Quote from: Cole;463719The way I see it playing "Swords & Sorcery" in practice meas "setting the campaign in the kind of world that Swords & Sorcery tends to depict." So if you play a campaign set in Nehwon you are going to tend to have more of a Swords & Sorcery game than if you play one set in Krynn.

Thank you for saying so succinctly the message I was trying to convey!

Quote from: Cole;463719But I do think worlds can contain "themes" in a sense and remain perfectly playable RPGs. If every NPC in a position of political power is a motherfucker then "authority always corrupts" is a theme. If the rightful heir to a throne always has what it takes to rule then "the divine right of kings" is a theme. Even if you have "most" and "usually" instead of "every" and "always" you still have a theme.

I agree with this.  I also would say that the idea of "theme" can be abused and become repetitive and boring if it is used as cudgel by the GM to make some point.  After all it is a game and should be fun.  I think that is where the player buy in is so important.  I happened to have players who grooved on the darker themes of S&S like I did, so that to them was part of the fun.  We shared similar expectations of what the game was going to likely be like.  The fact that there only 3 players helped with that, and also coincidentally helped with the more personal S&S feel to the game.

I have other friends who almost certainly not have enjoyed these elements as much, so they didn't play.  I would play something else with them that we could all agree was to our shared tastes.  I also don't think that "Sword & Sorcery all the time" is what I am shooting for either, even though it is clearly my preferred mode for fantasy roleplaying.  I am flexible enough to enjoy other kinds of games, as well.

Quote from: Cole;463719It can also work like this - If you think S&S is characterized by "no matter how tough you are death still comes cheap" you can use rules where the best fighter is 3 times as good as the average fighter and being outnumbered causes mad penalties while if you think it is characterized by "skill at arms is paramount" you can use rules where the best fighter is 20 times as good as the average one and being outnumbered by weaker foes is less dangerous than meeting one foe above your skill. Or if you think it is characterized by "if you come at the king you best not miss" you could give a huge edge to the master but use an over the top critical chart because you never know.

I would say that system doesn't matter nearly as much as content.  I happily used OD&D because it was comfortable and stripped down for fast resolution.  It fit our needs. Now, that doesn't mean that I think that all system are created equally.  I think some mechanics set a tone that are more appropriate for some feels than others.  In your example, you get a much different relationship with combat with OD&D and, say GURPS.  I have used both extensively in my gaming, and for different reasons and for different effects.

Quote from: Cole;463719That's fine. For what it's worth I basically agree with the idea from the other thread that it's about contents as opposed to about form or structure. But I do think you veer wildly into paranoia about "lit-emu" when most players are basically talking about content already.
(In the interest of transparency, I mostly run D&D. I also like Runequest and have had good success with the S&S mode with both.)

I think that we are on the same page on this.  I am interested in game content and think that too much talk about system emulation all too often tends to dissolve into unproductive territory.

-TGA

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;463524So Pundit, from what I have read it doesn't seem that your current campaign is directly inspired by Sword and Sorcery fiction, but how does ol' Elminster fit in to your game, if at all?

One of the coolest parts in my opinion of the discussion of toning down the high fantasy elements of the Realms was the cool stuff you can do with the Big El if he doesn't have to fit the Greenwood mold of Gandalf clone.


-TGA

Elminster hasn't appeared in the campaign as of yet.  He has been mentioned, once; one of the characters (a mage) has heard rumours that Elminster might be the current Archmage, the one magic-user chosen of Mystra to be her champion in the world, but this is only rumoured as the identity of the Archmage is kept secret.  Elminster is not particularly famous, being known only to be a wizard of some ability that lives somewhere in the dalelands.

OOC, I'm not going to reveal the truth in this post because some of my players could be reading, but basically Elminster could be anything from a 1st-20th level magic user (or maybe not, maybe he's a mountebank, or just a sage with no spell abilities at all), and he may or may not be the Archmage; his name might in fact be a deliberate red herring thrown out there to spread misinformation.

In fact, I don't particularly expect Elminster to be very important in any particular way in my campaign, at least not for a very long time; the PCs have no particular connection to him, and they are not in the dales nor seem to have any plans to be anytime soon.  In the city they're in, the most powerful magic-user known to live there is a 13th level mage that is not particularly famous for anything (outside of being a half-demon and the head of Tantras' very tiny mages' college).

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Quote from: RPGPundit;463921Elminster hasn't appeared in the campaign as of yet.  He has been mentioned, once; one of the characters (a mage) has heard rumours that Elminster might be the current Archmage, the one magic-user chosen of Mystra to be her champion in the world, but this is only rumoured as the identity of the Archmage is kept secret.  Elminster is not particularly famous, being known only to be a wizard of some ability that lives somewhere in the dalelands.

OOC, I'm not going to reveal the truth in this post because some of my players could be reading, but basically Elminster could be anything from a 1st-20th level magic user (or maybe not, maybe he's a mountebank, or just a sage with no spell abilities at all), and he may or may not be the Archmage; his name might in fact be a deliberate red herring thrown out there to spread misinformation.

In fact, I don't particularly expect Elminster to be very important in any particular way in my campaign, at least not for a very long time; the PCs have no particular connection to him, and they are not in the dales nor seem to have any plans to be anytime soon.  In the city they're in, the most powerful magic-user known to live there is a 13th level mage that is not particularly famous for anything (outside of being a half-demon and the head of Tantras' very tiny mages' college).

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Thanks for the info on your take on Elminister.  Sounds like a fun game!


-TGA

Here is how I personally defined swords & sorcery for my own Auran Empire campaign setting.

Aesthetic: Adventurers seek fame, power, and loot. Nobles live in luxury while slaves toil in misery. Human cities teem with vice and villainy. Virgins are sacrificed to chthonic cults. The characters may be scavengers and vagabonds feasting off civilization's corpse, or they may choose to be heroes fighting to do what good they can, but they are never "chosen ones" called to quest. Good is not certain to win, and indeed the odds are stacked against it

Era: The era is historically akin to the age of Late Antiquity just before the Roman Empire slipped into the Dark Ages. Opulent long-standing empires are shattering in a tidal wave of violence. Exotic realms inspired by Indo-Persian, Arabic, and African cultures offer a wide palate of adventure. It is not the Middle Ages and the tropes of the Middle Ages (knights in shining armor, chivalric orders, and so on) are not strongly present.

Pagan Religion: The gods did not create the world, nor are they omnipotent or omniscient; and they fight each other to control the world, not to redeem it.  As such, religion is a powerful force, but does not dominate society the way it did in the Middle Ages.

Alignment: The setting assumes a perpetual struggle between Law and Chaos, but not in a sense of "good" and "evil". Law represents humanity and its works; Chaos represents inhumanity and its alien works. To have an alignment is to have chosen a side in this perpetual struggle. Most people, choosing no side, are Neutral, although most Neutral humans enjoy the protection of Law. (To paraphrase George Orwell, Neutral humans sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because Lawful heroes stand ready to do violence on their behalf.)  Human vices, such as greed, lust, and vanity, are widespread and common; the true enemies are characterized by inhuman vices, insanity, wanton destruction, cannibalism, necrophilia, and so on. Evil is all-too-human, but chaotic is something both less and more than human.

Heroic Morality, Not Modern Morality: "With great valor comes great reward." Like Achilles and Beowulf, and unlike Spider-Man, heroes seek out fame and fortune. A beautiful wife, chests of gold, magnificent weapons, and grants of land are considered by all to be the rightful rewards for great deeds of valor. Wealth is a positive value, a symbolic measure of a man's worth.

There Is No Destiny: Fate is adrift, and the outcomes of the world depend on the will of men and the whims of chance. Gods and heroes can seek to influence the outcome but there is no assurance of a happy ending. In game terms, PCs can and do die.

Weird Science: Ancient civilizations from long-forgotten eras had advanced in scientific knowledge beyond what is known to the setting. Ray-guns, death rays, floating packs, grenades, and laser-swords can be found in rare and out of the way places.

Monsters were Mostly Created: While some creatures, such as dragons and unicorns, are natural to the world, most monsters, including giant vermin, undead, all aberrations, and all evil and monstrous humanoids, were created, by mad wizards and evil priests, as slaves, pets, and soldiers. As such they are innately unnatural and should be destroyed. PCs need have no moral qualms about killing orcs, undead, and so on.

Thanks for the bump, this was a good read.

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464285Thanks for the info on your take on Elminister.  Sounds like a fun game!


-TGA

Thank you! And for the record, he never did show up in the campaign.  Not a single "important" Realms NPC did.  You don't need them.

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