Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 05:14:37 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 05:02:08 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 04:55:05 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 04:48:14 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 04:43:56 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 13, 2022, 02:15:12 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 12, 2022, 06:37:33 PM
Newer series have continued ued to get loose with the transporter. Strange New Worlds allows for gearing up mid teleport (into new outfits and such) along with beaming medicine directly into people from great distances.

Exactly and its only gotten worse over time because the writers either do not care, or never bothered, to learn how anything in the setting is supposed to work. Its like how they completely fucked up time travel, warp speeds, holodecks, robots, and on down the list. Is there anything left they have not fucked up yet?

Anything NuTrek isn't Star Trek and that's a hill I'm ready to die on.

Lower Decks is good Trek.

IF sincere this here proves you have a shitty taste and should be ashamed of yourself.

Have you watched it?

Penis joke, fart joke, men are useles, slay kween... Yes, saw a chapter or two. It is shit, maggot infested shit.

Season two gets somewhat more serious, much like Orville, and similarly is better for it. Not saying you'll necessarily like it, but it might be worth watching a bit more before giving up on it entirely.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 04:43:56 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 13, 2022, 02:15:12 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 12, 2022, 06:37:33 PM
Newer series have continued ued to get loose with the transporter. Strange New Worlds allows for gearing up mid teleport (into new outfits and such) along with beaming medicine directly into people from great distances.

Exactly and its only gotten worse over time because the writers either do not care, or never bothered, to learn how anything in the setting is supposed to work. Its like how they completely fucked up time travel, warp speeds, holodecks, robots, and on down the list. Is there anything left they have not fucked up yet?

Anything NuTrek isn't Star Trek and that's a hill I'm ready to die on.

I haven't watched anything since Enterprise and haven't even watched all of Voyager, since I think Star Trek's time has passed and we need some new IPs with new stories, but why do you feel it isn't Star Trek at all?

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 05:21:57 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 05:14:37 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 05:02:08 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 04:55:05 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 04:48:14 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 04:43:56 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 13, 2022, 02:15:12 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 12, 2022, 06:37:33 PM
Newer series have continued ued to get loose with the transporter. Strange New Worlds allows for gearing up mid teleport (into new outfits and such) along with beaming medicine directly into people from great distances.

Exactly and its only gotten worse over time because the writers either do not care, or never bothered, to learn how anything in the setting is supposed to work. Its like how they completely fucked up time travel, warp speeds, holodecks, robots, and on down the list. Is there anything left they have not fucked up yet?

Anything NuTrek isn't Star Trek and that's a hill I'm ready to die on.

Lower Decks is good Trek.

IF sincere this here proves you have a shitty taste and should be ashamed of yourself.

Have you watched it?

Penis joke, fart joke, men are useles, slay kween... Yes, saw a chapter or two. It is shit, maggot infested shit.

Season two gets somewhat more serious, much like Orville, and similarly is better for it. Not saying you'll necessarily like it, but it might be worth watching a bit more before giving up on it entirely.

No thanks, not gonna waste anymore of my time on the slim possibility I don't hate it.

Quote from: migo on May 13, 2022, 05:27:44 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 04:43:56 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 13, 2022, 02:15:12 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 12, 2022, 06:37:33 PM
Newer series have continued ued to get loose with the transporter. Strange New Worlds allows for gearing up mid teleport (into new outfits and such) along with beaming medicine directly into people from great distances.

Exactly and its only gotten worse over time because the writers either do not care, or never bothered, to learn how anything in the setting is supposed to work. Its like how they completely fucked up time travel, warp speeds, holodecks, robots, and on down the list. Is there anything left they have not fucked up yet?

Anything NuTrek isn't Star Trek and that's a hill I'm ready to die on.

I haven't watched anything since Enterprise and haven't even watched all of Voyager, since I think Star Trek's time has passed and we need some new IPs with new stories, but why do you feel it isn't Star Trek at all?

Spok is an emotional wreck, Kirk is an idiot, running, pew, pew and no substance. That's just the movies.

The series... All officers are incompetent insubordinate idiots and the command is even worst. Screams, running, spok is an emotional wrek, Picard is a bumbling idiot, Wahmen can, men are useless, Klingon look like shit, I could go on.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 06:47:49 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 05:21:57 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 05:14:37 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 05:02:08 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 04:55:05 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 13, 2022, 04:48:14 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 04:43:56 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 13, 2022, 02:15:12 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 12, 2022, 06:37:33 PM
Newer series have continued ued to get loose with the transporter. Strange New Worlds allows for gearing up mid teleport (into new outfits and such) along with beaming medicine directly into people from great distances.

Exactly and its only gotten worse over time because the writers either do not care, or never bothered, to learn how anything in the setting is supposed to work. Its like how they completely fucked up time travel, warp speeds, holodecks, robots, and on down the list. Is there anything left they have not fucked up yet?

Anything NuTrek isn't Star Trek and that's a hill I'm ready to die on.

Lower Decks is good Trek.

IF sincere this here proves you have a shitty taste and should be ashamed of yourself.

Have you watched it?

Penis joke, fart joke, men are useles, slay kween... Yes, saw a chapter or two. It is shit, maggot infested shit.

Season two gets somewhat more serious, much like Orville, and similarly is better for it. Not saying you'll necessarily like it, but it might be worth watching a bit more before giving up on it entirely.

No thanks, not gonna waste anymore of my time on the slim possibility I don't hate it.

Gotta say, Lower Decks is more Trek than the shit that Paramount is still shoveling out there. The best Trek on TV right now is The Orville, Lower Decks is still pretty good in comparison.

In a lot of ways, Paramount has become like WotC in how little care they have for their customer base.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 04:37:59 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 13, 2022, 01:45:55 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 12:34:40 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 13, 2022, 12:24:58 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 12, 2022, 11:16:37 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 12, 2022, 10:45:33 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 12, 2022, 10:27:42 PM

Quote from: Wisithir on May 12, 2022, 08:55:22 PM
You need on original master for the transporter pattern and the pattern is lost once the subject is reconstituted.

There's no good reason why the pattern would be lost if the pattern is just information, so it has to be something else that gets stored temporarily in the "pattern buffer" but I'm not sure what it would be other than handwavium.

The position, state, and bonds of every atom within a human body is just a crazy amount of information.  It wouldn't be too implausible to say that the transporter processes it in batches as it goes and doesn't ever retain the whole set of information.

LOL, you are A-Okay with FTL travel but balk at the ammount of information? On a show that has a handheld medical thingy that can diagnosticate ANYTHING on ANY species? A comunicator/universal translator built in the pin insignias of the crew? Rayguns that can act both as tasers and as death/disintegrator rays? With holodecks that not only project but the projections are solid, have smell, taste, etc?

You've hit on a pet peeve of mine.  The idea that if one accepts some unrealistic thing in fiction, then one must accept all unrealistic things.  This quickly leads off into flying foo-foo land where reality is everything in the players imagination.  I didn't say that it should be impossible to store all of that info in a Trek universe, just that if one wanted a plausible reason for a limitation, then data quantity wouldn't be a bad one.  Most of the tech you mentioned isn't all that wild.  I can at least imagine how it might work.  Transporters, on the other hand, look like a technology about a thousand years down the line in development time from the rest.  I would just as rather take it out if it weren't such a ST trope.

WUT?

I'm talking about ST's canon, what does that have to do with players pulling stuff from their ass?

I do agree that Trnasporters NEED some hard set limits for an RPG. But to do so I have to break from canon and my players must be okay with me doing so.

Same for the tricorder, it needs carved on stone limits.

Either that or both technologies have to be jetizoned IMHO.

The comment was aimed more at your point of "if you can accept ftl how can you have data limitations?" than the specifics of Trek, so not entirely on-topic.  It's a faulty argument that leads to all kinds of bad things.  It's also heard in the context of D&D:  "If it's okay to have fanciful things like dragons why can't I have a robot/vampire necromancer?"

Except the thread is about a GM wanting to run ST and what he wants or doesn't in his game. In that vein my comments are also from the GM PoV.

But do keep on telling me how me pointing all of the super tech in the setting invalidates your point about data is the same as players wanting to justify anything because dragons.

Do you always get so testy when you just don't get it?  I'll try one more time, simple as I can.  Just because there is amazing tech in a setting doesn't mean that there should be no technological limitations.  The data limitation idea was just a reasonable example of that.

Quote from: Mishihari on May 13, 2022, 08:16:57 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 04:37:59 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 13, 2022, 01:45:55 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 12:34:40 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 13, 2022, 12:24:58 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 12, 2022, 11:16:37 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 12, 2022, 10:45:33 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 12, 2022, 10:27:42 PM

Quote from: Wisithir on May 12, 2022, 08:55:22 PM
You need on original master for the transporter pattern and the pattern is lost once the subject is reconstituted.

There's no good reason why the pattern would be lost if the pattern is just information, so it has to be something else that gets stored temporarily in the "pattern buffer" but I'm not sure what it would be other than handwavium.

The position, state, and bonds of every atom within a human body is just a crazy amount of information.  It wouldn't be too implausible to say that the transporter processes it in batches as it goes and doesn't ever retain the whole set of information.

LOL, you are A-Okay with FTL travel but balk at the ammount of information? On a show that has a handheld medical thingy that can diagnosticate ANYTHING on ANY species? A comunicator/universal translator built in the pin insignias of the crew? Rayguns that can act both as tasers and as death/disintegrator rays? With holodecks that not only project but the projections are solid, have smell, taste, etc?

You've hit on a pet peeve of mine.  The idea that if one accepts some unrealistic thing in fiction, then one must accept all unrealistic things.  This quickly leads off into flying foo-foo land where reality is everything in the players imagination.  I didn't say that it should be impossible to store all of that info in a Trek universe, just that if one wanted a plausible reason for a limitation, then data quantity wouldn't be a bad one.  Most of the tech you mentioned isn't all that wild.  I can at least imagine how it might work.  Transporters, on the other hand, look like a technology about a thousand years down the line in development time from the rest.  I would just as rather take it out if it weren't such a ST trope.

WUT?

I'm talking about ST's canon, what does that have to do with players pulling stuff from their ass?

I do agree that Trnasporters NEED some hard set limits for an RPG. But to do so I have to break from canon and my players must be okay with me doing so.

Same for the tricorder, it needs carved on stone limits.

Either that or both technologies have to be jetizoned IMHO.

The comment was aimed more at your point of "if you can accept ftl how can you have data limitations?" than the specifics of Trek, so not entirely on-topic.  It's a faulty argument that leads to all kinds of bad things.  It's also heard in the context of D&D:  "If it's okay to have fanciful things like dragons why can't I have a robot/vampire necromancer?"

Except the thread is about a GM wanting to run ST and what he wants or doesn't in his game. In that vein my comments are also from the GM PoV.

But do keep on telling me how me pointing all of the super tech in the setting invalidates your point about data is the same as players wanting to justify anything because dragons.

Do you always get so testy when you just don't get it?  I'll try one more time, simple as I can.  Just because there is amazing tech in a setting doesn't mean that there should be no technological limitations.  The data limitation idea was just a reasonable example of that.

Do you always backtrak while pretending you're not doing so?

What happened with "transporters exist = anything goes because dragons!"

I never said there should be no limitations, in fact if you cared to read you'd find out I DEMAND hard limits on both the transporters and the tricorder. But yours makes no sense IMHO and so I pointed that out.

Also good try with the "Why so angry bro?" but no cigar.

To throw some fuel on the fire about ST transporters...

There's an episode of ST:tNG where a transporter accident creates two Riker's. The "original" gets (unintentionally) marooned on a planet, and the "copy" becomes the character we've known for years at the point. Both characters believe they are the original.

So...this episode makes ST transporters, murder machines. And there is no soul (or at least, no unique soul).

Quote from: Novastar on May 13, 2022, 10:04:35 PM
To throw some fuel on the fire about ST transporters...

There's an episode of ST:tNG where a transporter accident creates two Riker's. The "original" gets (unintentionally) marooned on a planet, and the "copy" becomes the character we've known for years at the point. Both characters believe they are the original.

So...this episode makes ST transporters, murder machines. And there is no soul (or at least, no unique soul).

Creating copies is a logical conclusion from the buffer and it holding the date for decades. As for the soul thing how would they know? do they have any way to prove it exists or doesn't?

IIRC, the "holding data for decades" was a trick Scotty got to do ONCE, and even the Next Gen crew were like "Whoa! That worked!?!" (edit: It worked for Scotty; not the red shirt with him)

Let's also not forget a power fluctuation killed two crew members, in the Original Motion Picture (poor Spock's replacement...).

I don't know if we can prove there's a soul, in Star Trek (or real life).
edit: But it didn't make a mindless copy, or even a bland one. They both considered themselves to be the original.

Quote from: Novastar on May 13, 2022, 10:21:24 PM
IIRC, the "holding data for decades" was a trick Scotty got to do ONCE, and even the Next Gen crew were like "Whoa! That worked!?!" (edit: It worked for Scotty; not the red shirt with him)

Let's also not forget a power fluctuation killed two crew members, in the Original Motion Picture (poor Spock's replacement...).

I don't know if we can prove there's a soul, in Star Trek (or real life).
edit: But it didn't make a mindless copy, or even a bland one. They both considered themselves to be the original.

I'm not going into the IRL stuff.

But on ST so both strikers had the same personality, is consciousness = soul on ST? I don't remember they ever adressing that issue but then my memory isn't what it used to be so maybe they did.

But that's a very minor and secondary point.

Without a malfunction killing you, how does the copy thing prove the transporter kills you? IMHO at best it proves it can work as a replicator.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 06:51:59 PM

Quote from: migo on May 13, 2022, 05:27:44 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 04:43:56 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 13, 2022, 02:15:12 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 12, 2022, 06:37:33 PM
Newer series have continued ued to get loose with the transporter. Strange New Worlds allows for gearing up mid teleport (into new outfits and such) along with beaming medicine directly into people from great distances.

Exactly and its only gotten worse over time because the writers either do not care, or never bothered, to learn how anything in the setting is supposed to work. Its like how they completely fucked up time travel, warp speeds, holodecks, robots, and on down the list. Is there anything left they have not fucked up yet?

Anything NuTrek isn't Star Trek and that's a hill I'm ready to die on.

I haven't watched anything since Enterprise and haven't even watched all of Voyager, since I think Star Trek's time has passed and we need some new IPs with new stories, but why do you feel it isn't Star Trek at all?

Spok is an emotional wreck, Kirk is an idiot, running, pew, pew and no substance. That's just the movies.

The series... All officers are incompetent insubordinate idiots and the command is even worst. Screams, running, spok is an emotional wrek, Picard is a bumbling idiot, Wahmen can, men are useless, Klingon look like shit, I could go on.

Ah yeah, I'd completely forgotten about the movies. I watched the first two of nu-Trek. I thought one was a good Star Wars movie, but not Star Trek at all. Two was both not Star Trek and it was crap.

Quote from: Novastar on May 13, 2022, 10:04:35 PM
To throw some fuel on the fire about ST transporters...

There's an episode of ST:tNG where a transporter accident creates two Riker's. The "original" gets (unintentionally) marooned on a planet, and the "copy" becomes the character we've known for years at the point. Both characters believe they are the original.

So...this episode makes ST transporters, murder machines. And there is no soul (or at least, no unique soul).

Transporters have been "duplicating" people since the original series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnUqGTNezME&t=5s

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 10:31:26 PM
Without a malfunction killing you, how does the copy thing prove the transporter kills you? IMHO at best it proves it can work as a replicator.

The idea that a teleporter kills you is on the basis that the *only* thing the teleporter does is create a copy of you on the other side. It scans you, sends the information about you to the other end, and another you is created from matter that exists over there. At that point, all of the original you still exists on the sending end - so it kills you just as an afterthought. If it just didn't do that last step, the normal result would be two copies every time.

That isn't how transporters are implied to function in Star Trek, though. The implication is that the physical atoms of a person are sent through the beam to the other side and reassembled.

I think the accidental duplication of Riker is best explained as the result of error corrections. Some atoms may be lost in transport, so additional matter is injected in to fill in the gaps - using the context to fill in between. Normally this is less than 1%, but in an extreme case, as much as 50% can be lost and still produce a successful transport - because taking out half a random half of the atoms of a pattern still lets you infer the rest. So each copy got half of Riker's original matter, and the rest was inferred.

Quote from: jhkim on May 14, 2022, 12:32:41 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 13, 2022, 10:31:26 PM
Without a malfunction killing you, how does the copy thing prove the transporter kills you? IMHO at best it proves it can work as a replicator.

The idea that a teleporter kills you is on the basis that the *only* thing the teleporter does is create a copy of you on the other side. It scans you, sends the information about you to the other end, and another you is created from matter that exists over there. At that point, all of the original you still exists on the sending end - so it kills you just as an afterthought. If it just didn't do that last step, the normal result would be two copies every time.

That isn't how transporters are implied to function in Star Trek, though. The implication is that the physical atoms of a person are sent through the beam to the other side and reassembled.

I think the accidental duplication of Riker is best explained as the result of error corrections. Some atoms may be lost in transport, so additional matter is injected in to fill in the gaps - using the context to fill in between. Normally this is less than 1%, but in an extreme case, as much as 50% can be lost and still produce a successful transport - because taking out half a random half of the atoms of a pattern still lets you infer the rest. So each copy got half of Riker's original matter, and the rest was inferred.

But in ST we SEE how you're FIRST disintegrated and THEN reintegrated in the destination.

I think the writters thought it was a cool idea (IT IS) and then wrote the episodes without consideration to what that would mean for the setting.

IMHO such tech wouldn't be of widespread use among the freaking military if it could malfunction like that. Just imagine you sudenly have two COs? WTF is the crew going to do?

And if you could end with two can you end with more? could you end with none?

Nope, as cool as it is no freaking military would use such tech on their war vehicles, to transport even their highest ranking officers and politicians? And alien dignataries? Nop, no freaking way.