Quote from: Werekoala;566181Therefore, we could say that the Irish are probably LESS inclined to drunkeness than others, because of their lifelong experience tipping the bottle. This would, of course, invalidate the stereotype.

Hahaha, but no, less alcohol per capita means less alcohol per capita. Not less inclined to being shitfaced.

Quote from: Werekoala;566178When people ask me what my background, my heritage is, I tell them I'm German/Irish. I invariably follow that up by telling them that my idea of a good weekend is to get drunk and invade small countries. I, of course, have never been to Germany or Ireland, nor have I invaded a small country (not in real-life anyway, but I do get drunk a lot), being a born-and-rasied citizen of the United States, but I say it nonetheless.

Does that make me racist? No, it makes me hilarious, and self-deprecating, and also shows the use of stereotypes - not racism.

From the Science News article Fighting Stereotype Stigma: Studies chart accuracy, usefulness of inferences about social groups:

QuotePsychologist Yueh-Ting Lee received an electronic mail message several years ago that included some barbed observations about the quality of life in several countries. "Heaven is a place with an American house, Chinese food, British police, a German car, and French art," Lee's correspondent wrote.

"Hell is a place with a Japanese house, Chinese police, British food, German art, and a French car."

While these national stereotypes fall short of absolute truths, asserts Lee of Westfield (Mass.) State College, they are accurate enough to give the aphorism its humorous punch. Houses in the United States indeed boast more space, on average, than Japanese dwellings. A Chinese inn probably holds greater culinary potential than a British pub.

In this respect, stereotypes, rather than representing unjustified prejudices, typically function as thought-efficient starting points for understanding other cultures and social groups, as well as the individuals who belong to them, Lee holds.

"Stereotypes are probabilistic beliefs we use to categorize people, objects, and events," Lee proposes. "We have to have stereotypes to deal with so much information in a world with which we are often uncertain and unfamiliar."

Many psychologists find this opinion about as welcome as a cut in their research grants. They view stereotyping as a breeding ground for errant generalizations about others that easily congeal into racism, sexism, and other forms of bigotry.

See also the overview of how the complaints about stereotypes measure up to research on them in this chapter from the book mentioned in that article.  Lee Jussim's has other articles he's published on stereotype accuracy online at his web site here.

Quote from: jhkim;565880While there are different ways to approach the issue - one way that does not work is just taking and using stereotypes straight from old fiction.

Out of curiosity, what's your opinion about Mongoose's Conan game and presenting the Hyborian Age based on Howard's work?  As you are aware, I do think it's fair to call Robert E. Howard a racist and his work certainly has some racist steroetypes in it regardless of how someone feels about him, personally.  Do you think it would be best to avoid publishing such settings, modernize them a bit to minimize or eliminate the racist stereotypes, or something else?  Since the role-playing hobby has some affection for the pulp genre, this question has relevance beyond simply Conan because racist stereotypes (such as the Fu Manchu stereotype already mentioned) are pretty widespread in classic pulps.

I'm fine with saying that harmless, non-racist, and/or accurate stereotypes exist.  I'm fine if an evaluation of Golarion says that the stereotype use in it is not racist.  I've just started playing in Golarion now, and I haven't had any issues with it so far - but I'm currently only using the Pathfinder Beginner Box to run games for my son and nephews.  

However, some people seem to be going further and arguing that any complaints about racist stereotypes are inherently wrong.  I completely disagree. There are many racist stereotypes that are real and have serious negative effects.  

Quote from: John Morrow;566201See also the overview of how the complaints about stereotypes measure up to research on them in this chapter from the book mentioned in that article.  Lee Jussim's has other articles he's published on stereotype accuracy online at his web site here.

I've now read the chapter in the first link (1995 Jussim et al).  It concentrates on knocking down straw men - like the dismissal of racism in stereotypes on page 11.  Most of the points addressed in this whole section have no attribution at all, and the minority that do are citations from the 1960s at the latest.  

Sure, not every stereotype falsely attributes a genetic component to the trend.  That doesn't mean that racist stereotypes don't exist.  The authors in principle acknowledge something like this, saying "Although ethnocentrism undoubtedly sometimes influences evaluations (e.g. Campbell, 1967), it is premature to conclude that even stereotypes about personality necessarily reflect ethnocentrism."  

This goes back to my point.  I contend that stereotypes like the lying thieving gypsy, the greedy Jew, Sambo and pickaninny, and others really are problematic - even if some other stereotypes are not problematic.  I think you agree with me in this, John, but it seems like people keep implying that there are no problems in stereotypes.

Quote from: John Morrow;566204Out of curiosity, what's your opinion about Mongoose's Conan game and presenting the Hyborian Age based on Howard's work?  As you are aware, I do think it's fair to call Robert E. Howard a racist and his work certainly has some racist steroetypes in it regardless of how someone feels about him, personally.  Do you think it would be best to avoid publishing such settings, modernize them a bit to minimize or eliminate the racist stereotypes, or something else?  Since the role-playing hobby has some affection for the pulp genre, this question has relevance beyond simply Conan because racist stereotypes (such as the Fu Manchu stereotype already mentioned) are pretty widespread in classic pulps.

I'm familiar with Mongoose's Conan game, and while I'm fine with playing it as is, I'm not comfortable with how they handle it.  In the game, they have attribute modifiers and included skills for close parallels to real-world race.  So, for example, if you are a Shemite, you get bonuses to lying and evaluate the price of items (along with archery and other skills).  I think that the game authors softened Howard's views regarding Africans, so they don't have lower Int scores, say.  Still, in short I don't like it.  

I dislike bowdlerization in general - by which I mean covering up and editing out the most extreme racist parts, giving the impression that the original wasn't really racist.  It wouldn't be the commercial thing to do - but if I were doing such a game I would be up-front that R.E. Howard was racist, explicitly acknowledging that and differentiating my game from that.  Rather than taking the races straight (i.e. Shemites are good at lying and money handling), I might drop the idea of race mechanics completely.  Instead, I'd have pure background description that included common outsider stereotypes about each race along with their own view of themselves - then let players select appropriate background options for how they view the character.  i.e. Is their Shemite good with money like the stereotype, or not good?  This didn't come up in my Conan run since I used pregens that were all the same race (Cimmerian),

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/brawnythews/

I'm not much of a game designer, but this is in general how I handle old source material.  For example, at Gen Con I'm running a larp where the characters are all pulp villains including Fu Manchu, Professor Moriarty, The Shadow's enemy Shiwon Khan, Tarzan's foe Zanaka, and others.  By making these the central characters, even though I'm mostly staying true to their nature as written in the original, the game definitely works as a tongue-in-cheek commentary on the pulps, I think.  

I've also been running a steampunk game with my weekly group recently using the FATE edition of the Kerberos Club.  One of the things I like about Kerberos Club is that it at least takes some distinct steps towards highlighting the class bias in Victorian fiction.  (Moreso than some other steampunk games like Castle Falkenstein or Space 1889.)

IIRC, the Meadow Shemites have different skill bonuses then the Shemites, which begs the question is a "racial bonus" a genetic bonus or a cultural bonus?  Even if it seems to be a genetic bonus, is it really just natural selection, ie. Vanir selecting for Strength and the hand-eye coordination to wield swords while Shemites who live in ancient huge cities select for the ability to move through that society?  Most of the skill bonuses stuff I see as cultural, so a Shemite raised by Vanir for example would be a better swordsman then a liar.

I do think they could have varied things up a bit, for example differentiated the Asshuri culture from the rest of Shem, and more strongly associated the bonuses with Culture rather then Race.

I think Mongoose did a decent job of walking the line between staying true to the setting and avoiding the obvious racism of the creator.

Also did Howard claim the Shemites the greatest liars because they are Proto-Jews or are they the greatest liars because they are the most civilized of the Western countries and thus must be the most deceitful and corrupt?  It's really hard to tell when his central Barbarian vs. Civilization theme crosses over into 1930's Badlands-of-Texas-Brand racism.  Except when dealing with the Black Kingdoms, then his racism is obvious and pathetic to behold.

I'm not a fan of mongoose Conan's racial ability score and skill modifiers, and find some of them distasteful.

Quote from: jhkim;566212This goes back to my point.  I contend that stereotypes like the lying thieving gypsy, the greedy Jew, Sambo and pickaninny, and others really are problematic - even if some other stereotypes are not problematic.  I think you agree with me in this, John, but it seems like people keep implying that there are no problems in stereotypes.

I think and assume that many on this list would agree with you about some or all of those stereotypes.

However labeling someone or something as racist has become as politically charged as being labeled a "red" during the Red Scare. It is very effective for character assassination and damaging credibility for whatever special agenda the labeler has, and so readily and regularly used nowadays that it provokes counter-response, even if there is some agreement.

Well, part of the problem, is the problem of racism varies from person to person.

You could show that picture of a Zulu warrior to a group of people, and get different responses from each. One would think him "a Noble Savage, defending his land from Imperial oppression", another would look and say "It's a historical Zulu Warrior, in typical dress", another would say "It's an African displaying their inferred inferiority, in loincloth and pointed stick" (or worse, but I feel dirty enough just for writing what I did...).

Is the depiction racist? No.
Is how people react to it? Quite possibly.

Some stereotypes are inherently racist. Not every Jew is greedy. Not every Asian is good at math. Black people do not bear the Mark of Cain.

The problem becomes taking a good hard look at yourself, and determining if something is inherently racist, or if your own bias makes them racist.

JHKim remember though this thread isn't "No Stereotypes in RPGs are Racist", it's "Is Golarion Racist?" based on awfulpurple.

The claim was made that Golarion was racist based on stereotypes, with some people's arguments basically sounding like all stereotypes are automatically racist (Hello McGuy).

I don't think anyone was claiming "no stereotypes are racist", but instead were saying "using a sterotype in RPG world creation isn't inherently a racist act".

Quote from: CRKrueger;566358JHKim remember though this thread isn't "No Stereotypes in RPGs are Racist", it's "Is Golarion Racist?" based on awfulpurple.

The claim was made that Golarion was racist based on stereotypes, with some people's arguments basically sounding like all stereotypes are automatically racist (Hello McGuy).

I don't think anyone was claiming "no stereotypes are racist", but instead were saying "using a sterotype in RPG world creation isn't inherently a racist act".

Well, I haven't read any of this on RPGnet because, well, RPGnet.  So I'm only responding to what I see here, and I'm trying to qualify to see if we actually disagree.  

I am fine with the use of stereotypes in, say, the Imaro stories (in fiction) or in GURPS Voodoo (in RPGs).  Examples I am uncomfortable with include the Sahudese in GURPS Fantasy, gypsies in World of Darkness: Gypsies, and various races of Mongoose's Conan RPG.  

Given that many people aren't familiar with these products, I'll add in a hypothetical.  A hypothetical person makes an RPG setting, and the black people in that setting generally conform to stereotypes from old fiction like Conan, Tarzan, and other old adventure fiction.  This is propagating racism.

Quote from: jhkim;566391A hypothetical person makes an RPG setting, and the black people in that setting generally conform to stereotypes from old fiction like Conan, Tarzan, and other old adventure fiction.  This is propagating racism.

That one I'll agree with.  

Been a long time since I've read any Burroughs, but Howard at least has some alluded to depth in the Black Kingdoms with tales of ancient kingdoms with cities of stone and temples of gold and ivory rising out of the jungles etc, but the only real blacks we see in the stories are the savage Corsairs of Belit and the tribesman Conan attacks to save a white woman. To be fair Conan probably would have turned on a Vanir or Aesir band he was with doing the same thing, but it's painfully clear that's not why Howard was writing that.

Anyway, my point is, there's enough threads in the setting for you to weave African kingdoms with actual depth and still be 'Sword and Sorcery" or "Conanesque".

Of course if you didn't, and stuck to the most basic examples, yeah, you'd be showing yourself to be pretty ignorant.

Quote from: The Traveller;566180The stereotyping of Irish people as drunks began, or more properly found its fullest expression with the "scientific racism" of the 19th century, as the rulers of the English cast about themselves for ever more creative means to dehumanise perceived enemies.

I grew up around a lot of drunken young Irishmen on the University of Ulster campus at Jordanstown. My mother saved the lives of several, when their drunken-ness caused them to walk through plate glass doors (then go to sleep with blood pouring from their wounds), fall into the freezing-cold stream in winter, etc.

Yet I never saw them as less than human.

Quote from: Werekoala;566181Therefore, we could say that the Irish are probably LESS inclined to drunkeness than others, because of their lifelong experience tipping the bottle.

No, it's the opposite - the cultures that drink most (Italians, southern Germans, French) are the least likely to get 'roaring drunk'. The English think they have a drunkenness problem*, and they do compared to the French etc, but much less than the Irish. The usual pattern is that the longer a group has been exposed to alchohol, the better they tolerate it.

*I was at a University in England, an English academic lamented the drunken behaviour of the students. I laughed, and explained that compared to what I had seen from southern-Irish students in Ulster, his supposed rowdy behaviour was incredibly sedate.

Quote from: S'mon;566525I grew up around a lot of drunken young Irishmen on the University of Ulster campus at Jordanstown. My mother saved the lives of several, when their drunken-ness caused them to walk through plate glass doors (then go to sleep with blood pouring from their wounds), fall into the freezing-cold stream in winter, etc.

Yet I never saw them as less than human.

Note the ape-like facial features of the Irish on the right, and look at the message, lazy, free-loading, waiting for a hand-out while the real Americans worked.  All the racist stereotypes leveled against minorities in America today by hate groups were initiated and used against minorities back then...who were immigrant european whites.