Well, I have had S&S on the brain lately.  I stumbled across a neat fan effort to revive the 1985 TSR Conan RPG called ZeFRS.  The game is based on the old TSR master table system that is more famously used in Marvel Super Heroes.  This Conan RPG, which I had never even heard of before, turns out to be a fun little system for S&S action.  Check it out, I highly recommend it.

Anyway, I have been running some S&S games recently (just had a nice session on Sunday where the PCs started in a burning fort being overrun by Picts and ended in ancient ruins being pursued by a supernatural beast) and I remembered I had written an article for a small fanzine on the genre's gaming potential a few years back and thought I'd share it.  I'd love to get some feedback on what folks think and if they have any other ideas about how to run good S&S games.  The article is pretty dated, so forgive any dead links or no mention of more recent games...  


Brief Description
The distinct sub-genre of fantasy literature that is known as Sword & Sorcery can be traced to the works of Robert E. Howard, and particularly his stories featuring the barbarian hero, Conan of Cimmeria. Published in many editions during the 1960s and 1970s, the Conan stories would play an important part, along with J.R.R. Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings, in the amazing explosion of fantasy literature during those years.  The popularity of the fantasy genre would later spawn the first role-playing game, Dungeons & Dragons.  Over the years Sword & Sorcery fiction has sometimes been described as “low” or “dark” fantasy, as compared to the “heroic” or “high” fantasy of J.R.R. Tolkien, often unfavorably.  This is unfair.  Many of the later imitators of the classic Sword & Sorcery, the very unfortunate Gor series by John Norman in particular, left the impression that Sword & Sorcery was juvenile fantasy about pin-headed barbarians with swords and scantily clad women playing the role of helpless victim.  The best Sword & Sorcery fiction, however, is something quite different.  It is distinct from the fantasy of Tolkien and his imitators, and explores the human experience from a different, darker point of view.

Basic Expectations
   The majority of classic Sword & Sorcery fiction was in short story format, so they emphasized quick action.  In fact, the stories often started in the middle of the action already in progress (in media res).  The settings of the typical Sword & Sorcery stories are often grim places where life is cheap and questions of good and evil are purely academic.  Unlike heroic fantasy, whose action often revolves around protecting society from evil forces that would destroy it, in Sword & Sorcery society and civilization is portrayed as being at best flawed, and at worst is often the enemy that the protagonists must struggle against.  The typical characteristics of a Sword & Sorcery adventure are:

• It is action-oriented
• The action is on a very personal scale, not an epic scale
• The story usually revolves around only 1 or 2 main characters
• The hero may be amoral, or may have a moral code different than society
• The stories revolve around survival and personal goals, not great quests to save the world or to uphold society and the social order.  In fact, the stories often revolve around anti-social activities, like crime.
• Magic is very powerful but limited to a few (usually very evil) sorcerers and is rare (few or no magic weapons, etc.)
• Exotic locations (ruined cities, distant lands, etc.) and supernatural events

Character Archetypes
The protagonists of the Sword & Sorcery genre are often quite a bit darker than those of heroic fantasy works like Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings.  They tend to be outsiders or social outcasts, rejected or looked down upon by the powers of the society they find themselves in.  Even Conan, who would become king of Hyboria’s greatest nation would still be seen as a barbarian usurper and resented by many of his noble subjects, and during his career was a petty thief, bandit chief and pirate.  Additionally, Sword & Sorcery protagonists are often more interested in pragmatic concerns of survival rather than questions of good or evil.  In fact, many of the most famous Sword & Sorcery characters, like Elric and Kane, are really anti-heroes, dealing with corrupting supernatural forces and suffering the tragic consequences of their lust for power.  Note that there are few magic-using protagonists in Sword & Sorcery, and those that do dabble in arcane things often pay a large price for the power that they acquire through supernatural dealings.  Some typical examples of Sword & Sorcery protagonists include:

• Outsider – This is the classic genre character of a barbarian in “civilized” lands, who often holds a code of behavior that is more admirable than the civilized people around them.  The greatest example of this type of character is, course, Conan, but also includes Fritz Leiber’s Fafhrd, and Lin Carter’s Throngor.
• Criminal – Another stock character type of Sword & Sorcery, the criminal is a representation of the ultimately personal, some would say selfish, nature of the genre’s typical protagonists.  The Grey Mouser of Fritz Leiber’s Lankhmar stories is an excellent example, although many other famous characters, like Conan, also were criminals at times in their careers.
• Doomed Champion – Characters like Moorcock’s Elric, Wagner’s Kane, and Moore’s Jirel are representative of another common archetype in Sword & Sorcery fiction, which is the powerful figure doomed by the power that they wield.  Usually the great power that these characters possess comes from tainted supernatural sources, such as demonic soul-sucking swords (Elric), or pacts with demons.  Ultimately, this power corrupts the characters themselves and leads to tragedy for them and those around them.

The Bad Guys
The difference between the protagonist and antagonist in a Sword & Sorcery story can sometimes be a fine distinction, particularly in the darker examples of the genre.  In general, though, the forces that are arrayed against the protagonist are intent of enforcing their malicious wills upon all around them, while the protagonist is at worst just intent on satisfying personal interests.   Some of the typical antagonists in a Sword & Sorcery adventure might include:

• Wizards – Evil wizards are a stock villain in Sword & Sorcery.  Examples include the Stygian sorcerers Thoth-amon and Natohk or the Kothian wizard Tsotha-lanti from the Conan stories.  These powerful men have been corrupted by the supernatural forces that are the source of their arcane powers and are thoroughly evil.  They are (usually) also still human, and are very vulnerable to a good sword blow.  Their magic is often very powerful, but limited by the complex rituals required to use it.
• Supernatural Foes – Another common antagonist in the Sword & Sorcery story is a supernatural foe.  Protagonists will often encounter unexplainable horrors and will have to combat them by any means.  From spirits to remnants of ancient evils, the world is filled with dark, uncaring forces beyond humanity’s understanding.
• Society – Often, the enemy that Sword & Sorcery protagonists took on was society itself.  One of the main themes of the genre was that society and civilization was often not worthy of preservation, especially when it is unjust.  Many of the stories of the genre revolve around the protagonist’s attempts to satisfy their personal goals, often at the expense of society in general, or a powerful social group or organization.
   
Adventures
Although the Sword & Sorcery stories had a big influence on the development of fantasy literature in general, and the fantasy role-playing games that developed from it, there are some challenges to running a “pure” Sword & Sorcery game.  One of the biggest challenges is the fact that fantasy RPGs like Dungeons & Dragons are typically played in groups structured along the heroic fantasy model of a large group of people, usually with a shared goal like a quest, rather than the individual protagonist or small group that are seen in Sword & Sorcery. The social nature of gaming groups means that it is often hard to keep the number of players down to keep the Sword & Sorcery feel without hurting some feelings.  One solution is to focus the action on a few “core” characters, while allowing other players to occasionally play as “guest stars”.  Another solution is to make the characters part of a single group, a mercenary unit or thieves’ guild for example, and still use the overall feel of the Sword & Sorcery genre by focusing on individual motivations and survival goals rather than epic quests.

The Sword & Sorcery story is also very different in tone than the typical fantasy role-playing game.  For example, the characters will likely not be in the mold of the average heroic fantasy hero; the noble knight or powerful magician.  In fact, they will likely be outsiders and social outcasts.  They adventures that they have will also not be similar to the heroic fantasy adventures of world-saving quests that we often see, but are grim and often selfish.  The adventures may end with no resolution or even in tragedy.  Finally, the role of magic in the game will likely be very different than many players are used to.  Magic is very dangerous and corrupting, and is usually reserved for non-player characters, like the evil wizard that has to be killed.  Additionally, magic artifacts will be rare and usually quite dangerous for the same reason, and there usually is a terrible price for the power that they provide a character.  Magic weapons, for example, which are a staple of the average fantasy role-playing game, are exceedingly rare in Sword & Sorcery, and exceedingly dangerous to use.  The best example of this is Elric’s demonic sword, Stormbringer, which on one hand gives him immense power, but on the other hand saps his life and makes him dependent on sorcery to live.

Famous Examples
   
From Books and Comics:

Robert E. Howard – Howard was an amazingly talented storyteller and is, without a doubt, the father of the Sword & Sorcery genre.  His most famous character was Conan, a barbarian who rose from being a thief to be a king, having fantastic adventures along the way.  Howard wrote about 20 short stories (mostly printed in Weird Tales magazine in the 1930s) and one novel featuring Conan, and there were several unfinished or fragmentary stories that were later completed by other writers.  After Howard’s death at the age of 30 his literary estate eventually passed to the control of L. Sprague De Camp, who heavily edited some Conan stories, completed many of the fragmentary stories, and even rewrote other of Howard’s non-Conan stories to feature the barbarian hero. Unfortunately, the Conan property was not well managed and as a result, many poor pastiches were written which reduced Howard’s elemental and complex character into a clichéd muscle-bound simpleton with a big sword.  The good news is that recently the original, unedited versions of Howard’s stories are again available in print.  The first book of the collection, titled The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, is now available.  If you are serious about either running or playing in a Sword & Sorcery game, I can’t recommend the book highly enough.  It is, quite simply, some of the best fantasy written.  Additionally, Dark Horse Comics has recently begun publishing an excellent Conan series in which most of the stories are taken directly from Howard’s original work.

Fritz Leiber – Leiber is actually the first author to coin the phrase “Sword & Sorcery” to describe this sub-genre of fantasy, and his stories chronicling the adventures of the odd pairing of a large barbarian and a small thief, named Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, in the city of Lankhmar are among the best examples of Sword & Sorcery to be found.

Other Examples From Books and Comics:

Michael Moorcock’s “Elric” Series, Karl Edward Wagner’s “Kane” series, Clark Ashton Smith, C.L. Moore’s “Jirel” series

From Movies, Radio and TV: “Conan the Barbarian”, “13th Warrior”, “The Beastmaster”

Games To Play

Conan D20 – Probably one of the easiest adaptations for Sword & Sorcery gaming, particularly if you already like the D20 system.  Even if you don’t plan on using D20, the game and its supplements are packed with very good information about Hyboria, the pre-historical world of Conan.   In particular, the main rulebook has an excellent section on creating adventures in the Sword & Sorcery style.  Also check out the supplement “The Road of Kings”, which is a gazetteer of the nations of Hyboria, and is almost entirely free of D20 system-specific detail for those who won’t be using the D20 rules.  You can check out the game on the web at http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/.

Sorcery and Sword – A supplement for Ron Edwards’ Sorcerer RPG.  The strength of this book is that it is an outstanding distillation of the genre for gaming purposes.  Even if you don’t plan to use Sorcerer for your Sword & Sorcery campaign, I would highly recommend that you buy and read this book.  It is an invaluable tool for planning such a campaign.

GURPS Conan – If you can find it on Ebay or on a dusty shelf of your local game store, this is definitely worth grabbing if you want to run a game set in Howard’s Hyboria.  The book provides a lot of detail on the many lands of Hyboria and provides adventure seeds for each, as well.  The only problem with the book is that it includes a lot of source material written by other authors (the infamous pastiches), some of which is of very dubious quality.

AD&D 2nd Ed. “Lankhmar” Series – TSR’s licensed version of AD&D set in Fritz Leiber’s Lankhmar.  The box set has some useful bits, like the maps of the city and an interesting concept of using “geomorphs”, which are generic maps of a small section of the city, which the GM and players can fill in with detail.  Another useful tool is the “Wonders of Lankhmar” supplement, which is a series of short adventure ideas.  Many of these can be easily ported to any Sword & Sorcery campaign, but some are less useful and more of the generic heroic fantasy variety.  If you plan to run a Lankhmar campaign, I would recommend tracking down them down.

Dragon Lords of Melnibone D20 – A D20 version of Chaosium’s Elric! RPG.  You may also want to check out Elric! or the earlier Chaosium game Stormbringer for additional setting information or if you are looking for an alternative to using the D20 system.

Barbarians of Lemuria – A simple, but interesting RPG is based on the Sword & Sorcery books of Lin Carter.  Although I personally don’t think that Carter’s works are the best examples of the genre, this game has some very good points and could easily be used for any Sword & Sorcery setting.  Even better, it is entirely free!  It can be found on the web at http://www.geocities.com/barbariansoflemuria/.

Internet Resources

The Robert E. Howard United Press Association – This is a treasure trove of information about, and scholarly analysis of, Howard and his writings.

Bill King’s Sword & Sorcery Toolkit for D20 – A good resource for Sword & Sorcery gamers who plan to use D20, and an interesting read regardless.

http://www.towson.edu/~flynn/swordsor.html – An interesting short summary of the literary history of the Sword & Sorcery genre.

Michael Moorcock’s Official Website – This is a good source of information about the Elric series of books.

The Barbarian Keep – This is a good collection of information about Robert E. Howard’s most famous creation, Conan, in his various incarnations in print and film.

The Hyborian Age of Conan the Barbarian – A very useful collection of information about Hyboria, the setting created by Robert E. Howard.  Includes a gazetteer, an atlas and other information.

The Fritz Leiber Home Page – An overview of the writings of Fritz Leiber, and his Lankhmar stories in particular.

The Scrolls of Lankhmar – An amazing collection of information about Fritz Leiber’s world of Lankhmar.

This was a good and insightful read, The Good Assyrian, and I agree with most of it. Unfortunately, I have said most of what I wanted to say about the sword&sorcery genre and its relevance to old D&D, so I probably won't write lengthy posts here. I do recommend this thread, though: Swords and Sensibility - the evolution of the tone of D&D. It is a fascinating discussion on how D&D's originally strong S&S element gradually fell by the wayside.

Now, a few specific points:

1) Sword&Sorcery and morality: one of the fundamental tenets of high fantasy is the victory of morality over evil. Protagonists emerge victorious because they are good people, willing to stand up for their ideals, and they are morally superior to their opponents. In sword&sorcery, this is not the case. Protagonists triumph by raw ability or cunning, and morals have little to do with it. On the other hand, there is also a strong subtheme of humanity versus inhumanity; heroes have deep character flaws, but these flaws are human - violence, lust, avarice and so on. Meanwhile, there are villains who have rejected their human nature and become monsters, like Hyboria's sorcerers or the treacherous Prince Yrkoon. Even so, Conan and Elric don't win because they are better people, but because they are more shrewd, better swordsmen, or because in their inhumanity, their opponents make basic errors. Remember that the early S&S writers were atheists, or at least their worlds didn't have a benevolent God to right wrongs.

Gaming application: although characters in fiction invariably triumph over all odds, this doesn't work so well in a tabletop RPG. If too much attention is paid to genre concerns, your campaign may be more faithful to the original stories in form, but, ironically it will not feel that way. The trick of presenting an uncaring world is to GM it impartially and mercilessly, without sentiment for the survival or well-being of the player characters. Modern game theory embraces the idea of empowerment, the concept that PCs should be special and merit special consideration. Don't do this. If they are to be special, it should be through their own actions against the hostile millieu. If you go through a folder of character sheets in the process, that will work for the campaign, not against it.

2) Sword&Sorcery and deities: continuing the theme of an uncaring world, if there were gods in S&S settings, they were noticably unhelpful. Either they were empty idols worshipped by delusional devotees, alien monsters who preyed on the sacrifices they were supplied with, or just not involved in the day-to-day doings of the religion. The Lords of Chaos and Law in Moorcock's novels are a rare exception – also, they are parts of a coherent cosmology, while in Howard, Leiber, etc., we find no traces of such.

Gaming application: this is a problematic area because the idea of the cleric class is thoroughly intertwined with the idea of fantasy roleplaying, even though its traditional role of healer/supporter is markedly at odds with the fiction. I know I have struggled with the issue, and thought about nixing clerics completely on multiple occasioons. Eventually, I worked out a compromise: my pantheon is kind of a "humanised Cthulhu mythos" of petty and thoroughly unappealing, but strongly interventionist "living gods" - with physical presence and a materialistic outlook. Elements inspired by Runequest and Empire of the Petal Throne are boons and divination granted in exchange for sacrifices, religious functions/powers for non-clerics, entire clergies composed of  non-clerical members, etc. Others may think of different solutions.

3) The Sword&Sorcery you do not know: it is a good thing you mentioned Jirel, because it brings up a good point about S&S lit: most of it is damn obscure today. There has been a Howard renaissance as of late, and the more dedicated fantasy fans are at least passingly familiar with Vance and Leiber, but there is a lot of good material outside these figures. Abraham Merritt's lost world novels, Clark Ashton Smith's weird fiction, and attendant pulp genres - planetary romance and historical pulp - are all good possibilities for getting more reading material and inspiration. My recent discovery of Talbot Mundy and Harold Lamb, who wrote historical pulp, was a revelation almost on par with finding Conan for the first time, while Leigh Brackett's The Book of Skaith immediately became my favourite fantasy novel when I read it last year (actually, Leigh's The Sword of Rhiannon was the second fantasy novel I read - right after Tolkien's LotR). For those who are interested, here is a thread where I reviewed The Book of Skaith and Mundy's Tros of Samothrace. I am just reading Lamb's complete Cossack tales, and it is very good so far.

Gaming application: totally obvious - mine these books for inspiration. Especially good since most of your players will not know the basic material, so it will be more of a surprise.

Well, this is interesting. Because the Sword & Sorcery is very, very alive in D&D.
Why do I say that?
Because the most popular German game really is as romantic as some fear D&D to have become.
In Germany, many think of D&D as too macho and too dark, to much power & glory, not enough good/evil and morally acceptable characters.

And it´s sort of true: You might lament the influx of Tolkien tropes that watered down your S&S. But the S&S genes are right there in the rules, they don´t go away that easily.
Imagine a game that is not watered down S&S, but totally built upon fairy-tale romanticists wishful thinking.

In D&D, you still kill Demons and Driders in gory ways, and become a badass in the process or die. In DSA, you enforce minimum wage policy for the greedy baker´s emplyoees [no kidding!].

Quote from: SettembriniIn Germany, many think of D&D as too macho and too dark, to much power & glory, not enough good/evil and morally acceptable characters.

Not to distract from your pet peeve, but D&D has been _very_ strong on the good and evil dichotomy for a long time, departing from its original S&S roots. This became quite dominant once the Forgotten Realms established themselves as the biggest setting -- and Dragonlance takes it to 11.

(And being to strong on the morality aspects has actually been an argument against D&D by DSA players, but better not get there. Obviously people play differently down here in Bavaria. Crossing the Danube never was a good idea )

Settembrini, Sosthenes: although it is not the politest thing to refer people to previous discussions, the cited Dragonsfoot thread was just about this - how D&D fandom' expectations, successful novel lines and designers abandoned the S&S model in favour of good versus evil, quest fantasy and watered down "Tolkienesque" blah. Today, some of the foundations are still there, but the building on top of them looks more similar to a castle in Disneyland than an old fortress meant for business.

I concede that when compared to other games, it may be a better fit. It certainly is the case with Hungary's dominant FRPG - which is all about Renaissance intrigue and skulduggery, not straightforward action.

I actually read the thread.
But S&S is the foundation for the castle, as you put it so nicely. I just wanted to point out, that of all places in contemporary RPG products, D&D has the least problems with a lack of S&S.
I daresay, 3.x took back the rules from the fat-fantasy crowd.
 
There was no Wilderlands or Tome of Horrors for AD&D 2nd Ed.
 
And even the Magazine called "Dungeon" produced stuff with evil Sorcerers, Slavery, Cities of Selfishness and Giant Toads for 3.x.
The D&D podcast reflected a lot upon the S&S literary sources like Leiber.
I think it doesn´t get any more mainstream than that.
 
Now, I really am thankful and impressed by your realization, that the longing for S&S, as well as the re-imagination of stuff like the Wilderlands is counter-reformatory in concept: unthinkable without the preceding movement and changed by it thoroughly. Nowadays the S&S crowd is way more intolerant and radical in thinking than the gonzo-creators of old were.
The craving to do D&D "as it really was meant to be", is eating up even Gygaxian Elements like Homlett, as the linked thread nicely shows. I can really live with the jumbled, organically grown mashup of Tolkien pastiche on the S&S foundation D&D products are nowadays. It´s what it is, it emerged. It´s natural, opposed to the ideas of purity.
The Disneyland castle seems to be an image from AD&D 2nd Ed. days. And that castle has been stormed and razed so many times by old-school purists and reactive tactical players of our days, it´s now merely a legend. It could even provoke an ideological-romanticist backlash, and that won´t be pretty, I fear. It would be divisive. The last thing we want?
So, I think the structure of modules and campaigns is of much bigger concern to our subculture than whether the Kingdom is basically a fun place to be or corrupted and built upon slavery. If everything is dark and moody, it´s just as boring, repetetive and derivative as the Forgotten Realms are. And stereotypical derivitism is the last thing we want, isn´t it?
 
 
@Sosthenes: At least Conan stories are very one dimensional in their morals. Conan is right, all others are wrong. Isn´t that the real problem for the romanticist crowd? Saying contemporary D&D is too unidimensional in it´s moral outlook is more a critique of the allegedly amoral nature of implicit D&D gameplay?

Damn you, Melan for pointing me to such a fascinating thread when I have to leave for work in a few minutes!  

I'll try to digest your points today and get back to this thread this evening.  I think that the crux of the dilemma is how to best emulate some of the key characteristics of the original S&S fiction under the restrictions imposed by the structure of roleplaying games, and the preferences of the players.


TGA

Quote from: Settembrini@Sosthenes: At least Conan stories are very one dimensional in their morals. Conan is right, all others are wrong. Isn´t that the real problem for the romanticist crowd? Saying contemporary D&D is too unidimensional in it´s moral outlook is more a critique of the allegedly amoral nature of implicit D&D gameplay?

I wouldn't say so. The problem here is manifold, as we have two groups of concerned players and two (alleged) problems with D&D.

Let's start with the latter issue. The "amoral gameplay" is obviously centered on the most simplistic form of dungeon-bashing, i.e. kill-and-loot games. This doesn't just concern critics, this is a big problem for lots of D&D players, too. Which is the main reason why most adventures and campaigns don't actually work like that, at least in my experience. Most have an ulterior motive, where the loot aspect is basically a game-within-the-game, just like optimizing your character with just the right item and class combinations is. Not many people I know play games just for that reason. It's just that old-school D&D seems to leave the surrounding moral arguments up to the Dungeon Master and just provides the tools. So this argument mostly comes down to hand-holding, DSA provides more non-mechanical structure than D&D does. Which is one of the reasons this might be worse in Germany, we kinda like being told what to think

The simplistic good/evil nature D&D offers is a different point of view, not really related to criticism of dungeon gaming. It actually comes more in play in other scenarios that would be more suitable to the players complaining about this particular rule. The biggest issue is the alignment system, allegedly leading to cliched, adversarial play. IMHO a more recent development, as D&D  definitely started less morally distinct. Chaos vs. Law wasn't done very well compared to its Moorcockian origin, but it never dominated the game as much as LG vs. CE does since then. So in this issue, D&D has drifted from Sword & Sorcery, and the criticism you encountered is obviously aimed another way.

And finally, all the issues about morality are not as simple as one might think. The romantics _are_ an issue, but don't forget the relativists, who also complain about moral problems. Both are prone to criticise D&D.

(And both are right in a way. I'm not all too happy with the current implementation, but then I like shades of gray a lot)

EDIT: And sorry if this repeats anything from the Dragonsfoot thread. A certain Bavarian automobile company seems to have a very strict web filter

Quote from: SettembriniNow, I really am thankful and impressed by your realization, that the longing for S&S, as well as the re-imagination of stuff like the Wilderlands is counter-reformatory in concept: unthinkable without the preceding movement and changed by it thoroughly.

I would say that preceding gave us old-timers the opportunity to get our staff (and point of view) out there in the form of the Wilderlands. From working with the other folks, I don't think our playing style had radically altered because of a reemergence of Sword & Sorcery we been playing like that for a long time. With the advent of d20 and the Internet this allowed a product like the Wilderlands to be created.

Quote from: SettembriniSo, I think the structure of modules and campaigns is of much bigger concern to our subculture than whether the Kingdom is basically a fun place to be or corrupted and built upon slavery. If everything is dark and moody, it´s just as boring, repetetive and derivative as the Forgotten Realms are. And stereotypical derivitism is the last thing we want, isn´t it?

I basically agreed. Pushed to an extreme any aspect of the fantasy genre can exhibit the same problems as any other aspect. The reason I built my game the way I did is to generate the most amount of adventuring possibilities/choices given the limitations of running and playing the game.  

What the exact shape of the game will take will ultimately depend on my players. It could be a sword and sorcery hackfest, intrigue and mystery, domain building, ethically challenged merchants (Traveller fans know what this is), all these are some of the choices the dozen or so PC Groups have done in my game.

By basing my world on a few fantastic premises (magic, monsters, gods, etc) extrapolating a semi-realistic world, and doing the prep so playes can roam; I feel is the best way of maxing the choices of adventuring.

If you do this while writing up a campaign world then I think you will find it feeling more swords and sorcery than not.

Don't know if this is relevant, but...

Over on ENWorld, in one of the Gygax Q&A threads, someone asks EGG about movies that would represent the games he GM'd. Now, that may seem off-topic, but if you read his response, and the subsequent discussion (and I apologize as the thread meanders all over the place) it does seem to provide some insight into EGG's view of S&S and how it related to the games he GM'd.  Which may have some bearing on how the design of D&D from back in the day represents, or doesn't, S&S.

My apologies if this is, in the end, not relevant.

Waaah, Gary doesn't like Conan! Now I'll have to burn my RC!

Quote from: SosthenesWaaah, Gary doesn't like Conan! Now I'll have to burn my RC!

I think he likes Conan as S&S, just not the movies. But I could be mistaken; I read that thread late last night worrying about more flooding...

The first Conan film was absolutely harshed by many hobby stalwarts when it came out, primarily for not adhering more closely to the written material.  Reviews in both Dragon and Pegasus panned the film, IIRC.  Little did they know how much lower Hollywood could sink!

Personally, Conan the Barbarian remains my alltime favorite film.  But when it came out I was an impressionable young lad, so I can understand the contemporary ubernerds having issues with the flick.

Quote from: James J SkachI think he likes Conan as S&S, just not the movies. But I could be mistaken; I read that thread late last night worrying about more flooding...

That's the way I understood it, too. Should have written it that way. But still, I read Howard's tales before and liked the film. On the other hand, I'm one of those who thinks stuff you know from the book is a bonus, not something that has to be expected. Especially with a story like Conan where the actual plot isn't _that_ important.

Neverwind Arnie, the big selling point of conan for me was the production. Great settings, absolutely uber-fantastic music. James Earl Jones with a mullet.

Quote from: jrientsThe first Conan film was absolutely harshed by many hobby stalwarts when it came out, primarily for not adhering more closely to the written material.  Reviews in both Dragon and Pegasus panned the film, IIRC.  Little did they know how much lower Hollywood could sink!

Personally, Conan the Barbarian remains my alltime favorite film.  But when it came out I was an impressionable young lad, so I can understand the contemporary ubernerds having issues with the flick.

I couldn't agree more. I think Conan the Barbarian was a great Howardian movie, even if it wasn't a faithful reproduction of a particular story.