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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: HappyDaze on June 17, 2021, 08:09:37 PM

Title: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: HappyDaze on June 17, 2021, 08:09:37 PM
I just saw that Savage Pathfinder is up on DTRPG. Does anyone have it? How does it differ from playing fantasy with the core SW rules? What are your opinions on it?
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 17, 2021, 11:25:38 PM
I just saw that Savage Pathfinder is up on DTRPG. Does anyone have it? How does it differ from playing fantasy with the core SW rules? What are your opinions on it?

Oh...The final version is? As a backer I had previous versions for a while now.

Uh...Its alright. Il be primarily be using this for the magic items, class edges, and bestiary.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Jame Rowe on June 17, 2021, 11:28:35 PM
I just saw that Savage Pathfinder is up on DTRPG. Does anyone have it? How does it differ from playing fantasy with the core SW rules? What are your opinions on it?

Oh...The final version is? As a backer I had previous versions for a while now.

Uh...Its alright. Il be primarily be using this for the magic items, class edges, and bestiary.

I also backed it; also for the items and bestiary. It looks enjoyable.
I plan to offer some variation on the demihumans for my players, and run the adventure path for fun.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: 234ne on June 18, 2021, 02:50:29 AM
Hopefully it won't be too woke, but then again this is the two most woke publishers besides WotC so I won't count on it...
On a serious note, how would this be different from normal default Savage Worlds? Is it like Savage Rifts where you get 'archtypes' instead of 'classes'?
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 18, 2021, 03:11:21 AM
Hopefully it won't be too woke, but then again this is the two woke publishers besides WotC so I won't count on it...
On a serious note, how would this be different from normal default Savage Worlds? Is it like Savage Rifts where you get 'archtypes' instead of 'classes'?
Its not woke at all. Artwork is PF1 style (so actually fun and dynamic, instead of everybody looking like they ran out of coffee).
The only woke element is calling Races 'Ancestries', which is idiotic, but its one thing.

Difference wise: Everybody gets a class edge (as a bonus edge or they can take a background or profession edge instead). A class edge is a normal edge except slightly stronger (though usually comes with a baked in drawback).

Each class edge has a tree of edges related too it, and that edge tree is what makes up a 'class'. You can multiclass and grab other class edges, but you can only gain another class edge (as in pick a new type you lack before, not advance one you currently have) once per rank. Prestigie classes work a similar way to class edges.

The max number of wounds in one attack is limited to 4 to make combat a bit less lethal, there are new powers, and epic modifiers. Races are PF style which means a arbitrary amount of bonuses and are stronger then the default race-builder ones.

Powers recieve rebalacing in places to account for assumptions of magic items as well as other elements (such as armor being more widespread).

There are '+1 Magic Swords' but thankfully not '+2-5' magic swords, so there is some loot to be gained, but its not the christmas tree of before.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: 234ne on June 18, 2021, 03:26:57 AM
Difference wise: Everybody gets a class edge (as a bonus edge or they can take a background or profession edge instead). A class edge is a normal edge except slightly stronger (though usually comes with a baked in drawback).

Each class edge has a tree of edges related too it, and that edge tree is what makes up a 'class'. You can multiclass and grab other class edges, but you can only gain another class edge (as in pick a new type you lack before, not advance one you currently have) once per rank. Prestigie classes work a similar way to class edges.

The max number of wounds in one attack is limited to 4 to make combat a bit less lethal, there are new powers, and epic modifiers. Races are PF style which means a arbitrary amount of bonuses and are stronger then the default race-builder ones.

Okay that's quite interesting way to keep the customization of both systems with class levelling feeling of D&D. I'm kinda mixed with limiting wounds, but I can see the design-logic as SW really becomes 'retarded' when the dices keeps rolling (SW:RIFTS was more overpowered than regular RIFTS, something I thought impossible).
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 18, 2021, 03:37:37 AM
I'm kinda mixed with limiting wounds, but I can see the design-logic as SW really becomes 'retarded' when the dices keeps rolling (SW:RIFTS was more overpowered than regular RIFTS, something I thought impossible).
Its in no way the HP bucket brawls of D&D. Stuff still feels very lethal (having playtested the game with pals), it just gives more of a fighting chance to assumed heroic characters.

I think what I will be doing, is grabbing Cyril stuff, mixing it together with elements from this, and playing my own version.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Plotinus on June 18, 2021, 06:01:55 AM
Hopefully it won't be too woke, but then again this is the two most woke publishers besides WotC so I won't count on it...
On a serious note, how would this be different from normal default Savage Worlds? Is it like Savage Rifts where you get 'archtypes' instead of 'classes'?

Lol, in what world is PEG the third most woke publisher in the industry? They did have that preemptive-defensive move where they ended the Civil War in Deadlands, but other than that, I really haven't seen anything ideological from them.

Anyway, I still don't get the popularity of Savage Pathfinder. What's the appeal of a hybrid of Savage Worlds and 3e D&D? I can't imagine why I would want that. It might make sense if Golarion were a great setting, but it's as boring and generic as they come. I guess Savage Pathfinder might do some good if the lessons learned from it help make the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion better when they finally get to it.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 18, 2021, 06:37:35 AM
Anyway, I still don't get the popularity of Savage Pathfinder. What's the appeal of a hybrid of Savage Worlds and 3e D&D?

I mean its not popular-yet. The appeal isn't a hybrid really. Its 96% savage worlds with Pathfinder trappings.
Its to get access to a large bestiary of iconic monsters, and just have a 'baked' ruleset of Savage Fantasy really.

Savage Pathfinder has nearly no Golarion in it at all.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 18, 2021, 07:29:41 AM
Hopefully it won't be too woke, but then again this is the two woke publishers besides WotC so I won't count on it...
On a serious note, how would this be different from normal default Savage Worlds? Is it like Savage Rifts where you get 'archtypes' instead of 'classes'?
Its not woke at all. Artwork is PF1 style (so actually fun and dynamic, instead of everybody looking like they ran out of coffee).
The only woke element is calling Races 'Ancestries', which is idiotic, but its one thing.

Difference wise: Everybody gets a class edge (as a bonus edge or they can take a background or profession edge instead). A class edge is a normal edge except slightly stronger (though usually comes with a baked in drawback).

Each class edge has a tree of edges related too it, and that edge tree is what makes up a 'class'. You can multiclass and grab other class edges, but you can only gain another class edge (as in pick a new type you lack before, not advance one you currently have) once per rank. Prestigie classes work a similar way to class edges.

The max number of wounds in one attack is limited to 4 to make combat a bit less lethal, there are new powers, and epic modifiers. Races are PF style which means a arbitrary amount of bonuses and are stronger then the default race-builder ones.

Powers recieve rebalacing in places to account for assumptions of magic items as well as other elements (such as armor being more widespread).

There are '+1 Magic Swords' but thankfully not '+2-5' magic swords, so there is some loot to be gained, but its not the christmas tree of before.
I can't help but wonder if the ancestry thing is a way to get out from under D&D's shadow. Relabeling the trait but otherwise not changing it much.

Looks interesting though.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 18, 2021, 07:33:09 AM
I can't help but wonder if the ancestry thing is a way to get out from under D&D's shadow. Relabeling the trait but otherwise not changing it much.

Looks interesting though.

Its the same way in 5e as well. Its more a idiotic modern politics thing.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Abraxus on June 18, 2021, 07:54:41 AM
First Rifts now Pathfinder good on Pinnacle to try and get more popular and profitable IPS converted to Savage Worlds. It’s a win-win for them.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 18, 2021, 08:50:23 AM
Hopefully it won't be too woke, but then again this is the two most woke publishers besides WotC so I won't count on it...
On a serious note, how would this be different from normal default Savage Worlds? Is it like Savage Rifts where you get 'archtypes' instead of 'classes'?

Wait, so it's by Baizuo & Shitty Hat?
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Jame Rowe on June 18, 2021, 10:04:17 AM
Hopefully it won't be too woke, but then again this is the two most woke publishers besides WotC so I won't count on it...
On a serious note, how would this be different from normal default Savage Worlds? Is it like Savage Rifts where you get 'archtypes' instead of 'classes'?

Lol, in what world is PEG the third most woke publisher in the industry? They did have that preemptive-defensive move where they ended the Civil War in Deadlands, but other than that, I really haven't seen anything ideological from them.

Anyway, I still don't get the popularity of Savage Pathfinder. What's the appeal of a hybrid of Savage Worlds and 3e D&D? I can't imagine why I would want that. It might make sense if Golarion were a great setting, but it's as boring and generic as they come. I guess Savage Pathfinder might do some good if the lessons learned from it help make the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion better when they finally get to it.

I hear that the only reason PEG got rid of the CSA was because it was attracting the really reactionary pro-CSA, white supremacist crowd, which the publisher didn't like. So make of it what you will.

And a member of my Savage Worlds group said the same thing about Savage Pathfinder. But to each thrir own, I think they can be a good fit.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: oggsmash on June 18, 2021, 10:20:16 AM
Hopefully it won't be too woke, but then again this is the two most woke publishers besides WotC so I won't count on it...
On a serious note, how would this be different from normal default Savage Worlds? Is it like Savage Rifts where you get 'archtypes' instead of 'classes'?

Lol, in what world is PEG the third most woke publisher in the industry? They did have that preemptive-defensive move where they ended the Civil War in Deadlands, but other than that, I really haven't seen anything ideological from them.

Anyway, I still don't get the popularity of Savage Pathfinder. What's the appeal of a hybrid of Savage Worlds and 3e D&D? I can't imagine why I would want that. It might make sense if Golarion were a great setting, but it's as boring and generic as they come. I guess Savage Pathfinder might do some good if the lessons learned from it help make the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion better when they finally get to it.

I hear that the only reason PEG got rid of the CSA was because it was attracting the really reactionary pro-CSA, white supremacist crowd, which the publisher didn't like. So make of it what you will.

And a member of my Savage Worlds group said the same thing about Savage Pathfinder. But to each thrir own, I think they can be a good fit.

   Have to laugh at there being a "crowd" of White supremacists.  I could see people identifying in some way to a fantasy version of the confederacy.   I think they made the switch because they were being assumed to he white supremacists because they implied that the confederacy could in any way make a stalemate of a war in a fantasy environment.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: oggsmash on June 18, 2021, 10:29:14 AM
I am interested in this as well though.  I want a print book, and have been checking their site to see when it rolls out.  Any kickstarter backers on here who have the print book in hands yet?
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Jame Rowe on June 18, 2021, 02:03:35 PM
Hopefully it won't be too woke, but then again this is the two most woke publishers besides WotC so I won't count on it...
On a serious note, how would this be different from normal default Savage Worlds? Is it like Savage Rifts where you get 'archtypes' instead of 'classes'?

Lol, in what world is PEG the third most woke publisher in the industry? They did have that preemptive-defensive move where they ended the Civil War in Deadlands, but other than that, I really haven't seen anything ideological from them.

Anyway, I still don't get the popularity of Savage Pathfinder. What's the appeal of a hybrid of Savage Worlds and 3e D&D? I can't imagine why I would want that. It might make sense if Golarion were a great setting, but it's as boring and generic as they come. I guess Savage Pathfinder might do some good if the lessons learned from it help make the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion better when they finally get to it.

I hear that the only reason PEG got rid of the CSA was because it was attracting the really reactionary pro-CSA, white supremacist crowd, which the publisher didn't like. So make of it what you will.

And a member of my Savage Worlds group said the same thing about Savage Pathfinder. But to each thrir own, I think they can be a good fit.

   Have to laugh at there being a "crowd" of White supremacists.  I could see people identifying in some way to a fantasy version of the confederacy.   I think they made the switch because they were being assumed to he white supremacists because they implied that the confederacy could in any way make a stalemate of a war in a fantasy environment.

I think you missed the point, which is:

Deadlands made a fantasy CSA which survived the war. A number of supremacists tried to use it to justify their superiority despite the fictional version of the CSA freeing their slaves and becoming less racist (yes, likely neither would have happened in the real world). PEG removed the CSA's survival to distance themselves from the supremacists, not to be woke.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Jame Rowe on June 18, 2021, 02:04:20 PM
I am interested in this as well though.  I want a print book, and have been checking their site to see when it rolls out.  Any kickstarter backers on here who have the print book in hands yet?

If I understand correctly, it should be ready around September.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 18, 2021, 02:28:39 PM
Deadlands made a fantasy CSA which survived the war. A number of supremacists tried to use it to justify their superiority despite the fictional version of the CSA freeing their slaves and becoming less racist (yes, likely neither would have happened in the real world). PEG removed the CSA's survival to distance themselves from the supremacists, not to be woke.
Thats cowardly as fuck though. And a cowardice thats rooted in the stupid principles of social justice.

'Some guys are misapropriating a creation - smash the creation'
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: oggsmash on June 18, 2021, 04:11:08 PM
Hopefully it won't be too woke, but then again this is the two most woke publishers besides WotC so I won't count on it...
On a serious note, how would this be different from normal default Savage Worlds? Is it like Savage Rifts where you get 'archtypes' instead of 'classes'?

Lol, in what world is PEG the third most woke publisher in the industry? They did have that preemptive-defensive move where they ended the Civil War in Deadlands, but other than that, I really haven't seen anything ideological from them.

Anyway, I still don't get the popularity of Savage Pathfinder. What's the appeal of a hybrid of Savage Worlds and 3e D&D? I can't imagine why I would want that. It might make sense if Golarion were a great setting, but it's as boring and generic as they come. I guess Savage Pathfinder might do some good if the lessons learned from it help make the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion better when they finally get to it.

I hear that the only reason PEG got rid of the CSA was because it was attracting the really reactionary pro-CSA, white supremacist crowd, which the publisher didn't like. So make of it what you will.

And a member of my Savage Worlds group said the same thing about Savage Pathfinder. But to each thrir own, I think they can be a good fit.

   Have to laugh at there being a "crowd" of White supremacists.  I could see people identifying in some way to a fantasy version of the confederacy.   I think they made the switch because they were being assumed to he white supremacists because they implied that the confederacy could in any way make a stalemate of a war in a fantasy environment.

I think you missed the point, which is:

Deadlands made a fantasy CSA which survived the war. A number of supremacists tried to use it to justify their superiority despite the fictional version of the CSA freeing their slaves and becoming less racist (yes, likely neither would have happened in the real world). PEG removed the CSA's survival to distance themselves from the supremacists, not to be woke.

  I think you missed my point, saying "crowd" which was likely 6 guys.   As for what would have happened in the real world, I think it is likely the CSA would have freed slaves.   I do doubt they would have been less racist, and likely would have sent the freed slaves to Africa.   The entire western world freed their slaves, so I have no doubt the CSA would have done the same, trade pressure alone would have been the likely reason.  But yeah, certainly wouldnt be less racist.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Jaeger on June 18, 2021, 04:21:47 PM
...
I hear that the only reason PEG got rid of the CSA was because it was attracting the really reactionary pro-CSA, white supremacist crowd, which the publisher didn't like. So make of it what you will.
...
Deadlands made a fantasy CSA which survived the war. A number of supremacists tried to use it to justify their superiority despite the fictional version of the CSA freeing their slaves and becoming less racist (yes, likely neither would have happened in the real world). PEG removed the CSA's survival to distance themselves from the supremacists, not to be woke.


WTF!?

I think the idea of a CSA that survived the war is stupid (especially Deadlands’s version), and shows a lack of historical understanding, but I digress…

What he says:

...
  I think you missed my point, saying "crowd" which was likely 6 guys.

Exactly.

He changed it all because of six dudes. If that many.

Four of which were likely FBI undercover agents.

ROTFL.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: 234ne on June 18, 2021, 04:39:08 PM
Deadlands made a fantasy CSA which survived the war. A number of supremacists tried to use it to justify their superiority despite the fictional version of the CSA freeing their slaves and becoming less racist (yes, likely neither would have happened in the real world). PEG removed the CSA's survival to distance themselves from the supremacists, not to be woke.
Thats cowardly as fuck though. And a cowardice thats rooted in the stupid principles of social justice.

'Some guys are misapropriating a creation - smash the creation'

That's the thing. I mean there were actually decent creative reasons why Hensley removed the CSA, as they were kinda of a big thorn of contradiction that you needed a lot of steps of disbelief to ignore (i.e. How would a slave society do a complete 180, even with magic and demons, in less than a generation? I guess with desperation, but you still need some disbelief). Also I agree that it didn't add much to setting, in comparison to the other more fantastical factions.

On the other hand, removal of the CSA as it makes people uncomfortable to roleplay (even citing, "Imagine the GM having to roleplay those voices. That's not fun. That's not what our game's about. It's not what we *want* our game to be about") feels like a cop-out of trouble from both white supremacist and SJWs.

       
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 18, 2021, 04:51:31 PM
Why speculate about it when you can read Shanes own words right here.

Quote
The decision for the CSA to fall in the Deadlands timeline after 1871 (1865 in the real world) is mine and mine alone. I created the world, I run the world with the help of some excellent people, and I know where it’s heading.

I’m a fiscal conservative and social liberal, have an MA in Military History, and am well-versed in the Civil War, the West, and the 19th century in general. I stand by the original decision to use the war to create the fear and terror of Deadlands (the same theme we explore in our Weird Wars line), and I stand by the decision now to change course.

Here’s why. Having characters loyal to the CSA…not just “Southerners” but actual loyalists to the cause, even if anti-slavery but loyal for some reason, can be *incredibly* uncomfortable for others at the table. Imagine the GM having to roleplay those voices. That’s not fun. That’s not what our game’s about. We want you to laugh and smile and roll Aces and get excited about your next session. And if you and your group want to explore heavier themes, go for it! But that’s something you and your friends can handle better than we can do in print where we deal with players and Marshals all over the world.

Feedback is important to me, I do listen, and I do care what all of you think about Deadlands. But the decisions are mine, the world is mine, and it will stay that way until I die. I know what it is, what it stands for, and where I want it to go.

Deadlands is spaghetti Western with horror. It’s cowboys and zombies. That’s the heart and soul of the Weird West. Everything else is background, real or imagined, cool or mundane.

So what about the story and history of Deadlands? How will the Last War in Hell on Earth start? We answered those questions internally a long time ago, and are excited to share them with you when the time comes.

The end of the Civil War 13 years prior to the current timeline still carries all the weight it did before. Heroes can be veterans of either side, harbor resentments, reminiscence about their experience at Gettysburg, and so on.

Everything up to the Battle of Washington (a huge steampunk battle in the world of Deadlands) stays the same. Not much happened after that in the official timeline anyway.

The Agents and Texas Rangers have been working together for a while under the Twilight Protocol, and they still do in the new edition (and fight with each other just like today’s government agencies).

The Great Rail Wars still happened just as it did before… it’s just the Union offering the contract rather than the Union and the CSA.

The Servitor series happens just as in those four EPIC Plot Point Campaigns.

Doomtown rose, fell, rose, fell, and well…it’s Doomtown. It never really dies!

Honestly, we think even the most dedicated fan won’t even notice the difference. We haven’t in our playtests, writings, and reviews.

Maybe you’ll agree. Maybe you won’t. That’s okay. We’re doing it anyway.

We’ve said everything we care to say on the issue, so our efforts from here forward are focused on making the best game and worlds we know how to make. If they don’t fit your tastes, that’s okay. We’re all lucky to live in a golden age of gaming right now and you have hundreds of choices. I’m very happy to see any of my friends at other companies get your business and for you to find whatever game, company, or system makes YOU and your friends happy. Truly.

Thanks again for reading, friends, and I hope to see you in the Weird West for one more ride!

Savage Worlds is about tropes, it's not supposed to be realistic. That said it's part of the larger in-game narrative they're creating for their Morgana Effect which is going to effect not just Deadlands, but some of their other gamelines as well.

For me? Meh. I'll still have CSA stuff in my game when I run it. I'm not a big fan of the Deadlands metaplot anyhow.

As for Savage Pathfinder - it's rock solid. I've been saying Savage Worlds does D&D fantasy better than D&D. Literally none of the problems that have plagued D&D in various amounts are an issue in Savage Worlds. What's better, since Savage Worlds can scale up to insane levels of power - you can lift most if not all the rules you want from Savage Rifts and use them for extreme high-level play without missing a beat. Something D&D in any incarnation would be an insane struggle by comparison.

I own all the current PDF's it's close to final drafts (I've kept each iteration). I'm happy to field any questions.

1) No their version of Golarion is not woke *at all* in the current draft. Frankly I'm take it or leave it on the setting, my goal is to convert all my 1e and 2e D&D material over. Greybox Realms, Spelljammer, Kara-Tur etc. Savage Pathfinder has done 95% of the work for us.

The greatness of Savage Pathfinder is not that it's Pathfinder. It's that now Savage Worlds will have a complete lineup of rules that kicks the door down for D&D style fantasy from top-to-bottom and beyond because the chassis scales WAY past what D&D of any edition can pull off easily.

 
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: 234ne on June 18, 2021, 04:56:16 PM
I am interested in this as well though.  I want a print book, and have been checking their site to see when it rolls out.  Any kickstarter backers on here who have the print book in hands yet?

If I understand correctly, it should be ready around September.

It looks $50ish USD for the core, and around $30ish for the Companion and Bestiary? I am interested in the core, but arguing whether I actually need the companion or bestiary as I already have pathfinder books and other SW books.


The greatness of Savage Pathfinder is not that it's Pathfinder. It's that now Savage Worlds will have a complete lineup of rules that kicks the door down for D&D style fantasy from top-to-bottom and beyond because the chassis scales WAY past what D&D of any edition can pull off easily.
 

I have to admit a part of me do want slap my past-self for buying those useless SW Fantasy Companion, rather than investing into a complete setting deals to reverse engineer. 
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 18, 2021, 04:58:06 PM
On the other hand, removal of the CSA as it makes people uncomfortable to roleplay (even citing, "Imagine the GM having to roleplay those voices. That's not fun. That's not what our game's about. It's not what we *want* our game to be about") feels like a cop-out of trouble from both white supremacist and SJWs.
   

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The significant takeaway from his own words is: he's a fiscal conservative. He's making a game product to be sold and he's pretty consistent about not trying to offend anyone. Deadlands, regardless of what anyone might feel personally about the CSA, requires a business call.

The facts are - yes the CSA would have been destroyed in the events of Deadlands with their metaplot. So it does make sense since they're planning on taking that metaplot all the way back to the dark ages where they're going to be doing other gamelines. And so it only make this a natural point to make that change.

No matter what - if the CSA gets removed... you know years after the fact in real life it collapsed is an issue for anyone... I simply don't know what to tell you. These are strange times, but that said, I don't believe Shane or anyone at PEG is overtly Woke. They're a family business trying to make cool games.

I'm still using the CSA in my games, as I'm not a fan of metaplots in general so the events of Deadlands never really occurred as they do in the game for me. /shrug.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 18, 2021, 05:02:10 PM
I am interested in this as well though.  I want a print book, and have been checking their site to see when it rolls out.  Any kickstarter backers on here who have the print book in hands yet?

If I understand correctly, it should be ready around September.

It looks $50ish USD for the core, and around $30ish for the Companion and Bestiary? I am interested in the core, but arguing whether I actually need the companion or bestiary as I already have pathfinder books and other SW books.


The greatness of Savage Pathfinder is not that it's Pathfinder. It's that now Savage Worlds will have a complete lineup of rules that kicks the door down for D&D style fantasy from top-to-bottom and beyond because the chassis scales WAY past what D&D of any edition can pull off easily.
 

I have to admit a part of me do want slap my past-self for buying those useless SW Fantasy Companion, rather than investing into a complete setting deals to reverse engineer.

The Bestiary is worth it imo. Also I TOTALLY agree with you on the Fantasy Companion. BUT... it was never a thing where the Fantasy Companion was supposed to be anything other than a setting-neutral set of rules to modify the original core.

The new Fantasy Companion that's currently in the pipeline is not going to be a retread of the Savage Pathfinder rules, according to PEG. Nor is it going to be a re-hash of the SWADE core. It's going to be it's own thing that can be used with any of their Savage Worlds books. If they pull it off well, it'll be a real great addition.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 18, 2021, 05:12:20 PM
For anyone that wants to see the Bestiary TOC

(https://i.imgur.com/rQdNtKy.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/FcQiWLa.png)
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 18, 2021, 05:21:51 PM
I should add this too... Drow are evil. So take of that what you will.

(https://i.imgur.com/mTwZzDi.png)
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Jaeger on June 18, 2021, 05:49:57 PM
On the other hand, removal of the CSA as it makes people uncomfortable to roleplay (even citing, "Imagine the GM having to roleplay those voices. That's not fun. That's not what our game's about. It's not what we *want* our game to be about") feels like a cop-out of trouble from both white supremacist and SJWs.
   

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The significant takeaway from his own words is: he's a fiscal conservative. He's making a game product to be sold and he's pretty consistent about not trying to offend anyone. Deadlands, regardless of what anyone might feel personally about the CSA, requires a business call.
...

"I'm a fiscal conservative" = tap-dancing fence sitter trying to have it both ways.

(IMHO CSA surviving the war is still dumb, and he should get a refund on his MA in Military history degree...)


I would bet that he probably really fears that the SJW wokemob can affect his lively-hood over such nonsense though.

His real name is known, and these retards do go to peoples houses when they feel that they are responsible for badwrongthink.

So while I think that he comes across as a lukewarm worm, I can see why he would make the changes he has; especially if he has a family.



As for Savage Pathfinder - it's rock solid. I've been saying Savage Worlds does D&D fantasy better than D&D. Literally none of the problems that have plagued D&D in various amounts are an issue in Savage Worlds. What's better, since Savage Worlds can scale up to insane levels of power - you can lift most if not all the rules you want from Savage Rifts and use them for extreme high-level play without missing a beat. Something D&D in any incarnation would be an insane struggle by comparison.

I am actually pro savage worlds pathfinder edition...

I just have to get this out of the way first:  Savage Worlds Fucking Sucks.

Despite that fact that my hate of SW as a system knows no limit. I think Savage Pathfinder is good for the hobby.

D&D does have math scaling issues in every edition. And I think that is is good for people to see that Fantasy can be done with systems that are not D&D or D&D's clone.

IMHO one of the worst things to happen for system diversity in the hobby is for the perennial #2 RPG to be a D&D clone.

At least when World of Darkness was the perennial #2 people saw that there were not only other playable systems, but different genre's of RPG to play in as well. On the shelves, in the hobby shops. The second thing they would see.

Now it is just Furry D&D, then woke D&D. Then the flavor of the quarter for everything else.

Oh, and CoC is still around...

It's a shame that WoD and Shadowrun mismanaged themselves into has-been status. And that GW never took WHFRP seriously.  The hobby was better off when they were a steady presence.

At least Savage Pathfinder might give people who would otherwise be disinclined a reason to try the dreaded "different system" that they say they don't have time for.


Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: 234ne on June 18, 2021, 06:19:38 PM

I just have to get this out of the way first:  Savage Worlds Fucking Sucks.

I understand, I also have moments of love and hate with this system. As I said earlier, it becomes retarded when the dice keeps on rolling, I'm certain upgrading a skill to d6 from d4 is a downgrade till you reach d8, and sometimes it feels like a washed down version of the haydays of WEG; TORG and D6. But that's just an old grog's opinion.


It's a shame that WoD and Shadowrun mismanaged themselves into has-been status. And that GW never took WHFRP seriously.


Add FFG to the hit-list suicide-list :'(
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Jaeger on June 18, 2021, 07:38:44 PM
...
I understand, I also have moments of love and hate with this system. As I said earlier, it becomes retarded when the dice keeps on rolling, I'm certain upgrading a skill to d6 from d4 is a downgrade till you reach d8, and sometimes it feels like a washed down version of the haydays of WEG; TORG and D6. But that's just an old grog's opinion.

I completely bounced off of the die mechanic and wounding mechanic when I played.

It literally has a glaring in-your-face design flaw in the die mechanic.

I had some SW apologist explain to me on another forum that it's not a big deal because Bennies blah, blah, blah...

Yeah, so your meta mechanic isn't there so much as a bonus to make PC's more heroic as it is to smooth out your whacked ass die and wounding mechanics...

But lots of people seem to like it anyway.



Add FFG to the hit-list suicide-list :'(


FFG doomed themselves with their specialty dice.

They were focused on cashing in on certain IP.

They made a WHFRP and Star Wars games that had overly fiddly rules, with overly fiddly dice.

The money train ended when their licenses ended.

Nobody gave a fuck about their whacked ass specialty die mechanic.

The same thing will happen with legend of the 5 rings. A game that they easily could have used normal dice on. But nooooo....



Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Valatar on June 18, 2021, 10:25:13 PM
Deadlands never portrayed the CSA surviving the war so much as the war being put on indefinite hold because literal Hell had been unleashed on the southwest.  That's what irks me about the revised Deadlands timeline, not that the Confederacy would lose, because pretty obviously the Union had the upper hand from day one, but that they'd be stupid enough to decide to pick another fight when there were demons crawling all over the place.  Especially because in the original Deadlands timeline they'd already abolished slavery, so what even was left to make them decide to do a suicide attack on DC?

In reality, the CSA had already abolished the importation of new slaves before it fell, I have no idea whether as a legitimate endeavor to wean their industries off of slave labor or as a PR ploy to try to make nice with foreign powers.  But even if it had survived as an independent country, I can't imagine slavery having held out there for much longer.  The tide was already turned against it.  Even without importing new slaves there was more than enough of a slave population to sustain itself indefinitely, but financial pressure from other countries and general public opinion would've put an end to it eventually.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 19, 2021, 12:59:15 AM
The maths behind SW is stronger then people give it credit for.

A d6 only feels worse then a d4. It isn’t. It succeeds and raises more on avarage, and results in less critical failures.

I really wonder why anybody thinks otherwise in the age of anydice.

Edit:
And vampires and monsters is OK, but an alternate reality nicer confederacy cannot be even allowed to be theoretically entertained.
Thats messed up.

This is based on intellectual cowardice.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 19, 2021, 02:27:23 AM

I just have to get this out of the way first:  Savage Worlds Fucking Sucks.

I understand, I also have moments of love and hate with this system. As I said earlier, it becomes retarded when the dice keeps on rolling, I'm certain upgrading a skill to d6 from d4 is a downgrade till you reach d8, and sometimes it feels like a washed down version of the haydays of WEG; TORG and D6. But that's just an old grog's opinion.



It's a shame that WoD and Shadowrun mismanaged themselves into has-been status. And that GW never took WHFRP seriously.


Add FFG to the hit-list suicide-list :'(

These are not my quotes. Please fix your post.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 19, 2021, 02:54:57 AM
Deadlands is supposed to be horror game set during the latter part of the Civil War. It's not a treatise or some authoritarian scholarly work of alt-History. No the CSA weren't all evil bastards. They were people. Everyone on this forum generally understands this. No one around here is saying otherwise. Why is this even a discussion point on a Savage Worlds Pathfinder thread?

It's a game people, not a purity test.

Let's save the attacks for those that really deserve it, shall we? And raise the bar a little higher. Otherwise we're never getting any good game-discussion. We're become "them" by acting according to their standards and actions. We're "us" by choice, so we get to define ourselves a little more sensibly.

Savage Worlds Maths - the only real math discrepancy is between d6 and d8 where because of the exploding dice there is a slight chance that a d6 can actually be better over time.

There is a fantastically easy method to fix this. Fudge Dice. Adding 2 Fudge dice to your rolls that smooths out the curve.

From Zadmar - with no Fudge dice.
(https://i.imgur.com/G6zsc4I.png)

With One Fudge Die
(https://i.imgur.com/b4bFf3O.png)

With Two Fudge Dice
(https://i.imgur.com/kKswLfI.png)

I let my players just choose if they wanna add Fudge dice to their roll.

As for the exploding dice - yep, that's part of the game. That's why it's great for pulp and cinematic adventures. You can make someone's head explode with throwing a thumbtack at them. Naturally there are rules you can tune the game up or down with to prevent such crazy shit. In Savage Pathfinder for example one of the setting rules is that you can't do more 4 Wounds in a single attack.

If you want it grittier - you can simply remove this rule. If you want it Grimdark you can make it so that every wound taken you can make your PC's roll on the Injury Table... which is nasty shit.

The beauty of Savage Worlds is it is *TRIVIALLY* easy to tune up or down however you prefer it to get the tone and feel you want in your game.

If you like D&D-style Bullet-Sponginess - running Savage Pathfinder with its bitch-ass 4-Wound Maximum rule will do your just fine. Since Size increases Wound Levels for Monsters... you'll get all the Bullet-Sponge you can handle. Me? I like my meat red. Fuck that cap. And if I'm running Conan-style brutal-ass mode you're rolling on the Injury Table and pray you don't Snake-Eyes (you get castrated).

Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 19, 2021, 03:18:36 AM

I completely bounced off of the die mechanic and wounding mechanic when I played.

It literally has a glaring in-your-face design flaw in the die mechanic.

It's literally the difference of less than a couple of percent at two target numbers. This is less than the deviation of +1 on any given D&D d20 roll. Easily fixed (if it matters that much).

Yeah, so your meta mechanic isn't there so much as a bonus to make PC's more heroic as it is to smooth out your whacked ass die and wounding mechanics...

But lots of people seem to like it anyway.

I'm not trying to convince you to give it another try (though I think you should) - I'm just addressing some of your claims. The meta-mechanic (Bennies) aren't there to smooth out the die and wound mechanics.

1) The Die mechanic stands on its own. A deviation 1.5% in very specific circumstances at most, is inconsequential in pretty much any RPG I can imagine. And I play lots of games from d20, to d6 to d100. That difference is less than most circumstantial bonuses or penalties that a GM can give on any roll. And there is a simple solution - Fudge dice.

2) The Wound mechanics exist as a direct abstraction to the fact you should be *avoiding* damage. Unlike D&D which oddly abstracts Armor as making you harder to hit, vs. absorbing damage, it splits the difference with the abstraction of HP. Savage Worlds gives characters a solid avoidance derived stat based on their skill in melee. Armor absorbs damage and goes directly to the character's Toughness rating which if an attacker can bypass that - you'll take actual damage. People are frail when it comes to life-and-death combat, as I'm sure you know. The abstraction of Savage Worlds combat is both cinematic and kinetic. If you take damage - you're *taking it squarely in the ass* - there is no HP Bullet Sponge total for being 10th level when the Thief backstabs you. Your only recourse is to Soak it, or take it. Soaking it requires a Benny. It's a hail-mary, almost a Saving Throw if you will. It's not a flaw in the mechanics. It makes combat more viceral than trading HP-meter losses like in a Streetfighter game.

3) Having said all this - there are iterations of D&D d20 that have had ALL of these features in one form or another - Fantasy Craft, Star Wars d20, and Mutants and Masterminds off the top of my head. All of which I think are some of the better renditions of d20. Too bad 5e didn't go that route.


FFG doomed themselves with their specialty dice.

They were focused on cashing in on certain IP.

They made a WHFRP and Star Wars games that had overly fiddly rules, with overly fiddly dice.

The money train ended when their licenses ended.

They still have the license. And while I highly disliked their WHFRP, I came to love their Star Wars games despite my own well documented skepticism on this forum... along with my shock at how much I ended up liking it, so much so I own the entirety of all three lines which sit solidly on my shelves next to my WEG d6 books.

The dice... yes they're a total fucking gimmick. But oddly, they clicked for my group. You can play with normal dice, it's just a pain in the ass to convert unless you get used to it. We're all professionals with lots of disposable income... we caved and bought the dice, it made for better gaming. Fuck that app.

While they still have the license (Asmodee in France) - they *say* they're going to do more content. I honestly don't care if they do more. Simply because there is no real need. They have pretty much captured the entirety of the Star Wars universe between all three lines. if they shut it down tonight, it wouldn't matter to me.

Nobody gave a fuck about their whacked ass specialty die mechanic.

The same thing will happen with legend of the 5 rings. A game that they easily could have used normal dice on. But nooooo....

Despite my extreme pleasure running their Star Wars game, I can only go so far. I fully admit the reasons why, despite me loving their Star Wars game, I never got into Lot5R is precisely because I didn't want to do the dice-gimmick. Once is enough for me. And their Star Wars stuff is pure meat-and-potatoes, no SJR fuckery, pretty damn good adventures (which is a non-thing for me since I do my own content).

But again, it's purely my opinion.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: 234ne on June 19, 2021, 03:22:36 AM

I just have to get this out of the way first:  Savage Worlds Fucking Sucks.

I understand, I also have moments of love and hate with this system. As I said earlier, it becomes retarded when the dice keeps on rolling, I'm certain upgrading a skill to d6 from d4 is a downgrade till you reach d8, and sometimes it feels like a washed down version of the haydays of WEG; TORG and D6. But that's just an old grog's opinion.



It's a shame that WoD and Shadowrun mismanaged themselves into has-been status. And that GW never took WHFRP seriously.


Add FFG to the hit-list suicide-list :'(

These are not my quotes. Please fix your post.

Whoops sorry mate.
Edit: Fixed it on this post too.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 19, 2021, 03:27:26 AM
Savage Worlds Maths - the only real math discrepancy is between d6 and d8 where because of the exploding dice there is a slight chance that a d6 can actually be better over time.
The very specific disperancy is a 1.4% chance less likely to ace once....Thats it. A d8 still has a higher chance of regular success, and less likely to critically fail (that really bad thing you can't roll out of with a benny). A d8 still has a higher chance of acing twice then a d6.

Thats against a target number of 4 only. With any sort of penalty (which is immensly common), the advantage immediatly goes back to the d8.
And your right the d6 has a slight (less then 2%) disadvantage against a target number of 6 compared to a d4. Still aces more, and crit fails less.

Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 19, 2021, 03:32:32 AM
Savage Worlds Maths - the only real math discrepancy is between d6 and d8 where because of the exploding dice there is a slight chance that a d6 can actually be better over time.
The very specific disperancy is a 1.4% chance less likely to ace once....Thats it. A d8 still has a higher chance of regular success, and less likely to critically fail (that really bad thing you can't roll out of with a benny). A d8 still has a higher chance of acing twice then a d6.

Thats against a target number of 4 only. With any sort of penalty (which is immensly common), the advantage immediatly goes back to the d8.
And your right the d6 has a slight (less then 2%) disadvantage against a target number of 6 compared to a d4. Still aces more, and crit fails less.

I don't wanna come off like I'm attacking Jaeger (or anyone else) that is concerned with the Math. It's INSANELY small, and I know the abstractions of D&D are far worse simply by dint of the loosey-goosey use of Advantage. It's *fine*. Yet I have my own players who have come to love Savage Worlds, also be concerned with the d6 vs d8 issue simply because we've seen those crazy rolls which while statistically had nothing to do with the real issue. It appears that way most because it most happens due to the fact that d6 and d8s are rolled more typically over the procession of a campaign.

the Fudge Dice really soothed the irritation that existed in everyone's head. Plus they love the fact they get to roll more dice - since it makes them feel like they're padding their chances more... (even though they're not).

It's all headgames, baby.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 19, 2021, 03:53:17 AM
the Fudge Dice
What are fudge dice?

Quote
It's all headgames, baby.
I think how something FEELS is also important to a game experience. I feel advantage/ disadvantage is a mediocre mechanic (I find that it does WAY too much work in D&D 5e, its ludicrist that its treated as this massive mathmatic marvel), but it feels nice.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Pat on June 19, 2021, 08:05:24 AM
the Fudge Dice
What are fudge dice?

d6's marked +, +, (blank), (blank), -, -. Which translates into equal chances of 1, 0, and -1.

Steffan O'Sullivan came up with them because he wanted a smoother bell curve. Fudge uses 4dF as its core mechanic.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 19, 2021, 08:58:50 AM
d6's marked +, +, (blank), (blank), -, -. Which translates into equal chances of 1, 0, and -1.

Steffan O'Sullivan came up with them because he wanted a smoother bell curve. Fudge uses 4dF as its core mechanic.

I know about those (D3s effectively), but how do they translate into the charts that tenbones put up?
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: HappyDaze on June 19, 2021, 09:23:28 AM
d6's marked +, +, (blank), (blank), -, -. Which translates into equal chances of 1, 0, and -1.

Steffan O'Sullivan came up with them because he wanted a smoother bell curve. Fudge uses 4dF as its core mechanic.

I know about those (D3s effectively), but how do they translate into the charts that tenbones put up?
I too am curious to know how dice that have a 0 average result will adjust the probabilities of the results of the other dice. Are the chances of getting a 20 on 1d20 + 2dF any different than getting a 20 on just 1d20?
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: oggsmash on June 19, 2021, 10:36:59 AM
  I will be picking up all the books I think, the bestiary alone looks very good from that table of contents.  Probably never use the setting, but I am a Completion freak.  Now, if someone would be nice enough to make a Rappan Athuk version for SW Pathfinder, and I can finally run that damned mega dungeon.  Though a simple bestiary, and otherwise full conversion version of the game would make me running the pathfinder RA conversion much easier.

   The stuff with CSA when I first heard about it did raise my eyebrows.  Once I looked into it, I figured Shane has made (IMO) a lot of good calls, so removing something that can only cause him grief did not bother me.  I have enjoyed SW Rifts and have run a few sessions of fantasy with SW.  I am keen to give my Conan or Fallout (well sort of, it turns out the "earth" of fallout is a death world in 40k) campaign a conversion ( I have one gamer who we get to explain GURPS to every session.  I start to feel bad for him when my 10 year old is explaining the rules to him, as a grown man.  Oddly he has full grasp of SW and D&D and even Mutant Epoch, which puzzles me) and see how it works out. 

   
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: oggsmash on June 19, 2021, 10:48:22 AM
...
I understand, I also have moments of love and hate with this system. As I said earlier, it becomes retarded when the dice keeps on rolling, I'm certain upgrading a skill to d6 from d4 is a downgrade till you reach d8, and sometimes it feels like a washed down version of the haydays of WEG; TORG and D6. But that's just an old grog's opinion.

I completely bounced off of the die mechanic and wounding mechanic when I played.

It literally has a glaring in-your-face design flaw in the die mechanic.

I had some SW apologist explain to me on another forum that it's not a big deal because Bennies blah, blah, blah...

Yeah, so your meta mechanic isn't there so much as a bonus to make PC's more heroic as it is to smooth out your whacked ass die and wounding mechanics...

But lots of people seem to like it anyway.



Add FFG to the hit-list suicide-list :'(


FFG doomed themselves with their specialty dice.

They were focused on cashing in on certain IP.

They made a WHFRP and Star Wars games that had overly fiddly rules, with overly fiddly dice.

The money train ended when their licenses ended.

Nobody gave a fuck about their whacked ass specialty die mechanic.

The same thing will happen with legend of the 5 rings. A game that they easily could have used normal dice on. But nooooo....

  I had this same feeling on reading SW.  I finally ran it for group a few years ago, and I was very surprised.  They enjoyed it a great deal, and it seemed to add a level of excitement that really was harder to come by in some other games.  Maybe I need to run more games (I have run maybe 8 or so sessions) to see more holes appearing, but right now it definitely seems to hold for its purpose (heroic pulp style games, i think it does gritty ok as well.. I tend to prefer GURPS for that).
 
    That said, it can be hard to assess challenges for encounters.  I had one encounter I expected the group to expend some resources, but not to struggle too much.  They got wiped, and I used zero bennies.  The group made new characters and returned to the same dungeon.  Ran through most of it and then in the boss fight, destroyed him badly.  Aces were part of it, but they also used much better tactics as well.   Tactics and efficient use of magic in a fantasy setting is an extreme force multiplier in SW.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 19, 2021, 03:41:46 PM
d6's marked +, +, (blank), (blank), -, -. Which translates into equal chances of 1, 0, and -1.

Steffan O'Sullivan came up with them because he wanted a smoother bell curve. Fudge uses 4dF as its core mechanic.

I know about those (D3s effectively), but how do they translate into the charts that tenbones put up?
I too am curious to know how dice that have a 0 average result will adjust the probabilities of the results of the other dice. Are the chances of getting a 20 on 1d20 + 2dF any different than getting a 20 on just 1d20?

They are run through a simulation of thousands of rolls. Zadmar builds his own apps to test all the Savage Worlds rules (as he does his own design-work for the system).

I believe it's a probability aggregate based on the fact we're talking about literally splitting a 1.4% difference. Two Fudge dice apparently in his simulations make up that difference.

Like I said - it's totally optional at my table. And it gives me a chance to use the stack of Fudge dice I have *for once* LOL. On any given roll my players can choose to roll up to 2 Fudge dice with any Trait check. Or not. Ironically, even my players that say they don't care about that anomaly,  all choose to roll the extra Fudge dice.

Players just love rolling those extra dice.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Jaeger on June 19, 2021, 04:50:47 PM


I don't wanna come off like I'm attacking Jaeger (or anyone else) that is concerned with the Math. It's INSANELY small, and I know the abstractions of D&D are far worse simply by dint of the loosey-goosey use of Advantage. It's *fine*. Yet I have my own players who have come to love Savage Worlds, also be concerned with the d6 vs d8 issue simply because we've seen those crazy rolls which while statistically had nothing to do with the real issue. It appears that way most because it most happens due to the fact that d6 and d8s are rolled more typically over the procession of a campaign.

It's all headgames, baby.

Oh no worries.

After all, I'm the one who lead with: Savage Worlds Fucking Sucks!

SW just ain't for me.

It's the same with how some people bounce off of die pool systems where you count "successes".
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Eirikrautha on June 19, 2021, 09:03:37 PM
They are run through a simulation of thousands of rolls. Zadmar builds his own apps to test all the Savage Worlds rules (as he does his own design-work for the system).

I believe it's a probability aggregate based on the fact we're talking about literally splitting a 1.4% difference. Two Fudge dice apparently in his simulations make up that difference.
Uhhh, "simulations" are completely statistically invalid (no matter how many times you run one).  The math of the fudge dice should be calculable, which will determine if there are any benefits to them.  But,  no matter how you program it, a result from a "simulation" is always an anecdote.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Eirikrautha on June 19, 2021, 09:15:47 PM
...
I understand, I also have moments of love and hate with this system. As I said earlier, it becomes retarded when the dice keeps on rolling, I'm certain upgrading a skill to d6 from d4 is a downgrade till you reach d8, and sometimes it feels like a washed down version of the haydays of WEG; TORG and D6. But that's just an old grog's opinion.

I completely bounced off of the die mechanic and wounding mechanic when I played.

It literally has a glaring in-your-face design flaw in the die mechanic.

I had some SW apologist explain to me on another forum that it's not a big deal because Bennies blah, blah, blah...

Yeah, so your meta mechanic isn't there so much as a bonus to make PC's more heroic as it is to smooth out your whacked ass die and wounding mechanics...

But lots of people seem to like it anyway.



Add FFG to the hit-list suicide-list :'(


FFG doomed themselves with their specialty dice.

They were focused on cashing in on certain IP.

They made a WHFRP and Star Wars games that had overly fiddly rules, with overly fiddly dice.

The money train ended when their licenses ended.

Nobody gave a fuck about their whacked ass specialty die mechanic.

The same thing will happen with legend of the 5 rings. A game that they easily could have used normal dice on. But nooooo....

Played SW:Deadlands and SWADE with my regular group for almost 9 months (maybe a little more) when we were taking a break from D&D.  The funny thing is that, despite assertions that SW isn't "bullet spongy," it played out the same way as D&D.  In D&D combats drag when you have to ablate HP with "hit, hit, hit, hit, target dies;" in SW it drags when you have "hit, no damage - didn't get through toughness; hit, no damage - didn't get through toughness; hit, no damage - didn't get through toughness; hit, no damage - didn't get through toughness; hit, a bunch of dice ace, monster killed."  Sure, the mechanic is different, but the play felt like there was no real difference.  And anyone who says bennies don't exist to balance the swingy-ness is being disingenuous at best.  It would be like playing an RPG where you flipped a coin to see which combatant died.  You'd die every other combat (on average).  Likewise, with no bennies, the first good damage roll would kill or cripple a character, no matter how powerful.  So bennies absolutely exist to give Wild Cards more survivability than ordinary enemies.  Honestly, that's basically all we used them for, because if you used all your bennies on anything else, you were risking sudden death.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Pat on June 19, 2021, 09:48:39 PM
They are run through a simulation of thousands of rolls. Zadmar builds his own apps to test all the Savage Worlds rules (as he does his own design-work for the system).

I believe it's a probability aggregate based on the fact we're talking about literally splitting a 1.4% difference. Two Fudge dice apparently in his simulations make up that difference.
Uhhh, "simulations" are completely statistically invalid (no matter how many times you run one).  The math of the fudge dice should be calculable, which will determine if there are any benefits to them.  But,  no matter how you program it, a result from a "simulation" is always an anecdote.
You might want to double check the definitions of "statistics" and "anecdote".

Simulations don't give you exact probabilities. But if the simulation doesn't contain any errors, and we can discount any weirdness with the pseudo-random number generator, both of which are fairly safe bets, for something as trivial as simulating dice rolls, they generate approximations based on a large sample set, i.e. statistics, not anecdotes.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 20, 2021, 04:24:04 AM
Uhhh, "simulations" are completely statistically invalid (no matter how many times you run one).
Unless its a probability calculation, which is also a thing. Unlike a simulation, a probability calculation is 100% accurate.

I could put this through a probability calculator to see the odds.

It would be like playing an RPG where you flipped a coin to see which combatant died.

Well unlike a coin flip, the SW rate of success and damage is actually a calculable thing. Just your experience has not been mine at all. Combat happened pretty fast.

Id say your definition of swingyness is different then mine as well. To me swingy is something reliably variant. A d20 system is pretty swingy because it has no curve. Explosive systems are pretty reliable, with moments of extreme spike. Thats different then swingy to me at least.
Anyway, your entitled to your own experience.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Eirikrautha on June 20, 2021, 10:13:37 AM
They are run through a simulation of thousands of rolls. Zadmar builds his own apps to test all the Savage Worlds rules (as he does his own design-work for the system).

I believe it's a probability aggregate based on the fact we're talking about literally splitting a 1.4% difference. Two Fudge dice apparently in his simulations make up that difference.
Uhhh, "simulations" are completely statistically invalid (no matter how many times you run one).  The math of the fudge dice should be calculable, which will determine if there are any benefits to them.  But,  no matter how you program it, a result from a "simulation" is always an anecdote.
You might want to double check the definitions of "statistics" and "anecdote".

Simulations don't give you exact probabilities. But if the simulation doesn't contain any errors, and we can discount any weirdness with the pseudo-random number generator, both of which are fairly safe bets, for something as trivial as simulating dice rolls, they generate approximations based on a large sample set, i.e. statistics, not anecdotes.
There is never a forest so thick that you can't miss it for the trees, is there?  Your linguistic pendantism aside (which is incorrect, anyway), I'll try to frame the point for you as simply as possible.  First, as the saying goes, the plural of anecdote is not data.  An anecdote is a single experience.  Data is information about a representative sample.  Hence my statement.  Multiple runs of a simulation of dice are multiple single experiences.  If the dice (or computerized representations of them) are actually fair, then by definition, and throw of the dice is truly random and disconnected from any other throw.  The key term there is "disconnected."  One throw, ten throws, ten thousand throws, it doesn't matter.  We assume, as the number of throws approaches an infinite number, the mean of those throws will approach some number, but... and pay close attention here... that is not necessarily true for ANY number of throws less than infinite.  So, while we can expect that our average will regress towards the mean with many throws of dice, that is NOT guaranteed, because each throw is disconnected from the others (see "gambler's fallacy").  So, you cannot make meaningful assertions from a "simulation" of a thousand, or ten thousand, or one million dice throws, because there is always the possibility that your sample is skewed.  Hence your throws are not "data" (part of the definition of "statistic"), they are anecdotes.  They would need to be connected to be data, which they cannot be for fair dice.

So, as I said above, the only way to determine the accurate statistics for this combination of dice is via mathematics (the limit of the mean as the number of throws approaches infinity, etc.).  So, I am not convinced by someone's "simulation" that the issues discussed above are ameliorated by the addition of fudge dice.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Eirikrautha on June 20, 2021, 10:16:54 AM
Uhhh, "simulations" are completely statistically invalid (no matter how many times you run one).
Unless its a probability calculation, which is also a thing. Unlike a simulation, a probability calculation is 100% accurate.

I could put this through a probability calculator to see the odds.

Yeah, since my very next sentence said:
The math of the fudge dice should be calculable, which will determine if there are any benefits to them.

So your approach was exactly what I suggested.  Please let us know what you find.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Pat on June 20, 2021, 11:41:50 AM
They are run through a simulation of thousands of rolls. Zadmar builds his own apps to test all the Savage Worlds rules (as he does his own design-work for the system).

I believe it's a probability aggregate based on the fact we're talking about literally splitting a 1.4% difference. Two Fudge dice apparently in his simulations make up that difference.
Uhhh, "simulations" are completely statistically invalid (no matter how many times you run one).  The math of the fudge dice should be calculable, which will determine if there are any benefits to them.  But,  no matter how you program it, a result from a "simulation" is always an anecdote.
You might want to double check the definitions of "statistics" and "anecdote".

Simulations don't give you exact probabilities. But if the simulation doesn't contain any errors, and we can discount any weirdness with the pseudo-random number generator, both of which are fairly safe bets, for something as trivial as simulating dice rolls, they generate approximations based on a large sample set, i.e. statistics, not anecdotes.
There is never a forest so thick that you can't miss it for the trees, is there?  Your linguistic pendantism aside (which is incorrect, anyway), I'll try to frame the point for you as simply as possible.  First, as the saying goes, the plural of anecdote is not data.  An anecdote is a single experience.  Data is information about a representative sample.  Hence my statement.  Multiple runs of a simulation of dice are multiple single experiences.  If the dice (or computerized representations of them) are actually fair, then by definition, and throw of the dice is truly random and disconnected from any other throw.  The key term there is "disconnected."  One throw, ten throws, ten thousand throws, it doesn't matter.  We assume, as the number of throws approaches an infinite number, the mean of those throws will approach some number, but... and pay close attention here... that is not necessarily true for ANY number of throws less than infinite.  So, while we can expect that our average will regress towards the mean with many throws of dice, that is NOT guaranteed, because each throw is disconnected from the others (see "gambler's fallacy").  So, you cannot make meaningful assertions from a "simulation" of a thousand, or ten thousand, or one million dice throws, because there is always the possibility that your sample is skewed.  Hence your throws are not "data" (part of the definition of "statistic"), they are anecdotes.  They would need to be connected to be data, which they cannot be for fair dice.

So, as I said above, the only way to determine the accurate statistics for this combination of dice is via mathematics (the limit of the mean as the number of throws approaches infinity, etc.).  So, I am not convinced by someone's "simulation" that the issues discussed above are ameliorated by the addition of fudge dice.
A pendant (with a second n) is something you wear around your neck. That's an example of being pedantic (one n). Which is the one word you probably don't want to misspell when you're trying to be pedantic.

The rest of your post is based on a misunderstanding of statistics. The whole point of a representative sample is each element is independent, not dependent. When they're dependent -- say a pseudo random number generator that's seeded based on a timestamp, and is run at the same time every day, leading to the same strings of numbers being repeated -- you end up with an unrepresentative sample. A human example is asking someone to remember how many 20s they rolled over a session instead of recording them as they're made, which will tend to result in selection bias, where people remember vividly the natural 20s made in important situations, and tend to forget them when the result didn't matter much. If you have a broad selection of unbiased results, then due to the law of large numbers, we can draw conclusions from the dataset. Sure, it's possible to roll 100 ones in a roll, or a googolplex of 1s in a row. But that's really unlikely, which is the point of statistics.

Monte Carlo methods are widely used. They don't give exact answers, but, well, nobody claimed that.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shasarak on June 20, 2021, 08:56:38 PM
First, as the saying goes, the plural of anecdote is not data.  An anecdote is a single experience.  Data is information about a representative sample.

Thats the opposite of the saying.

The plural of anecdote is data - thats how you get data, by adding up all the anecdotes.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Eirikrautha on June 20, 2021, 08:58:12 PM
First, as the saying goes, the plural of anecdote is not data.  An anecdote is a single experience.  Data is information about a representative sample.

Thats the opposite of the saying.

The plural of anecdote is data - thats how you get data, by adding up all the anecdotes.
Nope.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 20, 2021, 11:25:33 PM
They are run through a simulation of thousands of rolls. Zadmar builds his own apps to test all the Savage Worlds rules (as he does his own design-work for the system).

I believe it's a probability aggregate based on the fact we're talking about literally splitting a 1.4% difference. Two Fudge dice apparently in his simulations make up that difference.
Uhhh, "simulations" are completely statistically invalid (no matter how many times you run one).  The math of the fudge dice should be calculable, which will determine if there are any benefits to them.  But,  no matter how you program it, a result from a "simulation" is always an anecdote.

(Why do people have to spell out "uhhh" in a post?)

My response is simple: I don't care. Its there for a reason: because people have repeated the "math discrepency" for years. It really is less of an issue than the host of possible statistical glitches from the tons of +1's/-1's one can get from D&D. It's 1.4% on specific target number.

If you want to be reductionist about Fudge Dice being a net-zero on any given statistical curve - then why do they even exist? Heh. I'm not sure what to say? Don't use them? Like I said - it's an option to make people feel good.

If your point to hang on your participation in the discussion on some petty semantic thing that isn't even an issue... it says more about you than me. Carry on.

I mean... if we want we can discuss how astrophysics is just fantasy since their statistical calculations based on slivers of data with far more granularity than the probabilities of Fudge dice must be hocus-pocus too. This seems like a silly hill to die on in a Savage Pathfinder thread.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Eirikrautha on June 21, 2021, 08:00:40 AM
They are run through a simulation of thousands of rolls. Zadmar builds his own apps to test all the Savage Worlds rules (as he does his own design-work for the system).

I believe it's a probability aggregate based on the fact we're talking about literally splitting a 1.4% difference. Two Fudge dice apparently in his simulations make up that difference.
Uhhh, "simulations" are completely statistically invalid (no matter how many times you run one).  The math of the fudge dice should be calculable, which will determine if there are any benefits to them.  But,  no matter how you program it, a result from a "simulation" is always an anecdote.

(Why do people have to spell out "uhhh" in a post?)

My response is simple: I don't care. Its there for a reason: because people have repeated the "math discrepency" for years. It really is less of an issue than the host of possible statistical glitches from the tons of +1's/-1's one can get from D&D. It's 1.4% on specific target number.

If you want to be reductionist about Fudge Dice being a net-zero on any given statistical curve - then why do they even exist? Heh. I'm not sure what to say? Don't use them? Like I said - it's an option to make people feel good.

If your point to hang on your participation in the discussion on some petty semantic thing that isn't even an issue... it says more about you than me. Carry on.

I mean... if we want we can discuss how astrophysics is just fantasy since their statistical calculations based on slivers of data with far more granularity than the probabilities of Fudge dice must be hocus-pocus too. This seems like a silly hill to die on in a Savage Pathfinder thread.

Whether or not you care is totally your prerogative.  I don't care that you don't care.  A poster pointed out that the math behind the dice in SW is a bit wonky.  You disagreed, using an unreliable methodology as your evidence of why the dice wonkiness doesn't matter.  I don't understand why any of this is a big deal.  There are far more substantial reasons to dislike SW than small statistical anomalies.  But you seem to be very invested in those statistics as some validation of the game system.  Are you sure that's the hill you want to die on?
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 21, 2021, 09:38:51 AM
Apparently you do care about my prerogative since you chose to quote *me*, not the actual poster.

I literally said it doesn't matter at my table. Twice. So clearly my investment in the "numbers" isn't what you think it is.

Do you even read? Or is it a comprehension issue? The fact that you started with "uhhhh" in a post, speaks volumes.

That you believe "simulations" are not reliable for statistical modeling... is one of the most stupid generalizations I've ever seen. It's so stupid, heh I'm actually laughing that it's quite a brilliant troll if I didn't think you meant it.

Edit: I'm remiss in my posting etiquette if I don't put something constructive. Eirikrautha - you did post something cogent that I see a LOT and experienced myself about the Bullet Sponge phenomenon. That experience happens with new SW GM's because they haven't learned how to balance their ability to reward Bennies to their players. PC's shouldn't be hoarding Bennies for combat with whatever Big Bad or encounter that may happen in that session. Bennies should flow to incentivize PC's to do crazy shit. If you choke the flow of Bennies, you'll get hoarding. It's not intuitive for new GM's. This is one of the oldest complaints that come up with new SW GM's that is totally solvable and changes the entire way the game is played once that balance is established.

There. The Forms have been followed.


Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Mishihari on June 21, 2021, 11:07:31 AM
They are run through a simulation of thousands of rolls. Zadmar builds his own apps to test all the Savage Worlds rules (as he does his own design-work for the system).

I believe it's a probability aggregate based on the fact we're talking about literally splitting a 1.4% difference. Two Fudge dice apparently in his simulations make up that difference.
Uhhh, "simulations" are completely statistically invalid (no matter how many times you run one).  The math of the fudge dice should be calculable, which will determine if there are any benefits to them.  But,  no matter how you program it, a result from a "simulation" is always an anecdote.

???!!!

In a properly done simulation, the odds of the simulated result being more than infinitesimaly different than a calculated difference is, well, infinitesimal.  The explanation is lengthy - I'd suggest a course in probability and statistics if you want a full understanding.  And simulations get used more than calculations because they are often a lot less work.  I use "Monte Carlo" simulations all the time in issues a lot more important than an RPG, and we have great confidence in them.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Eirikrautha on June 21, 2021, 11:18:38 AM
Edit: I'm remiss in my posting etiquette if I don't put something constructive. Eirikrautha - you did post something cogent that I see a LOT and experienced myself about the Bullet Sponge phenomenon. That experience happens with new SW GM's because they haven't learned how to balance their ability to reward Bennies to their players. PC's shouldn't be hoarding Bennies for combat with whatever Big Bad or encounter that may happen in that session. Bennies should flow to incentivize PC's to do crazy shit. If you choke the flow of Bennies, you'll get hoarding. It's not intuitive for new GM's. This is one of the oldest complaints that come up with new SW GM's that is totally solvable and changes the entire way the game is played once that balance is established.
I'll deal with the part of your response that is about RPGs (as your ad hominems, opinions on conversational writing, and understanding of statistics are irrelevant... suffice it to say that one of us is right about properly modeling random systems and neither of us agrees who it is).  Let me take my experience with both SW:Deadlands and with other SW-based games (like Slipstream, et al.).  The issue of "hoarding" bennies had nothing to do with the frequency they were given.  In both those games the whole group got a Bennie anytime one of us drew a jack for initiative.  We would easily have 7-8 bennies available per person per 3-4 hour session.  Players didn't spend them on "cool" stuff due to, a) the fact that points for spells/psychic powers often needed bennies for recharge (as fast moving adventures often didn't give us the hours between uses for the points to recharge, and b) each player used them mostly to remove stuns and soak damage.  The only casualties we had in the game occurred once bennies were gone, which incentivized players to save bennies.  This is especially true when wounds carry a performance penalty.  Who wants to sit and miss turns due to stun, or fail every roll that doesn't ace because you are -2 from wounds?  The very mechanics of the game incentivized preserving bennies for soak rolls.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Eirikrautha on June 21, 2021, 11:34:16 AM
They are run through a simulation of thousands of rolls. Zadmar builds his own apps to test all the Savage Worlds rules (as he does his own design-work for the system).

I believe it's a probability aggregate based on the fact we're talking about literally splitting a 1.4% difference. Two Fudge dice apparently in his simulations make up that difference.
Uhhh, "simulations" are completely statistically invalid (no matter how many times you run one).  The math of the fudge dice should be calculable, which will determine if there are any benefits to them.  But,  no matter how you program it, a result from a "simulation" is always an anecdote.

???!!!

In a properly done simulation, the odds of the simulated result being more than infinitesimaly different than a calculated difference is, well, infinitesimal.  The explanation is lengthy - I'd suggest a course in probability and statistics if you want a full understanding.  And simulations get used more than calculations because they are often a lot less work.  I use "Monte Carlo" simulations all the time in issues a lot more important than an RPG, and we have great confidence in them.
I've also done probability simulations in my profession.  Ignoring the "properly done" issue concerning this topic, I can say that simulations can be useful, depending on their error and significance ranges.  I can also categorically assert that the mathematical calculation of non-complex probabilities (and complex multi-dependent probabilities are usually why simulations are used) is superior 100% of the time.  Do you disagree that a mathematically calculated probability (where that is possible) is more accurate than a simulated one?
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Mishihari on June 21, 2021, 11:59:30 AM
They are run through a simulation of thousands of rolls. Zadmar builds his own apps to test all the Savage Worlds rules (as he does his own design-work for the system).

I believe it's a probability aggregate based on the fact we're talking about literally splitting a 1.4% difference. Two Fudge dice apparently in his simulations make up that difference.
Uhhh, "simulations" are completely statistically invalid (no matter how many times you run one).  The math of the fudge dice should be calculable, which will determine if there are any benefits to them.  But,  no matter how you program it, a result from a "simulation" is always an anecdote.

???!!!

In a properly done simulation, the odds of the simulated result being more than infinitesimaly different than a calculated difference is, well, infinitesimal.  The explanation is lengthy - I'd suggest a course in probability and statistics if you want a full understanding.  And simulations get used more than calculations because they are often a lot less work.  I use "Monte Carlo" simulations all the time in issues a lot more important than an RPG, and we have great confidence in them.
I've also done probability simulations in my profession.  Ignoring the "properly done" issue concerning this topic, I can say that simulations can be useful, depending on their error and significance ranges.  I can also categorically assert that the mathematical calculation of non-complex probabilities (and complex multi-dependent probabilities are usually why simulations are used) is superior 100% of the time.  Do you disagree that a mathematically calculated probability (where that is possible) is more accurate than a simulated one?

Sure, mathematically calculated is more accurate, assuming that your mathematical model is correct in the first place.  However in a few minutes I can write a sim of any dice mechanic with a very high confidence level of being within a millionth of a percentage of the mathematically calculated result.  For me, doing the actual math takes somewhat longer if there are complex dice mechanics, so I'll take the easier approach. 
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 21, 2021, 12:03:23 PM
Edit: I'm remiss in my posting etiquette if I don't put something constructive. Eirikrautha - you did post something cogent that I see a LOT and experienced myself about the Bullet Sponge phenomenon. That experience happens with new SW GM's because they haven't learned how to balance their ability to reward Bennies to their players. PC's shouldn't be hoarding Bennies for combat with whatever Big Bad or encounter that may happen in that session. Bennies should flow to incentivize PC's to do crazy shit. If you choke the flow of Bennies, you'll get hoarding. It's not intuitive for new GM's. This is one of the oldest complaints that come up with new SW GM's that is totally solvable and changes the entire way the game is played once that balance is established.
I'll deal with the part of your response that is about RPGs (as your ad hominems, opinions on conversational writing, and understanding of statistics are irrelevant... suffice it to say that one of us is right about properly modeling random systems and neither of us agrees who it is).  Let me take my experience with both SW:Deadlands and with other SW-based games (like Slipstream, et al.).  The issue of "hoarding" bennies had nothing to do with the frequency they were given.  In both those games the whole group got a Bennie anytime one of us drew a jack for initiative.  We would easily have 7-8 bennies available per person per 3-4 hour session.  Players didn't spend them on "cool" stuff due to, a) the fact that points for spells/psychic powers often needed bennies for recharge (as fast moving adventures often didn't give us the hours between uses for the points to recharge, and b) each player used them mostly to remove stuns and soak damage.  The only casualties we had in the game occurred once bennies were gone, which incentivized players to save bennies.  This is especially true when wounds carry a performance penalty.  Who wants to sit and miss turns due to stun, or fail every roll that doesn't ace because you are -2 from wounds?  The very mechanics of the game incentivized preserving bennies for soak rolls.

I can only go by what you post. You said (my paraphrase) 'everyone hoarded bennies for soak rolls' - this is 101 Savage Worlds New GM issue. It's been a thing long addressed for years **long** before I ever started using Savage Worlds and a trap I fell into as a new GM myself.

This also is an issue with the older Explorer Edition more than the current SWADE Edition. You have a metric shit-ton of unspoken claims here that can't be addressed without details. Bennies for Jacks - okay so what? If the players are passive - which is a byproduct of the Benny-Hoarding-Starvation cycle, as I said the point of the Benny Economy to alleviate the Hoarding is actually handing them out to incentivize players to not do it.

I tend to play hardcore mode myself because I like it ultra-lethal (including Injury Tables - which I'm not sure you're aware of if you only played Explorer Edition), I'm merely pointing out without detail, there is nothing I can say but "You're doing it wrong" - which is something NO one wants to hear, nor something I want to say in the spirit of being constructive. I'd need more details if you care. Everything you're saying screams to me your GM is new to the system and has horrible pacing control.

As I said - this phenomenon is well established in previous editions as much as any other system has its "known issues". This one is also easily rectified in the hands of even a basic brand new GM with little effort. Your mileage etc. etc. etc. based on the GM.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 21, 2021, 12:13:01 PM
You realize you're bickering over an anomaly that is less than 1.4% in *very* specific circumstances?

This is a variation that supports what precisely? What system doesn't have an odd mathematical application for the sake of abstraction? Shall we trot out how AC is supposed to numerically represent 2000+ years of armor creation? This seems to be a fairly petty concern, unless you really love math.

What are we really doing here?

Maybe we should create a Systems thread where we can talk about probabilities and statistics and their abstract use in game mechanics? I'm not joking. I don't see the value of going back and forth this. It's like arguing about whether +1 to hit for high-ground in D&D renders the system invalid. It's worse than that because +1 in D&D is a 5% increase in success...
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: horsesoldier on June 21, 2021, 02:08:14 PM
Savage Pathfinder. A combination of my two least favorite systems.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Eirikrautha on June 21, 2021, 02:32:30 PM
Edit: I'm remiss in my posting etiquette if I don't put something constructive. Eirikrautha - you did post something cogent that I see a LOT and experienced myself about the Bullet Sponge phenomenon. That experience happens with new SW GM's because they haven't learned how to balance their ability to reward Bennies to their players. PC's shouldn't be hoarding Bennies for combat with whatever Big Bad or encounter that may happen in that session. Bennies should flow to incentivize PC's to do crazy shit. If you choke the flow of Bennies, you'll get hoarding. It's not intuitive for new GM's. This is one of the oldest complaints that come up with new SW GM's that is totally solvable and changes the entire way the game is played once that balance is established.
I'll deal with the part of your response that is about RPGs (as your ad hominems, opinions on conversational writing, and understanding of statistics are irrelevant... suffice it to say that one of us is right about properly modeling random systems and neither of us agrees who it is).  Let me take my experience with both SW:Deadlands and with other SW-based games (like Slipstream, et al.).  The issue of "hoarding" bennies had nothing to do with the frequency they were given.  In both those games the whole group got a Bennie anytime one of us drew a jack for initiative.  We would easily have 7-8 bennies available per person per 3-4 hour session.  Players didn't spend them on "cool" stuff due to, a) the fact that points for spells/psychic powers often needed bennies for recharge (as fast moving adventures often didn't give us the hours between uses for the points to recharge, and b) each player used them mostly to remove stuns and soak damage.  The only casualties we had in the game occurred once bennies were gone, which incentivized players to save bennies.  This is especially true when wounds carry a performance penalty.  Who wants to sit and miss turns due to stun, or fail every roll that doesn't ace because you are -2 from wounds?  The very mechanics of the game incentivized preserving bennies for soak rolls.

I can only go by what you post. You said (my paraphrase) 'everyone hoarded bennies for soak rolls' - this is 101 Savage Worlds New GM issue. It's been a thing long addressed for years **long** before I ever started using Savage Worlds and a trap I fell into as a new GM myself.

This also is an issue with the older Explorer Edition more than the current SWADE Edition. You have a metric shit-ton of unspoken claims here that can't be addressed without details. Bennies for Jacks - okay so what? If the players are passive - which is a byproduct of the Benny-Hoarding-Starvation cycle, as I said the point of the Benny Economy to alleviate the Hoarding is actually handing them out to incentivize players to not do it.

I tend to play hardcore mode myself because I like it ultra-lethal (including Injury Tables - which I'm not sure you're aware of if you only played Explorer Edition), I'm merely pointing out without detail, there is nothing I can say but "You're doing it wrong" - which is something NO one wants to hear, nor something I want to say in the spirit of being constructive. I'd need more details if you care. Everything you're saying screams to me your GM is new to the system and has horrible pacing control.

As I said - this phenomenon is well established in previous editions as much as any other system has its "known issues". This one is also easily rectified in the hands of even a basic brand new GM with little effort. Your mileage etc. etc. etc. based on the GM.
Well, I seriously doubt this is just GM inexperience, inasmuch as the bennie hoarding is a direct result of the incentive created by the system.  To expand on a comment I made above, this also is demonstrated in the flow of combat.  Unless you play with very low toughness PCs and monsters (in which case you'll go through bennies like candy), you're going to get the "hit - does nothing, hit - does nothing, hit - does nothing, hit - ace damage dice - 5 wounds - dead" pattern.  This works against the player as much as it works for the player, so you can either save your bennies so that you don't get -3 to every subsequent roll due to wounds, or you can use them and be out the first time your GM aces a damage roll (BTW, we played Slipstream using SWADE and saw no difference in this pattern).  I'm just curious as to what the "normal" flow of combat is supposed to be like, if this is somehow unusual.  I need direct examples of what it should look like, not vague assertions that it shouldn't happen like that.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shasarak on June 21, 2021, 05:06:17 PM
First, as the saying goes, the plural of anecdote is not data.  An anecdote is a single experience.  Data is information about a representative sample.

Thats the opposite of the saying.

The plural of anecdote is data - thats how you get data, by adding up all the anecdotes.
Nope.

A better definition: Data that I dont like is called anecdotes
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 21, 2021, 06:13:37 PM
Well, I seriously doubt this is just GM inexperience, inasmuch as the bennie hoarding is a direct result of the incentive created by the system.  To expand on a comment I made above, this also is demonstrated in the flow of combat.  Unless you play with very low toughness PCs and monsters (in which case you'll go through bennies like candy), you're going to get the "hit - does nothing, hit - does nothing, hit - does nothing, hit - ace damage dice - 5 wounds - dead" pattern.  This works against the player as much as it works for the player, so you can either save your bennies so that you don't get -3 to every subsequent roll due to wounds, or you can use them and be out the first time your GM aces a damage roll (BTW, we played Slipstream using SWADE and saw no difference in this pattern).  I'm just curious as to what the "normal" flow of combat is supposed to be like, if this is somehow unusual.  I need direct examples of what it should look like, not vague assertions that it shouldn't happen like that.

Except everything you're describing is exactly that. Hell, the very way you're describing play it's as if you're playing mechanics as the game. I could reduce D&D down to the same algorithm - you swing, miss? Hit! roll damage. Rinse/repeat. This game is boring. The fact that you experience this shows me your GM either has you fighting things beyond your ability - or he's like me and likes things bloody but he never decided to tell his players (you) that.

The Benny economy properly managed (and honestly it's *NOT* that hard. Just hand out Bennys for the shit you like your players doing). If you never incentivize them for that of course they're going to hoard, especially in a brutal game where despite their abilities every fight gets them down to 3 Wounds. You're putting them in siege mode. Unless the setting is supposed to be like that, he's managing it wrong. That's crazy.

There is a miscommunication happening, clearly. I've been running this thing across multiple genres from lowly normy-humans fighting quasi-supernatural shit, to mountain shattering Rifts, fights rarely last more than a few rounds and it gets deadly when it's appropriately supposed to be deadly. Sure you can get your wild rolls where exploding dice insta-kill someone. OH WELL enjoy the easy kill PC's. And it's happened to PCs on occasion too.

But moderating all of that requires the GM to understand the system. Not sure what to tell you, your stories sound like others new to the system - including me, which dissolved the moment it clicked on Bennys. That took like two sessions to figure out. /shrug.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 21, 2021, 06:59:49 PM
Savage Pathfinder. A combination of my two least favorite systems.

Actually it's just Savage Worlds as a system. The setting is a very stripped down version of Pathfinder's Golarion. There is nothing overtly "Pathfinder" systemwise in here other than a Savage Worlds facsimile of some of the concepts. All of which are completely ignorable.

You don't have to take a Class Edge for instance. You can simply just play normally and you get some side bonuses instead. Somehow, heh I don't think this is going to matter for you, but it bears mentioning for anyone that thinks this is Pathfinder's system. It's not. It's SWADE.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Eirikrautha on June 21, 2021, 08:57:03 PM
Well, I seriously doubt this is just GM inexperience, inasmuch as the bennie hoarding is a direct result of the incentive created by the system.  To expand on a comment I made above, this also is demonstrated in the flow of combat.  Unless you play with very low toughness PCs and monsters (in which case you'll go through bennies like candy), you're going to get the "hit - does nothing, hit - does nothing, hit - does nothing, hit - ace damage dice - 5 wounds - dead" pattern.  This works against the player as much as it works for the player, so you can either save your bennies so that you don't get -3 to every subsequent roll due to wounds, or you can use them and be out the first time your GM aces a damage roll (BTW, we played Slipstream using SWADE and saw no difference in this pattern).  I'm just curious as to what the "normal" flow of combat is supposed to be like, if this is somehow unusual.  I need direct examples of what it should look like, not vague assertions that it shouldn't happen like that.

Except everything you're describing is exactly that. Hell, the very way you're describing play it's as if you're playing mechanics as the game. I could reduce D&D down to the same algorithm - you swing, miss? Hit! roll damage. Rinse/repeat. This game is boring. The fact that you experience this shows me your GM either has you fighting things beyond your ability - or he's like me and likes things bloody but he never decided to tell his players (you) that.

The Benny economy properly managed (and honestly it's *NOT* that hard. Just hand out Bennys for the shit you like your players doing). If you never incentivize them for that of course they're going to hoard, especially in a brutal game where despite their abilities every fight gets them down to 3 Wounds. You're putting them in siege mode. Unless the setting is supposed to be like that, he's managing it wrong. That's crazy.

There is a miscommunication happening, clearly. I've been running this thing across multiple genres from lowly normy-humans fighting quasi-supernatural shit, to mountain shattering Rifts, fights rarely last more than a few rounds and it gets deadly when it's appropriately supposed to be deadly. Sure you can get your wild rolls where exploding dice insta-kill someone. OH WELL enjoy the easy kill PC's. And it's happened to PCs on occasion too.

But moderating all of that requires the GM to understand the system. Not sure what to tell you, your stories sound like others new to the system - including me, which dissolved the moment it clicked on Bennys. That took like two sessions to figure out. /shrug.
You never answered the question, though.  What should a "correct" encounter look like?  When should bennies be used, especially in combat, if not to soak?  You keep saying that the way the game played for us was "beginner mistakes."  OK, then what is the "advanced version"?  I'm beginning to think you don't have any actual advice, since you can't give any clearly.

To compare with your D&D example:  Actually, you are saying exactly what I did above.  D&D combat can feel just as much of a slog as does SW (lot's of rounds of nothing, then poof - the monster is dead).  How would I change that?  Specific examples for D&D 5e: use optional rules for flanking to help generate more varied combats.  Be more generous with advantage (players who give up their action for some kind of maneuver should always convey advantage to multiple allies, not just the next attack).  Use varied terrain and obstacles, and traps that modify the environment (and not just cause damage).  Use environments where shoves and grapples/dragging open up more combat options.  Create choices through monster placement and type (attack the missile weapon mobs above or charge the toughs in front?).  All of these can be used to change the normal D&D slog.  Note that some are mechanical in nature, and some depend on D&D mechanics to work.  So what are the strategies to create variable combats and differing use of bennies (and don't say "what you just said," because they don't all work the same in SW as they do in D&D)?
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 22, 2021, 01:10:35 AM
While not Tembones, how quickly combat happens can be pretty easily calculated, depending on the foes toughness and players weapons.

If the players have low damage dealing weapons, and the foes have jacked up toughness, its gonna take forever.

Assuming the players are also innacurate and can’t do headshots or the like.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: oggsmash on June 22, 2021, 09:01:22 AM
While not Tembones, how quickly combat happens can be pretty easily calculated, depending on the foes toughness and players weapons.

If the players have low damage dealing weapons, and the foes have jacked up toughness, its gonna take forever.

Assuming the players are also innacurate and can’t do headshots or the like.

Or flank, or gang up, or gang tackle a foe and slide a dagger in their throat.  I think some of the toughness of opponents is overcome with wild attacks (similar to all out attacks from GURPS), targeted attacks from the drop, etc.  I appreciate that sometimes a head on assault wont get it done.  I also think we have been somewhat programmed by D&D to keep attacking till we hit that critical as other than a rogue, there is not always big value in positioning or outnumbering a foe.   I also found from a couple of games using SW against tough foes, magic is a serious force multiplier (smite, especially with a raise makes a massive difference for the grunts/warriors) in that many spells roll multiple dice (as well as the ranged spells seem to have better odds at getting a raise) and the chances of those aces make a big difference.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Eirikrautha on June 22, 2021, 10:34:47 AM
While not Tembones, how quickly combat happens can be pretty easily calculated, depending on the foes toughness and players weapons.

If the players have low damage dealing weapons, and the foes have jacked up toughness, its gonna take forever.

Assuming the players are also innacurate and can’t do headshots or the like.

Or flank, or gang up, or gang tackle a foe and slide a dagger in their throat.  I think some of the toughness of opponents is overcome with wild attacks (similar to all out attacks from GURPS), targeted attacks from the drop, etc.  I appreciate that sometimes a head on assault wont get it done.  I also think we have been somewhat programmed by D&D to keep attacking till we hit that critical as other than a rogue, there is not always big value in positioning or outnumbering a foe.   I also found from a couple of games using SW against tough foes, magic is a serious force multiplier (smite, especially with a raise makes a massive difference for the grunts/warriors) in that many spells roll multiple dice (as well as the ranged spells seem to have better odds at getting a raise) and the chances of those aces make a big difference.
OK, I'll look into what you have mentioned (I've never seen "wild attacks," etc.).  How do you help stop the "bennie hoarding" we started the conversation with, though?  It still seems like bennies are best used to soak, with every other use being wildly inferior.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 22, 2021, 11:19:36 AM
OK, I'll look into what you have mentioned (I've never seen "wild attacks," etc.).  How do you help stop the "bennie hoarding" we started the conversation with, though?  It still seems like bennies are best used to soak, with every other use being wildly inferior.

Not Tenbones or Oggsmash again, and I don't know if wild attacks are a thing in Explorer Edition (I know they are in Adventure Edition):

But SW (At least in my experience) favors the attacker. My players have found it better to hit well during critical times then hope for a soak, because enemy damage can spike.
Maybe try out saying that only 'Starter' bennies can be used to soak, and the rest during the game usable for other stuff. That can ween you into the process.

But I will also admit this may be a 'more of a art then a science' type of deal.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: camazotz on June 22, 2021, 11:30:06 AM
Hopefully it won't be too woke, but then again this is the two most woke publishers besides WotC so I won't count on it...
On a serious note, how would this be different from normal default Savage Worlds? Is it like Savage Rifts where you get 'archtypes' instead of 'classes'?

Lol, in what world is PEG the third most woke publisher in the industry? They did have that preemptive-defensive move where they ended the Civil War in Deadlands, but other than that, I really haven't seen anything ideological from them.

Anyway, I still don't get the popularity of Savage Pathfinder. What's the appeal of a hybrid of Savage Worlds and 3e D&D? I can't imagine why I would want that. It might make sense if Golarion were a great setting, but it's as boring and generic as they come. I guess Savage Pathfinder might do some good if the lessons learned from it help make the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion better when they finally get to it.

I'm not sure why the civil war has anything to do with wokeness. SWPF is for Savage Worlds players who want more fantasy content to use SW for D&D style games, that is it's purpose and it does it well. If you play actual Pathfinder then there's no reason to worry about it.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: HappyDaze on June 22, 2021, 11:35:23 AM
While not Tembones, how quickly combat happens can be pretty easily calculated, depending on the foes toughness and players weapons.

If the players have low damage dealing weapons, and the foes have jacked up toughness, its gonna take forever.

Assuming the players are also innacurate and can’t do headshots or the like.

Or flank, or gang up, or gang tackle a foe and slide a dagger in their throat.  I think some of the toughness of opponents is overcome with wild attacks (similar to all out attacks from GURPS), targeted attacks from the drop, etc.  I appreciate that sometimes a head on assault wont get it done.  I also think we have been somewhat programmed by D&D to keep attacking till we hit that critical as other than a rogue, there is not always big value in positioning or outnumbering a foe.   I also found from a couple of games using SW against tough foes, magic is a serious force multiplier (smite, especially with a raise makes a massive difference for the grunts/warriors) in that many spells roll multiple dice (as well as the ranged spells seem to have better odds at getting a raise) and the chances of those aces make a big difference.
OK, I'll look into what you have mentioned (I've never seen "wild attacks," etc.).  How do you help stop the "bennie hoarding" we started the conversation with, though?  It still seems like bennies are best used to soak, with every other use being wildly inferior.
Sometimes you don't need to hoard them for Soak (but keeping one or two isn't a bad idea) but you will need them for other things (e.g., success on hard tests, better initiative, etc.).
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: camazotz on June 22, 2021, 11:41:30 AM
Why speculate about it when you can read Shanes own words right here.

Quote
The decision for the CSA to fall in the Deadlands timeline after 1871 (1865 in the real world) is mine and mine alone. I created the world, I run the world with the help of some excellent people, and I know where it’s heading.

I’m a fiscal conservative and social liberal, have an MA in Military History, and am well-versed in the Civil War, the West, and the 19th century in general. I stand by the original decision to use the war to create the fear and terror of Deadlands (the same theme we explore in our Weird Wars line), and I stand by the decision now to change course.

Here’s why. Having characters loyal to the CSA…not just “Southerners” but actual loyalists to the cause, even if anti-slavery but loyal for some reason, can be *incredibly* uncomfortable for others at the table. Imagine the GM having to roleplay those voices. That’s not fun. That’s not what our game’s about. We want you to laugh and smile and roll Aces and get excited about your next session. And if you and your group want to explore heavier themes, go for it! But that’s something you and your friends can handle better than we can do in print where we deal with players and Marshals all over the world.

Feedback is important to me, I do listen, and I do care what all of you think about Deadlands. But the decisions are mine, the world is mine, and it will stay that way until I die. I know what it is, what it stands for, and where I want it to go.

Deadlands is spaghetti Western with horror. It’s cowboys and zombies. That’s the heart and soul of the Weird West. Everything else is background, real or imagined, cool or mundane.

So what about the story and history of Deadlands? How will the Last War in Hell on Earth start? We answered those questions internally a long time ago, and are excited to share them with you when the time comes.

The end of the Civil War 13 years prior to the current timeline still carries all the weight it did before. Heroes can be veterans of either side, harbor resentments, reminiscence about their experience at Gettysburg, and so on.

Everything up to the Battle of Washington (a huge steampunk battle in the world of Deadlands) stays the same. Not much happened after that in the official timeline anyway.

The Agents and Texas Rangers have been working together for a while under the Twilight Protocol, and they still do in the new edition (and fight with each other just like today’s government agencies).

The Great Rail Wars still happened just as it did before… it’s just the Union offering the contract rather than the Union and the CSA.

The Servitor series happens just as in those four EPIC Plot Point Campaigns.

Doomtown rose, fell, rose, fell, and well…it’s Doomtown. It never really dies!

Honestly, we think even the most dedicated fan won’t even notice the difference. We haven’t in our playtests, writings, and reviews.

Maybe you’ll agree. Maybe you won’t. That’s okay. We’re doing it anyway.

We’ve said everything we care to say on the issue, so our efforts from here forward are focused on making the best game and worlds we know how to make. If they don’t fit your tastes, that’s okay. We’re all lucky to live in a golden age of gaming right now and you have hundreds of choices. I’m very happy to see any of my friends at other companies get your business and for you to find whatever game, company, or system makes YOU and your friends happy. Truly.

Thanks again for reading, friends, and I hope to see you in the Weird West for one more ride!

Savage Worlds is about tropes, it's not supposed to be realistic. That said it's part of the larger in-game narrative they're creating for their Morgana Effect which is going to effect not just Deadlands, but some of their other gamelines as well.

For me? Meh. I'll still have CSA stuff in my game when I run it. I'm not a big fan of the Deadlands metaplot anyhow.

As for Savage Pathfinder - it's rock solid. I've been saying Savage Worlds does D&D fantasy better than D&D. Literally none of the problems that have plagued D&D in various amounts are an issue in Savage Worlds. What's better, since Savage Worlds can scale up to insane levels of power - you can lift most if not all the rules you want from Savage Rifts and use them for extreme high-level play without missing a beat. Something D&D in any incarnation would be an insane struggle by comparison.

I own all the current PDF's it's close to final drafts (I've kept each iteration). I'm happy to field any questions.

1) No their version of Golarion is not woke *at all* in the current draft. Frankly I'm take it or leave it on the setting, my goal is to convert all my 1e and 2e D&D material over. Greybox Realms, Spelljammer, Kara-Tur etc. Savage Pathfinder has done 95% of the work for us.

The greatness of Savage Pathfinder is not that it's Pathfinder. It's that now Savage Worlds will have a complete lineup of rules that kicks the door down for D&D style fantasy from top-to-bottom and beyond because the chassis scales WAY past what D&D of any edition can pull off easily.

Thanks for the quote from Shane, I did not know about this. I don't play Deadlands and never have, interesting to see how and why it's evolved and changed, though.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: oggsmash on June 22, 2021, 12:15:50 PM
While not Tembones, how quickly combat happens can be pretty easily calculated, depending on the foes toughness and players weapons.

If the players have low damage dealing weapons, and the foes have jacked up toughness, its gonna take forever.

Assuming the players are also innacurate and can’t do headshots or the like.

Or flank, or gang up, or gang tackle a foe and slide a dagger in their throat.  I think some of the toughness of opponents is overcome with wild attacks (similar to all out attacks from GURPS), targeted attacks from the drop, etc.  I appreciate that sometimes a head on assault wont get it done.  I also think we have been somewhat programmed by D&D to keep attacking till we hit that critical as other than a rogue, there is not always big value in positioning or outnumbering a foe.   I also found from a couple of games using SW against tough foes, magic is a serious force multiplier (smite, especially with a raise makes a massive difference for the grunts/warriors) in that many spells roll multiple dice (as well as the ranged spells seem to have better odds at getting a raise) and the chances of those aces make a big difference.
OK, I'll look into what you have mentioned (I've never seen "wild attacks," etc.).  How do you help stop the "bennie hoarding" we started the conversation with, though?  It still seems like bennies are best used to soak, with every other use being wildly inferior.

   I find my players are a bit more aggressive and tend to use their bennies for re rolling to hit or damage.   For the bad guys, I try to gauge what the bad guy's personality is, if he is an evil genius and wants to live at all costs, I make him use bennies to soak.  I use bennies for bad guys who are very aggressive, to be very aggressive.  Because the players and some of the bad guys might be very aggressive it makes the soaking less a huge time sink.  We did have some issues with what seemed to be long slugfests because of soaking wounds with bennies and relying on an ace to take down a tough opponent.  Once the players got a bit more familiar with taking advantage and using tactics, the bennies sort of became less important to a degree, and since they tend to be aggressive (my players) they burn bennies on other things in many of their adventures.  I also try to put traps, tricks, and some stunts needed to get through an adventure (many of these that can be lethal, so again bennies get burned leading to big face offs).  In fairness in that regard, I try to use the 'extra' bennies as much as I can on the adventures rather than hoarding them. 
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: oggsmash on June 22, 2021, 12:22:26 PM
OK, I'll look into what you have mentioned (I've never seen "wild attacks," etc.).  How do you help stop the "bennie hoarding" we started the conversation with, though?  It still seems like bennies are best used to soak, with every other use being wildly inferior.

Not Tenbones or Oggsmash again, and I don't know if wild attacks are a thing in Explorer Edition (I know they are in Adventure Edition):

But SW (At least in my experience) favors the attacker. My players have found it better to hit well during critical times then hope for a soak, because enemy damage can spike.
Maybe try out saying that only 'Starter' bennies can be used to soak, and the rest during the game usable for other stuff. That can ween you into the process.

But I will also admit this may be a 'more of a art then a science' type of deal.

  They were in explorer, but from what I remember I do not know if they even had their own bold face heading.  I think they were brought to my attention on a GM screen, and I looked in the index to find them (correction, they do have a bold face heading, and are on page 87 of the explorer edition) and was like...wow.   
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: oggsmash on June 22, 2021, 12:57:00 PM
  For hitting the tough targets I will add this (Explorer edition, I assume it is also possible in SWADE, though I do not know if assassin is an edge there).
  Take your tough bad guy, being ganged up on by 3 of your tanks.  The rogue manages to creep around behind him, getting the drop (+4 to hit and damage), uses a wild attack (+2 to hit and damage), has the assassin edge (from Fantasy Companion, for another +2 to damage), gets a gang up bonus to hit of +2, decides to go for the vitals for a -4 to hit and a +4 to damage.  That is a total of +4 to hit (huge in SW) and a total damage bonus of +12.  This has ended several tough bad guy's day for my players.  The same rogue can also decide to sit back in hiding and shoot his bow instead, and often has even better odds of hitting if he is short ranged and undetected (he does lose the wild attack and gang up, but ranged attacks land against a lower TN and he still has aim and the drop, and keeps the assassin damage bonus to land a devastating shot at +10 damage).    Throw in Smite cast with a raise, and to be honest soak bennies get burnt very, very fast. 
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 22, 2021, 01:05:46 PM
While not Tembones, how quickly combat happens can be pretty easily calculated, depending on the foes toughness and players weapons.

If the players have low damage dealing weapons, and the foes have jacked up toughness, its gonna take forever.

Assuming the players are also innacurate and can’t do headshots or the like.

Or flank, or gang up, or gang tackle a foe and slide a dagger in their throat.  I think some of the toughness of opponents is overcome with wild attacks (similar to all out attacks from GURPS), targeted attacks from the drop, etc.  I appreciate that sometimes a head on assault wont get it done.  I also think we have been somewhat programmed by D&D to keep attacking till we hit that critical as other than a rogue, there is not always big value in positioning or outnumbering a foe.   I also found from a couple of games using SW against tough foes, magic is a serious force multiplier (smite, especially with a raise makes a massive difference for the grunts/warriors) in that many spells roll multiple dice (as well as the ranged spells seem to have better odds at getting a raise) and the chances of those aces make a big difference.
OK, I'll look into what you have mentioned (I've never seen "wild attacks," etc.).  How do you help stop the "bennie hoarding" we started the conversation with, though?  It still seems like bennies are best used to soak, with every other use being wildly inferior.

Oh man you're getting onto the path!

Oggs and Shrieking are pointing you the way!


Having someone in the party use Tricks and be "that guy" that slaps Shaken on enemies is a *huge* deal. And one that is overlooked all the time. Especially when considering things like "the Drop" and Assassinate as a lead-in.

Okay the Bennies thing is going to take some doing once your party has already settled into the Hoarding mentality. There are several ways to decondition players. I'm going to say this from a GM perspective first.

1) Start PROACTIVELY rewarding your PC's for playing their hindrances. Whether it's for their benefit or not. But especially reward them when it's for negative reasons.

2) When a player does something with their PC that you think defines that PC in your eyes, or their eyes (something you should talk about at Char-gen or it could be emergent in the game) - give them Bennies.

3) Do a good job describing a scene (especially if combat is about to ensue) and highlight environmental stuff that could effect the course of the fight. And if you have NPC's on the PC's side, have them queue their use if the PC's don't think of it. And don't hesitate for bad guys to do so too. When the PC's do it - give them a Benny.

4) Let your players describe narratively what they're trying to do and how it will look, and juice it up and make it heroic. If they get into it with you, they'll start unconsciously trying to do more and more heroic/crazy stunts that should give them Bennies.

5) Something I do is I crib Fate's Aspects for my players at Chargen. I have them give me three Aspects or things about their PC's and I reward them with Bennies anytime they act on them or I test them on it and they react in accordance with it. Weave them into their Hindrances. This gives you a lot of synergy that will encourage their engagement in roleplay and combat encounters.

6) Don't skimp on your encounters when they are hard. Making sure your PC's have lots of Bennies makes fights *more* epic. A hard fight can be any fight where Bennies are tight. But if Bennies are flowing - that fight with 5 Orcs under normal circumstances could be 20 Orcs and your players will fight like heroic bastards. Be mindful of what these numbers mean. If every monster is rocking a d12 to attack, that's pretty high-octane. Let the players be the heroes, that Parry rating means they're that good at deflecting/dodging attacks let your players describe it (or you do it) to let the gravity of how good your players are.

I had a new player in SW (Beasts and Barbarians) in his first game ever - rocking an 11 Parry fresh out of the gate (with his Shield and Edges) and after wading through a throng of enemy barbarians where he parried, deflected like 7 attacks on him and he proceeded to attrition them down single-handedly, he immediately understood why I moved to SW over D&D. It's not that I lowered the bar for him, it's that the mechanical choices of his character means he's THAT good to regular foes. It's higher octane.

Conversely this doesn't mean I have to put in a roided Ogre Captain just to beat him - I have to play my NPCs/Monsters smarter once the realization of how good he is, and what a danger he actually poses in order to deal with him. OR ruuuun away.

As a Player -

1) Be proactive about trying stuff that goes beyond the assumptions of "I attack". Yes by all means play the mechanics but the whole point of the system is to leverage whatever narrative examples are laid down to squeeze some dynamics out that lead to greater success - which makes it heroic in the mere attempt even if you fail.

2) Indulge in your Hindrances. Too many players pick up Hindrances thinking they're just there to give you your "free" 4 points. They're there to roleplay and if your GM is on point, pick up Bennies. What's the point of being Addicted and while on a binge in the Tavern you don't start a drunken bar-fight because you took Mean or Arrogant too? That's a fucking Benny-Factory at my table. Assuming you don't get yourself killed/maimed pursuing things like this.

3) No man is an island in a boss-fight. If you're out of Bennys, nothing prevents you from going all out in a fight and getting Bennys by doing crazy shit. AND you should do it with your party in coordination. A well coordinated party using good tactics can bring down heavy bosses that exceed the PC's individual power level. Called shots, Taunt, Tricks, Gang-up tactics are bread and butter. But don't forget using the environment - these become justifications to do heroic shit that you can always negotiate for a Benny.

Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 22, 2021, 01:51:06 PM
Anyway, what Im looking for in SW is fights that discourage fights in terms of power. As a GM its dull as dishwater to pit my numbers against the PCs numbers. I want to succeed with their brains and creativity, not their numbers.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 22, 2021, 01:56:49 PM
yeah. I've never adhered to that kind of gaming. But it's because I run things as a sandbox. I try to cultivate an ecology where things exist where they're supposed to exist contextually. I don't care about the power-level of the PC's.

But my friction points in the game are driven by NPC's that have their own agendas, and sometimes they're radically under/over the power-level of the PC's but their machinations change the context of the setting in direct opposition to whatever the party goes. Somewhere in there, the PC's are also doing their own thing, and exploring stuff, and kicking over hornets nests which invariably interacts with these things.

I'm less concerned with the PC's being challenged based on power-level as I am with them having fun doing whatever it is they wanna do, and if they uncover big scary ugly shit - even better.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Rhedyn on June 22, 2021, 03:39:43 PM
After playing Savage Worlds for a few years, I believe the combat in Savage Worlds works best when encounters are too hard or too easy. Encounters you shouldn't be able to win are possible, while you can never feel safe in "easy" encounters. It's that perception of danger where Savage Worlds shines. Basically every RPG takes forever to "almost kill" the party, but it's only in "even" fights that a party may feel in danger. Savage Worlds allows for your party of 6 to be jumped by 6 bandits and still feel in danger even if actual PC death chance is low.

With a ton of theorycraft and calculations you can work out a system to make "balanced encounters" in Savage Worlds. It's doable. Your prize for your efforts is a 3 hour+ combat that takes most of the session. Whoo? Don't do that. Don't plan encounters and don't balance them. Take the OSR situation approach or take the D&D 5e approach of pre planned easy encounters with like 1 hard one to cap a story arc. I don't like the latter as much, but Savage Worlds works for that approach longer than 5e does (in terms of number of sessions in a campaign. At higher levels 5e combat takes too long while Savage Worlds remains the same length).

Where Savage Worlds falls apart is people taking a D&D 3.5 or D&D 4e approach of forcing the party into a "balanced encounter". You don't feel threatened but Heroic in a balanced encounter AND you don't feel like you overcame impossible odds. You just get frustrated when things don't work and frustrated when things work against you. The Swingy-ness in Savage Worlds is supposed to be a feature, but "balanced encounters" make it a source of frustration.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: 234ne on June 23, 2021, 05:06:41 PM
Anyway, what Im looking for in SW is fights that discourage fights in terms of power. As a GM its dull as dishwater to pit my numbers against the PCs numbers. I want to succeed with their brains and creativity, not their numbers.

I had a talk about this with a friend once, back in Explorer edition, where SW's 'test of wills' and 'tricks' can become a determent to player creativity and put emphasis on stat building & benny using instead; similar in their WEG predecessors. Since you already have a sub-system in place of resolving the use of traditionally non-combat attributes, players tend to spam it with minimal roleplaying involved (similar to how the generic 'I attack him!" is used). SWADE kinda fixed this with a more broader circumstances to activate it's 'test' and including a room for the GM to veto the player for not being creative enough. Even still, in my opinion, you should have the 'creative combat' option rule on the table by default to add randomness to encourage quick thinking.

But it's because I run things as a sandbox.

Speaking of sandbox, I wonder why there is no official supplement/ruleset for a hexcrawl or base building in this system (similar to PF:Ultimate Campaign), even though the default rules are geared for that (with a lot hazards rules), and instead the devs want to emphasize 'plot point campaigning.'   
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 23, 2021, 06:28:43 PM

Speaking of sandbox, I wonder why there is no official supplement/ruleset for a hexcrawl or base building in this system (similar to PF:Ultimate Campaign), even though the default rules are geared for that (with a lot hazards rules), and instead the devs want to emphasize 'plot point campaigning.'   

It's a good question. I suspect it's because of the idea that Savage Worlds is about "tropes" so it leaves it up to the GM whether they want to fill those gaps between plot-points with Hex Crawl material.

That said, I do it naturally. It always felt odd that people consider Hex Crawling to be a discrete thing. I've always assumed you either screen-wipe to the next point or you make people travel there. Hex Crawling, if done right, is a great way to get players immersed into the game because making day-to-day decisions even if nothing happens, just getting prepared for travel overland is an exercise of player agency on its own. There's *always* something a newb player forgets that they take for granted that makes traveling worthy of adventure. not enough food? Time to go out and scavenge. Anyone scouting ahead? Time for a possible ambush? Maybe they do scout and the discover some mystery - remnants of a wiped out caravan, ruins, etc. There's always something to be done in the hands of a good GM that can think on their toes or with a fistful of random tables.

It does seem worthy of putting into a supplement. HMM!!!!????!!???
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: 234ne on June 23, 2021, 06:53:01 PM
There's *always* something a newb player forgets that they take for granted that makes traveling worthy of adventure. not enough food? Time to go out and scavenge. Anyone scouting ahead? Time for a possible ambush? Maybe they do scout and the discover some mystery - remnants of a wiped out caravan, ruins, etc. There's always something to be done in the hands of a good GM that can think on their toes or with a fistful of random tables.

Which makes it weirder, because this thing started out as miniature wargame project and those things you listed are general staples of a warmini campaign (which OSR also have a lot of roots in). I really think there is a market for it to put out, at least, a mini supplement for those type of game.

Sidenote: I really recommend doing SW with miniature combat as default, if you have the space for a 4x4 or bigger play area and once you get the hang of the rules.     
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: FingerRod on June 23, 2021, 07:01:39 PM
Sidenote: I really recommend doing SW with miniature combat as default, if you have the space for a 4x4 or bigger play area and once you get the hang of the rules.     

Why do you recommend miniature? With all of this SW talk, I dusted off my SWADE copy and I am planning to run a one shot this weekend. Was going to go TotM, but now I’m curious.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 23, 2021, 10:59:38 PM
If your players are into it - then it's fun. I'm 50/50 on it not because using figures is bad or anything...

I'll admit it... I'm stickler for only using painted figures, and I simply don't have the time to paint them up. And it drives me crazy that I already have a lot of figures that remain unpainted for years.

BUT... now Pinnacle is putting out some pretty high-quality figure-flats. So no painting needed, and they sell them so you can mass-army build on the cheap for you games. I know they have a bunch coming out for Rifts Atlantis.

That all said, I'm perfectly fine playing without minis, but it's well supported mechanically if you want to use them.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: 234ne on June 23, 2021, 11:18:59 PM
Why do you recommend miniature? With all of this SW talk, I dusted off my SWADE copy and I am planning to run a one shot this weekend. Was going to go TotM, but now I’m curious.

It feels more natural for my group and a lot more fun whenever we bring the system up (albeit bit more hassle to setup). My opinion of it after playing with TotM and semi-Mini campaign, I think the devs, at least when starting out, wanted to make a game similar to a skirmish wargame (i.e. Mordheim), but with more option of it as a RPG. So rather than running it like a traditional RPG's structure, it feels like it was made to run with a series of 'mini skirmish battles" with in-between scenes of drama (in hindsight maybe that's why the devs emphasize a 'plot point campaign' rather than a sandbox style).

Also for somethings it makes more sense or its easier to understand in a mini format. For example, one of my players got a new appreciation for reach weapons when hitting people in elevation with a 3D model (also you can push people off for extra damage).   

Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: FingerRod on June 24, 2021, 06:25:55 AM
Why do you recommend miniature? With all of this SW talk, I dusted off my SWADE copy and I am planning to run a one shot this weekend. Was going to go TotM, but now I’m curious.

It feels more natural for my group and a lot more fun whenever we bring the system up (albeit bit more hassle to setup). My opinion of it after playing with TotM and semi-Mini campaign, I think the devs, at least when starting out, wanted to make a game similar to a skirmish wargame (i.e. Mordheim), but with more option of it as a RPG. So rather than running it like a traditional RPG's structure, it feels like it was made to run with a series of 'mini skirmish battles" with in-between scenes of drama (in hindsight maybe that's why the devs emphasize a 'plot point campaign' rather than a sandbox style).

Also for somethings it makes more sense or its easier to understand in a mini format. For example, one of my players got a new appreciation for reach weapons when hitting people in elevation with a 3D model (also you can push people off for extra damage).   

That is interesting. Thank you. I may have to bring my battlemat book out of storage.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: oggsmash on June 25, 2021, 08:41:54 PM
  Just to address some of the comments about Pinnacle being woke,  I have been reading the SW rendition of Monster Hunters International, and its all toxic masculine gun porn for a good deal of it.  So pronouncements of woke may well be a good bit premature.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: HappyDaze on June 25, 2021, 10:17:16 PM
  Just to address some of the comments about Pinnacle being woke,  I have been reading the SW rendition of Monster Hunters International, and its all toxic masculine gun porn for a good deal of it.  So pronouncements of woke may well be a good bit premature.
Have you seen the recent bit about some fans complaining about the cover art for their Atlantis Kickstarter. In 2021, it's no longer OK for Splugorth to have their genetically engineered warrior women clones wearing one piece swimsuits into battle.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 26, 2021, 01:14:45 AM
  Just to address some of the comments about Pinnacle being woke,  I have been reading the SW rendition of Monster Hunters International, and its all toxic masculine gun porn for a good deal of it.  So pronouncements of woke may well be a good bit premature.

Sadly, thats because thats a licensable thing. MHI doesn't have anything to do with Pinnacle. And yeah them bending the knee to the outrage mob for the cover has me angry.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 26, 2021, 01:25:52 AM
  Just to address some of the comments about Pinnacle being woke,  I have been reading the SW rendition of Monster Hunters International, and its all toxic masculine gun porn for a good deal of it.  So pronouncements of woke may well be a good bit premature.
Have you seen the recent bit about some fans complaining about the cover art for their Atlantis Kickstarter. In 2021, it's no longer OK for Splugorth to have their genetically engineered warrior women clones wearing one piece swimsuits into battle.

Well while there's not a lot of skin in the game (not sure that matters much, I don't recall Palladium Rifts being full of scantily-clad ladies...

As for the Splugorth's Grrl-Hitsquad, they're represented in Savage Rifts. I mean granted the art isn't as good as Parkinsons... but whattya gonna do? It's Keith Motherfuckin Parkinson.

(https://i.imgur.com/y1MnqaQ.jpg)

Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: oggsmash on June 26, 2021, 02:22:22 AM
  Just to address some of the comments about Pinnacle being woke,  I have been reading the SW rendition of Monster Hunters International, and its all toxic masculine gun porn for a good deal of it.  So pronouncements of woke may well be a good bit premature.

Sadly, thats because thats a licensable thing. MHI doesn't have anything to do with Pinnacle. And yeah them bending the knee to the outrage mob for the cover has me angry.

  I know, but Larry Correia is literal Kryptonite to SJW types.  Pinnacle allowing SW to be used for it gives me some glimmer there.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 26, 2021, 02:45:20 AM
  I know, but Larry Correia is literal Kryptonite to SJW types.  Pinnacle allowing SW to be used for it gives me some glimmer there.
I know. I don’t get the sense that pinnacle are SJWs. Just that they are buying into the stage 1 SJW pitch:
Please be more inclusive to us, we will buy your stuff more.

That pitch has Suckered in so many with nice sounding platitudes.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Armchair Gamer on June 26, 2021, 09:15:18 AM
  I know, but Larry Correia is literal Kryptonite to SJW types.  Pinnacle allowing SW to be used for it gives me some glimmer there.

  They also linked to a blog post of his in the latest newsletter. I'm surprised I haven't seen any outrage about that from the Usual Suspects.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Ocule on June 28, 2021, 09:46:12 AM
Ive been running savage worlds for a few years now as my main system of choice. I'll say alot of the detraction on this thread is wrong. I mean, i'm not gonna knock someone for liking or not liking a game its a matter of preference but most of the reasons given seem to be from someone who didnt really give the game a fair shot or didn't understand certain aspects of the rules.

As for savage pathfinder... I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand I hate paizo, and their sjw bullshit. Also the class edges undermine the freeform character creation system by shoe horning you into a certain playstyle and while you can forgo the class edges you will miss out on things like Epic Modifiers for powers. On the other hand the Fantasy companion is several editions out of date and most of stuff in there is either updated to be in the core rulebook or no longer in the game. Good for magic items, bestiary and some edges.

As for removing the CSA I was a pretty big critic of it, Shane Hensley's post cleared things up a little bit but thats how sjw bullshit always starts. It always starts small, and snowballs from there. Make no mistake stage 1 cancer is the best way to describe it, a small tumor. More and more sjw types have been migrating into various SW groups, and if they didn't exist i'd probably just dismiss removing the csa as who cares. It never added much to my games, but it served as a constant reminder that you were in a different timeline or version of earth. Now with them gone, you can effectively also dissolve the Coyote Federation and the other native american faction, and it makes future timelines alot less of a hassle to justify. Like Deadlands Noir.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: PencilBoy99 on June 29, 2021, 03:54:51 PM
Why do you recommend miniature? With all of this SW talk, I dusted off my SWADE copy and I am planning to run a one shot this weekend. Was going to go TotM, but now I’m curious.

It feels more natural for my group and a lot more fun whenever we bring the system up (albeit bit more hassle to setup). My opinion of it after playing with TotM and semi-Mini campaign, I think the devs, at least when starting out, wanted to make a game similar to a skirmish wargame (i.e. Mordheim), but with more option of it as a RPG. So rather than running it like a traditional RPG's structure, it feels like it was made to run with a series of 'mini skirmish battles" with in-between scenes of drama (in hindsight maybe that's why the devs emphasize a 'plot point campaign' rather than a sandbox style).

Also for somethings it makes more sense or its easier to understand in a mini format. For example, one of my players got a new appreciation for reach weapons when hitting people in elevation with a 3D model (also you can push people off for extra damage).   

I've never been able to make ToM work well with SW as soon as a couple of antagonists are involved. I needed minis with explicit distances.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 29, 2021, 07:32:06 PM
how is it different from D&D? Inches were part of those measuring of the tabletop like SW. Adjudication of the blast-effects? That's the only thing I can think of that takes basic ruling.

Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: HappyDaze on June 29, 2021, 08:30:42 PM
how is it different from D&D? Inches were part of those measuring of the tabletop like SW. Adjudication of the blast-effects? That's the only thing I can think of that takes basic ruling.
Blast effects have a sidebar that makes them super easy in TotM.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on June 30, 2021, 04:37:27 AM
Between grid and TOTM there is also 'general distances'. Where you have a basic sketch detailing where crap is.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on June 30, 2021, 03:29:07 PM
how is it different from D&D? Inches were part of those measuring of the tabletop like SW. Adjudication of the blast-effects? That's the only thing I can think of that takes basic ruling.
Blast effects have a sidebar that makes them super easy in TotM.

Oh I have no problem with ToM in any game I play. I was just asking why Pencilboy was having problems.

I think the Blast Templates are pretty easy to get without the need for the Battlemat. But I do understand that ToM doesn't come easy to a lot of players, which may be the case here.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: PencilBoy99 on June 30, 2021, 03:32:29 PM
I think I just need to watch someone who is good at SW ToM.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: oggsmash on June 30, 2021, 03:35:00 PM
  IME, being good at TOM is just being able to spitball it on the fly using common sense.  Worst case, rule slightly in favor of the players instead of argue for 20 minutes over 3 feet has always been a good policy for me.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on July 01, 2021, 10:16:09 AM
I'm starting to work on my own extended rules. My current to-do list


This is my starting list... I'm fairly confident there will be more I'll need to do as I go.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 02, 2021, 02:10:04 PM
I'm starting to work on my own extended rules. My current to-do list

  • Spelljamming rules - Including variant rules for Helms and "space travel" options in case "Spelljammer" is not the actual game.
  • New Class/Prestige Edges: Samurai, Sohei, Kensei, Psion, Psychic Warrior, Wu Jen, Cerebremancer
  • New Spelljamming/Setting Edges: Spelljammer/Realms-specific setting related Edges
  • Ship subsystems: Optional systems/tables for ship-combat, modification.
  • Deity Specific Domains and Vows
  • Codes of Honor: Lists of various Codes for PC's to follow
  • Gear: Spelljammer and cultural specific gear.
  • Spelljammer/Other setting Monster conversion

This is my starting list... I'm fairly confident there will be more I'll need to do as I go.

My man, so much stuff is similar to mine. Especially the ship combat. I found a ship-combat system I like, but that wil take some work to convert.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on July 02, 2021, 05:19:47 PM
I'm starting to work on my own extended rules. My current to-do list

  • Spelljamming rules - Including variant rules for Helms and "space travel" options in case "Spelljammer" is not the actual game.
  • New Class/Prestige Edges: Samurai, Sohei, Kensei, Psion, Psychic Warrior, Wu Jen, Cerebremancer
  • New Spelljamming/Setting Edges: Spelljammer/Realms-specific setting related Edges
  • Ship subsystems: Optional systems/tables for ship-combat, modification.
  • Deity Specific Domains and Vows
  • Codes of Honor: Lists of various Codes for PC's to follow
  • Gear: Spelljammer and cultural specific gear.
  • Spelljammer/Other setting Monster conversion

This is my starting list... I'm fairly confident there will be more I'll need to do as I go.

My man, so much stuff is similar to mine. Especially the ship combat. I found a ship-combat system I like, but that wil take some work to convert.

Heh that's because you have good taste, sir.

Savage Pathfinder has opened the door for a LOT of possibilities. I don't mean just for our tables. But now there is a template for us to create publishable content where while we can't expressly use Savage Pathfinder, that doesn't mean we can't build fantasy settings in parallel to "classic D&D" along those lines.

I've been waiting for this to happen. I'm hoping SW will have a nice little renaissance because of SWPathfinder (and SWRifts). The system is solid and scalable. It's not perfect, but it handles a LOT of shit that d20 struggles with, and does it with ease.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 03, 2021, 11:00:49 AM
A basic houserule Im gonna introduce is that armor limitations only apply to the classes abilities, not every ability ever.

So by becoming a rogue from a baker, now you don't suddeny suck at baking while wearing armor when for 20 years you never had that issue before.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:25:36 AM
A basic houserule Im gonna introduce is that armor limitations only apply to the classes abilities, not every ability ever.

So by becoming a rogue from a baker, now you don't suddeny suck at baking while wearing armor when for 20 years you never had that issue before.

  I have a feeling moving around in a hot kitchen with what would be cramped conditions (I think mcmansion kitchens are a more recent US invention) doing what amounts to several finer movements might actually be a case for armor having a detrimental effect to a skill.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 03, 2021, 11:44:59 AM
I have a feeling moving around in a hot kitchen with what would be cramped conditions (I think mcmansion kitchens are a more recent US invention) doing what amounts to several finer movements might actually be a case for armor having a detrimental effect to a skill.
True, but that only kicks in after becoming a Rogue is my issue (with how edges are designed).
SW lacks a proficiency system, and instead has skill rankings or minimal STR requirements. I find the armor penalty more a balancing factor for some stuff, but id rather it be a balancing factor for said specific abilities, not everything else sort of 'retroactively'.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on July 03, 2021, 03:19:28 PM
Well since that rule exists specifically for SW Pathfinder, it's there to balance the heft of the Class Edge itself while paying homage to the D&D conceits of Classes.

So there is no reason you couldn't rebalance it *without* that Armor Limitation ruling, which I'm not a fan of, but I understand why it's there: To give D&D/Pathfinder players the "sense" of playing D&D/Pathfinder within the Savage Worlds ruleset. "Classes" imo should be looked at as an entirely new sub-system that has plenty of room to be tweaked. I'm still weighing on that rule myself but I'll cross that bridge where I create new Class Edges. You bring up an interesting point with your house-rule.

The moment I saw Savage Rifts Iconic Frameworks, I knew this was the direction they were going to go. +4 Race Bonus totals, Beefy Class Edges = LOTS of design maneuvering room. I look at Savage Rifts as a fairly soft and very HIGH ceiling. Savage Pathfinder is a nice floor.

Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 03, 2021, 04:24:52 PM
Well since that rule exists specifically for SW Pathfinder, it's there to balance the heft of the Class Edge itself while paying homage to the D&D conceits of Classes.

Yeah its the one of the few 'homages' I actually dislike. For instance the magic item system is a major improvement. The problem wasn't the +1 magic sword. The problem was the +2-5 magic sword that made magic items a treadmill, and made costs multiply exponentially.

If you wanted to challenge players at higher levels, you needed a inherent advancement system, or have enemies wearing bajillions in bling, which also had to be non-sellable or something.

Also the wand of CLW is thankfully not exploitable anymore, as wands don't come with a cost reduction effect.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: 234ne on July 03, 2021, 08:40:19 PM
have enemies wearing bajillions in bling, which also had to be non-sellable or something.

This reminds me of a talk with my group on how default D&D economics doesn't make any sense; at least what the writers in various modules expect.
"How are these things expensive if every high level enemy have them?"
"Why aren't gold inflated at this level?"
"Can we even sell these? Does the merchant have this much gold, physically? Can he even sell it for a profit and to whom?"
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: palaeomerus on July 14, 2021, 12:03:48 AM
I remember when D20 was splintering into "flavors" where some people wanted True20 and some D20 Modern and some where looking for alternatives outside of the OGL so, Chaosium/BasicRP got a 2nd look, Savage Worlds became a possibility, Silhouette tried to GURPSify itself. White Wolf was pushing their Tri Stat, R. Talsorian tried to change Inteloc into Fuzion, and then in the midst of all that freaking Evil Hat just appears and basically says " hey. I've got an idea...let's charge money for a new version of F.U.D.G.E " and it works?
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: oggsmash on July 14, 2021, 07:51:14 AM
have enemies wearing bajillions in bling, which also had to be non-sellable or something.

This reminds me of a talk with my group on how default D&D economics doesn't make any sense; at least what the writers in various modules expect.
"How are these things expensive if every high level enemy have them?"
"Why aren't gold inflated at this level?"
"Can we even sell these? Does the merchant have this much gold, physically? Can he even sell it for a profit and to whom?"

   No they do not.  Our DM uses the system as is when we play it and I try to ignore it.  When I am running a game, even fantasy (for which I use GURPS or Savage Worlds) I use their general Dollar prices and run as if 1 copper = 1 dollar, and then have a few silver coins that run from 4$ to 10$.  A gold coin is worth 100-200$.   This means a thrusting broad sword is worth 3-6 gold coins and a spear is closer to a few silver coins.  D&D prices for weapons are often based on the damage the weapon does and not the actual labor it takes to produce the weapon.   Many places also trade in bits of gold and silver (often hacked off of bars or torcs) roughly equal to coins and merchants rarely have massive amounts of gold, as gold is simply not traded for most transactions. 
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on July 14, 2021, 09:43:22 AM
I remember when D20 was splintering into "flavors" where some people wanted True20 and some D20 Modern and some where looking for alternatives outside of the OGL so, Chaosium/BasicRP got a 2nd look, Savage Worlds became a possibility, Silhouette tried to GURPSify itself. White Wolf was pushing their Tri Stat, R. Talsorian tried to change Inteloc into Fuzion, and then in the midst of all that freaking Evil Hat just appears and basically says " hey. I've got an idea...let's charge money for a new version of F.U.D.G.E " and it works?

And now... because of how Savage Worlds is designed you can now play: Cyberpunk, D&D, Rifts, Cthulhu, Conan, Wildwest, Space Opera, and Superheroes - all under one system that scales up and down to the granularity you desire with relative ease.

Their settings are mechanically all interchangeable and scalable. This is the exact inversion of the d20 splintering effect. Savage Worlds handles them all with fidelity, GM not withstanding.

There are definitely things that Savage Worlds could use form of development on that it doesn't do overtly - hexcrawling. But those tools are easily ported over from other games with little effort. Nothing a few tables and some dice can't fix.

Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on July 17, 2021, 11:35:17 PM
Found this neat little blogpost for converting other systems to Savage Worlds.

https://rodneyorpheus.medium.com/converting-other-rpgs-to-savage-worlds-9ab60228f71d

Covers general d20
D&D 5e
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1e/2e
d100 BRP systems -  Call of Cthulhu, Runequest, Stormbringer, FASA Star Trek, OpenQuest, Magic World etc.
OpenD6 - Star Wars etc.

It's pretty good!
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: palaeomerus on July 18, 2021, 01:16:11 AM
Savage Pathfinder seems like something from a joke like GURPS Runequest or Tunnels & Trolls Paranoia.


You got your chocolate yoghurt in my peanut butter flavored soda.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on July 18, 2021, 02:35:35 AM
Savage Pathfinder seems like something from a joke like GURPS Runequest or Tunnels & Trolls Paranoia.


You got your chocolate yoghurt in my peanut butter flavored soda.

Then you clearly missed the near two-decades of non-stop debating/arguing/nerdzerking over d20-system issues that Savage Worlds eliminates completely.

But some people like peanut-butter flavored soda.

D&D *isn't* a system - if that were the case the OSR wouldn't exist, nor any other D&D-fantasy pastiche (WHFRP, Mythras, etc). It's a genre of fantasy that can be done with other systems to better fidelity. Speaking of which - this is the first real entry of that brand of fantasy as a direct design from a D&D brand. That's why it's important.

Because Savage Worlds is now open to the literal entirety of D&D Fantasy using this as a roadmap.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: palaeomerus on July 18, 2021, 03:41:01 AM
"Then you clearly missed the near two-decades of non-stop debating/arguing/nerdzerking over d20-system issues that Savage Worlds eliminates completely."

No, I mostly just dismissed it as decades of wanky EN World piffle along the same lines as " ur waifu is a shit".

And don't get me wrong, I like Deadlands but SW isn't anymore of a miracle than GURPS or FUDGE. Or Silhouette, or Interloc/Fuzion, D6, BASIC RP, etc. I kind of wonder why they are so into the card thing, or why they seem to produce more and more expensive editions of their main rule book. I do like their old fashioned stuff like Solomon Kane as well and their tasteful genre parody stuff like Nemezis is kind of neat.

The pathfinder case is different to me because people like Necromancer games/Frog God were porting some their stuff to Pathfinder as a flavor of D20.

Before that a hole lot of properties were doing some flavor of D20 seeing it as the big kahuna place to be, and that includes Dream Pod Nine who were doing D20 conversions, and the Starwars license when WotC got it from WEG. Hell FFG is trying to push Genesys as their generic system that power Starwars and they alsoput Android and Terrinoth backgrounds out for it. Monte Cooke did his Cypher thing starting out with Numenara and expanding it with some minibackgrounds, and a sliders/Amber clone. Free League has their system that they used for Forbiffen Lands, and their weird Stranger Things like Loop stuff and their take on the old Mutant  game Year one, and a Firefly type thing called Coriolis. You have Fate doing their "deluxe monetized F.U.D.G.E." thing for vapid "let's beat up cthulhu because grrls are awesome and we'll whine about how racist HP Lovecraft was while we raid his public domain grave for clout and free money" nonsense and now their "edgy" Tumblr web comic Utenna grotesque.

But there were D&D compatible companies doing stuff for SW before this. Savage Mojo put out Dungeonlands for both pathfinder and savage worlds. Deadland had a D20 version. I think there were other crossovers too though I can't remember any. I know there was a savage setting with a fantasy world that broke into floating islands and I some people at the FLGS were doing a version of it in True 20 that they cobbled together.

So again it seems strange and brand cannibalistic to me though not unprecedented.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 18, 2021, 08:11:25 AM
No, I mostly just dismissed it as decades of wanky EN World piffle along the same lines as " ur waifu is a shit".

So does that mean you dismissed any criticism of your waifu, or that any criticism of the d20 system is akin to waifu hate?
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on July 18, 2021, 04:42:52 PM
"Then you clearly missed the near two-decades of non-stop debating/arguing/nerdzerking over d20-system issues that Savage Worlds eliminates completely."

No, I mostly just dismissed it as decades of wanky EN World piffle along the same lines as " ur waifu is a shit".

Are you implying all editions of D&D are the same? Or they're free of the issues that are incessantly talked about? Because that would put you in the extreme minority. And if you didn't understand that it may not be an issue for you - it clearly is for many other people. As I'm actually older than Anime writ-large, I certainly have problems with certain stripes of D&D editions - some of which I did design-work for in-depth. But it took those experiences to realize what was wrong with the mechanics. To each their own etc. Clearly it's an issue to a lot of people. Otherwise all these other systems wouldn't even exist.

And don't get me wrong, I like Deadlands but SW isn't anymore of a miracle than GURPS or FUDGE. Or Silhouette, or Interloc/Fuzion, D6, BASIC RP, etc.

Precisely no one has made any claim any of these systems are a miracle. The only claim I'm making is Savage Worlds has none of the issues that D&D has, generally, across their editions. And mostly they're issues that crop up from 3.x onward. (But mostly 3.x).

Savage Worlds in particular, has its own issues, but they are ridiculously less impactful than D&D's are by direct comparison.

I kind of wonder why they are so into the card thing, or why they seem to produce more and more expensive editions of their main rule book. I do like their old fashioned stuff like Solomon Kane as well and their tasteful genre parody stuff like Nemezis is kind of neat.

I'm not a fan of the card-thing either. But it's something I've learned to accept. It is an interesting mechanic in the sense that it offers randomization (for their tables) that adds an extra dimension based on the suit. The best aspect of it is: it's just a deck of cards. They're not some special kind of deck made specifically for the game - like custom dice. I can take it or leave it.

As for their more expensive editions - they could no longer print at the cost of their Explorer Editions with their printer. Prices have gone up. It's become more cost-effective to raise their price with their current edition but provide better production. They earned it off the back of their very successful cheap Explorer Edition which cause their ruleset to proliferate. It was good marketing then, it's better now. Would I like a soft-cover version of SWADE? Fuck yeah. But it's a cost issue. Today's market ain't the same as 18-years ago (yeah let that sink in - it's been almost 20-years since their last edition).

The pathfinder case is different to me because people like Necromancer games/Frog God were porting some their stuff to Pathfinder as a flavor of D20.

Before that a hole lot of properties were doing some flavor of D20 seeing it as the big kahuna place to be, and that includes Dream Pod Nine who were doing D20 conversions, and the Starwars license when WotC got it from WEG. Hell FFG is trying to push Genesys as their generic system that power Starwars and they alsoput Android and Terrinoth backgrounds out for it. Monte Cooke did his Cypher thing starting out with Numenara and expanding it with some minibackgrounds, and a sliders/Amber clone. Free League has their system that they used for Forbiffen Lands, and their weird Stranger Things like Loop stuff and their take on the old Mutant  game Year one, and a Firefly type thing called Coriolis. You have Fate doing their "deluxe monetized F.U.D.G.E." thing for vapid "let's beat up cthulhu because grrls are awesome and we'll whine about how racist HP Lovecraft was while we raid his public domain grave for clout and free money" nonsense and now their "edgy" Tumblr web comic Utenna grotesque.

Yeah? And? The big difference here is 1) Quality of scale 2) curation of content.

While individually we could discuss the pro's and con's of each system - broadly speaking very few of those systems possess the scaling fidelity coupled with the ease of mechanical performance that Savage Worlds does. It hits the right level of moderate crunch, with *very* little fiddling to model normal activities as well as cataclysmic Kaiju-level combat with less than a simple modifier. The numbers are small, makes for extremely easy task-resolution. It gives enough narrative room for GM's and Players to get creative while underpinned by mechanical rules that support the narrative rather than simply run separately on a parallel track. It is a testament to the fidelity of the system that what started out as a supernatural Wild-west game, also handles hard-core sci-fi, horror, fantasy, supers, cyberpunk, noir *all at the same time* without missing a stride.

Can other systems do it? Sure. The question becomes how difficult is it to manage within the constraints of those systems. I prefer "less doing more". Others may want GURPS - which certainly qualifies as being able to "do all things". I would submit the barrier for entry on some of those systems are a LOT higher for the GM than Savage Worlds. The curation of content in Savage Worlds seems to be better among its users recommendations too. Sure there is crap out there - but not like in 3rd Party D&D. But that's to be expected based on the scale of playerbase.

But there were D&D compatible companies doing stuff for SW before this. Savage Mojo put out Dungeonlands for both pathfinder and savage worlds. Deadland had a D20 version. I think there were other crossovers too though I can't remember any. I know there was a savage setting with a fantasy world that broke into floating islands and I some people at the FLGS were doing a version of it in True 20 that they cobbled together.

So again it seems strange and brand cannibalistic to me though not unprecedented.

But the difference, again, is one of scale. Traditionally Savage Worlds rarely did settings that were "genre-center". They are all quirky. Deadlands is not just a Wild West game (but it could be.) Hellfrost is not just a D&D pastiche setting (but it could be). Weird Wars II is not just a historical rpg (but it could be). The point being with a couple of rare exceptions, SW was not trying to emulate traditional genres that already existed, but rather they put out pulpy weird settings that you could emulate traditional settings with a few dials turned down. They DO have some traditional settings: Shaintar would be a good example of a D&D kitchen-sink game, but their rules ultimately veered away from the standardization they were percolating that would become SWADE.

The problem is of course all those 3rd party books that did crossover with d20 - were doing so to get a piece of the d20 pie within the d20 realm. Savage Pathfinder is not that. Savage Pathfinder as with Savage Rifts is the attempt to tap into those established fanbases to bring them over to Savage Worlds. So fans can actually see their favorite settings running on a different chassis, expressed in different ways *with fidelity* to the concepts established within those native systems.

And it's working. You'll never find a more die-hard fanbase than Palladium fans (possibly only eclipsed by Warhammer fans - but that edifice is cracking under the Woke assault). Yet Palladium fans are driving new blood into the Savage Worlds gamingsphere. And it will have the same effect with Pathfinder fans - especially those that soured on PF2e.

For Savage Worlds fans - many of whom already DIY do D&D-based fantasy games simply by curating rules from various products+core, this is a windfall as it gives a solid foundation on the SWADE platform to do D&D fantasy while keeping on with the DIY ethic of SW GM's, to now grab all their decades of D&D material and convert it over - because for us *it plays better*.

I don't have to have 4-page stat blocs for my 20th level characters, with excel spreadsheet driven combat matrices to keep track of how many attacks I have with what bonuses I'm getting based on which weapons are in my hand, and what Feats modify what weapon in what hand, and what bonuses change based on multiple classes I might have. BLEARGH.

Here's the rub - in Savage Worlds you can play ultra-high level gaming with ridiculous god-mode level power WITH EASE. No one really does that in D&D because it's a fucking headache to manage. Not so in Savage Worlds. In fact it's trivial.

Many people playing Savage Worlds that have never played Savage Rifts aren't even aware of this. The starting Savage Rifts character is *RADICALLY* more powerful than normal Savage Pathfinder character. By D&D standards it would be like starting at 15th level or higher, and you're *barely* scratching the surface of the game. With the pieces in your hands you can now run with greater fidelity those epic campaigns that D&D promises, but systemically fails to support without tremendous effort on the GM's, and do it with ease.

That's something that Savage Worlds offers to both native SW fans, and new D&D fans alike that few other systems can do without far more effort.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: palaeomerus on July 18, 2021, 08:45:42 PM
I'm implying that decades of variations of "my dad can beat up your dad" system wars is worth dismissing. There is no objective result just sides thinking what they think real hard. And yeah I dismissed the waifu stuff too because Misa Hayase is best waifu.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: palaeomerus on July 18, 2021, 08:54:18 PM
No, I mostly just dismissed it as decades of wanky EN World piffle along the same lines as " ur waifu is a shit".

So does that mean you dismissed any criticism of your waifu, or that any criticism of the d20 system is akin to waifu hate?

Both, though I don't think the D20 rules family is special (well it occupies a special position in the market and 'history' as a brand but not special unto itself), just that when people go after a system on a forum and expect that to decide an issue for other people it is the neurologic equivalent to people going after a waifu. People tend to play what they like or what they know as far as crunch goes.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 18, 2021, 08:59:20 PM
Both
Im not sure I agree with the mindset that discussion of system merits, lacks any merit. I have discovered and evolved taste through debate.

Also all waifus are shit. Its a really shit overplayed joke akin to referencing the cake is a lie in 2020.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: palaeomerus on July 18, 2021, 09:11:09 PM
Sus
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 19, 2021, 08:15:31 AM
I'm implying that decades of variations of "my dad can beat up your dad" system wars is worth dismissing. There is no objective result just sides thinking what they think real hard. And yeah I dismissed the waifu stuff too because Misa Hayase is best waifu.
Additional data needed for scientific analysis :D

Jokes aside, yeah, the only thing more annoying than edition warring is caliber arguments.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Batjon on July 19, 2021, 11:45:29 PM
My katana can beat up your sword! Katanas are BEST swords.   8)
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 20, 2021, 12:00:50 AM
Anyway as for myself: Largely what tenbones said.

I have been trying to get D&D trappings to work with other systems for a while now. They where either too complex, or too simple, or too ridgid or too flexible, or unfinished for my purposes and would require a TON of work on my end.

Savage Worlds was the close but fell into the 'would need me to put a ton of work' problem. With SP it hits enough of all my sweetspots.

Its Point buy/level hybrid that emulates classes but still lets it be flexible. Its point buy, but also has space for money. Its also simple but not ULTRA simple. Its generally reliable but with space for swingyness. It covers from low->high levels.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on July 20, 2021, 12:19:47 PM
My katana can beat up your sword! Katanas are BEST swords.   8)

Ironically - I was just having this discussion with one of my players last night. Katanas in SP is not good to me.

It's 1d6+1 damage and two-handed. UGH.

Everyone knows it should be 1d20 and AP20.

Seriously I think it should be 1d8 and +1 if used two-handed (not unlike their Bastard Sword). If I were being really picky - I'd give it 1d8 AP1 vs. Light armor. 1d6 vs Heavy armor.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on July 20, 2021, 12:23:49 PM
Its Point buy/level hybrid that emulates classes but still lets it be flexible. Its point buy, but also has space for money. Its also simple but not ULTRA simple. Its generally reliable but with space for swingyness. It covers from low->high levels.

AND... class-edges are optional. If you wanna be a SW purist, you can, and ignore the Class Edges altogether.

I'm still very IFFY about their porting over the Armor limitations in the Class Edges simply to balance them vs. Pathfinder. I'm considering other options. I get why they did it (to make PF players feel "at home" and to keep "balance" vs. other Edges) but I think they could have done it differently... like dropping those things altogether and make Class Edges Seasoned to start. It would require shifting things in terms of later Class Edge bonuses... might be too much hassle.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 20, 2021, 01:39:17 PM
I'm still very IFFY about their porting over the Armor limitations in the Class Edges simply to balance them vs. Pathfinder. I'm considering other options.

Same agreement. First off Im saying the penalties only effect the class features, not everything ever. You don't go from being a fighter to a rogue and suddenly suck at being stealthy in armor after being stealthy.

Alternatively Im willing to replace armor penalties with drawbacks.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Jaeger on July 20, 2021, 04:20:08 PM

Before that a whole lot of properties were doing some flavor of D20 seeing it as the big kahuna place to be, ... I think there were other crossovers too though I can't remember any. I know there was a savage setting with a fantasy world that broke into floating islands and I some people at the FLGS were doing a version of it in True 20 that they cobbled together.

So again it seems strange and brand cannibalistic to me though not unprecedented.
...

The problem is of course all those 3rd party books that did crossover with d20 - were doing so to get a piece of the d20 pie within the d20 realm. Savage Pathfinder is not that. Savage Pathfinder as with Savage Rifts is the attempt to tap into those established fanbases to bring them over to Savage Worlds. So fans can actually see their favorite settings running on a different chassis, expressed in different ways *with fidelity* to the concepts established within those native systems.

And it's working. You'll never find a more die-hard fanbase than Palladium fans (possibly only eclipsed by Warhammer fans - but that edifice is cracking under the Woke assault). Yet Palladium fans are driving new blood into the Savage Worlds gamingsphere. And it will have the same effect with Pathfinder fans - especially those that soured on PF2e.
...

All d20 Fantasy games suffer from two very big issues:

1: They are not D&D

2: Post 2009 - They are also not Pathfinder.

Nobody cares about the even more gonzo setting versions of D&D and PF. Especially if they are not getting the same level of 'support' published for them that you see with PF and D&D.

And no one cares about your non d20 rules based die pool/die step/d100 fantasy game. Why?

1- Not D&D 2- Not Pathfinder.

This is why I actually am Pro Savage Pathfinder; because it gives Established fanbases a reason to try a non-d20 system in a context that is acceptable to their IP centric view of the hobby.

I am of the view that having the Number 1 & 2 top selling RPGs systems both being d20 D&D is not good for the long term growth and retention of people in the hobby.

Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: palaeomerus on July 20, 2021, 05:21:15 PM
My katana can beat up your sword! Katanas are BEST swords.   8)

Ironically - I was just having this discussion with one of my players last night. Katanas in SP is not good to me.

It's 1d6+1 damage and two-handed. UGH.

Everyone knows it should be 1d20 and AP20.

Seriously I think it should be 1d8 and +1 if used two-handed (not unlike their Bastard Sword). If I were being really picky - I'd give it 1d8 AP1 vs. Light armor. 1d6 vs Heavy armor.

Alright, I am only responding to this because I am conditioned to cry out that a katana is just a bad large sabre with poor hand protection but is still kind of impressive when you think about how bad the iron they could get in Japan was for sword making. When you can make a pretty okay sword out of metal you wouldn't want to make pots out or durable farming gear of with a lot of bodge-y "Deal with this crap because you have no other choice" technique that is notable, and when the thing becomes a cherished vexillary signifier of samurai status as one by one the samurai were forbidden to carry their preferred weapons while in public for show or self defense then you can see where the mystique comes from. And yeah in fantasy most people are interested in the legendary version of something with which a hero smote down a wyrm, not the crude banal whatsit that inspired it. Nobody wants their fantasy to be mostly be about bills, leather hats with an iron bar across the top, sharpened sticks, and shillelaghs.

200 years from now people might be wondering why we though whirling mono-molecular wire around with a special glove would be cool. Surely that would not even slow a knife missile down. PSI as a weapon? HA HA No! It just helps you not feel pain when you get remote telepresence dental work. Or something.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Ocule on July 20, 2021, 10:21:01 PM
My katana can beat up your sword! Katanas are BEST swords.   8)

Ironically - I was just having this discussion with one of my players last night. Katanas in SP is not good to me.

It's 1d6+1 damage and two-handed. UGH.

Everyone knows it should be 1d20 and AP20.

Seriously I think it should be 1d8 and +1 if used two-handed (not unlike their Bastard Sword). If I were being really picky - I'd give it 1d8 AP1 vs. Light armor. 1d6 vs Heavy armor.

Alright, I am only responding to this because I am conditioned to cry out that a katana is just a bad large sabre with poor hand protection but is still kind of impressive when you think about how bad the iron they could get in Japan was for sword making. When you can make a pretty okay sword out of metal you wouldn't want to make pots out or durable farming gear of with a lot of bodge-y "Deal with this crap because you have no other choice" technique that is notable, and when the thing becomes a cherished vexillary signifier of samurai status as one by one the samurai were forbidden to carry their preferred weapons while in public for show or self defense then you can see where the mystique comes from. And yeah in fantasy most people are interested in the legendary version of something with which a hero smote down a wyrm, not the crude banal whatsit that inspired it. Nobody wants their fantasy to be mostly be about bills, leather hats with an iron bar across the top, sharpened sticks, and shillelaghs.

200 years from now people might be wondering why we though whirling mono-molecular wire around with a special glove would be cool. Surely that would not even slow a knife missile down. PSI as a weapon? HA HA No! It just helps you not feel pain when you get remote telepresence dental work. Or something.

Katana isn’t just a bad saber, it’s a decent enough weapon and I’m a little bit impressed that they figured out how to make a good blade with subpar steel. Though funny enough if you use the same method on good steel you weaken it because you work out all the carbon.

In terms of effectiveness swords kind of sucked versus armor in general and were the ancient equivalent of carrying a pistol. But since this is fantasy the long sword is probably the best bet in terms of gaming statistics.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on July 21, 2021, 10:57:55 AM
and hence I acknowledge both the fictional and fantastic. +1 AP vs. Light armor. And 1d6 vs. Heavy armor.

That's not a big deal. I don't ascribe to the the Magic-Katana thing either. I'm not that guy (and I'm part Japanese! heh). But you know, this is a long established gripe fighting against the anime-historian generation of Highlander fans.

Katana are good swords for what they're designed for, as a *sidearm*. They're not made to fight as a primary weapon against western plate and chain armor. There are puh-lenty of videos from Skallagrim, Metatron, Shadiversity etc. etc. covering this.

But for fantasy gaming - katana don't necessary suffer from "iron quality", hell, or even design. It's the "idea" of a sword-reverent culture that captures our imaginations that people really like. Much like the Jedi in in fiction. I think it's a shame that the reverence for the sword isn't more emphasized in European fiction but that's also why we need to create our settings to represent this sentiment.

I'm not *particularly* interested in trying to be realistic in my fantasy games, but there is definitely wiggle-room depending on the context of the setting and game.'

I do feel there is this emergent resentment about the katana as a weapon as a result of the ludicrous mythologizing of the weapon. Which is understandable - but they're biased too.

Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Ocule on July 21, 2021, 11:04:51 AM
and hence I acknowledge both the fictional and fantastic. +1 AP vs. Light armor. And 1d6 vs. Heavy armor.

That's not a big deal. I don't ascribe to the the Magic-Katana thing either. I'm not that guy (and I'm part Japanese! heh). But you know, this is a long established gripe fighting against the anime-historian generation of Highlander fans.

Katana are good swords for what they're designed for, as a *sidearm*. They're not made to fight as a primary weapon against western plate and chain armor. There are puh-lenty of videos from Skallagrim, Metatron, Shadiversity etc. etc. covering this.

But for fantasy gaming - katana don't necessary suffer from "iron quality", hell, or even design. It's the "idea" of a sword-reverent culture that captures our imaginations that people really like. Much like the Jedi in in fiction. I think it's a shame that the reverence for the sword isn't more emphasized in European fiction but that's also why we need to create our settings to represent this sentiment.

I'm not *particularly* interested in trying to be realistic in my fantasy games, but there is definitely wiggle-room depending on the context of the setting and game.

Yeah but if you’re going to do that then all weapons need to have damage or ap vs armor types. With maces and hammers having extra ap vs rigid armor, swords being more effective against unarmored or lightly armored opponents and axes somewhere in the middle. Spears should be the most balanced plus reach and glaives should grant a defensive bonus.

You’ll also have clear winners and losers when it comes to weapons vs armor and space needed.

Anything you do to the katana should also be done to all swords of similar weight and dimensions. Which would be bad but savage worlds fans may object to applying different damage values based on the armor it’s rarely done mechanically. Hell most people i know ignore the ballistic damage rules for Kevlar.

Note: I used to practice kenjutsu before I started up with HEMA I found a lot of overlap between the two weapons. The katana is notably shorter and lacks a cross guard, mechanically that’s about the only significant difference even the single edge and it’s slight curve aren’t that noticeable. In terms of martial practice there is a bunch of overlap and some interesting conclusions in both styles. Example katana practitioners rarely would ever parry or allow the blades to bite into each other. With a long sword you tend to make more use of the whole sword, and beat it to all hell.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: DocJones on July 21, 2021, 12:17:51 PM
Yeah but if you’re going to do that then all weapons need to have damage or ap vs armor types. With maces and hammers having extra ap vs rigid armor, swords being more effective against unarmored or lightly armored opponents and axes somewhere in the middle. Spears should be the most balanced plus reach and glaives should grant a defensive bonus.
Savage Rolemaster Arms Law?  8)
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on July 21, 2021, 12:57:29 PM
Yeah but if you’re going to do that then all weapons need to have damage or ap vs armor types. With maces and hammers having extra ap vs rigid armor, swords being more effective against unarmored or lightly armored opponents and axes somewhere in the middle. Spears should be the most balanced plus reach and glaives should grant a defensive bonus.

Nah. I don't have to do any of that. That's my point (and the beauty of SW being so easy to tweak with small numbers). I mean... if I leave it as it is, the Magical Katana is still pretty good. 1d6+1 can't be understated. It's WEIRD on its face in Savage Worlds, or at least it's uncommon. The thing that glares out at me more than anything is the fact they made it Two-Handed. That is more egregious than anything whether you're a katana-fanboy or someone wanting historical realism.

The abstraction mechanics contextually to the system are already pretty solid. It's not meant to be too granular. So giving katana 1d6+1 is already a bit of an oddity when trying to differentiate a katana from other long-blades. I'd have been happy if they just gave it the same stats as a longsword. SW is supposed to be about tropes - so I understand the need to differentiate.

Yes that means putting a pinch of "myth" into the mix.

Spears - I'm a huge spear fan. But the reality of the spear historically, is it is an easy weapon to manufacture, and the greatest benefit of it is its reach. I have this thing called the Spartan Test which is "Can I emulate a cinematic Spartan using Spear and Shield with this system to my satisfaction?" - and so the system has to represent that. I think Savage Worlds passes with flying colors. The assumption of the weapon is of course by itself it has reach and that means the system has to leverage the Reach quality to satisfaction. Well with an Edge like First Strike (and improved First Strike) it certainly does. In the context of the abstraction of combat it gives you +1 Parry when using two-hands. Which is fair. I personally think the damage is probably a little light... but the system gives you a plethora of spear-alternatives which satisfies my needs. Boar Spears, Ranseurs, Glaives, etc. which could mechanically all be reskinned to represent anything special I want represented.

Ironically - if you want to min-max, the Maul is a *super* awesome weapon. AP2 AND +2 to destroy objects? Dude, that's a shield/armor/weapon destroying monster. Plus it does huge damage.

You’ll also have clear winners and losers when it comes to weapons vs armor and space needed.

You already do. It's called damage output. The benefit of having small numbers is that it's easy to ballpark the effectiveness of your weapon of choice. Coupled with inherent weapon abilities (AP, Reach, Ignoring Shields, Parry bonuses) on top of whatever your schtick is - it's *really* easy to see the winners/losers. But that's how it should be. I appreciate a system that will allow a PC to take unconventional weapons to new useful levels. Called shots for instance in the hands of a skilled PC makes even basic low-damage weapons very dangerous. And it's totally possible to leverage that reality which makes Thieves/Assassin ambush PC's *extremely* dangerous with their otherwise lighter weaponry. Vs. just being damage multipliers in d20 where HP sponge-factor renders it very much less optimal.

Armor in SW is pretty basic stuff. It's literally a 4-bonus range that rarely deviates from that. The rest of the consideration is Shields, Fighting Skill and overall Toughness. 

Anything you do to the katana should also be done to all swords of similar weight and dimensions. Which would be bad but savage worlds fans may object to applying different damage values based on the armor it’s rarely done mechanically. Hell most people i know ignore the ballistic damage rules for Kevlar.

Nah. It's already largely done. Dude a Bastard Sword is superior to the Magical Katana in almost every way you can slice it. The katana RAW already has a weird damage value - simply to justify it's unique place in historical-fantasy minds. I mean you COULD get that granular, I see precisely zero mandate to do so since I feel for what SW is trying to do, it already does that.

Note: I used to practice kenjutsu before I started up with HEMA I found a lot of overlap between the two weapons. The katana is notably shorter and lacks a cross guard, mechanically that’s about the only significant difference even the single edge and it’s slight curve aren’t that noticeable. In terms of martial practice there is a bunch of overlap and some interesting conclusions in both styles. Example katana practitioners rarely would ever parry or allow the blades to bite into each other. With a long sword you tend to make more use of the whole sword, and beat it to all hell.

Yep. And SW isn't, has never, will never try to be that granular. Remember it's supposed to represent some general baseline of what people consider fun. The degree to which we want that granularity inserted into the game, the system is more than flexible to add that without wholesale changing everything.

You could for instance say Katana gives you -1 Parry. But the reality of it is people are taught to not use a katana that way in its traditional use. Plus lets face it, its not fun. But nothing prevents you from getting that granular and detailed. It doesn't mean a knight that picks up a katana and started using it like a Longsword (and fucking up the blade) would necessarily require a change of the weapon stats. In fact, this would be my argument of making "less changes" than effective tweaks.

I'm working on martial arts Edges (eastern and western), and this is something worth considering that weapon schools might give these kinds of penalties as a form of balance - so a kenjutsu school might give you -1 Parry for some other cool benefit as a byproduct of how they use their weapon of choice.

Worth consideration.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: palaeomerus on July 21, 2021, 05:22:39 PM
Yeah but if you’re going to do that then all weapons need to have damage or ap vs armor types. With maces and hammers having extra ap vs rigid armor, swords being more effective against unarmored or lightly armored opponents and axes somewhere in the middle. Spears should be the most balanced plus reach and glaives should grant a defensive bonus.
Savage Rolemaster Arms Law?  8)

Y'all just made me dribble a little bit of Dr Pepper on my shirt. Heh!
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6Ug5F2VVbZ0/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on July 22, 2021, 08:42:06 AM
Savage Rolemaster Arms Law?  8)

Conveniently they have that all contained and condensed on one chart. SW is gonna SW.

SW has little subsystems for just about everything.

Mass Combat rules - the entirety of the rules cover anything from a fight larger than the party to literally millions of combatants fighting in a back-alley (if you want) or fleets of starships slugging it out over your planet. And the rules fit on 1.5 pages. They include and encourage individual PC (and NPC) actions during the siege which allows PC's to attempt to stand out on their own merit and do cool shit.

Networking - Want to PC's to find information in with RP and use of their skills in an interesting and fast way? Networking rules lets you do it in a quick easy manner leveraging everything from fast-talking your way through the process, or tossing money around, or cracking skulls without bogging your game down ala CP2020 Netrunning. Plus it let's PC's that otherwise wouldn't consider themselves "social" do it in very "anti-social" ways and produce solid results (as well as springboards for possible side-adventures!). These rules are a single page.

Quick Encounters - Want to do an encounter (perhaps as a flashback) without having to run the entire encounter and eat up current gametime? The Quick encounter sub-system let's you have your PC's engage in a scenario using their skills checks as delineated by the GM to resolve a scenario quickly without getting down-n-dirty if only to establish results for exposition where the outcomes are unknown. This is super-useful for, again, not eating up game-time but establishing interesting and cool facts from the past, or doing fast and dirty scenes which leverage the PC's own abilities to establish the outcomes of something moderately important - like in order to pull off a larger heist the PC's must acquire <X>. Where <X> is in the home of some powerful NPC. Now you could play it all out - or Quick Encounter it. It has a *pseudo* Blades In the Dark feel, where you can let a PC(s) do this scene with a few die-rolls according to the parameters set by the GM rather than play it all out - if it would exclude the rest of the party. 2-page sub-system. EASY.

Social Combat - Effectively it's using rules for doing a 3-round social combat system for changing the opinions of important people in any social encounter. Good for trials, heavy social-gathering scenes, speeches and rallies and you want to have a little more depth than a single Persuasion or Intimidate or Performance roll. This gives some real ebb-and-flow.

... and wait there's more! There's like half-a-dozen other little subsystems that plug directly into the game including Downtime, Interludes, and tons of stuff to keep the game flowing without getting too bogged down in minutiae. (I personally like a lot of minutiea - but the fun part here is you can do it all when it serves the game without losing momentum or breaking stride.)
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 22, 2021, 10:34:12 AM
The biggest issue I've had with Savage Worlds is that Hero's Journey rolls don't always mesh well with the character as created.

Case in point is my Rifts 'borg, who rolled Scrounger as a free Edge but who really lacks the attributes to do it well (since such Networking attempts are gimped by his Charisma penalty).
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on July 22, 2021, 11:04:10 AM
The biggest issue I've had with Savage Worlds is that Hero's Journey rolls don't always mesh well with the character as created.

Case in point is my Rifts 'borg, who rolled Scrounger as a free Edge but who really lacks the attributes to do it well (since such Networking attempts are gimped by his Charisma penalty).

I kind of treat Rifts like Supers. I work with players and generally let them choose stuff that they want. I want players to play what they want to play and leave the random stuff to be things that happen in-game.

Of course there's always exceptions to the general rule, I'm not a big fan of total random chargen. Heroes Journey definitely is something I think is cool - but I still exercise some knudge-room whether it means make multiple rolls and pick best option(s), or just saying screw it - pick your choices, and let me ratify it. Boom! let's rock.

Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: HappyDaze on July 22, 2021, 04:41:37 PM
The biggest issue I've had with Savage Worlds is that Hero's Journey rolls don't always mesh well with the character as created.

Case in point is my Rifts 'borg, who rolled Scrounger as a free Edge but who really lacks the attributes to do it well (since such Networking attempts are gimped by his Charisma penalty).
Biggest issue I've had with Savage Rifts is stacking flat modifers. Some things become almost impossible to succeed (or fail). Ever try shooting a SAMAS doing a high-speed strafing run? A -5 (or worse) even at short range can make for very frustrating combats. Unless the attack roll aces, you miss more than a starting WFRP character. OTOH, there are a lot of targets that simply can't be hurt by even heavy weapons unless there are aces on the damage roll. I found the need to have rolls ace just to have any chance of success is not fun.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: oggsmash on July 23, 2021, 08:57:01 AM
The biggest issue I've had with Savage Worlds is that Hero's Journey rolls don't always mesh well with the character as created.

Case in point is my Rifts 'borg, who rolled Scrounger as a free Edge but who really lacks the attributes to do it well (since such Networking attempts are gimped by his Charisma penalty).
Biggest issue I've had with Savage Rifts is stacking flat modifers. Some things become almost impossible to succeed (or fail). Ever try shooting a SAMAS doing a high-speed strafing run? A -5 (or worse) even at short range can make for very frustrating combats. Unless the attack roll aces, you miss more than a starting WFRP character. OTOH, there are a lot of targets that simply can't be hurt by even heavy weapons unless there are aces on the damage roll. I found the need to have rolls ace just to have any chance of success is not fun.

   Aiming and targeting mods in power armor remove a great deal of the difficulty in shooting a moving SAMAS.  I do agree about armor penetration relative to weapons, as well as how they work.  In general, I swap out many instances of rail guns to auto cannons (from Sci fi companion) and other instances of rail guns to heavy cannons.   I also changed the rail gun to be a semi auto matic weapon with higher damage and a great deal more armor penetration (since the whole point is to penetrate armor).  I try to scale off of an average shot from a UAR-1 SHOULD harm an average glitterboy pilot.  As rail guns are now, the UAR-1 will not hurt the glitter boy on an average shot with a medium rail gun.   Nor would it hurt another UAR-1 with an average shot.  Change the UAR-1 main weapon to a cannon that has mulitple ammo load outs (AP, regular, and high explosive) and an AP shot (which to me is 1.5 times regular shot AP). Now the weapon (with AP 30 and dmg of 4d10 will hurt a glitter boy pilot on an average shot, and come in just shy of shaking up a UAR-1.  In cases where I leave the weapon a "rail" gun I keep the damage and raise the AP to double its value.   This makes the pea shooter on that same UAR-1 into a weapon with 28 AP and doing 3d12+3 damage.  Again on average hurting a glitter boy pilot and just under the threshold to damage a UAR-1 on an average shot.    I have yet to see how these work out in a battle with a bunch of armor, but it seems to make more sense for me if something like a UAR-1 has a decent chance (roll good damage with no aces) to cause real damage to another UAR-1 with the main weapon systems on board.   A tank that has little to no chance of damaging another tank with its main weapon system is pretty useless.

   I have not had any big battles with armored vehicles yet, so those changes could break some aspects of the game, I have only toyed with the math and tweaked. 
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on July 23, 2021, 01:39:27 PM
Well I think all of this is why Benny's exist. Flat comparison of the numbers I *assume* would produce a "less than average" comparison simply because of the fact that Bennys now are so flexible in upping Hit or Damage numbers.

Anyhow-

Been working on some stuff.

The issues I have with SWPF has nothing to do with Savage Worlds - rather it has to do with the fact they're translating Pathfinder itself to Savage Worlds.

- Clerics as healbots. Never liked it. Still don't like it. This is a total Pathfinder thing where they amped 3.x gameplay to the wrong direction. I'm in the process of creating a different Cleric class that is tied more intimately to the Gods and their Domains. Not *all* Clerics will be Healers, or rather if they do they may have Trappings that may not be desireable for others. Plus I want more distinction between Clerical orders in terms of their actual abilities. As such I'm going to likely put a list of Powers under each Domain so that the Gods in question will grant their Clerics a choice depending on their Portfolios in lieu of "Channel Healing" and shit like that. I'm also going to do a Deity-level writeup on codes of conduct so players have a solid idea of what is expected of them. My goal is to design it like the Faiths and Pantheons books from 2e D&D Forgotten Realms which were *excellent*.

- Pathfinder material in general. It's garbage design beyond the core stuff. Just looking at the endless nit-picking tiny-number advances for weak results makes most of their PRC's mechanically boring. Their distinctions are so petty that most of them are rendered moot by just using the normal Savage Worlds Edges and core task-resolution mechanics.

- I find myself looking more to 1e and 2e D&D inspiration for design goals. I'm working on the Cavalier and Samurai now.

- Interestingly, the effort I'm doing on Clerics, makes me want to take a crack at Warlocks from 5e. It occurs to me a more faithful rendition of the idea of a transactional relationship with a supernatural entity could totally work with a Pact Sub-system, vs. a Cleric that is a calling.

- I find Bards are *super* under-rated in discussions I've been having with Savage Pathfinder people. They are insanely useful as the ultimate "support" class but quite capable on their own. Contrary to some reviews that say they seem to be "combat oriented" - I merely point to the fact that Performance as a dump-Trait for them is *INSANELY* powerful and useful in social situation and downtime. I can see this class shining brightly in the hands of a player that is very active.

- Considering using the Grim and Gritty rules from Savage Rifts for high-end play where PC's can start modding their spells (and even gear) to have the Heavy Weapon/Armor quality. This will be the starting foray into Mega Damage encounters that should raise some eyebrows.

Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on July 23, 2021, 08:29:58 PM
Well I think all of this is why Benny's exist. Flat comparison of the numbers I *assume* would produce a "less than average" comparison simply because of the fact that Bennys now are so flexible in upping Hit or Damage numbers.

Anyhow-

Been working on some stuff.

Maybe we can put our differences aside and work together? (Not that there where any differences anyway but it sounds better that way)

Because I agree with many of your ideas.
Title: Re: So...Savage Pathfinder is out...
Post by: tenbones on July 23, 2021, 10:03:56 PM
LOL I didn't think we had any differences!

We're just talking shop.

Bennies were a big issue for me when I got started in SW a few years ago. I'm leery about mechanics not cooked into the direct gameplay "narrative" mechanics as it were. But I found there is definitely a tempo of play when you get the Benny-economy rolling and the players get past the "Hording" mentality, which unintuitively is resolved by GM's actually rewarding more Bennies.

As someone that fully understands the static-number assumptions of Savage Rifts, it's far more pronounced there due to the overwhelming powerlevels (and higher numbers) than in other Savage Worlds games. That's why I feel that if anyone can get Rifts done right at their table (which isn't hard at all) - then anything is possible in Savage Worlds.

The Benny system is probably the most important system to master. It can be tuned up or down and produce drastically different tones in the game. I consider this a feature not a bug. The issue is learning when to tune it up or down and mastering that economy. It's not difficult, but it takes a few games to get down.

Edit: as for my changes to the SWPF rules - when I'm comfortable with them, I'll post them up for everyone to pick apart. I'd value the the extra eyes on them.