TheRPGSite

This evening.

It's not as I recalled it.

Firstly, it's actually a pretty good film.  But It's much more SFy, it's all droids, spaceships, computer hacking by R2-D2, alien worlds and sense of wonder stuff.  The jedi are a minor part, key but minor.  Obi-Wan works the famous mind trick but otherwise the force basically allows a bit of throttling by DV and otherwise is almost entirely a form of extra-sensory perception.

The mood is Chanbara based, no wuxia at all, none.  There is very little continuity with the other movies, it is expressly mentioned that Princess Leia's father is part of the resistance and is on Alderaan (and it is strongly implied he dies there when it blows up), there is absolutely no possibility of her being

Luke is clearly sexually attracted to Leia, and it implies she may be to him also, she kisses him at one point and otherwise seems a bit tempted by both him and Han.  She's plainly not Luke's sister.  

There is no concept that jedi must build their light sabers, Luke is given his father's.  It seems that's pure extended universe stuff.

Basically, it's a really good swashbuckling/chanbara movie set in space, the jedi have very low key powers and so don't remotely overshadow the other characters as they do later.  It's actually, and this is why I'm here and not in off-topic, much more gameable than the later movies and the prequels because the jedi just aren't the Mary Sues of the setting yet.  It's fast moving sf action, and much more fun for it.

Interesting stuff, almost all Star Wars canon is utterly absent, no wookie life debts, no midichlorians than christ, it seems very unlikely in this one that DV is Luke's father because his father really is spoken of in a way that suggests he genuinely is dead.  Later it all gets retconned of course, but here it works much better for being much simpler.

Oh, Greedo shot first in this version, it works really poorly as a scene as for some reason he misses a shot across a table instead firing rather randomly into the air.  It's not a well amended scene, leaving aside any other issues of characterisation.

Darth Vader mentions Luke building his own light saber as a final test in ROTJ, so it's not just EU...

I'll have to agree with the general tenor of the post, though. Lots of the stuff that got added in TESB was clearly not present in ANH, although some of that might be an artifact of editing...

I did the same, watching all three movies the last week after a rather long pause, although SW is about the only thing I can drop my cynicism long enough to be called a fan of. And even the original version kinda stood the test of time, compared to other science-fiction material. There aren't that many artifacts of the 70s in there and the production design is still one of the best around, something Lucas couldn't exactly repeat.

Yes, but Obi-Wan does hesitate quite noticeably in SW:A New Hope when Luke asked about his father.
 It literally looks like Kenobi is thinking "Oh shit what do I tell him ? or not tell him" for a second or two there.

- Ed C.

It's a movie that stands on its own, but also is sufficiently ambiguous (why does Obi-Wan do X?  What does it mean when Vader does Y?) that later movies can expand on what was happening in the first, without invalidating what it is on its own.  Spiffy!

I sort of wish that more movies that aren't part of series would do that.  There's this unfortunate tendency to want to give the audience all the answers ... and I actually like movies (like Big Trouble in Little China) that just throw in little glimmers of cool stuff beneath the surface, in a way that says "Yeah, we could spend ten minutes exploring and explaining this ... but instead ... Kung Fu!"

I'm with Koltar on this one, whatever Obiwan said was obviously intended as a lie.  Also, I think it's pretty naive to think Luke couldn't be sexually attracted to their sister he never knew they had.

Since Lucas basically cribbed the "I am your father Luke" bit from Kirby's New Gods which came out years before StarWars I think he had it in mind from the beginning.

All I know is that when I went to see it in 1977 it was called Star Wars.
That's it, no New Hope or Episode IV crap! :mad:

Its sequel is probably one of the best sequels ever though the standard dropped with the second sequel. :D

Balbinus, I find your lack of faith...refreshing.

Regards,
David R

Star Wars (AKA ANH) worked because it was a big ramshackle adventure story with a thousand influences. It also worked because Lucas and his team had to expend real ingenuity building the sets and models (put together out of bits of Airfix stuff and so forth).

Everything since SW is just a watering-down of that original idea. Unsustainable in my view. The new films strike me as flat--flat as the CGI.

Quote from: David JohansenAlso, I think it's pretty naive to think Luke couldn't be sexually attracted to their sister he never knew they had.

I don't think a pulp adventure movie intentionally included an incest subplot.

In real life that could happen, in this genre not so much.

Having seen the early drafts (Luke Starkiller?)--either I am very, very misled as to the authenticity of that stuff--or he didn't have anything particular in mind from the beginning ...
-Marco

Quote from: Marco-or he didn't have anything particular in mind from the beginning ...

Star Wars was made up as George went.  I think in these days Lucas tries to convince us he had big plans from the start, but all the evidence and "behind the scenes" information pretty much proves that the first movie (at least) was simply made up as george went.  Despite having movies beyond that planned, the details were never worked out untill right before production started.  Things like the love story between Han and Leia were "added" by the director before the second film.  I think the only real plan that was hashed out was that Vader would be Lukes father.  And I doubt if even that was set in stone when the first movie was being filmed.

As far as the OP :eek: I watch all the SW movies once or twice a year...I couldn't imagine going 20 years!  What were you thinking?

Quote from: BalbinusI don't think a pulp adventure movie intentionally included an incest subplot.

In real life that could happen, in this genre not so much.

Except it's not an incest subplot it's a fake out for the actual romance.  Luke's a very safe proxy for a competitor for Leia's affections.  Nothing happens, nor would it in this genre.  But a mixed up romance with twins?  That's older than Shakespear.

The only thing better than Star Wars is The Empire Strikes Back, and the only thing better than that s watching them with your 2-year-old daughter.

My belief is that Lucas did have a lot of things in mind to steal, errr use.  But no, Luke could never have been the actual love interest for Leia.  The guy with the destiny isn't supposed to get the girl.

Constructing a lightsaber as a "final test?"

Last I checked, Luke constructed his own 'cause he lost the first one. And the hand that was holding it. Down a bottomless shaft that opens out into... sky. Ouch.

Quote from: beejazzConstructing a lightsaber as a "final test?"

Last I checked, Luke constructed his own 'cause he lost the first one. And the hand that was holding it. Down a bottomless shaft that opens out into... sky. Ouch.

[igniting Luke's saber]
Vader: I see you have constructed a new lightsabre. Your skills are complete, indeed you are powerful as the Emperor has foreseen.
Some people interpret "Your skills are complete" to mean that lightsaber construction is the "final test" that completes training. The implication being, all REAL Jedi build their own lightsabers.

I prefer the earlier implication that lightsabers are bestowed but in RotJ what authority figure could meaningfuly bestow a second lightsaber? (And how would you cram that subplot into an already crowded script?) I don't like it as a GM but I can see why it was done from a director's standpoint.

Quote from: malleus arianorum[igniting Luke's saber]
Vader: I see you have constructed a new lightsabre. Your skills are complete, indeed you are powerful as the Emperor has foreseen.
Some people interpret "Your skills are complete" to mean that lightsaber construction is the "final test" that completes training. The implication being, all REAL Jedi build their own lightsabers.

Another possible implication of the same statement is that Luke just built a lightsaber without assistance. Which is, in fact, impressive... especially considering all the Jedi everywhere are dead. With whatever traditions there were that would have judged the criteria for completion of training. I always figured it simply implied that Luke was really really competent or had somehow found out about his Jedi heritage on his own.

In either case, I see it kind of reversed. It's not "You built a lightsaber, therefore your skills are complete" so much as "Your skills must be complete, if you know how to build a lightsaber." It indicates an arcane body of knowledge that Luke shouldn't really have access to, considering... again... the whole dead Jedi thing.

Gah! Overanalyzing!

My take on it is that it's two seperate statements.
1. I see you have constructed a new light saber.
(You've got the guts to fight me again?)

2. Your skills are complete, indeed you are powerful as the Emperor has foreseen.
(You're more powerful than before and as powerful as you'll ever be but still nothing more than a pawn to the Emperor.)

Anyway, I think there are plenty of plausable interpretations but unfortunately the idea that lightsaber construction = Jedi graduation seems to have taken on a life of it's own, probably because the daydream that creating a real life lightsaber makes someone a real Jedi is pandemic amongst fans. ;)

Quote from: beejazzGah! Overanalyzing!

Feh. Calculating the fallout on Endor caused the the destruction of DS II, or determining the amount of freighters needed to bring food to Coruscant and how much of the sky that would cover, now _that_ is overanalyzing. ;)

Yeah, but SW has a fairly low threshold for overanalyzing since so much of it is fiction rather than science.

Quote from: malleus arianorumYeah, but SW has a fairly low threshold for overanalyzing since so much of it is fiction rather than science.

Certainly. Technical overanalyzing really doesn't get you anywhere with Star Wars. It's not like you can just jump up and say "My Excel sheet proves you wrong, Mr. Lucas!", as the series never had delusions of grandeur when it came to technical details. Which makes the midichlorian debacle all that much worse...

I always thought Darth Vaders line about the lightsabre implied that yes, even for Star Wars technology a lightsabre is a seemingly impossible device (not as curde etc.), so not just its use but the construction requires someone strong in the force. Luke having done that shows that his finesse in the force now equals his raw power. Turning that into a test that every Padawan has to go through extrapolates a little too much. Although it fits in nicely with the fact that every Jedi seems to have a lightsabre and is scholed in its use, even if they might be pacifistic healers most of the time.
Passing down lightsabres makes lineage more important, whereas someone building their own stresses the enlightenment part.

Also, Siegfried forging his own sword might have influenced the script writers, being all Campbellian and stuff.

Quote from: grubmanStar Wars was made up as George went.  I think in these days Lucas tries to convince us he had big plans from the start, but all the evidence and "behind the scenes" information pretty much proves that the first movie (at least) was simply made up as george went.  Despite having movies beyond that planned, the details were never worked out untill right before production started.  Things like the love story between Han and Leia were "added" by the director before the second film.  I think the only real plan that was hashed out was that Vader would be Lukes father.  And I doubt if even that was set in stone when the first movie was being filmed.

Yep, it's the big fat bluff at the heart of the Star Wars mythology, and has given rise to all sorts of fannish contortions and EU nonsense.

I have a friend who simply refuses to believe that Star Wars didn't emerge fully formed in GL's brain one wet afternoon. The irony is that he uses this as a stick to beat the prequel trilogy with, arguing that Lucas was hoodwinking the fans all along, cackling maniacally as he waited to unleash the midichlorians when the stars were right.

There's no fanatic like a disappointed fanatic, I suppose. Personally I enjoy the films (even the new batch), although I treat them as an evolving space fantasy story that has been retconned numerous times by it's own creator. It's far less stressful, that way.

The Original Movies opened up a whole Universe, hinting, just showing the plethora of awesome vastness that is the SW Galaxy.

The Prequels made the Universe much, much smaller. Too small for me to be inspiring anymore.

Quote from: MarcoLuke Starkiller

And they didn't keep this name... why? Why? :eek:

Quote from: MelanAnd they didn't keep this name... why? Why? :eek:

"Luke Skywalker" is more likely to get the very important Viking demographic to go see the movie.

Quote from: MelanAnd they didn't keep this name... why? Why? :eek:

Too much of a giveaway?

Luke 'Son-of-Vader-and-Destroyer-of-Death-Stars' McJedi is such a mouthful.

*shrug* SW should have ended with TESB. The old school special effects greatly contributed to the immersive experience. I mean for me at least not many films these days do this well...not even LotR films. The films that come to mind at the moment who do this really well are Alien, Bladerunner ...more recent examples Pan's Labyrinth, City of Lost Children...

The series should have ended with the farm boy tongueing his sister, discovering who his father is and then getting his hand cut off...and the coolest character in the films encased in ice. The last shot of Empire really sets up the scene for limitless possibilities...like the shot of the Falcon escaping form the space dock on Tattoine in the first film.

Regards,
David R

Then thank Eris that George Lucas may have many sins, but following the artsy-fartsy "open ending" school isn't one of them...

Quote from: David R*shrug* SW should have ended with TESB.

If that's your fancy, just stop watching there.

The beginning and ending of the story are yours to control.  Dip in wherever you want, and stop watching when the moment seems right.  It's just like eating a meal:  Just because they put the Jumbo-Mega-With-Cheese on your plate doesn't mean you have to eat it all.  You stop when you've had enough.

Personally, I like having the options of stopping at the end of tESB (which, I agree, is a cool ending point for one sort of story) or of turning the television off only after the jubilant celebration of freedom and salvation at the end of RoJ.  I'd have been bummed if they never made a third movie ... It wouldn't have improved the former experience, and it would have denied me the latter.

Tony is right on all accounts.
Although the Prequels didn´t inspire me, I was happy to see some new take on the franchise. New stuff means more to choose from.

Choice and diversity are good.

Quote from: David JohansenI'm with Koltar on this one, whatever Obiwan said was obviously intended as a lie.

No, I never got that impression at all, even back when I first saw it in 77. Obi-Wan's hesitation seems like just the natural hesitation anyone has when talking about something painful or someone they miss who is long dead. There is no hint of a lie in his storytelling in that scene. In retrospect, after seeing all the other movies, I see how it could seem that way. But remembering the original when it was the only movie, and taking it on its own with no other context in which to place it - Obi-Wan is not hesitating due to trying to concoct a lie. He's just reaching back across the gulf of years to remember things and people he hasn't spoken of in a long while.

Quote from: TonyLBIf that's your fancy, just stop watching there.

Exactly.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: SettembriniChoice and diversity are good.

Yet, unfortunately, a limitless font of spiritual pollution.

I also rewatched the original recently (I happen to have the DVD with the un-CGI'd version on the bonus disc! Hurray!) and what I noticed in the scene where Obi-Wan was talking about Luke's father was that Luke's father is clearly supposed to have been Luke's age (at most) when he met Obi-Wan, and that the Clone Wars were meant to be ongoing at that point - Obi-Wan clearly says that Skywalker Senior left Tatooine because he couldn't stand by and watch the Clone Wars unfold without him.

There's not a hint of "your dad was a scraggy kid that I adopted because of his bloodline." :P

What I found funny re-watching the series was how they had to bend over backwards for the "Your father already was a great pilot when I met him" comment Obi-Wan made in ROTJ. Hard to make that prophecy come true when they decided that Anakin starts out as a little kid.

There's a deleted scene from right before the final battle in the original movie, in which Red Leader tells Luke he had once met his father.

QuoteRED LEADER: I met your father once when I was just a boy, he was a great pilot. You'll do all right. If you've got half of your father's skill, you'll do better than all right.

The tone of the line, perhaps combined with back-calculation from Red Leader's apparent age (forty-something) doesn't fit with subsequent "revelations". When the scene (which involves Luke meeting his old friend Biggs) was restored in the Special Edition version of the movie, a trick was used to remove the line.

I liked the practical FX from the orginal trilogy alot more than the CGI FX of the Prequels.

"LESS is MORE" in this case.

Quote from: WarthurI also rewatched the original recently (I happen to have the DVD with the un-CGI'd version on the bonus disc! Hurray!) and what I noticed in the scene where Obi-Wan was talking about Luke's father was that Luke's father is clearly supposed to have been Luke's age (at most) when he met Obi-Wan, and that the Clone Wars were meant to be ongoing at that point - Obi-Wan clearly says that Skywalker Senior left Tatooine because he couldn't stand by and watch the Clone Wars unfold without him.

There's not a hint of "your dad was a scraggy kid that I adopted because of his bloodline." :P

And when you combine stuff like that with the appearance of Vader at the end of RotJ, you get the picture of a once noble knight falling from grace, that I always liked.

Instead when the prequels hit, we got a whiny, petulant little emo-kid.  That, more than anything, is what pissed me off about the prequels.  The destroyed the potential of Vader's character, and then, as if the further humiliation wasn't enough, Lucas went and injected that miserable little shit into the ending scene of RotJ.

I'm convinced that a lot of his characterization of Vader and Boba Fett in the movies were purely for the reason that Lucas felt people weren't supposed to like those characters, or think they were cool, as so many did, so he responded by writing their backstories in such a way as to make them look as utterly unsympathetic as possible.

Quote from: J ArcaneAnd when you combine stuff like that with the appearance of Vader at the end of RotJ, you get the picture of a once noble knight falling from grace, that I always liked.

You know there's a line in TESB or RotJ where Yoda goes "do not underestimate the Emperor or suffer the same fate as your father". There was something omnious about that. Something that led me to believe that pride had it's place of honour in Vader's fall and that there was something deeper more menacing to the Emperor than being just evil. All that changed after watching the prequels and to a certain degree RotJ...IMO off course.

QuoteI'm convinced that a lot of his characterization of Vader and Boba Fett in the movies were purely for the reason that Lucas felt people weren't supposed to like those characters, or think they were cool, as so many did, so he responded by writing their backstories in such a way as to make them look as utterly unsympathetic as possible.

And I'm convinced that you are onto something here. Lucas is the chap that said it was easy to elicit an emotional response from the audience - all you had to do is show a character throttling a kitten.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RLucas is the chap that said it was easy to elicit an emotional response from the audience - all you had to do is show a character throttling a kitten.

But what if you're force-choking the kitten?

"I find your neotonous features ... disturbing."

Quote from: TonyLBBut what if you're force-choking the kitten?

"I find your neotonous features ... disturbing."

Okay that's funny Tony :D ...but don't rain on my anti Lucas parade :brood:

Regards,
David R

This is about the point in a thread I pop in to say that I love Star Wars.  Love all the movies, love the comics, love the novels, love the RPGs.

fans, so called "fans", anti-fans, and the people that over-analyze what is just a whole bunch of fun and entertainment...are the things that I don't like about Star Wars

Now this is the point where veryone ignores what I said.;)

Quote from: TonyLBBut what if you're force-choking the kitten?

Now, you see, I initially read that as "force-choking the chicken" and, well... :talktothehand:

!i!

Quote from: grubmanThis is about the point in a thread I pop in to say that I love Star Wars.  Love all the movies, love the comics, love the novels, love the RPGs.

fans, so called "fans", anti-fans, and the people that over-analyze what is just a whole bunch of fun and entertainment...are the things that I don't like about Star Wars

Now this is the point where veryone ignores what I said.;)

Not me. It's pretty much how I approach it.

Except for the EU stuff, of course. I could never really get into Thrawn, the Yuzaan Vong (sp.?) and all that malarkey. The few times I did try it always felt like overwrought fanfic.

I was too young to watch either Star Wars or Empire at the cinema when they were first released (I saw them when re-released).  But I was there when Jedi was released... opening night.  There were queues around the street! :eek:
 
And I was there on opening night for The Phantom Menace.  I remember the excitment and the anticipation.  I remember the way the audienced cheered when the movie started and the theme music began.  I also remembered the sickening feeling in my stomach when I slowly began to realise "This sucks".
 
Some people claim that the new trilogy is just as good as the old.  And that I remember the original movies so favourably because I was just a kid back then... that as an adult, I view the new trilogy far too critically.
 
Maybe.
 
I remember as a kid, Darth Vader gave me nightmares for years.  He is, without doubt, the coolest, baddest, most awesome villian in movie history.  He's so bad, he needed to be played by two actors.  
 
In The Phantom Menace, he's played by Jake Lloyd.  A six year old.
 
As a kid, I remember being fascinated by Yoda.  Sure, I knew he was actually a puppet, but as far as I was concerned he lived and breathed.  He was mystical and wise and I cried when he died.
 
In Attack of the Clones, Yoda jumps around like a fighting frog.  And everyone in the cinema laughed at him.  Laughed at Yoda, I tell you!
 
Bah!
 
People are welcome to enjoy the new trilogy... but as far as I'm concerned, the new movies aren't "Star Wars".  Not by my definition.

I can´t put my finger on it, but Lucas screwed up in ways I cannot really verbalize.

Take the Mos Eysley Cantina: It was totally a gonzo Mexican-Western Bar brawl scene. Including badassery and cheesy dialogue.

Compare to the Coruscant Diner scene: It was a totally gonzo American Graffitti-Diner investigation scene. Including old boys meeting, a robo-waitress and cheesy dialogue.

But the second scene just sucked so hard I cringe everytime I see it.

Dunno why, something is wrong with the gonzo in the prequels.


Anyone more insightful in that regard?

What I´m trying to say:

In an analytical way, the ingredients are all there, and sometimes there are ultra-sweet moments:

Obi-Wan against Darth Maul!
Obi-Wan against Jango Fett!
The line: "Boba, close the door!"
Sebulba!
Sebulba´s Pod Racer!
The sound of Sebulba´s Pod Racer!
Clone Troopers are all dumbed down Boba Fetts!

But there are so many shitty moments, that don´t work although the ingredients are the same gonzo stuff as is fitting for Space Opera.

The two headed announcer at the Pod Race. WTF?
The bulby eyed attack vehicles. WTF?
Jar-Jar Binks. WTF?
Middle-Ear-Indians. WTF?
Chewbacca´s cameo. WTF?
etc.

I can´t really understand why some stuff works for me, whereas the others are so insulting and stupid.

Quote from: SettembriniDunno why, something is wrong with the gonzo in the prequels.


Anyone more insightful in that regard?

I'll give it a shot.

The original trilogy was a fantastic blend of the ancient and futuristic. Technology seemed to be slightly run down or worn out, the old order that supported the political structure was a fading memory shrouded in myth. There was a sense of historical placement that arose from the juxtaposition of a robed wizard hiring space-faring smugglers in a fantasy tavern. It felt like you were watching something that hinted at immense backstory and epic struggle, played out on the fringes of the wilderness.

Dex's diner had none of that. Everything is bright, shiny and new. Moreover the characters (Jedi included) have adopted a modernist outlook wholesale, right down to the attempted snappy dialogue and facial tics. Mysticism has been reduced to the tropes of a detective story, presented against a backdrop that seems to have sprung to gleaming life only a day earlier. There's no real sense of scale or legacy. The audience feels like they could be watching a scene from any number of films, dressed up with cgi and robots. Most of the the epic, poetic things that were hinted at in earlier instalments are now set in a universe of burger bars, poster boys and "This is why I hate flying."

Modernism. I think that's where GL went critically off track.

Quote from: SettembriniI can´t put my finger on it, but Lucas screwed up in ways I cannot really verbalize.

How about starting with record grossing films, billions of delighted fans world-wide.  Having made a multi-billion dollar empire out of his vision.;)

I mean come on people, you think you know better than George?  Love the movies for what they are, good clean fun...if it's not enough for you, move on to something that does trip your trigger.

Really, all these arguments are old.

Quote from: DrewModernism. I think that's where GL went critically off track.

I'll have to respectfully disagree. The modernism in the prequel trilogy is there for a reason -- to highlight the run down nature of the original movies. The historical influences are very obvious, right down to the art deco style of some of the movie. Before the Empire came, it was the roaring twenties, Weimar republic style. Now, the Empire is twenty years later...

I have to say that the production design of the prequels was very, very good and had a certain Star Wars  je ne sais quoi. You saw that everything was not as utilitarian, while you could recognize the origins of some pieces of technology.

But oh my, plot and dialogue...
I have to say that it got better every movie and Episode III was actually quite enjoyable, sans Anakin of course.
(Hayden Christensen isn't as bad as some make him seem, but IMHO the age bracket just was wrong.)

Quote from: DrewModernism. I think that's where GL went critically off track.

Maybe. But I always felt that there was a level of cyncisim which engulfed the prequels that was compounded by generally bad directing. There was also the fact that Lucas had to compete with the "new kids" and wasn't really up to the challenge. All this could have been avoided if Lucas  handed the project over to the new kids - who frankly seem to understand the themes of the trilogy better than Lucas ever did.

The good thing about the prequels is that it reminded me that there is still stories to tell.

Regards,
David R

QuoteLove the movies for what they are, good clean fun...if it's not enough for you, move on to something that does trip your trigger.

I am argueing exactly that. I loved the Pod Race, I can live with Anakin, and the Gungans. But there are scenes in the prequels, that let the rollercoaster come to a screeching halt, and have stuff like Chechen Mimes doing a Teletubby re-enactment with a Pinata stuck to their navel walk in them.

How come there are such totally bungled scenes built from the mixture of gonzo that was totally awesome in the first movies?
Heck, I even love the two Ewok movies, they don´t have these strange moments of totally random uncoolness.

Loved the first two movies, and really enjoyed parts of the third.  The prequels...nothing sticks with me from them at all.  What happened to the prequels began appearing in RotJ, when Lucas starting aiming more for kids and marketing.

The original movies were more about story enhanced by SFX.  The prequels were all about SFX with an attempt at a story squeezed into the gaps.

What did the OT have that the prequels lacked?


Swagger.

And, of course, a charming, roguish Everyman.

And the weapons/ships were cooler.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!What did the OT have that the prequels lacked?

Snipped pic of Solo...

Swagger.

And, of course, a charming, roguish Everyman.

Yes...and they also had...wait for it....

Han. Shot. First.

Actually, to bring this back to role-playing...I enjoyed the Clone Wars animated mini-series...I could dig a campaign revolving around that...

Quote from: rcsampleHan. Shot. First.

In my house, this is law.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!In my house, this is law.

I wonder if I could get the Village Board to put an amendment into our ordinances, I could just see it now....

Ordinance 3 - Section 23, Sub-Section 144:  Public conversation regarding Star Wars (see Sub-Section 100 re: No public acknowledgement of Star Wars as "A New Hope"), specifically the Mos-Eisley Cantina Scene, more specifically the Han Solo/Greedo conversation scene, is limited to, and not soley to, references to the afformentioned characters and the resolution to their disagreement as "Han Shot First". Any references to the specific instances of shooting in that scene that are not in line with "Han Shot First" are unrecognizable and will be punishable on mentioning by a light-saber to "The Junk". (A foot/boot to "The Junk" is an acceptable substitute.)


Anyway, before the apologists pile on,  I would just like to take this opportunity to thank George Lucas:

Thanks, George, for giving life and coming up(or borrowing them creatively) with the ideas of Darth Vader, The Force, The Cynic, The Farmboy, The Princess, The Death Star and mixing them all up in a great gumbo, that was delicious to my young palate.

Thanks, George, for the Original Trilogy, where you realized your limitations as a script/screenplay writer and let competent people come up with snappy dialog and do some polishing of your ideas.

Thanks, George, for the Original Trilogy, where you were too young and new to be surrounded by "Yes Men", who would tell you that your Prequel doesn't stink and Jar-Jar was a good idea.

Thanks, George, for the Original Trilogy, where the word Original meant Original not "No really, this third version of Star Wars, the one where I change plot points under the guise of "inadequate Special Effects of the time", and then change them back when there is a hue and cry but will probably change them again when I feel a disturbance in my cash flow or ego".


Rich

Quote from: rcsampleHan. Shot. First.

You guys are all being unnecessarily harsh on Lucas.  I just re-watched our DVD copy of the revised "A New Hope" last night, and I'm now convinced that Lucas changed the scene to underscore just how completely bad-ass Han Solo really is.  It apparently didn't show up very well in theaters, but if you pop in the DVD, slow down the frame rate, then zoom in above Han's left shoulder, you'll notice a small fly hovering near his ear.  The fly arcs upward, the blaster bolt appears from Greedo's gun, and -- yes, you guessed it -- the fly is incinerated.  Meanwhile, Han misunderstands the gesture of concern (and/or bravado) and totally greases Greedo where he sits.  He then gets up like nothing happened...all over a fucking fly!

It's totally hardcore, much moreso than the original scene, and Lucas knew this.  That fly had been bugging the shit out of him ever since the original print was screened, and he turned that little mis-chance to his advantage.  Life gave him lemons, and he made lemonade.  And you guys complain about it.  Sheesh.

!i!

Guys,

Part of the point of this thread is gaming.

The original series is vastly more gameable, because it's not all about the jedi wire fu.

Non-jedi characters hold their own, the jedi are one option among many cool options, it's an incredibly gameable universe.

The prequels, not so much, if you're not a jedi you pretty much suck.  The jedi are vastly more powerful, full of wire-fu and mass force punch and power leaps and all, Han Solo would be an irrelevance.

That's the point, the prequels are shite movies but the point in this thread is that they are shite gaming too, while the original series makes for great gaming.

Hmm? Wizards can shoot lightning, Monks can leap tall (medieval) buildings in a single bound, psions can make crystals light up. That doesn't neccesarily outclass the fighter -- although the implementation gets pretty close.

The prequels focussed on Jedis, the only outsiders were Padme (held her own) and Jar Jar (don't get into that), so the comparison is a bit off. The clone troopers were quite impressive at times, even killing quite a few Jedi. Luke certainly out-classed almost everyone on his side in almost every regard in ROTJ, he just didn't have time to be everywhere at once.

No, I wouldn't say that gaming in the Old Republic, Clone Wars or KOTOR eras would make balance impossible. This is more a system issue and the D20 system iterations made nice progress here, as opposed to D6 where, yes, Jedis trumped everyone all the time.

Quote from: SosthenesHmm? Wizards can shoot lightning, Monks can leap tall (medieval) buildings in a single bound, psions can make crystals light up. That doesn't neccesarily outclass the fighter -- although the implementation gets pretty close.

The prequels focussed on Jedis, the only outsiders were Padme (held her own) and Jar Jar (don't get into that), so the comparison is a bit off. The clone troopers were quite impressive at times, even killing quite a few Jedi. Luke certainly out-classed almost everyone on his side in almost every regard in ROTJ, he just didn't have time to be everywhere at once.

No, I wouldn't say that gaming in the Old Republic, Clone Wars or KOTOR eras would make balance impossible. This is more a system issue and the D20 system iterations made nice progress here, as opposed to D6 where, yes, Jedis trumped everyone all the time.

Yanno, I always hear people say that about D6, but I never found it to be true in my experience.  Especialyl if you're starting scratch characters, Jedi tended to suck, because you started with a shitty number of dice in your Force skills despite the high difficulties for most of the powers, and at the expense of dice for everything else.  

Sure there were crazy powers, but because of how few dice you got, most of them'd be bloody worthless.  The games I played where we focused on Jedi, we wound up giving extra dice for Force skills, or starting off with extra CP, just so our Jedi wouldn't be more worthless than Luke was in the original Star Wars.

Quote from: SosthenesHmm? Wizards can shoot lightning, Monks can leap tall (medieval) buildings in a single bound, psions can make crystals light up. That doesn't neccesarily outclass the fighter -- although the implementation gets pretty close.

Not in any games I play they can't.

And frankly, D&D is its own thing, it isn't a licenced property where everything cool gets done by one class.

If people like d20 Star Wars that's cool, I thought it was incredibly unstarwarsy but others have had far better results and good luck to them.  Really though I'm talking setting, not ruleset, I'm not running some d6 uber alles argument here - if I ran the new version I'd just use the original trilogy as canon all the same.

Quote from: BalbinusIf people like d20 Star Wars that's cool, I thought it was incredibly unstarwarsy

You obviously haven't picked up Star Wars Saga Edition yet.

Quote from: Balbinus... if I ran the new version I'd just use the original trilogy as canon all the same.

If I were running a Jedi-centric campaign I would probably go Feng Shui, but d6 is my default system for SW. Speaking about canon, I been toying with the idea of straying from it for my next SW campaign. There's so much raw material to work from in the original trilogy that I think I could successfully pull off an alternate "epic" storyline.

I like the stuff like Luke's training on Dagobah and the mentor/apprentice relationship of the Jedi....both fucked to hell in the prequels - the antiseptic training lounge for younglings in AotC...but the animated Clone War series was damn good and really IMO in keeping with the general tone of the original trilogy.

Sorry this last para has nothing really to do with the discussion at hand...but I really don't like the prequels :(

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RSpeaking about canon, I been toying with the idea of straying from it for my next SW campaign.

Already working on something like this myself now that I got SAGA.  It's going to be about the early establishment of the Jedi & Sith orders and deal with how they both imbalance The Force.  I think it'll be a good backdrop to the back and forth you see in the movies.  I'm going to be discussing some more regarding political intrigue with the group.  I'd like to run it as solo adventures where each character is swaying the direction of the future of the galaxy.

Quote from: BalbinusReally though I'm talking setting, not ruleset, I'm not running some d6 uber alles argument here - if I ran the new version I'd just use the original trilogy as canon all the same.

Sorry to support the diversion from gaming...but the Dark Side(tm) was consuming me with talk of the prequels...

To help keep this on gaming/setting.  

I played, actually ran, West End Star Wars d6.  While I liked it's free-wheeling attitude, loved the art direction (of at least the early books), it's pick-a-template-add-some-dice-and-go, I had some issues with the movement/dodge rules, starfighter combat and the wound levels.  We had fun with it, but it was a little too loose on some of the rules...

Star Wars d20, which I own and read but haven't played, seemed like the pendulum swung a little to far in the rules direction.  Having never played it, I cannot say for sure.

Star War Saga...I have on order (Deep Discount (DVD) has the book $22.00 free shipping...although they aren't getting any in til 6/29), this may be the middle ground between d6 and full-blown d20...it should be interesting...

On to setting.  Every time a new version of a Star Wars RPG comes out or a new movie, I always have the urge to run my secret fantasy Star Wars campaign.  Basically the characters would be the last remnants of the Jedi trying to avoid being hunted down by Vader.  Think  Sergio Leone's Good, the Bad and The Ugly, mixed with some additional western style spaghetti, with Lee Van Cleef as Vader and numerous other bounty killers.  Might be a little dark tho...

So while I didn't really like the prequels, I think there are some areas that are ripe for pillaging.  Such as the Clone Wars (howzabout,  Tom Clancy's: Clone Wars) or the Fall of the Jedi.  Failed Trade Negotiations? Not so much.


Rich

Has anyone read the Star Wars: Legacy comics? Worst. Sith. Lord. Evah, but I think you could set some interesting campaigns in that era. Stormtroopers on both sides, at least three kinds of force users, more gray areas and still lots of Twi'Lek chicks...

Here's a thing which the original Star Wars had which none of the sequels had, not even TESB and ROTJ, and which I do miss:

Grand Moff Tarkin.

Specifically, the dynamic between Tarkin and Darth Vader in the first movie was fantastic. In Vader you have this sinister remnant of the dead religion which Vader himself destroyed, but in Tarkin you have a cold, heartless technocrat. Vader and the Emperor might provide the Empire with its spiritual heart, but it's men like Tarkin who lead the military, run the civil service, and generally keep the structure of the Empire ticking over nicely. The technological power at Tarkin's command may not be a match for the Force in the long run, but it beats the living shit out of everything else and gives the Force a run for its money too.

In many ways, it's a shame that the Emperor just turned out to be an uber-Jedi; in many ways, he should have been the perfect fusion of Vader and Tarkin's qualities, entirely willing to use both the Force and technological and logistical might to get his way.

Also, Peter Cushing is awesome.

Thanks for that, Warthur.  I was just watching Star Wars (fuck this New Hope crap :haw: ) the other day and thought - jesus that guy was cold hearted.

And the thought that - shit! If Tarkin is not the Emperor, how much of a fucking cold hearted bad ass is he?

Also, isn't Tarkin essentially in command of Vader? How interesting is that?

You've hit the nail on the head. To me it's just another example of how there were, perhaps unintentionally, these great little things running around underneath the surface hero/swash-buckling story that seemed to become less and less as the series went on.

Tarkin is the banality of Evil.

In the original conception of SW, I'm sure the Emperor was the same, not even remotely a magical/Force-type figure.

Basically, the Julio-Claudians as seen by Ronald Syme and Tacitus. (And maybe, a bit, by the Jews & Christians.)

The original novel-version of SW had an bit of introductory text that played this up. I can't find it right now, though it's surely on the web somewhere.

Quote from: James J SkachAlso, isn't Tarkin essentially in command of Vader? How interesting is that?

The interpretation that I always took from the film - and poking about on Wikipedia this is apparently the interpretation taken up by the Expanded Universe, which makes it one of the things the EU people actually got right - was that while strictly speaking from a military standpoint Tarkin outranks Vader - which is why Tarkin is giving Vader his orders when they're in public - in practice they are equally influential, which is why Vader and Tarkin talk as equals in that scene where they're alone in the briefing room. Tarkin has a hell of a lot of formal power, whereas Vader is the Emperor's hatchet-man - a sort of "minister without portfolio" with a troubleshooting remit.

This reminds me of another think I liked about the Tarkin/Vader deal: even though they represent entirely different outlooks on life, there's a certain amount of comradeship between them - they actually seem to like each other. Tarkin almost seems sympathetic when he's talking about how Vader's the last of the Jedi, for example, while Vader opens up to Tarkin far more than he does to... pretty much anyone aside from Luke.

Quote from: Elliot WilenTarkin is the banality of Evil.

In the original conception of SW, I'm sure the Emperor was the same, not even remotely a magical/Force-type figure.

Basically, the Julio-Claudians as seen by Ronald Syme and Tacitus. (And maybe, a bit, by the Jews & Christians.)

The original novel-version of SW had an bit of introductory text that played this up. I can't find it right now, though it's surely on the web somewhere.

ISTR that the original novel version actually described the Emperor as being isolated and senile, sidelined by Vader and Tarkin.

Quote from: grubmanYou obviously haven't picked up Star Wars Saga Edition yet.

Very true, it sounds much better I admit.

Quote from: Warthurisolated and senile

The emperor was supposed to be Yoda?

Quote from: beejazzThe emperor was supposed to be Yoda?

You have to admit, it would have been more interesting than what they decided to run with.

!i!

Quote from: WarthurISTR that the original novel version actually described the Emperor as being isolated and senile, sidelined by Vader and Tarkin.

I remember the word "isolated", but not senile. Ah, I found the passage in a couple places.

QuoteAnother galaxy, another time.
The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time.  No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that ... it was the Republic.

Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew.  But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match.

So it was with the Republic at its height.  Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside.

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic.  He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.

Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace.  Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.

Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy.  Many used the Imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.

But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages.  Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic.

From the beginning they were vastly outnumbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor.  In those first dark days it seemed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples...

Sources:
Whills.nu (http://www.whills.nu/4/) (Check out the early treatments and drafts. "The Bogan is strong with you." Hee!)
Usenet (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.starwars/msg/76e06520cf951059?hl=en&)

The various treatments are interesting here because they show the evolution of Vader's role. At least at one point, he's described as the "right hand man" of an even greater Sith, but later he becomes the right hand man of the Emperor. So, maybe Lucas was thinking along those lines all the time, but most likely he was just cutting and merging characters in the normal process of tightening up a story.

The passage above does make the Emperor seem less active and in control than I'd remembered ("controlled by boot-lickers"). In any case, much different from the way he's shown in all the other movies.

You know how Han Solo suddenly shows up and covers Luke's back at he trench run?

That's Star Wars to me.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!You know how Han Solo suddenly shows up and covers Luke's back at he trench run?

That's Star Wars to me.

Yeah, but ... it's not entirely "sudden."  That's part of what I love about it, too.

When my son (then five years old) was watching it for the first time, he was clinging to me (hard!  ouch!) as Darth Vader closed in for the kill, and he said "Daddy ... his friend just has to come save him ... daddy, he just HAS TO."

Between the two of us (both making noise, but for different reasons) I am pretty sure I have never heard a happier scream when Han did that very thing.

So when I say "A five year old can see that plot twist coming," I am both entirely literal and entirely complimentary.

Awesome story, Tony. I'm gonna refrain (with effort) from waxing erudite about Tolkien's concept of "Eucatastrophe." :)

I, like a bunch o' others, really dig on the Tarkin and Vader stuff as i'm growing older and rewatching. As a kid, a lot of that stuff whizzed right by; I probably just assumed Vader was the leader of everything cause, well, LOOK at him, and only when the Emperor makes an appearance did that model get discarded. And I actually saw Empire first, in theater at age 7, after my dad summarized SW for me, so Vader as Emperor-sidekick actually preceeded Vader as Tarkin-sidekick.

Now, though, I love all the nuance in the first movie with Vader ordered about by Tarkin, basically being kind of an outsider presence, with his fringy religion and funky suit, but with terror-inducing powers and a fearsome presence. He's a zealous General pursuing his personal agenda, which is NOT the Death Star or the whole "fear and terror" political campaign. He's a little (but deadly!) fish who consistently gains power throughout the trilogy. Maybe he's even sincere to Luke about "ending this destructive conflict" and "ruling the galaxy" together, I.E. in place of the Emperor? Eh?

And on a lighter note. . .anyone seen this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=rfP90uJ12eQ)?

Peace,
-Joel

What about Liet?

Quote from: MelinglorAnd on a lighter note. . .anyone seen this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=rfP90uJ12eQ)?

That will never, ever, stop being funny no matter how many times I see it. Never.

"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?" :killingme:

"Have you got an ATM on that Torso, Lite Brite?!?!"

Mel, thanks.  I have never seen that and it put me, literally, in tears.

Awesome. I've been sharing the love with as many folks as possible.

"Look, I didn't mean to snap, it's just, I'm under a lot of pressure, Death Star blown up by a bunch of fucking teenagers, you know."

Peace,
-Joel

I watched it again today (it was on one of the HBO channels and my son loves it and it's raining)...

I have to thank Warthur for pointing out the Tarkin thing. Man did Cushing make that roll.  It's a shame he had to die.

The script also brings up so many questions that could have been answered in so many ways that it's almost a shame that TESB, even though it's a great movie (perhaps the best of them, IMHO), was ever made.  The open nature of things would have been - spectacular.

Quote from: James J SkachThe script also brings up so many questions that could have been answered in so many ways that it's almost a shame that TESB, even though it's a great movie (perhaps the best of them, IMHO), was ever made.  The open nature of things would have been - spectacular.

This is a beautiful thought James :D

Regards,
David R

"Oh, oh, oh, I'm sorry.  I thought my 'Dark Lord of the Sith' could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2 meters wide. That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet!"


It's just too fucking funny....

"Get your seven-foot-two-asmatic ass back here or I'm going to tell everyone what a whiny bitch you were about padamomey or panda bear or whatever the hell her name is."

It's fucking priceless....

That whole damn thing is so quoteable, huh?

"Oh, I'm sorry, I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect an exhaust port that's freakin' two meters WIDE! That thing wasn't even paid off yet!"

:killingme:

Peace,
-Joel