, but it assumes that there are groups that could be identified as heroes and villains, depending on perspective, much like in X-Men. The game includes a broad range of powers and also includes technology designed to combat super powered individuals.

The system is simple using a single d20, with a mechanics for powers that feels like Aberrant's but fixed. Unlike many Super RPGs that start PCs as powerful and advanxement minimal, it sees them progress in power more rapidly from ordinary people much like other RPGs. The setting sounds like it may also provide you with the ability to pick and choose as you want.

I think one of the best things about AMP is that, except for some corner cases, guns are still king! in the game.

Granted some of the powers feel a bit too "magical" instead of 'genetic' Like the Mirror power set.

Quote from: One Horse Town;940674Just had a little hunt for this. Looks quite interesting for a one-off campaign.

The main game books are pretty good, still some flaws in it, but that's normal if you ask me.  It's the 'guide books' that imo are pretty bad.  I bought 4 of the guide book PDFs and the quality is definitely not there.

Quote from: The Butcher;940673M&M3 is "too simple"???

I find the Feat system a GURPS-like drag. But please elaborate; you may end up selling me on it!

Well, the fact that almost all attack powers are based on Affliction (x result on success, y result on success +5, z and final result on success +10) means that everything comes off a bit generic to me.

JG

ICONS is the only actual superhero game I like. The only one I've ever really liked.

Two-Fisted Tales can be used for awesome pulp adventuring, including very low-range Golden- or early Silver-age type supers play, but you'd probably have to invent some powers and such.  The upcoming new edition might end up having more stuff for that.

I will have to look into ICONS, I keep hearing good things about it.  Onto the Wishlist it goes!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;941652I will have to look into ICONS, I keep hearing good things about it.  Onto the Wishlist it goes!

It's a very well done game, I must admit. I wish I could testify to actual play experience.

So far, we've used Aberrant and it seems to work all right- but then again, all we've got out of the way are mostly-narrative introductory sessions.  Mostly because until next weekend, I won't have all of my players together at the same time.  I got quite a bit of support on this, and I was shocked that two people dropped D&D games for it.  

If ICONS works better, I'll give it a try.  Not to dismiss anyone here, but I'm going to have a look elsewhere on the things mentioned to see what people say.  Not that I find anyone's opinion invalid- just that I want to see people saying the worst and the best things about the games, and they may highlight something that is a pet peeve to me.

After all, this forum is the reason I didn't throw away cash on Malifeaux- despite everyone else everywhere claiming that it was the best miniatures game ever.

Quote from: cranebump;941660It's a very well done game, I must admit. I wish I could testify to actual play experience.

I picked it up cuz it was on sale.  Looks cute.

ICONS is very very very good. It would probably be my favorite supers-game if it weren't for the fact that I'm so deep into FASERIP that I don't really need ICONS to do what I'm already doing in FASERIP. They would play almost identically.

You can't go wrong with ICONS. It's a superb choice - and has some great support:

https://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Characters+Conversions

What you're going to get out of ICON's is scalability and simplicity. Because it's using the FASERIP chassis but slightly scaled down numbers, it actually allows for faster gameplay than FASERIP (which is insanely fast once you understand it).

Quote from: Crüesader;941970So far, we've used Aberrant and it seems to work all right- but then again, all we've got out of the way are mostly-narrative introductory sessions.  Mostly because until next weekend, I won't have all of my players together at the same time.  I got quite a bit of support on this, and I was shocked that two people dropped D&D games for it.  

If ICONS works better, I'll give it a try.  Not to dismiss anyone here, but I'm going to have a look elsewhere on the things mentioned to see what people say.  Not that I find anyone's opinion invalid- just that I want to see people saying the worst and the best things about the games, and they may highlight something that is a pet peeve to me.

Hey, Cruesader. I've got some old web pages on Aberrant - from the first edition in the early 2000s. I don't know if things have improved since then, but I found the editing to be pretty atrocious, although I liked some of the background ideas.

http://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/aberrant/

Quote from: tenbones;942168ICONS is very very very good. It would probably be my favorite supers-game if it weren't for the fact that I'm so deep into FASERIP that I don't really need ICONS to do what I'm already doing in FASERIP. They would play almost identically.

You can't go wrong with ICONS. It's a superb choice - and has some great support:

I find it very basic, so far.  It's not bad, but may be a little too vague for me.

Quote from: tenbones;942168ICONS is very very very good. It would probably be my favorite supers-game if it weren't for the fact that I'm so deep into FASERIP that I don't really need ICONS to do what I'm already doing in FASERIP. They would play almost identically.

You can't go wrong with ICONS. It's a superb choice - and has some great support:

https://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Characters+Conversions

What you're going to get out of ICON's is scalability and simplicity. Because it's using the FASERIP chassis but slightly scaled down numbers, it actually allows for faster gameplay than FASERIP (which is insanely fast once you understand it).

By the way, I have something for you.  You should check your PM's.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;942199I find it very basic, so far.  It's not bad, but may be a little too vague for me.

I liked the random chargen, plus the FATE-like elements. It also looked like it would run very easily. Are you missing a certain level of crunch?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;942199I find it very basic, so far.  It's not bad, but may be a little too vague for me.

I prefer the vague in this case.  I've yet to see a Superhero book that gives me fluff that I can stomach.  Using what I have right now, I can still honestly tell you that I am perfectly fine ignoring Aberrant's fluff.  And I most certainly want nothing to do with Champions.  

As it stands, "Quantum Blast" is a perfect example of vague.  "You blast [whatever it is you shoot]."

I like it.  Or is there something else in this system that you are talking about that isn't fluff?

Quote from: Crüesader;942439I prefer the vague in this case.  I've yet to see a Superhero book that gives me fluff that I can stomach.  Using what I have right now, I can still honestly tell you that I am perfectly fine ignoring Aberrant's fluff.  And I most certainly want nothing to do with Champions.  

As it stands, "Quantum Blast" is a perfect example of vague.  "You blast [whatever it is you shoot]."

I like it.  Or is there something else in this system that you are talking about that isn't fluff?

I need things like a range of what Amazing strength means, what's the minimum and maximum weight?  Nothing super definite, just a ballpark, but it doesn't give that much.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;942469I need things like a range of what Amazing strength means, what's the minimum and maximum weight?  Nothing super definite, just a ballpark, but it doesn't give that much.

Use the Benchmarks table on page 13, assuming you're looking at the Assembled Edition. The table covers stuff like strength, speed, and distance. So, for example, someone with Amazing Strength (Strength 8) could lift a jet or train. Bumping it to 9 would allow for a building to be lifted, and 10 puts one in the territory of tossing mountains around.

Quote from: Brand55;942474Use the Benchmarks table on page 13, assuming you're looking at the Assembled Edition. The table covers stuff like strength, speed, and distance. So, for example, someone with Amazing Strength (Strength 8) could lift a jet or train. Bumping it to 9 would allow for a building to be lifted, and 10 puts one in the territory of tossing mountains around.

What kind of jet plane?  Fighter?  747?  That's an incredibly wide range.  That's what I meant by vague.  It's not bad, but it's a bit too broad.

Golden Heroes (and successor to a lesser extent Squadron UK) was the best low (and by low I mean street and even sewer level supers. Guns are dangerous to some supers!) powered game I ever ran online thanks to its combat system of rounds/frames which really made battles zip along. Character generation is a mini game in itself as you roll a bunch of random powers and try to rationalise why they fit together, dropping those that don't. Very much old school, it's knocking on for 30 years old and it struggles with anything much above Spiderman type level, and certainly breaks at Cosmic level because I had to rewrite the game for our purposes. Still, at low levels for a 'Heroes' type campaign I thought it fit the bill very well.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;942492What kind of jet plane?  Fighter?  747?  That's an incredibly wide range.  That's what I meant by vague.  It's not bad, but it's a bit too broad.

Well, I hate to send you buying additional rules, but Supers! has benchmarks rendered in lbs and tons. I'd say the revised edition is rules medium, but the game runs extremely light. This is our go-to system when we run supers adventures. I can't vouch for how it holds up in long term campaigns, as we've only managed running about 5 sessions before wrapping up or dropping our adventures to return to the fantasy standard.

Quote from: APN;942506Golden Heroes (and successor to a lesser extent Squadron UK) was the best low (and by low I mean street and even sewer level supers. Guns are dangerous to some supers!) powered game I ever ran online thanks to its combat system of rounds/frames which really made battles zip along. Character generation is a mini game in itself as you roll a bunch of random powers and try to rationalise why they fit together, dropping those that don't. Very much old school, it's knocking on for 30 years old and it struggles with anything much above Spiderman type level, and certainly breaks at Cosmic level because I had to rewrite the game for our purposes. Still, at low levels for a 'Heroes' type campaign I thought it fit the bill very well.

I had that game for a spell, but never played it unfortunately.  Loved Alan Davis' art.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;942492What kind of jet plane?  Fighter?  747?  That's an incredibly wide range.  That's what I meant by vague.  It's not bad, but it's a bit too broad.

In FASERIP Amazing(50) strength could lift upwards of 50-tons. That said... there is a very little referenced rule in the Judges book that allows a character to make a Red-Psyche feat check, and push their strength up one-rank for that round. So in this case - Monstrous(75) which would increase it to 75-tons.

So as for what kinda jet - fighter? Sure. 747? Probably not. Tow it, maybe flip it. but lift one up by its fuselage? I think it would snap in half. 747's are 285-tons with an empty tank.

Quote from: tenbones;942528In FASERIP Amazing(50) strength could lift upwards of 50-tons. That said... there is a very little referenced rule in the Judges book that allows a character to make a Red-Psyche feat check, and push their strength up one-rank for that round. So in this case - Monstrous(75) which would increase it to 75-tons.

So as for what kinda jet - fighter? Sure. 747? Probably not. Tow it, maybe flip it. but lift one up by its fuselage? I think it would snap in half. 747's are 285-tons with an empty tank.

And a F-15 Strike Eagle, full take off weight is almost 31 metric tonnes. That's almost a 254t difference.  And a train locomotive is between a little less than 100t to a little over 200t.  All I need is an upper limit, and I'll work with it, but ICONS doesn't actually do that.

Don't get me wrong, I like it, and it looks it can handle it's own in the field, but it's little niggling things like those that bother me.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;942558And a F-15 Strike Eagle, full take off weight is almost 31 metric tonnes. That's almost a 254t difference.  And a train locomotive is between a little less than 100t to a little over 200t.  All I need is an upper limit, and I'll work with it, but ICONS doesn't actually do that.

Don't get me wrong, I like it, and it looks it can handle it's own in the field, but it's little niggling things like those that bother me.

Yet complete lack of fuel and ammo information, not even an "upper limit" doesn't bother you at all.  Interesting.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;942558And a F-15 Strike Eagle, full take off weight is almost 31 metric tonnes. That's almost a 254t difference.  And a train locomotive is between a little less than 100t to a little over 200t.  All I need is an upper limit, and I'll work with it, but ICONS doesn't actually do that.

Don't get me wrong, I like it, and it looks it can handle it's own in the field, but it's little niggling things like those that bother me.

Well I confess, I've dabbled with ICONs because it's largely compatible with FASERIP. But I'm a FASERIP guy. so yeah...

Can I easily make the X-men and run an X-men movie level game with ICONs?

How much tapping of aspects goes on in gameplay?

AKA, how much does it play like FATE?

Quote from: tenbones;942586Well I confess, I've dabbled with ICONs because it's largely compatible with FASERIP. But I'm a FASERIP guy. so yeah...

FASERIP, even with it's own little niggles is much more clear than ICONS at this point, but again, I LIKE ICONS and I'm going to try it out.

Quote from: Spinachcat;942596Can I easily make the X-men and run an X-men movie level game with ICONs?

How much tapping of aspects goes on in gameplay?

AKA, how much does it play like FATE?

It doesn't feel very much like FATE to me.  But I haven't played it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;942596Can I easily make the X-men and run an X-men movie level game with ICONs?

How much tapping of aspects goes on in gameplay?

AKA, how much does it play like FATE?

Yeah, ICONS could handle the X-Men pretty easily.

Aspects (or Qualities as they're called in ICONS) differ a little bit depending on whether you have the original version of the game or the Assembled Edition. The AE treats Qualities much more like full-blown Aspects, but their use was downplayed a bit originally. That said, it's not hard to limit them so the game is less FATE-like. Characters only have three and I only allowed them to be used for a +2 bonus on pertinent rolls, which is just one of their possible uses in the new edition. They really weren't a constant presence during the game. They came up periodically but not nearly as often as aspects in a FATE game.

Ok, so first: Champion's infamous 'Math' isn't nearly as scary as people make it out to be.  Did you graduate elementary school? Then you should be fine. There's even lookup tables to speed everything. Also, and I've seen a bazillion Super games so I speak with some authority, it provides an unparalleled ability to define your actual super powers. Most of the games people point to with similar levels of flexibility are really just lazy copies of Champion's with 'less math'.   And, on Champions: Mocking the setting of champions is a bit like blaming Scary Movie for Scream not being all that scary...  Seriously, dude.  Its clearly a cheap pastiche of existing comic book themes and characters to get you jumpstarted.


So, second: Aberrant.

The rules are ball cancer. No, they are ball cancer on a sewer rat with AIDS and Smallpox.  No question there.  There are some inspirational super character ideas in there, but in a system so poorly concieved that it thinks the Alien Baby in Aliens Ressurection is, like, Mozart or something.

That said the setting is not that bad.

Badly written and presented? Absolutely. But you're talking about making a super game grounded in the 'real world', where Supers are sort of new and not govered by four color tropes?  Take a second, deeper look at Aberrant.  The problem isn't the ideas behind the setting, its the people behind those ideas and their absolutely retarded take on teh world.

Seriously: Supers used as mercenary proxy-armies for real world conflicts?  Bad ass concept.
              Supers as WWE replacements on a bigger scale?  Bad ass concept.
              Conflicts between Superhuman Supremecists and Mundane Supremecists with actual murders and terrorism from both sides? Bad ass concept, ruined by being written by actual morons with all the moral grounding of our previously mentioned sewer rat.  Seriously. The Count character... is Richard Spencer, the sorta-nazi that everyone has been cheering over getting punched in teh face, only in Aberrant he's some sort of super sexy ultra suave cool guy who gets invited to all the best parties, despite the fact that he's the publicly accepted face of mass murdering genocidal monsters who don't believe in any checks (not even other supers) on their actions. Utter, solipsistic amoral fuckwits. But the Count? He's groovy. Hell, they are all cool cats, and their genocidal solipsistic amoral philosophy is totally cool and valid, because (and I'm not even kidding!) they are like down with the ghey, man!   Of course, the ONLY people who might dare question their attitude are religious nutjobs, and caricatures, at that.

Moral relativism at its very worst, coupled with painfully in your face virtue signalling and special snowflakisms.  

That's bad, sure enough. But take another look at the ideas in teh setting and tell me they don't match up with a world suddenly 'gifted' with people with almost four color style powers in an otherwise 'real' setting.  Maybe its too powerful for ya, sure.  

Then again: Brave New World (which someone else suggested earlier) is, or should be, too LOW powered for anyone to seriously consider.   Its the Watchmen setting with the serial numbers filed of, where the Night Owl and Silk Spectre get into a fight with a random street gang and you find their mutilated bodies in the dumpster in the morning.  Seriously, you usually get two powers per super-package, neither one of which is the equal to real stuff except the ability to fly slightly faster than people run.  Blasters? Carry a fucking nine mil pistol, and you'll be as dangerous...no, more dangerous, since the gun can be fired multiple times a turn, and wear a bulletproof vest so you'll have twice the armor! Couple that with the Gadgeteers and Barginers literally being more powerful than every other class (because they can literally be EVERY OTHER CLASS!!!... no, seriously: Every NPC gadgeteer literally has a flying armored suit that gives him the blaster powers, the flying powers and more armor than blasters and flyers get, essentially being twice the character in one class!), and Brave New World is a big Nope.  Never mind that the writing for the setting seems to have the same basic problem as Aberrant: Plenty of cool ideas ruined by shitty and self involved writing. Also: Metaplot.

Quote from: Spike;942643Ok, so first: Champion's infamous 'Math' isn't nearly as scary as people make it out to be.  Did you graduate elementary school? Then you should be fine. There's even lookup tables to speed everything. Also, and I've seen a bazillion Super games so I speak with some authority, it provides an unparalleled ability to define your actual super powers. Most of the games people point to with similar levels of flexibility are really just lazy copies of Champion's with 'less math'.  

I've all but abandoned my search for a superhero RPG, and would default to Savage Worlds with the Super Powers Companion (partly out of laziness, partly out of sincere belief that SW can handle trad comic book action) make me want to look into the Hero System again.

Quote from: Spike;942643And, on Champions: Mocking the setting of champions is a bit like blaming Scary Movie for Scream not being all that scary...  Seriously, dude.  Its clearly a cheap pastiche of existing comic book themes and characters to get you jumpstarted.

I am only passingly familiar with it but I like it well enough. Yeah, many characters are thinly-veiled stand-ins.

Quote from: Spike;942643So, second: Aberrant.

The rules are ball cancer. No, they are ball cancer on a sewer rat with AIDS and Smallpox.

Aberrant and Brand New World both strike me as the sort of setting that Wild Talents does well. I'm not sure it can handle classic four-color Silver or Bronze Age antics, but it apparently does a good job with "gritty supers" from The Authority to Zack Snyder's DC Murderverse.

Come on, Spike, tell us how you really feel.

(By the by I agree with everything you said.  The White Wings Exalted quote about how that game was written about heroes by people who hate heroes and have little concept of what epic counts for Aberrant, by changing hero to superhero, in my opinion.)

Quote from: Spike;942643Ok, so first: Champion's infamous 'Math' isn't nearly as scary as people make it out to be.  Did you graduate elementary school?

I concur the math is just a bunch of multiplication done in the right order. However you are missing the fact that the Hero System has a huge shopping list of powers, enhancements and limitations.  That is a genuinely intimidating to people. Personally I recommend the Until Superpowers Database I and II they provide dozens of worked out example of super powers along with the exact breakdown of how they are built.

Once you mastered the system it is thing of wonder to use. The only problem I have is managing expectations. People come in wanting to be Superman of the 70s but wind up starting out like Superman of Action Comic #1 due to the fact they have only so many points to spend at first.

One players was a right royal pain in the ass about this. To the point where his best friend turn to him and says. "Look you are trying to play Batman as he is in the JLA, but really your character right now is Batman when he was in Year One. Just cut it out and focus on what you can do."

Quote from: Spike;942643I've seen a bazillion Super games so I speak with some authority, it provides an unparalleled ability to define your actual super powers. Most of the games people point to with similar levels of flexibility are really just lazy copies of Champion's with 'less math'.

My technique is to sit down with the player and ask him to describe what his superhero is like. I stress that this is going to be a Year One version to manage expectations. Then I make up the character after working through the options with the player. It only a takes a few sessions before they get a hang of manipulating the powers mechanics and most start digging into the books to plan out how their character will grow. The combat system is elegantly designed so it easy to see how everything works in a fight.

By far my favorite superhero game.

I'd say that this is an issue with any superhero game. Until the players have sat through a few sessions, built a few characters in any given system, managing their expectations of power vs rules is going to be an issue.

More than an issue than other genres? I mean: if you had a new player who read a bunch of conan comicbooks and was playing in his first ever D&D game, doncha think it'd take him a little bit to manage his expectations?   I think its more Obvious, and that it will effect even experienced gamers. He'll I practically broke a GM at a con my first ever Champions game (way back in... 1989 or so? 1990?... before 1992, I'm sure), when he had pre-built street level characters for us all, low levels of power... and I decided dropping of a skyscraper was a better way 'down' then the alternatives. I've never seen a GM reroll damage dice so many times trying to kill me before, and failing.  My street level character may not have been 'powerful', but he could definitely take a fall. 2 body damage when it was all said and done, nobody bothered to count up the stun damage.  30 dice.

That power's database sounds like a good resource, but those are the sorts of supplements that make me feel like I wasted my money. I ENJOY building my own characters, playing with systems to see what I can do. NPCs? Sure, give me a book of prebuilts, but powers and stuff?  Only if there are actual NEW THINGS in it.

Does anyone have experience with BASH? I recently purchased it but haven't played it yet. I got it because it seems to offer much of the same flexibility as Champions. Any thoughts?

Quote from: Spike;942643Ok, so first: Champion's infamous 'Math' isn't nearly as scary as people make it out to be.  Did you graduate elementary school? Then you should be fine.

Look, Trump is president.  Clearly elementary school math is a problem for many grown Americans.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;942754Look, Trump is president.  Clearly elementary school math is a problem for many grown Americans.

JG

I doubt very many gamers are working in major news media, so I'm not sure I see your point.

Quote from: CanBeOnlyOne;942719Does anyone have experience with BASH? I recently purchased it but haven't played it yet. I got it because it seems to offer much of the same flexibility as Champions. Any thoughts?

It's a good game. I don't know if it is as flexible as Champions, but it's pretty close. It's been likened more to M&M, iirc.  But I've had fun both playing and running it in the past. The Awesome Powers line of supplements really makes the system shine, showcasing how you can take the core rules, and mod them to create various new powers.

Quote from: James Gillen;942754Look, Trump is president.  Clearly elementary school math is a problem for many grown Americans.

JG

Heh. Not on point, but my favorite crazy-ass thing so far (out of a whole buttload of crazy ass) is that he thinks he made the sun come out during rain at inauguration, then when he stopped speaking, it rained again (while eyewitnesses report that clearly, the opposite happened).

Quote from: Spike;942760I doubt very many gamers are working in major news media, so I'm not sure I see your point.

The amount of self-administered insulation from facts and truth is just as prevalent on this site as it throughout the country. Of course, we now live an age where you can have "alternative facts," so I guess it's all right.

Forget to respond to the BASH question. It's a flexible as any other system out there, plus the resolution system (exploding dice on doubles) allows you some over the top results, which I like quite a bit. It has a decent section on running different types of campaigns. But, again, another system I've never been able to get a group to commit to. I can't report actual play, outside of what others have posted.

Quote from: cranebump;942797The amount of self-administered insulation from facts and truth is just as prevalent on this site as it throughout the country. Of course, we now live an age where you can have "alternative facts," so I guess it's all right.

Oh. God.


You...you're asking me to explain the joke, aren't you?

Well... I won't. I just won't. It never, ever works. Robin Freaking Williams couldn't get away with explaining a joke, even in his coke days. You expect me, a lowly forum shitposter, to do better?

Nope. Not gonna happen. You'll just have to carry on in ignorance.

Quote from: Spike;942859Oh. God.


You...you're asking me to explain the joke, aren't you?

Well... I won't. I just won't. It never, ever works. Robin Freaking Williams couldn't get away with explaining a joke, even in his coke days. You expect me, a lowly forum shitposter, to do better?

Nope. Not gonna happen. You'll just have to carry on in ignorance.

Well, here's another asshole for the block list.

Quote from: cranebump;942868Well, here's another asshole for the block list.

I'll be here all week!

Quote from: Spike;942760I doubt very many gamers are working in major news media, so I'm not sure I see your point.

The point is that if you can't figure out that Trump would do for the country what he did for Atlantic City, you can't figure out Champions math.  And that seems to be the description of a lot of people.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;942911The point is that if you can't figure out that Trump would do for the country what he did for Atlantic City, you can't figure out Champions math.  And that seems to be the description of a lot of people.

JG

Oh... Oh God!

You...

You're asking me to explain the joke....

etc...
etc...
etc...


Sigh....

And Hillary Clinton had a 95% chance of winning the election according to the news media polls on Election Night. The JOKE being that the media clearly can't do basic math, since they, and their own polls, were clearly not based in any mathematical basis.

Har. Fucking. Har.

See? They can't do basic math. So they shouldn't play Champions, right? That's the set up. The PUNCHLINE being... and this is where the actual HUMOR comes from... I know, I know.. you're waiting with baited breath... people in the news media DON'T PLAY RPGS!!!!


Isn't it SOOOOOO much funnier now that I've explained it?!!!!


But carry on with your partisan blinders.  I'll quote a lot of non-gamers I know on this. Nobody voted for Trump because they were sure he'd be a great president, they voted for Revenge!!!  

Trumpkins are Edmund Dantes, and Trump was their shady business deal to lure Danglars into his own doom.  

THe curious capstone being that the LIKE what he's done the first week in office.

Quote from: estar;942656I concur the math is just a bunch of multiplication done in the right order. However you are missing the fact that the Hero System has a huge shopping list of powers, enhancements and limitations.  That is a genuinely intimidating to people. Personally I recommend the Until Superpowers Database I and II they provide dozens of worked out example of super powers along with the exact breakdown of how they are built.

Once you mastered the system it is thing of wonder to use. The only problem I have is managing expectations. People come in wanting to be Superman of the 70s but wind up starting out like Superman of Action Comic #1 due to the fact they have only so many points to spend at first.

One players was a right royal pain in the ass about this. To the point where his best friend turn to him and says. "Look you are trying to play Batman as he is in the JLA, but really your character right now is Batman when he was in Year One. Just cut it out and focus on what you can do."



My technique is to sit down with the player and ask him to describe what his superhero is like. I stress that this is going to be a Year One version to manage expectations. Then I make up the character after working through the options with the player. It only a takes a few sessions before they get a hang of manipulating the powers mechanics and most start digging into the books to plan out how their character will grow. The combat system is elegantly designed so it easy to see how everything works in a fight.

By far my favorite superhero game.

I think the key with letting players build pastiche versions of famous characters is to stress that they are building rookie versions.  This is especially important if the group is new to HERO.  An experienced group & GM could probably handle experienced JLA level characters but there is a lot more going on at that level of play to keep everything balanced and manageable.

Quote from: Spike;942712I'd say that this is an issue with any superhero game. Until the players have sat through a few sessions, built a few characters in any given system, managing their expectations of power vs rules is going to be an issue.

More than an issue than other genres? I mean: if you had a new player who read a bunch of conan comicbooks and was playing in his first ever D&D game, doncha think it'd take him a little bit to manage his expectations?   I think its more Obvious, and that it will effect even experienced gamers. He'll I practically broke a GM at a con my first ever Champions game (way back in... 1989 or so? 1990?... before 1992, I'm sure), when he had pre-built street level characters for us all, low levels of power... and I decided dropping of a skyscraper was a better way 'down' then the alternatives. I've never seen a GM reroll damage dice so many times trying to kill me before, and failing.  My street level character may not have been 'powerful', but he could definitely take a fall. 2 body damage when it was all said and done, nobody bothered to count up the stun damage.  30 dice.

That power's database sounds like a good resource, but those are the sorts of supplements that make me feel like I wasted my money. I ENJOY building my own characters, playing with systems to see what I can do. NPCs? Sure, give me a book of prebuilts, but powers and stuff?  Only if there are actual NEW THINGS in it.

I agree that the USPD and Champions Powers books were rather bland to me as well. I probably learned more about HERO character design from Classic Enemies but that's not a good strategy for all players.  While the other books are a little bland they serve a good purpose by providing a common baseline starting point, especially for players used to dealing with 'shopping lists' in other systems.

HM

Quote from: Spike;942915Sigh....

And Hillary Clinton had a 95% chance of winning the election according to the news media polls on Election Night. The JOKE being that the media clearly can't do basic math, since they, and their own polls, were clearly not based in any mathematical basis.

Har. Fucking. Har.

See? They can't do basic math. So they shouldn't play Champions, right? That's the set up. The PUNCHLINE being... and this is where the actual HUMOR comes from... I know, I know.. you're waiting with baited breath... people in the news media DON'T PLAY RPGS!!!!

The news media by and large didn't vote for Trump.  And tip, if you really have to explain the joke, maybe that's cause it wasn't funny.
The fact that the press are morons who can't read statistics isn't news.  After all the Democrats couldn't either.
But let's move on.
I was agreeing with you that the Hero System math isn't that hard.  It's just that there's a lot OF it.
I had said back when I was still on The Banning Place that "I have no respect for the argument that 'Hero System requires a Ph. D in Math."  I CAN respect the more nuanced argument, "I can do all this math, but I shouldn't have to."
Of course, even as I'm getting a little burned out on Hero, I still have that many more problems with everything else, especially the games other people keep telling me are better "cause they're not point-buy."

jg

Fuck the political talk in the RPG section.

That's what Pundency is for.

Wank it and spank it to your heart's content in RPGPundit's Own Forum.

[and yes, I gotta remember that too!]

I loved FASERIP as a kid but haven't played any superhero rpg since. Does FASERIP stand  up to use today?

I recently discovered that all the Marvel Superhero material is available free and legal on the fan site, I'm a bit surprised that Marvel is okay with their trademarked content being given away for free.

Quote from: Voros;942940I loved FASERIP as a kid but haven't played any superhero rpg since. Does FASERIP stand  up to use today?

As someone who dislikes some of the quirks of FASERIP, I'd have to say that, yeah, it does.  It's as good as it always was (and take that any way you want to.)

Quote from: Voros;942940I recently discovered that all the Marvel Superhero material is available free and legal on the fan site, I'm a bit surprised that Marvel is okay with their trademarked content being given away for free.

Really?  I will have to inform my friends then.  They're big fans of the system.

Quote from: James Gillen;942925The news media by and large didn't vote for Trump.  And tip, if you really have to explain the joke, maybe that's cause it wasn't funny.
The fact that the press are morons who can't read statistics isn't news.  After all the Democrats couldn't either.

Well, at the expense of beating a dead horse, Le Grande Orange Douche Bag won thanks to less than a million votes in a few key states (Trump thought he as going to lose, as well). But, you're right. The joke wasn't funny. Still isn't.

On a semi-related subject of "not being able to do math," the question I have concerning HERO system and running supers is whether doing math is the point of running that genre. I would think it's about whether the system captures the so-called "feel" of being a Super Hero, rather than whether or not it balances out what everyone can do. My beef with it is that it isn't much of a "hit the ground running" system, which is where my gaming tastes run these days.

One system not mentioned here is MURPG. Never cared much for the dependence on an energy pool, but I always wondered what it would play like if someone hacked it into a "success" system, like the DC game (was it DC Heroes?).

Quote from: Spinachcat;942926Fuck the political talk in the RPG section.

That's what Pundency is for.

Wank it and spank it to your heart's content in RPGPundit's Own Forum.

[and yes, I gotta remember that too!]

Don't look at me, man. I tried to blow it off with a snarky offhand comment, I really truly did, but god damn me if people just really want to turn this thread into a political bitch fest.  

I'm bowing out.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;942950pAs someone who dislikes some of the quirks of FASERIP, I'd have to say that, yeah, it does.  It's as good as it always was (and take that any way you want to.)



Really?  I will have to inform my friends then.  They're big fans of the system.

Thanks, I may try and run one shot to see how it goes. My taste runs to Frank Miller era Daredevil but 70s X-Men could be fun too.

Here is the site for ease of reference Classic Marvel Forever. (http://classicmarvelforever.com/cms/) Since it has been up for nearly 20 years I think there's little chance of a cease and desist anytime soon.

I guess that partially speaks to the financial weakness of the RPG market. I read that Maragret Weis's company abandoned their praised Marvel game because the sales weren't making it profitable.

This was in 2011-13. If a RPG can't attract enough buyers at the peak of the superhero trend that really isn't too promising for RPGs. But then the head of Evil Hat once said the health of the hobby is tied pretty directly to D&D, when it does well everyone else does better. Since 5e is doing so well the market is probably better now than back then. Board games and actual play podcasts and streams also seem to be giving the market a boost.

Quote from: cranebump;942967On a semi-related subject of "not being able to do math," the question I have concerning HERO system and running supers is whether doing math is the point of running that genre. I would think it's about whether the system captures the so-called "feel" of being a Super Hero, rather than whether or not it balances out what everyone can do. My beef with it is that it isn't much of a "hit the ground running" system, which is where my gaming tastes run these days.

I think M&M might be a better "hit the ground running" system, but both it and Champions require a certain level of math.  I do think that with the use of Hero Points to simulate power stunts that aren't on the character sheet, M&M is better at comicbook "feel" although I prefer Champions' level of crunch.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;942996I think M&M might be a better "hit the ground running" system, but both it and Champions require a certain level of math.  I do think that with the use of Hero Points to simulate power stunts that aren't on the character sheet, M&M is better at comicbook "feel" although I prefer Champions' level of crunch.

JG

I preview M&M a loooooong time ago, but it seemed like it was on the order of running 3.5. Would that be about where it fits?

Also, where does Champion's math lie?
Is it like GURPS, where everything is relatively straightforward once you create characters... or is an ongoing thing that all players must be on board with?
I already like GURPS... so I'm wondering what Champions brings. It's one of those systems I've generally heard favorable chatter about, but never engaged with at all (except for the online MMO version).

Quote from: Simlasa;943000Also, where does Champion's math lie?
Is it like GURPS, where everything is relatively straightforward once you create characters... or is an ongoing thing that all players must be on board with?
I already like GURPS... so I'm wondering what Champions brings. It's one of those systems I've generally heard favorable chatter about, but never engaged with at all (except for the online MMO version).

Once characters are created the most complicated math is typically rolling for 'effect' since the target will usually have some type of defense to compare that number against. (Example: In supers, the number of dice rolled for 'normal' damage from a punch can exceed 12d6 with 2 types of damage tracked. This result then gets reduced by defenses to determine damage actually taken).  Other than that, the game play combat engine is actually quite elegant and gets out of the way the more familiar you become with the system.  The other big complaint thrown at HERO is that combats can take too long.  This is a direct result of how complicated the characters are that the players bring to the game.  Like GURPS, HERO combat can border on bullet-time level of detail IF you want it to.  It can be played much faster as well.  It just depends on the GM and Players all being on the same page at campaign outset.

The Champions Online MMO did not use the HERO System rules. It only used the IP of the Champions Universe setting as a last minute stand-in for the Marvel Universe when Marvel pulled out of their deal with Cryptic.

HM

The 'problem' (note the quotations, it COULD be an issue for someone, not saying that it IS) with HERO is that it's all front-loaded during character creation, and it's really loaded with a lot of work, more so than a lot of other games.

But once that's done, it's really a basic system.  But that first cliff can be a doozy to tackle for some people.

Quote from: Simlasa;943000Also, where does Champion's math lie?
Is it like GURPS, where everything is relatively straightforward once you create characters... or is an ongoing thing that all players must be on board with?
I already like GURPS... so I'm wondering what Champions brings. It's one of those systems I've generally heard favorable chatter about, but never engaged with at all (except for the online MMO version).

Put it this way- anybody who wants to bitch about Hero System math has obviously never played GURPS.

JG

Quote from: Voros;942992I guess that partially speaks to the financial weakness of the RPG market. I read that Maragret Weis's company abandoned their praised Marvel game because the sales weren't making it profitable.

This was in 2011-13. If a RPG can't attract enough buyers at the peak of the superhero trend that really isn't too promising for RPGs. But then the head of Evil Hat once said the health of the hobby is tied pretty directly to D&D, when it does well everyone else does better. Since 5e is doing so well the market is probably better now than back then. Board games and actual play podcasts and streams also seem to be giving the market a boost.

I think part of the issue with MHR was the event structure. I know it turned me off on the game (along with some of the fiddly bits), so I don't agree it was all due to the market. M&M didn't have the same issue, nor did ICONS. MHR was an interesting idea that just didn't float with enough gamers to make it profitable for MWP.

As an aside, I played a demo of the Sentinels of the Multiverse rpg at GenCon last year. Plays like MHR, but seems less fiddly. That will kickstart later this year.

Quote from: cranebump;942997I preview M&M a loooooong time ago, but it seemed like it was on the order of running 3.5. Would that be about where it fits?

It's not nearly so bad. M&M is much like Hero in that nearly all of the math is front-loaded in character creation. Once you get past that, pretty much everything you do boils down to a single roll of d20 + value against a fixed target or opposed roll (with possible modifiers to your roll being +/- 2 or 5 for situational effects). Effects are sometimes based on how much you beat the target number, but that's always done in multiples of five so even that math isn't much of a problem for most people. Ultimately, M&M can be a bit daunting to learn if you're reading it for the first time but it's not bad at all once you sit down and get a little experience with it.

I think the biggest thing that hurt Hero was people making 400 point flashlights, or 350 point toasters.  There was this desire to create everything and it just got mind numbing fast.  

I think the best iteration of the rules is the big blue book.  There's a pared down version out there thats' good.

Please stop with any politics talk on this thread.

Quote from: RPGPundit;944035Please stop with any politics talk on this thread.

To be fair, I admired the way it was delivered as a jest, but I took particular offense at the math.  That's where I drew the line.

Quote from: RunningLaser;940678The 4th edition of Champions isn't as bad as 5th and 6th, at least from an eye bleed standpoint.  Makes me think that the earlier editions were probably even easier.

The problem with 4th edition Champions was not the system itself. But in the fact that the company never established a set of character guidelines for author submitted material. And as a result, you ended up with sourcebooks operating on wildly different power levels. It was a mess to go through. To say the least.

As a longtime Champions gamer: I prefer the 4th edition baseline power levels. Because they kept characters pretty basic. 5th and 6th editions pushed character complexity too far for my comfort.

My tastes have also matured and shifted. Away from high complexity, high mechanics systems like Hero. To more story focused games. Like Icons, FATE, Daring Comics, and Supers.

Story to me has become the most important driver in the RPGs I play and run. What I want to see from players is: Characters who have lots of juicy story leads for a GM to be able to interact with and use in an entertaining manner. Not just a collection of character points that have little meaning behind them.

Too many times with Champions: I would see players loading their characters down with Disadvantages/Complications just to get the character points for them. But in play, they would completely forget them. And they would end up having little meaning or actual contribution to the campaign they were playing.

I commonly watched characters treated as little more than board game pieces. And combat being treated as the totality of the experience. And I didn't find that fun. I found it absolutely boring.

Quote from: James Gillen;943047Put it this way- anybody who wants to bitch about Hero System math has obviously never played GURPS.

JG

I have.

And my problem with GURPS wasn't its math. It was the fact that characters that exceeded human power levels caused the system to fall apart.

There is only so much fudging a GM can do in GURPS when they have to deal with characters that break the system.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;944649I have.

And my problem with GURPS wasn't its math. It was the fact that characters that exceeded human power levels caused the system to fall apart.

There is only so much fudging a GM can do in GURPS when they have to deal with characters that break the system.

Well, when I say too much math, I mean even in terms of the system's favored power levels.  I speak mainly of using vehicles in GURPS WW2 sourcebooks.  Which matters given that the strength of something like a Sherman tank was its ability to be modified in the field, which seems to imply a system that will allow you to modify a vehicle.  And GURPS WW2 was the "Lite" version of the system.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;944660Well, when I say too much math, I mean even in terms of the system's favored power levels.  I speak mainly of using vehicles in GURPS WW2 sourcebooks.  Which matters given that the strength of something like a Sherman tank was its ability to be modified in the field, which seems to imply a system that will allow you to modify a vehicle.  And GURPS WW2 was the "Lite" version of the system.

JG

Yes, Well I never got into the vehicle side of it. Which was probably for the best.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;944675Yes, Well I never got into the vehicle side of it. Which was probably for the best.

Probably.

jg

Champions and GURPS were both awful for supers.  So was DC Heroes, though.

Quote from: RPGPundit;945163Champions and GURPS were both awful for supers.  So was DC Heroes, though.

DC Heroes was not good, but it had some genre simulation, and it was certainly better for that task than GURPS.

JG

Quote from: RPGPundit;945163Champions and GURPS were both awful for supers.  So was DC Heroes, though.

Once again Pundit comments, without providing any kind of support for his comment, on a game he likely never played. Good to see consistency somewhere in the world.

Quote from: Matt;945263Once again Pundit comments, without providing any kind of support for his comment, on a game he likely never played. Good to see consistency somewhere in the world.

Actually. He's right.

GURPS and Hero best handle human power levels. Beyond that. The character generation systems start falling apart. And become unwieldy.

I say this: Because I have extensive experience with both systems.

Wait, how can Champions be bad at emulating supers? That's the system's original genre, isn't it?

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;945270Actually. He's right.

Why? Give some details or you're just doing the Pundit, presenting opinions as facts.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;945283Wait, how can Champions be bad at emulating supers? That's the system's original genre, isn't it?

It was the first genre. However. The system worked far better for games at the heroic level. Where the impact of the power creation system was mostly disregarded.

Justice Inc. and Danger International were the most successful executions of the Hero System. But those games almost completely did away with the power creation cruft. They simulated their genres very well. But did not tip the complexity scale the way Champions did.

Even when they did initial editions of Fantasy Hero. They kept things simple. They only used the bare basics of power creation for spells and such. But left out the more complex constructs. Like Elemental Controls, Multipowers, and Variable Power Pools. They kept it simple. And it worked.

Power creation has always been the problem with the Hero System. It's where the complexity raises its head the most. And that system outright rewards people for statting absolutely everything out to great detail. It is also where it works against the game's playability.

The workload to run Champions is high. The higher the detail of characters. The more time it takes for every level of campaign management on the GM's end.

And heaven forbid if you have immature players who get off on the game's slant toward rewarding complexity. They have a tendency to ratchet up the workload on the GM to overbearing levels.

I co-GM'd a 6th Edition Champions campaign a couple of years ago. We ended up having a pair of uncooperative immature players that finally pushed the group to complete detonation.

One of those players was fixated on exploiting flaws in the game system. Whenever the GMs went through his characters and found problems, he would instantly make another that was just as exploitive in another way. Which detracted heavily from the ability of the GMs involved to focus on creating good story content. And actually entertaining the whole group. Instead of just giving all of their attention to that one player.

The other player didn't want to contribute anything to the group at all. He expected everybody else to provide his entertainment. But never once reciprocated. Never once contributed actual ideas or any real participation in said campaign. He was just occupying a seat. Expecting everybody else to do for him.

GAH! Just thinking about those two brings back waves of frustration!

Are you saying that HERO is responsible for creating powergaming and selfish players?  I can understand the frustration with dealing with those sorts of players but I don't think the particular game being played had anything to do with their behavior.  Any successful and fun RPG campaign requires a social contract among all participants.  

HM

Quote from: Hyper-Man;945324Are you saying that HERO is responsible for creating powergaming and selfish players?  I can understand the frustration with dealing with those sorts of players but I don't think the particular game being played had anything to do with their behavior.  Any successful and fun RPG campaign requires a social contract among all participants.  

HM

No. I'm not. Powergamers have existed since before roleplaying games were even a glimmer in Gygax's eye. Wargaming has been infested with them for most of my life's memory.

This isn't exclusively a Hero System thing. It's a whole hobby thing. The more complicated a system tends to be, the more prone misuse and exploitation it is. Some players just can't help themselves. They truly lack the maturity to play well with others.

This may be a "nerd hobby". But I don't think anyone should be expected to or forced to accept immature unacceptable behavior. The buck has to stop some place.

But one thing here absolutely cannot be ignored. And that is the culture that has developed around these complex game systems. The culture certainly has its bad actors.

But the complex game systems do enable and feed that culture of bad actors. Ignoring that componant of the condition only helps in furthering that culture of bad actors.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;945333But one thing here absolutely cannot be ignored. And that is the culture that has developed around these complex game systems. The culture certainly has its bad actors.

But the complex game systems do enable and feed that culture of bad actors. Ignoring that componant of the condition only helps in furthering that culture of bad actors.

Nope. This is a people issue. Stop playing with shitheads.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;945341Nope. This is a people issue. Stop playing with shitheads.

It's more than just a people issue. It's also a system issue. The system being the vehicle used in the misbehavior.

If you just deal with those shitheads. Then the vehicle that enabled them to be shitheads in the first place is still there.

If you don't deal with all of the underlying issues that enabled them to be shitheads in the first place. You risk facing more shitheads doing the exact same things down the road.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;945362It's more than just a people issue. It's also a system issue. The system being the vehicle used in the misbehavior.

If you just deal with those shitheads. Then the vehicle that enabled them to be shitheads in the first place is still there.

If you don't deal with all of the underlying issues that enabled them to be shitheads in the first place. You risk facing more shitheads doing the exact same things down the road.

So don't play D&D?  Or GURPS?  Or WoD?  Or...

No, DeadUematsu has the right of it.  Stop playing with dicks.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;945362It's more than just a people issue. It's also a system issue. The system being the vehicle used in the misbehavior.

If you just deal with those shitheads. Then the vehicle that enabled them to be shitheads in the first place is still there.

If you don't deal with all of the underlying issues that enabled them to be shitheads in the first place. You risk facing more shitheads doing the exact same things down the road.

lol, you hold game systems responsible for enforcing people's behaviour?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;945365lol, you hold game systems responsible for enforcing people's behaviour?

If a game system is broken in a way that it becomes what I consider a liability to having fun. I replace it.

If a game system is broken in a way that outright encourages bad behavior, I consider it a liability. And there-for, a priority for immediate replacement.

I replaced the Hero System's role in my life with something I consider infinitely better for running superhero genre games. Something without the management headaches or the built in incentivizing of bad behavior.

I played Champions days after its release, and stuck with it until 4th. Like Palladium, HERO requires a strong GM who can say "NO MUTHAFUCKA NO" to players, especially during chargen.

My favorite HERO system game is Robot Warriors. FOR ME, its the best mecha RPG because the mecha creation rules are amazingly simple and fun and the human level is solid too. Damn, I ran so many campaigns of RW back in the day.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;945368If a game system is broken in a way that it becomes what I consider a liability to having fun. I replace it.

If a game system is broken in a way that outright encourages bad behavior, I consider it a liability. And there-for, a priority for immediate replacement.

I replaced the Hero System's role in my life with something I consider infinitely better for running superhero genre games. Something without the management headaches or the built in incentivizing of bad behavior.

 But even if we accept  that it inherently incentivizes bad players and is thus inherently bad ( and I don't)  or even the more general case that it is unwieldy to run because it is so complex,  that does not make it necessarily bad for running superhero games.

 It may make it bad for your priorities.  It may make it more complex than other alternatives --  although I do not see anybody refuting that point.

 It can be all of those things and still be perfectly acceptable for running superhero games,  which was the original point of contention.  I say this as someone who, never having played it, has no vested interest in defending Hero.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;945368I replaced the Hero System's role in my life with something I consider infinitely better for running superhero genre games. Something without the management headaches or the built in incentivizing of bad behavior.

What would that be again?

jg

I'm partial to using 2nd Edition Mutants and Masterminds with a couple of M&M3 inspired house rules and an alternate hp mechanic;

1) The total of your Fort, Reflex and Will saves cannot exceed 3x your Power Level and you cannot take more ranks of Impervious Defense than your Power Level.

2) Mind control uses the 3e affliction stages instead of being essentially all or nothing (it was hsutting down way too many fights with a single failed save).

3) Heroes get 50 hit points (minions get 10 hp). At 20 hp or less you are staggered (one action per turn). Damage dealt is 1d20 + power ranks. The target then subtracts the relevant save modifier from the damage dealt. Successful recobery checks restore 10 hit points. In addition to removing the one hit KO from fights, it also made it much easier to use NPC's right out of the books without having to do DC calculations for everything.

Characters can be somewhat complex to build (or not, depending on your willingness to use alternate powers and such), but once you're in play its pretty fast and intuitive.

While not technically an RPG. I do rather like the simple rules presented in  Shades of Grey for the Cthulhu Live LARP system.

Quote from: Matt;945263Once again Pundit comments, without providing any kind of support for his comment, on a game he likely never played. Good to see consistency somewhere in the world.

I've played all three of the games I mentioned, little bitch. I've probably played more RPGs than anyone on this fucking site. But keep right on making a fool of yourself trying to lie about me because you've got nothing else.

Quote from: RPGPundit;946538I've played all three of the games I mentioned, little bitch. I've probably played more RPGs than anyone on this fucking site. But keep right on making a fool of yourself trying to lie about me because you've got nothing else.

and smoked more pipe
and cast more spellz
and begged for more attention
and acted more childish
your list goes on and on.....

Quote from: Sommerjon;946636your list goes on and on.....

And yet made no attempt to justify his dismissive drive-by statement. Such greatness must be very busy.

the funny thing about "people-issues" this thread is the best indicator of how to urinate all over all systems rendering them undesirable in various ways purely for the sake of people attacking people.

I laugh at all of you. ALL OF YOU! HAH!

FASERIP FOREVER!!! <---  high-speed, low-drag, twelve-cylinder, heat-seeking, multi-threaded, high-octane, quad-barreled, nitrous-injected, organic, gluten-free, opinionated fact!

Quote from: tenbones;946658FASERIP FOREVER!!! <---  high-speed, low-drag, twelve-cylinder, heat-seeking, multi-threaded, high-octane, quad-barreled, nitrous-injected, organic, gluten-free, opinionated fact!

damn right

Quote from: tenbones;946658the funny thing about "people-issues" this thread is the best indicator of how to urinate all over all systems rendering them undesirable in various ways purely for the sake of people attacking people.

I laugh at all of you. ALL OF YOU! HAH!

FASERIP FOREVER!!! <---  high-speed, low-drag, twelve-cylinder, heat-seeking, multi-threaded, high-octane, quad-barreled, nitrous-injected, organic, gluten-free, opinionated fact!

Quote from: Tristram Evans;946664damn right

Yeah, I got a hard on from that.