Quote from: tenbones on July 18, 2021, 04:42:52 PM

Quote from: palaeomerus on July 18, 2021, 03:41:01 AM
Before that a whole lot of properties were doing some flavor of D20 seeing it as the big kahuna place to be, ... I think there were other crossovers too though I can't remember any. I know there was a savage setting with a fantasy world that broke into floating islands and I some people at the FLGS were doing a version of it in True 20 that they cobbled together.

So again it seems strange and brand cannibalistic to me though not unprecedented.

...

The problem is of course all those 3rd party books that did crossover with d20 - were doing so to get a piece of the d20 pie within the d20 realm. Savage Pathfinder is not that. Savage Pathfinder as with Savage Rifts is the attempt to tap into those established fanbases to bring them over to Savage Worlds. So fans can actually see their favorite settings running on a different chassis, expressed in different ways *with fidelity* to the concepts established within those native systems.

And it's working. You'll never find a more die-hard fanbase than Palladium fans (possibly only eclipsed by Warhammer fans - but that edifice is cracking under the Woke assault). Yet Palladium fans are driving new blood into the Savage Worlds gamingsphere. And it will have the same effect with Pathfinder fans - especially those that soured on PF2e.
...

All d20 Fantasy games suffer from two very big issues:

1: They are not D&D

2: Post 2009 - They are also not Pathfinder.

Nobody cares about the even more gonzo setting versions of D&D and PF. Especially if they are not getting the same level of 'support' published for them that you see with PF and D&D.

And no one cares about your non d20 rules based die pool/die step/d100 fantasy game. Why?

1- Not D&D 2- Not Pathfinder.

This is why I actually am Pro Savage Pathfinder; because it gives Established fanbases a reason to try a non-d20 system in a context that is acceptable to their IP centric view of the hobby.

I am of the view that having the Number 1 & 2 top selling RPGs systems both being d20 D&D is not good for the long term growth and retention of people in the hobby.

Quote from: tenbones on July 20, 2021, 12:19:47 PM

Quote from: Batjon on July 19, 2021, 11:45:29 PM
My katana can beat up your sword! Katanas are BEST swords.   

Ironically - I was just having this discussion with one of my players last night. Katanas in SP is not good to me.

It's 1d6+1 damage and two-handed. UGH.

Everyone knows it should be 1d20 and AP20.

Seriously I think it should be 1d8 and +1 if used two-handed (not unlike their Bastard Sword). If I were being really picky - I'd give it 1d8 AP1 vs. Light armor. 1d6 vs Heavy armor.

Alright, I am only responding to this because I am conditioned to cry out that a katana is just a bad large sabre with poor hand protection but is still kind of impressive when you think about how bad the iron they could get in Japan was for sword making. When you can make a pretty okay sword out of metal you wouldn't want to make pots out or durable farming gear of with a lot of bodge-y "Deal with this crap because you have no other choice" technique that is notable, and when the thing becomes a cherished vexillary signifier of samurai status as one by one the samurai were forbidden to carry their preferred weapons while in public for show or self defense then you can see where the mystique comes from. And yeah in fantasy most people are interested in the legendary version of something with which a hero smote down a wyrm, not the crude banal whatsit that inspired it. Nobody wants their fantasy to be mostly be about bills, leather hats with an iron bar across the top, sharpened sticks, and shillelaghs.

200 years from now people might be wondering why we though whirling mono-molecular wire around with a special glove would be cool. Surely that would not even slow a knife missile down. PSI as a weapon? HA HA No! It just helps you not feel pain when you get remote telepresence dental work. Or something.

Quote from: palaeomerus on July 20, 2021, 05:21:15 PM

Quote from: tenbones on July 20, 2021, 12:19:47 PM

Quote from: Batjon on July 19, 2021, 11:45:29 PM
My katana can beat up your sword! Katanas are BEST swords.   

Ironically - I was just having this discussion with one of my players last night. Katanas in SP is not good to me.

It's 1d6+1 damage and two-handed. UGH.

Everyone knows it should be 1d20 and AP20.

Seriously I think it should be 1d8 and +1 if used two-handed (not unlike their Bastard Sword). If I were being really picky - I'd give it 1d8 AP1 vs. Light armor. 1d6 vs Heavy armor.

Alright, I am only responding to this because I am conditioned to cry out that a katana is just a bad large sabre with poor hand protection but is still kind of impressive when you think about how bad the iron they could get in Japan was for sword making. When you can make a pretty okay sword out of metal you wouldn't want to make pots out or durable farming gear of with a lot of bodge-y "Deal with this crap because you have no other choice" technique that is notable, and when the thing becomes a cherished vexillary signifier of samurai status as one by one the samurai were forbidden to carry their preferred weapons while in public for show or self defense then you can see where the mystique comes from. And yeah in fantasy most people are interested in the legendary version of something with which a hero smote down a wyrm, not the crude banal whatsit that inspired it. Nobody wants their fantasy to be mostly be about bills, leather hats with an iron bar across the top, sharpened sticks, and shillelaghs.

200 years from now people might be wondering why we though whirling mono-molecular wire around with a special glove would be cool. Surely that would not even slow a knife missile down. PSI as a weapon? HA HA No! It just helps you not feel pain when you get remote telepresence dental work. Or something.

Katana isn't just a bad saber, it's a decent enough weapon and I'm a little bit impressed that they figured out how to make a good blade with subpar steel. Though funny enough if you use the same method on good steel you weaken it because you work out all the carbon.

In terms of effectiveness swords kind of sucked versus armor in general and were the ancient equivalent of carrying a pistol. But since this is fantasy the long sword is probably the best bet in terms of gaming statistics.

and hence I acknowledge both the fictional and fantastic. +1 AP vs. Light armor. And 1d6 vs. Heavy armor.

That's not a big deal. I don't ascribe to the the Magic-Katana thing either. I'm not that guy (and I'm part Japanese! heh). But you know, this is a long established gripe fighting against the anime-historian generation of Highlander fans.

Katana are good swords for what they're designed for, as a *sidearm*. They're not made to fight as a primary weapon against western plate and chain armor. There are puh-lenty of videos from Skallagrim, Metatron, Shadiversity etc. etc. covering this.

But for fantasy gaming - katana don't necessary suffer from "iron quality", hell, or even design. It's the "idea" of a sword-reverent culture that captures our imaginations that people really like. Much like the Jedi in in fiction. I think it's a shame that the reverence for the sword isn't more emphasized in European fiction but that's also why we need to create our settings to represent this sentiment.

I'm not *particularly* interested in trying to be realistic in my fantasy games, but there is definitely wiggle-room depending on the context of the setting and game.'

I do feel there is this emergent resentment about the katana as a weapon as a result of the ludicrous mythologizing of the weapon. Which is understandable - but they're biased too.

Quote from: tenbones on July 21, 2021, 10:57:55 AM
and hence I acknowledge both the fictional and fantastic. +1 AP vs. Light armor. And 1d6 vs. Heavy armor.

That's not a big deal. I don't ascribe to the the Magic-Katana thing either. I'm not that guy (and I'm part Japanese! heh). But you know, this is a long established gripe fighting against the anime-historian generation of Highlander fans.

Katana are good swords for what they're designed for, as a *sidearm*. They're not made to fight as a primary weapon against western plate and chain armor. There are puh-lenty of videos from Skallagrim, Metatron, Shadiversity etc. etc. covering this.

But for fantasy gaming - katana don't necessary suffer from "iron quality", hell, or even design. It's the "idea" of a sword-reverent culture that captures our imaginations that people really like. Much like the Jedi in in fiction. I think it's a shame that the reverence for the sword isn't more emphasized in European fiction but that's also why we need to create our settings to represent this sentiment.

I'm not *particularly* interested in trying to be realistic in my fantasy games, but there is definitely wiggle-room depending on the context of the setting and game.

Yeah but if you're going to do that then all weapons need to have damage or ap vs armor types. With maces and hammers having extra ap vs rigid armor, swords being more effective against unarmored or lightly armored opponents and axes somewhere in the middle. Spears should be the most balanced plus reach and glaives should grant a defensive bonus.

You'll also have clear winners and losers when it comes to weapons vs armor and space needed.

Anything you do to the katana should also be done to all swords of similar weight and dimensions. Which would be bad but savage worlds fans may object to applying different damage values based on the armor it's rarely done mechanically. Hell most people i know ignore the ballistic damage rules for Kevlar.

Note: I used to practice kenjutsu before I started up with HEMA I found a lot of overlap between the two weapons. The katana is notably shorter and lacks a cross guard, mechanically that's about the only significant difference even the single edge and it's slight curve aren't that noticeable. In terms of martial practice there is a bunch of overlap and some interesting conclusions in both styles. Example katana practitioners rarely would ever parry or allow the blades to bite into each other. With a long sword you tend to make more use of the whole sword, and beat it to all hell.

Quote from: Ocule on July 21, 2021, 11:04:51 AM
Yeah but if you're going to do that then all weapons need to have damage or ap vs armor types. With maces and hammers having extra ap vs rigid armor, swords being more effective against unarmored or lightly armored opponents and axes somewhere in the middle. Spears should be the most balanced plus reach and glaives should grant a defensive bonus.

Savage Rolemaster Arms Law? 

Quote from: Ocule on July 21, 2021, 11:04:51 AM
Yeah but if you're going to do that then all weapons need to have damage or ap vs armor types. With maces and hammers having extra ap vs rigid armor, swords being more effective against unarmored or lightly armored opponents and axes somewhere in the middle. Spears should be the most balanced plus reach and glaives should grant a defensive bonus.

Nah. I don't have to do any of that. That's my point (and the beauty of SW being so easy to tweak with small numbers). I mean... if I leave it as it is, the Magical Katana is still pretty good. 1d6+1 can't be understated. It's WEIRD on its face in Savage Worlds, or at least it's uncommon. The thing that glares out at me more than anything is the fact they made it Two-Handed. That is more egregious than anything whether you're a katana-fanboy or someone wanting historical realism.

The abstraction mechanics contextually to the system are already pretty solid. It's not meant to be too granular. So giving katana 1d6+1 is already a bit of an oddity when trying to differentiate a katana from other long-blades. I'd have been happy if they just gave it the same stats as a longsword. SW is supposed to be about tropes - so I understand the need to differentiate.

Yes that means putting a pinch of "myth" into the mix.

Spears - I'm a huge spear fan. But the reality of the spear historically, is it is an easy weapon to manufacture, and the greatest benefit of it is its reach. I have this thing called the Spartan Test which is "Can I emulate a cinematic Spartan using Spear and Shield with this system to my satisfaction?" - and so the system has to represent that. I think Savage Worlds passes with flying colors. The assumption of the weapon is of course by itself it has reach and that means the system has to leverage the Reach quality to satisfaction. Well with an Edge like First Strike (and improved First Strike) it certainly does. In the context of the abstraction of combat it gives you +1 Parry when using two-hands. Which is fair. I personally think the damage is probably a little light... but the system gives you a plethora of spear-alternatives which satisfies my needs. Boar Spears, Ranseurs, Glaives, etc. which could mechanically all be reskinned to represent anything special I want represented.

Ironically - if you want to min-max, the Maul is a *super* awesome weapon. AP2 AND +2 to destroy objects? Dude, that's a shield/armor/weapon destroying monster. Plus it does huge damage.

Quote from: Ocule on July 21, 2021, 11:04:51 AMYou'll also have clear winners and losers when it comes to weapons vs armor and space needed.

You already do. It's called damage output. The benefit of having small numbers is that it's easy to ballpark the effectiveness of your weapon of choice. Coupled with inherent weapon abilities (AP, Reach, Ignoring Shields, Parry bonuses) on top of whatever your schtick is - it's *really* easy to see the winners/losers. But that's how it should be. I appreciate a system that will allow a PC to take unconventional weapons to new useful levels. Called shots for instance in the hands of a skilled PC makes even basic low-damage weapons very dangerous. And it's totally possible to leverage that reality which makes Thieves/Assassin ambush PC's *extremely* dangerous with their otherwise lighter weaponry. Vs. just being damage multipliers in d20 where HP sponge-factor renders it very much less optimal.

Armor in SW is pretty basic stuff. It's literally a 4-bonus range that rarely deviates from that. The rest of the consideration is Shields, Fighting Skill and overall Toughness. 

Quote from: Ocule on July 21, 2021, 11:04:51 AMAnything you do to the katana should also be done to all swords of similar weight and dimensions. Which would be bad but savage worlds fans may object to applying different damage values based on the armor it's rarely done mechanically. Hell most people i know ignore the ballistic damage rules for Kevlar.

Nah. It's already largely done. Dude a Bastard Sword is superior to the Magical Katana in almost every way you can slice it. The katana RAW already has a weird damage value - simply to justify it's unique place in historical-fantasy minds. I mean you COULD get that granular, I see precisely zero mandate to do so since I feel for what SW is trying to do, it already does that.

Quote from: Ocule on July 21, 2021, 11:04:51 AMNote: I used to practice kenjutsu before I started up with HEMA I found a lot of overlap between the two weapons. The katana is notably shorter and lacks a cross guard, mechanically that's about the only significant difference even the single edge and it's slight curve aren't that noticeable. In terms of martial practice there is a bunch of overlap and some interesting conclusions in both styles. Example katana practitioners rarely would ever parry or allow the blades to bite into each other. With a long sword you tend to make more use of the whole sword, and beat it to all hell.

Yep. And SW isn't, has never, will never try to be that granular. Remember it's supposed to represent some general baseline of what people consider fun. The degree to which we want that granularity inserted into the game, the system is more than flexible to add that without wholesale changing everything.

You could for instance say Katana gives you -1 Parry. But the reality of it is people are taught to not use a katana that way in its traditional use. Plus lets face it, its not fun. But nothing prevents you from getting that granular and detailed. It doesn't mean a knight that picks up a katana and started using it like a Longsword (and fucking up the blade) would necessarily require a change of the weapon stats. In fact, this would be my argument of making "less changes" than effective tweaks.

I'm working on martial arts Edges (eastern and western), and this is something worth considering that weapon schools might give these kinds of penalties as a form of balance - so a kenjutsu school might give you -1 Parry for some other cool benefit as a byproduct of how they use their weapon of choice.

Worth consideration.

Quote from: DocJones on July 21, 2021, 12:17:51 PM

Quote from: Ocule on July 21, 2021, 11:04:51 AM
Yeah but if you're going to do that then all weapons need to have damage or ap vs armor types. With maces and hammers having extra ap vs rigid armor, swords being more effective against unarmored or lightly armored opponents and axes somewhere in the middle. Spears should be the most balanced plus reach and glaives should grant a defensive bonus.

Savage Rolemaster Arms Law? 

Y'all just made me dribble a little bit of Dr Pepper on my shirt. Heh!

Quote from: DocJones on July 21, 2021, 12:17:51 PM
Savage Rolemaster Arms Law? 

Conveniently they have that all contained and condensed on one chart. SW is gonna SW.

SW has little subsystems for just about everything.

Mass Combat rules - the entirety of the rules cover anything from a fight larger than the party to literally millions of combatants fighting in a back-alley (if you want) or fleets of starships slugging it out over your planet. And the rules fit on 1.5 pages. They include and encourage individual PC (and NPC) actions during the siege which allows PC's to attempt to stand out on their own merit and do cool shit.

Networking - Want to PC's to find information in with RP and use of their skills in an interesting and fast way? Networking rules lets you do it in a quick easy manner leveraging everything from fast-talking your way through the process, or tossing money around, or cracking skulls without bogging your game down ala CP2020 Netrunning. Plus it let's PC's that otherwise wouldn't consider themselves "social" do it in very "anti-social" ways and produce solid results (as well as springboards for possible side-adventures!). These rules are a single page.

Quick Encounters - Want to do an encounter (perhaps as a flashback) without having to run the entire encounter and eat up current gametime? The Quick encounter sub-system let's you have your PC's engage in a scenario using their skills checks as delineated by the GM to resolve a scenario quickly without getting down-n-dirty if only to establish results for exposition where the outcomes are unknown. This is super-useful for, again, not eating up game-time but establishing interesting and cool facts from the past, or doing fast and dirty scenes which leverage the PC's own abilities to establish the outcomes of something moderately important - like in order to pull off a larger heist the PC's must acquire <X>. Where <X> is in the home of some powerful NPC. Now you could play it all out - or Quick Encounter it. It has a *pseudo* Blades In the Dark feel, where you can let a PC(s) do this scene with a few die-rolls according to the parameters set by the GM rather than play it all out - if it would exclude the rest of the party. 2-page sub-system. EASY.

Social Combat - Effectively it's using rules for doing a 3-round social combat system for changing the opinions of important people in any social encounter. Good for trials, heavy social-gathering scenes, speeches and rallies and you want to have a little more depth than a single Persuasion or Intimidate or Performance roll. This gives some real ebb-and-flow.

... and wait there's more! There's like half-a-dozen other little subsystems that plug directly into the game including Downtime, Interludes, and tons of stuff to keep the game flowing without getting too bogged down in minutiae. (I personally like a lot of minutiea - but the fun part here is you can do it all when it serves the game without losing momentum or breaking stride.)

The biggest issue I've had with Savage Worlds is that Hero's Journey rolls don't always mesh well with the character as created.

Case in point is my Rifts 'borg, who rolled Scrounger as a free Edge but who really lacks the attributes to do it well (since such Networking attempts are gimped by his Charisma penalty).

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 22, 2021, 10:34:12 AM
The biggest issue I've had with Savage Worlds is that Hero's Journey rolls don't always mesh well with the character as created.

Case in point is my Rifts 'borg, who rolled Scrounger as a free Edge but who really lacks the attributes to do it well (since such Networking attempts are gimped by his Charisma penalty).

I kind of treat Rifts like Supers. I work with players and generally let them choose stuff that they want. I want players to play what they want to play and leave the random stuff to be things that happen in-game.

Of course there's always exceptions to the general rule, I'm not a big fan of total random chargen. Heroes Journey definitely is something I think is cool - but I still exercise some knudge-room whether it means make multiple rolls and pick best option(s), or just saying screw it - pick your choices, and let me ratify it. Boom! let's rock.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 22, 2021, 10:34:12 AM
The biggest issue I've had with Savage Worlds is that Hero's Journey rolls don't always mesh well with the character as created.

Case in point is my Rifts 'borg, who rolled Scrounger as a free Edge but who really lacks the attributes to do it well (since such Networking attempts are gimped by his Charisma penalty).

Biggest issue I've had with Savage Rifts is stacking flat modifers. Some things become almost impossible to succeed (or fail). Ever try shooting a SAMAS doing a high-speed strafing run? A -5 (or worse) even at short range can make for very frustrating combats. Unless the attack roll aces, you miss more than a starting WFRP character. OTOH, there are a lot of targets that simply can't be hurt by even heavy weapons unless there are aces on the damage roll. I found the need to have rolls ace just to have any chance of success is not fun.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2021, 04:41:37 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 22, 2021, 10:34:12 AM
The biggest issue I've had with Savage Worlds is that Hero's Journey rolls don't always mesh well with the character as created.

Case in point is my Rifts 'borg, who rolled Scrounger as a free Edge but who really lacks the attributes to do it well (since such Networking attempts are gimped by his Charisma penalty).

Biggest issue I've had with Savage Rifts is stacking flat modifers. Some things become almost impossible to succeed (or fail). Ever try shooting a SAMAS doing a high-speed strafing run? A -5 (or worse) even at short range can make for very frustrating combats. Unless the attack roll aces, you miss more than a starting WFRP character. OTOH, there are a lot of targets that simply can't be hurt by even heavy weapons unless there are aces on the damage roll. I found the need to have rolls ace just to have any chance of success is not fun.

   Aiming and targeting mods in power armor remove a great deal of the difficulty in shooting a moving SAMAS.  I do agree about armor penetration relative to weapons, as well as how they work.  In general, I swap out many instances of rail guns to auto cannons (from Sci fi companion) and other instances of rail guns to heavy cannons.   I also changed the rail gun to be a semi auto matic weapon with higher damage and a great deal more armor penetration (since the whole point is to penetrate armor).  I try to scale off of an average shot from a UAR-1 SHOULD harm an average glitterboy pilot.  As rail guns are now, the UAR-1 will not hurt the glitter boy on an average shot with a medium rail gun.   Nor would it hurt another UAR-1 with an average shot.  Change the UAR-1 main weapon to a cannon that has mulitple ammo load outs (AP, regular, and high explosive) and an AP shot (which to me is 1.5 times regular shot AP). Now the weapon (with AP 30 and dmg of 4d10 will hurt a glitter boy pilot on an average shot, and come in just shy of shaking up a UAR-1.  In cases where I leave the weapon a "rail" gun I keep the damage and raise the AP to double its value.   This makes the pea shooter on that same UAR-1 into a weapon with 28 AP and doing 3d12+3 damage.  Again on average hurting a glitter boy pilot and just under the threshold to damage a UAR-1 on an average shot.    I have yet to see how these work out in a battle with a bunch of armor, but it seems to make more sense for me if something like a UAR-1 has a decent chance (roll good damage with no aces) to cause real damage to another UAR-1 with the main weapon systems on board.   A tank that has little to no chance of damaging another tank with its main weapon system is pretty useless.

   I have not had any big battles with armored vehicles yet, so those changes could break some aspects of the game, I have only toyed with the math and tweaked. 

Well I think all of this is why Benny's exist. Flat comparison of the numbers I *assume* would produce a "less than average" comparison simply because of the fact that Bennys now are so flexible in upping Hit or Damage numbers.

Anyhow-

Been working on some stuff.

The issues I have with SWPF has nothing to do with Savage Worlds - rather it has to do with the fact they're translating Pathfinder itself to Savage Worlds.

- Clerics as healbots. Never liked it. Still don't like it. This is a total Pathfinder thing where they amped 3.x gameplay to the wrong direction. I'm in the process of creating a different Cleric class that is tied more intimately to the Gods and their Domains. Not *all* Clerics will be Healers, or rather if they do they may have Trappings that may not be desireable for others. Plus I want more distinction between Clerical orders in terms of their actual abilities. As such I'm going to likely put a list of Powers under each Domain so that the Gods in question will grant their Clerics a choice depending on their Portfolios in lieu of "Channel Healing" and shit like that. I'm also going to do a Deity-level writeup on codes of conduct so players have a solid idea of what is expected of them. My goal is to design it like the Faiths and Pantheons books from 2e D&D Forgotten Realms which were *excellent*.

- Pathfinder material in general. It's garbage design beyond the core stuff. Just looking at the endless nit-picking tiny-number advances for weak results makes most of their PRC's mechanically boring. Their distinctions are so petty that most of them are rendered moot by just using the normal Savage Worlds Edges and core task-resolution mechanics.

- I find myself looking more to 1e and 2e D&D inspiration for design goals. I'm working on the Cavalier and Samurai now.

- Interestingly, the effort I'm doing on Clerics, makes me want to take a crack at Warlocks from 5e. It occurs to me a more faithful rendition of the idea of a transactional relationship with a supernatural entity could totally work with a Pact Sub-system, vs. a Cleric that is a calling.

- I find Bards are *super* under-rated in discussions I've been having with Savage Pathfinder people. They are insanely useful as the ultimate "support" class but quite capable on their own. Contrary to some reviews that say they seem to be "combat oriented" - I merely point to the fact that Performance as a dump-Trait for them is *INSANELY* powerful and useful in social situation and downtime. I can see this class shining brightly in the hands of a player that is very active.

- Considering using the Grim and Gritty rules from Savage Rifts for high-end play where PC's can start modding their spells (and even gear) to have the Heavy Weapon/Armor quality. This will be the starting foray into Mega Damage encounters that should raise some eyebrows.

Quote from: tenbones on July 23, 2021, 01:39:27 PM
Well I think all of this is why Benny's exist. Flat comparison of the numbers I *assume* would produce a "less than average" comparison simply because of the fact that Bennys now are so flexible in upping Hit or Damage numbers.

Anyhow-

Been working on some stuff.

Maybe we can put our differences aside and work together? (Not that there where any differences anyway but it sounds better that way)

Because I agree with many of your ideas.