I can´t put my finger on it, but Lucas screwed up in ways I cannot really verbalize.

Take the Mos Eysley Cantina: It was totally a gonzo Mexican-Western Bar brawl scene. Including badassery and cheesy dialogue.

Compare to the Coruscant Diner scene: It was a totally gonzo American Graffitti-Diner investigation scene. Including old boys meeting, a robo-waitress and cheesy dialogue.

But the second scene just sucked so hard I cringe everytime I see it.

Dunno why, something is wrong with the gonzo in the prequels.


Anyone more insightful in that regard?

What I´m trying to say:

In an analytical way, the ingredients are all there, and sometimes there are ultra-sweet moments:

Obi-Wan against Darth Maul!
Obi-Wan against Jango Fett!
The line: "Boba, close the door!"
Sebulba!
Sebulba´s Pod Racer!
The sound of Sebulba´s Pod Racer!
Clone Troopers are all dumbed down Boba Fetts!

But there are so many shitty moments, that don´t work although the ingredients are the same gonzo stuff as is fitting for Space Opera.

The two headed announcer at the Pod Race. WTF?
The bulby eyed attack vehicles. WTF?
Jar-Jar Binks. WTF?
Middle-Ear-Indians. WTF?
Chewbacca´s cameo. WTF?
etc.

I can´t really understand why some stuff works for me, whereas the others are so insulting and stupid.

Quote from: SettembriniDunno why, something is wrong with the gonzo in the prequels.


Anyone more insightful in that regard?

I'll give it a shot.

The original trilogy was a fantastic blend of the ancient and futuristic. Technology seemed to be slightly run down or worn out, the old order that supported the political structure was a fading memory shrouded in myth. There was a sense of historical placement that arose from the juxtaposition of a robed wizard hiring space-faring smugglers in a fantasy tavern. It felt like you were watching something that hinted at immense backstory and epic struggle, played out on the fringes of the wilderness.

Dex's diner had none of that. Everything is bright, shiny and new. Moreover the characters (Jedi included) have adopted a modernist outlook wholesale, right down to the attempted snappy dialogue and facial tics. Mysticism has been reduced to the tropes of a detective story, presented against a backdrop that seems to have sprung to gleaming life only a day earlier. There's no real sense of scale or legacy. The audience feels like they could be watching a scene from any number of films, dressed up with cgi and robots. Most of the the epic, poetic things that were hinted at in earlier instalments are now set in a universe of burger bars, poster boys and "This is why I hate flying."

Modernism. I think that's where GL went critically off track.

Quote from: SettembriniI can´t put my finger on it, but Lucas screwed up in ways I cannot really verbalize.

How about starting with record grossing films, billions of delighted fans world-wide.  Having made a multi-billion dollar empire out of his vision.

I mean come on people, you think you know better than George?  Love the movies for what they are, good clean fun...if it's not enough for you, move on to something that does trip your trigger.

Really, all these arguments are old.

Quote from: DrewModernism. I think that's where GL went critically off track.

I'll have to respectfully disagree. The modernism in the prequel trilogy is there for a reason -- to highlight the run down nature of the original movies. The historical influences are very obvious, right down to the art deco style of some of the movie. Before the Empire came, it was the roaring twenties, Weimar republic style. Now, the Empire is twenty years later...

I have to say that the production design of the prequels was very, very good and had a certain Star Wars  je ne sais quoi. You saw that everything was not as utilitarian, while you could recognize the origins of some pieces of technology.

But oh my, plot and dialogue...
I have to say that it got better every movie and Episode III was actually quite enjoyable, sans Anakin of course.
(Hayden Christensen isn't as bad as some make him seem, but IMHO the age bracket just was wrong.)

Quote from: DrewModernism. I think that's where GL went critically off track.

Maybe. But I always felt that there was a level of cyncisim which engulfed the prequels that was compounded by generally bad directing. There was also the fact that Lucas had to compete with the "new kids" and wasn't really up to the challenge. All this could have been avoided if Lucas  handed the project over to the new kids - who frankly seem to understand the themes of the trilogy better than Lucas ever did.

The good thing about the prequels is that it reminded me that there is still stories to tell.

Regards,
David R

QuoteLove the movies for what they are, good clean fun...if it's not enough for you, move on to something that does trip your trigger.

I am argueing exactly that. I loved the Pod Race, I can live with Anakin, and the Gungans. But there are scenes in the prequels, that let the rollercoaster come to a screeching halt, and have stuff like Chechen Mimes doing a Teletubby re-enactment with a Pinata stuck to their navel walk in them.

How come there are such totally bungled scenes built from the mixture of gonzo that was totally awesome in the first movies?
Heck, I even love the two Ewok movies, they don´t have these strange moments of totally random uncoolness.

Loved the first two movies, and really enjoyed parts of the third.  The prequels...nothing sticks with me from them at all.  What happened to the prequels began appearing in RotJ, when Lucas starting aiming more for kids and marketing.

The original movies were more about story enhanced by SFX.  The prequels were all about SFX with an attempt at a story squeezed into the gaps.

What did the OT have that the prequels lacked?


Swagger.

And, of course, a charming, roguish Everyman.

And the weapons/ships were cooler.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!What did the OT have that the prequels lacked?

Snipped pic of Solo...

Swagger.

And, of course, a charming, roguish Everyman.

Yes...and they also had...wait for it....

Han. Shot. First.

Actually, to bring this back to role-playing...I enjoyed the Clone Wars animated mini-series...I could dig a campaign revolving around that...

Quote from: rcsampleHan. Shot. First.

In my house, this is law.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!In my house, this is law.

I wonder if I could get the Village Board to put an amendment into our ordinances, I could just see it now....

Ordinance 3 - Section 23, Sub-Section 144:  Public conversation regarding Star Wars (see Sub-Section 100 re: No public acknowledgement of Star Wars as "A New Hope"), specifically the Mos-Eisley Cantina Scene, more specifically the Han Solo/Greedo conversation scene, is limited to, and not soley to, references to the afformentioned characters and the resolution to their disagreement as "Han Shot First". Any references to the specific instances of shooting in that scene that are not in line with "Han Shot First" are unrecognizable and will be punishable on mentioning by a light-saber to "The Junk". (A foot/boot to "The Junk" is an acceptable substitute.)


Anyway, before the apologists pile on,  I would just like to take this opportunity to thank George Lucas:

Thanks, George, for giving life and coming up(or borrowing them creatively) with the ideas of Darth Vader, The Force, The Cynic, The Farmboy, The Princess, The Death Star and mixing them all up in a great gumbo, that was delicious to my young palate.

Thanks, George, for the Original Trilogy, where you realized your limitations as a script/screenplay writer and let competent people come up with snappy dialog and do some polishing of your ideas.

Thanks, George, for the Original Trilogy, where you were too young and new to be surrounded by "Yes Men", who would tell you that your Prequel doesn't stink and Jar-Jar was a good idea.

Thanks, George, for the Original Trilogy, where the word Original meant Original not "No really, this third version of Star Wars, the one where I change plot points under the guise of "inadequate Special Effects of the time", and then change them back when there is a hue and cry but will probably change them again when I feel a disturbance in my cash flow or ego".


Rich

Quote from: rcsampleHan. Shot. First.

You guys are all being unnecessarily harsh on Lucas.  I just re-watched our DVD copy of the revised "A New Hope" last night, and I'm now convinced that Lucas changed the scene to underscore just how completely bad-ass Han Solo really is.  It apparently didn't show up very well in theaters, but if you pop in the DVD, slow down the frame rate, then zoom in above Han's left shoulder, you'll notice a small fly hovering near his ear.  The fly arcs upward, the blaster bolt appears from Greedo's gun, and -- yes, you guessed it -- the fly is incinerated.  Meanwhile, Han misunderstands the gesture of concern (and/or bravado) and totally greases Greedo where he sits.  He then gets up like nothing happened...all over a fucking fly!

It's totally hardcore, much moreso than the original scene, and Lucas knew this.  That fly had been bugging the shit out of him ever since the original print was screened, and he turned that little mis-chance to his advantage.  Life gave him lemons, and he made lemonade.  And you guys complain about it.  Sheesh.

!i!

Guys,

Part of the point of this thread is gaming.

The original series is vastly more gameable, because it's not all about the jedi wire fu.

Non-jedi characters hold their own, the jedi are one option among many cool options, it's an incredibly gameable universe.

The prequels, not so much, if you're not a jedi you pretty much suck.  The jedi are vastly more powerful, full of wire-fu and mass force punch and power leaps and all, Han Solo would be an irrelevance.

That's the point, the prequels are shite movies but the point in this thread is that they are shite gaming too, while the original series makes for great gaming.