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Author Topic: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?  (Read 14363 times)

Mishihari

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2022, 12:24:58 AM »
You need on original master for the transporter pattern and the pattern is lost once the subject is reconstituted.
There's no good reason why the pattern would be lost if the pattern is just information, so it has to be something else that gets stored temporarily in the "pattern buffer" but I'm not sure what it would be other than handwavium.

The position, state, and bonds of every atom within a human body is just a crazy amount of information.  It wouldn't be too implausible to say that the transporter processes it in batches as it goes and doesn't ever retain the whole set of information.

LOL, you are A-Okay with FTL travel but balk at the ammount of information? On a show that has a handheld medical thingy that can diagnosticate ANYTHING on ANY species? A comunicator/universal translator built in the pin insignias of the crew? Rayguns that can act both as tasers and as death/disintegrator rays? With holodecks that not only project but the projections are solid, have smell, taste, etc?

You've hit on a pet peeve of mine.  The idea that if one accepts some unrealistic thing in fiction, then one must accept all unrealistic things.  This quickly leads off into flying foo-foo land where reality is everything in the players imagination.  I didn't say that it should be impossible to store all of that info in a Trek universe, just that if one wanted a plausible reason for a limitation, then data quantity wouldn't be a bad one.  Most of the tech you mentioned isn't all that wild.  I can at least imagine how it might work.  Transporters, on the other hand, look like a technology about a thousand years down the line in development time from the rest.  I would just as rather take it out if it weren't such a ST trope.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2022, 12:34:40 AM »
You need on original master for the transporter pattern and the pattern is lost once the subject is reconstituted.
There's no good reason why the pattern would be lost if the pattern is just information, so it has to be something else that gets stored temporarily in the "pattern buffer" but I'm not sure what it would be other than handwavium.

The position, state, and bonds of every atom within a human body is just a crazy amount of information.  It wouldn't be too implausible to say that the transporter processes it in batches as it goes and doesn't ever retain the whole set of information.

LOL, you are A-Okay with FTL travel but balk at the ammount of information? On a show that has a handheld medical thingy that can diagnosticate ANYTHING on ANY species? A comunicator/universal translator built in the pin insignias of the crew? Rayguns that can act both as tasers and as death/disintegrator rays? With holodecks that not only project but the projections are solid, have smell, taste, etc?

You've hit on a pet peeve of mine.  The idea that if one accepts some unrealistic thing in fiction, then one must accept all unrealistic things.  This quickly leads off into flying foo-foo land where reality is everything in the players imagination.  I didn't say that it should be impossible to store all of that info in a Trek universe, just that if one wanted a plausible reason for a limitation, then data quantity wouldn't be a bad one.  Most of the tech you mentioned isn't all that wild.  I can at least imagine how it might work.  Transporters, on the other hand, look like a technology about a thousand years down the line in development time from the rest.  I would just as rather take it out if it weren't such a ST trope.

WUT?

I'm talking about ST's canon, what does that have to do with players pulling stuff from their ass?

I do agree that Trnasporters NEED some hard set limits for an RPG. But to do so I have to break from canon and my players must be okay with me doing so.

Same for the tricorder, it needs carved on stone limits.

Either that or both technologies have to be jetizoned IMHO.
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Mishihari

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2022, 01:45:55 AM »
You need on original master for the transporter pattern and the pattern is lost once the subject is reconstituted.
There's no good reason why the pattern would be lost if the pattern is just information, so it has to be something else that gets stored temporarily in the "pattern buffer" but I'm not sure what it would be other than handwavium.

The position, state, and bonds of every atom within a human body is just a crazy amount of information.  It wouldn't be too implausible to say that the transporter processes it in batches as it goes and doesn't ever retain the whole set of information.

LOL, you are A-Okay with FTL travel but balk at the ammount of information? On a show that has a handheld medical thingy that can diagnosticate ANYTHING on ANY species? A comunicator/universal translator built in the pin insignias of the crew? Rayguns that can act both as tasers and as death/disintegrator rays? With holodecks that not only project but the projections are solid, have smell, taste, etc?

You've hit on a pet peeve of mine.  The idea that if one accepts some unrealistic thing in fiction, then one must accept all unrealistic things.  This quickly leads off into flying foo-foo land where reality is everything in the players imagination.  I didn't say that it should be impossible to store all of that info in a Trek universe, just that if one wanted a plausible reason for a limitation, then data quantity wouldn't be a bad one.  Most of the tech you mentioned isn't all that wild.  I can at least imagine how it might work.  Transporters, on the other hand, look like a technology about a thousand years down the line in development time from the rest.  I would just as rather take it out if it weren't such a ST trope.

WUT?

I'm talking about ST's canon, what does that have to do with players pulling stuff from their ass?

I do agree that Trnasporters NEED some hard set limits for an RPG. But to do so I have to break from canon and my players must be okay with me doing so.

Same for the tricorder, it needs carved on stone limits.

Either that or both technologies have to be jetizoned IMHO.

The comment was aimed more at your point of "if you can accept ftl how can you have data limitations?" than the specifics of Trek, so not entirely on-topic.  It's a faulty argument that leads to all kinds of bad things.  It's also heard in the context of D&D:  "If it's okay to have fanciful things like dragons why can't I have a robot/vampire necromancer?"

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2022, 01:47:51 AM »
IF we grant that teleportation is possible and on the other side comes out someone with your exact DNA, memories, etc, couldn't it be possible for the consciousness to be transmited?

Known Space shows that the teleporter does indeed kill the original and make a copy at the destination. If I recall right it either was revealed in an accident/malfunction where the original wasnt killed. Or more likely some criminal was using it to be in 2 places at once to commit some crime. The Puppeteers confirm this and that there is no soul or afterlife. Which makes their casual use of the teleporter all the more baffling considering their intense fear of death or injury.

TNG though played very loosy goosy with the teleporters.

Funny I have read Ringworld (All 4 novels) several times and don't recall that.
Omega said it came up in the Gil Hamilton of ARM stories. Which is possible -- the ARM is all about suppressing technologies that are too dangerous for the public to know about, so most of the stories read like secret histories or conspiracy theories, which subvert established elements of the setting.

But I don't remember it coming up there, either. And even if it did, it's from an early period in both the the development and internal chronology of Known Space. Rather than being suppressed, teleporters are so ubiquitous by the time of Ringworld. The first novel starts with the protagonist teleporting around the world to extend his birthday. It's everyday technology, and humanity of the time is far more technologically advanced than in the time of Gil Hamilton. So you'd think the truth would have come out. Not only that, but the first major stop in Ringworld is the Puppeteer homeworld, where teleportation is even more advanced. And the Puppeteers are smarter than humans, even more advanced, and terrified of injury or death, but still use the technology. So even if there's a Gil story that says teleportation is death, it's never referenced again, and it's clearly contradicted by the main events of Known Space. So even in the best case, it's a random idea that was dropped like a stone.

Mishihari

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2022, 02:09:19 AM »
I don't remember it either and I think I've read all but a few of the Known Space books.  Which story was it?

Omega

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2022, 02:15:12 PM »
Newer series have continued ued to get loose with the transporter. Strange New Worlds allows for gearing up mid teleport (into new outfits and such) along with beaming medicine directly into people from great distances.

Exactly and its only gotten worse over time because the writers either do not care, or never bothered, to learn how anything in the setting is supposed to work. Its like how they completely fucked up time travel, warp speeds, holodecks, robots, and on down the list. Is there anything left they have not fucked up yet?

Omega

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2022, 02:21:36 PM »
Omega said it came up in the Gil Hamilton of ARM stories. Which is possible -- the ARM is all about suppressing technologies that are too dangerous for the public to know about, so most of the stories read like secret histories or conspiracy theories, which subvert established elements of the setting.

But I don't remember it coming up there, either.

The Teleporter Kills you part is from the Gil/ARM series far as I recall. The Puppeteer comment on souls is In either the first or second Ringworld book.

Still trying to pin down where the teleporter reveal was. And since Im not seeing it in the first 3 Gil stories its either in the 4th, some ARM story, or I am misremembering.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2022, 04:37:59 PM »
You need on original master for the transporter pattern and the pattern is lost once the subject is reconstituted.
There's no good reason why the pattern would be lost if the pattern is just information, so it has to be something else that gets stored temporarily in the "pattern buffer" but I'm not sure what it would be other than handwavium.

The position, state, and bonds of every atom within a human body is just a crazy amount of information.  It wouldn't be too implausible to say that the transporter processes it in batches as it goes and doesn't ever retain the whole set of information.

LOL, you are A-Okay with FTL travel but balk at the ammount of information? On a show that has a handheld medical thingy that can diagnosticate ANYTHING on ANY species? A comunicator/universal translator built in the pin insignias of the crew? Rayguns that can act both as tasers and as death/disintegrator rays? With holodecks that not only project but the projections are solid, have smell, taste, etc?

You've hit on a pet peeve of mine.  The idea that if one accepts some unrealistic thing in fiction, then one must accept all unrealistic things.  This quickly leads off into flying foo-foo land where reality is everything in the players imagination.  I didn't say that it should be impossible to store all of that info in a Trek universe, just that if one wanted a plausible reason for a limitation, then data quantity wouldn't be a bad one.  Most of the tech you mentioned isn't all that wild.  I can at least imagine how it might work.  Transporters, on the other hand, look like a technology about a thousand years down the line in development time from the rest.  I would just as rather take it out if it weren't such a ST trope.

WUT?

I'm talking about ST's canon, what does that have to do with players pulling stuff from their ass?

I do agree that Trnasporters NEED some hard set limits for an RPG. But to do so I have to break from canon and my players must be okay with me doing so.

Same for the tricorder, it needs carved on stone limits.

Either that or both technologies have to be jetizoned IMHO.

The comment was aimed more at your point of "if you can accept ftl how can you have data limitations?" than the specifics of Trek, so not entirely on-topic.  It's a faulty argument that leads to all kinds of bad things.  It's also heard in the context of D&D:  "If it's okay to have fanciful things like dragons why can't I have a robot/vampire necromancer?"

Except the thread is about a GM wanting to run ST and what he wants or doesn't in his game. In that vein my comments are also from the GM PoV.

But do keep on telling me how me pointing all of the super tech in the setting invalidates your point about data is the same as players wanting to justify anything because dragons.
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #83 on: May 13, 2022, 04:42:19 PM »
IF we grant that teleportation is possible and on the other side comes out someone with your exact DNA, memories, etc, couldn't it be possible for the consciousness to be transmited?

Known Space shows that the teleporter does indeed kill the original and make a copy at the destination. If I recall right it either was revealed in an accident/malfunction where the original wasnt killed. Or more likely some criminal was using it to be in 2 places at once to commit some crime. The Puppeteers confirm this and that there is no soul or afterlife. Which makes their casual use of the teleporter all the more baffling considering their intense fear of death or injury.

TNG though played very loosy goosy with the teleporters.

Funny I have read Ringworld (All 4 novels) several times and don't recall that.
Omega said it came up in the Gil Hamilton of ARM stories. Which is possible -- the ARM is all about suppressing technologies that are too dangerous for the public to know about, so most of the stories read like secret histories or conspiracy theories, which subvert established elements of the setting.

But I don't remember it coming up there, either. And even if it did, it's from an early period in both the the development and internal chronology of Known Space. Rather than being suppressed, teleporters are so ubiquitous by the time of Ringworld. The first novel starts with the protagonist teleporting around the world to extend his birthday. It's everyday technology, and humanity of the time is far more technologically advanced than in the time of Gil Hamilton. So you'd think the truth would have come out. Not only that, but the first major stop in Ringworld is the Puppeteer homeworld, where teleportation is even more advanced. And the Puppeteers are smarter than humans, even more advanced, and terrified of injury or death, but still use the technology. So even if there's a Gil story that says teleportation is death, it's never referenced again, and it's clearly contradicted by the main events of Known Space. So even in the best case, it's a random idea that was dropped like a stone.

I haven't read any of those, so if it's there I have no way to know.

But your point about the Puppeteers is the same one I made and I do think it invalidates all "transporters kill you" from any earlier period in time. Hell maybe at some point they did and then the tech got perfected, something that's backed by your point about the ARM.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #84 on: May 13, 2022, 04:43:56 PM »
Newer series have continued ued to get loose with the transporter. Strange New Worlds allows for gearing up mid teleport (into new outfits and such) along with beaming medicine directly into people from great distances.

Exactly and its only gotten worse over time because the writers either do not care, or never bothered, to learn how anything in the setting is supposed to work. Its like how they completely fucked up time travel, warp speeds, holodecks, robots, and on down the list. Is there anything left they have not fucked up yet?

Anything NuTrek isn't Star Trek and that's a hill I'm ready to die on.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

HappyDaze

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #85 on: May 13, 2022, 04:48:14 PM »
Newer series have continued ued to get loose with the transporter. Strange New Worlds allows for gearing up mid teleport (into new outfits and such) along with beaming medicine directly into people from great distances.

Exactly and its only gotten worse over time because the writers either do not care, or never bothered, to learn how anything in the setting is supposed to work. Its like how they completely fucked up time travel, warp speeds, holodecks, robots, and on down the list. Is there anything left they have not fucked up yet?

Anything NuTrek isn't Star Trek and that's a hill I'm ready to die on.
Lower Decks is good Trek.

Thornhammer

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #86 on: May 13, 2022, 04:52:43 PM »
Newer series have continued ued to get loose with the transporter. Strange New Worlds allows for gearing up mid teleport (into new outfits and such) along with beaming medicine directly into people from great distances.

That was a little on the silly side, yes. I would expect something like that to be in a more modern era Trek series (say late Voyager or the Picard timeframe) but not prior to Kirk.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #87 on: May 13, 2022, 04:55:05 PM »
Newer series have continued ued to get loose with the transporter. Strange New Worlds allows for gearing up mid teleport (into new outfits and such) along with beaming medicine directly into people from great distances.

Exactly and its only gotten worse over time because the writers either do not care, or never bothered, to learn how anything in the setting is supposed to work. Its like how they completely fucked up time travel, warp speeds, holodecks, robots, and on down the list. Is there anything left they have not fucked up yet?

Anything NuTrek isn't Star Trek and that's a hill I'm ready to die on.
Lower Decks is good Trek.

IF sincere this here proves you have a shitty taste and should be ashamed of yourself.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

HappyDaze

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #88 on: May 13, 2022, 05:02:08 PM »
Newer series have continued ued to get loose with the transporter. Strange New Worlds allows for gearing up mid teleport (into new outfits and such) along with beaming medicine directly into people from great distances.

Exactly and its only gotten worse over time because the writers either do not care, or never bothered, to learn how anything in the setting is supposed to work. Its like how they completely fucked up time travel, warp speeds, holodecks, robots, and on down the list. Is there anything left they have not fucked up yet?

Anything NuTrek isn't Star Trek and that's a hill I'm ready to die on.
Lower Decks is good Trek.

IF sincere this here proves you have a shitty taste and should be ashamed of yourself.
Have you watched it?

GeekyBugle

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Re: Star Trek RPG... What if there is no time travel?
« Reply #89 on: May 13, 2022, 05:14:37 PM »
Newer series have continued ued to get loose with the transporter. Strange New Worlds allows for gearing up mid teleport (into new outfits and such) along with beaming medicine directly into people from great distances.

Exactly and its only gotten worse over time because the writers either do not care, or never bothered, to learn how anything in the setting is supposed to work. Its like how they completely fucked up time travel, warp speeds, holodecks, robots, and on down the list. Is there anything left they have not fucked up yet?

Anything NuTrek isn't Star Trek and that's a hill I'm ready to die on.
Lower Decks is good Trek.

IF sincere this here proves you have a shitty taste and should be ashamed of yourself.
Have you watched it?

Penis joke, fart joke, men are useles, slay kween... Yes, saw a chapter or two. It is shit, maggot infested shit.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell