In the ongoing spree of #DnD SJWs turning on each other, a new Queer-themed SJW #dnd5e book has been attacked, not by evil right-wingers but by other SJWs for being the "wrong kind" of queer.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 19, 2021, 01:07:31 PM
In the ongoing spree of #DnD SJWs turning on each other, a new Queer-themed SJW #dnd5e book has been attacked, not by evil right-wingers but by other SJWs for being the "wrong kind" of queer.
Yeah, no shit it is the wrong type of Queer.
Because having a queer vampire is the type of representation you want to see?
I always think of the Kids in the Hall sketch "Hockey Game Pick-up" whenever gay Strahd is mentioned.
I will re-iterate my request for written transcripts to videos, as even at 1.5 speed I STILL could read your entire point in much less than half the time I takes to watch videos.
Also, I note you struggle a little to explain the Virtue Death Spiral, I'll remind you that de Toqueville, in his masterpiece on the Ancien Regiem actually quite elequently lays out exactly how Virtue differs from Sin, and why it creates such death spirals. Better, he does it in the first or second chapter, absolving the lazy (like Me!) from having to read the whole damn (thin) book to get it.
Quote from: Spike on March 19, 2021, 11:08:21 PM
I will re-iterate my request for written transcripts to videos, as even at 1.5 speed I STILL could read your entire point in much less than half the time I takes to watch videos.
There's no money in that.
Quote from: Spike on March 19, 2021, 11:08:21 PM
Also, I note you struggle a little to explain the Virtue Death Spiral.
What's to explain?
It should more properly be called the Self-Righteousness Death Spiral, but Virtue is easier to say so its clear why the misapropism stuck.
Here's a short version for future use. The Prideful believe themselves to be the the most righteous being possible and so, to prove this, create categories to distinguish themselves from the less righteous. Whenever a category of the less righteous compared to them is peeled away they pick a new category from among those who still qualify as righteous to further distinguish themselves as more righteous.
On and on this goes until finally the numbers of the "unrighteous" realize they vastly outnumber the self-proclaimed righteous and that group declares the now minority self-righteous to be villains who must be removed from greater society for it own good.
And thus the cycle begins again.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 20, 2021, 09:30:12 AM
Quote from: Spike on March 19, 2021, 11:08:21 PM
Also, I note you struggle a little to explain the Virtue Death Spiral.
What's to explain?
It should more properly be called the Self-Righteousness Death Spiral, but Virtue is easier to say so its clear why the misapropism stuck.
Here's a short version for future use. The Prideful believe themselves to be the the most righteous being possible and so, to prove this, create categories to distinguish themselves from the less righteous. Whenever a category of the less righteous compared to them is peeled away they pick a new category from among those who still qualify as righteous to further distinguish themselves as more righteous.
On and on this goes until finally the numbers of the "unrighteous" realize they vastly outnumber the self-proclaimed righteous and that group declares the now minority self-righteous to be villains who must be removed from greater society for it own good.
And thus the cycle begins again.
Succinct.
Mind if I borrow this?
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2021, 08:38:37 AM
There's no money in that.
By that logic I shouldn't be spending time reading or posting on this forum, either. No money in it.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 19, 2021, 04:26:01 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 19, 2021, 01:07:31 PM
In the ongoing spree of #DnD SJWs turning on each other, a new Queer-themed SJW #dnd5e book has been attacked, not by evil right-wingers but by other SJWs for being the "wrong kind" of queer.
Yeah, no shit it is the wrong type of Queer.
Because having a queer vampire is the type of representation you want to see?
So only marysues and gary stues are allowed as "representation" of the "marginalized"?
That's making them not human, because humans fall in every single spot of the spectrum between perfectly good and perfectly evil.
By this logic whenever I play a woman PC it should have 18 in every stat, +2 in every skill check, be immune to mind control, sleep, and every magic that might make her less powerful or less than perfect.
Quote from: jeff37923 on March 20, 2021, 12:36:09 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 20, 2021, 09:30:12 AM
Quote from: Spike on March 19, 2021, 11:08:21 PM
Also, I note you struggle a little to explain the Virtue Death Spiral.
What's to explain?
It should more properly be called the Self-Righteousness Death Spiral, but Virtue is easier to say so its clear why the misapropism stuck.
Here's a short version for future use. The Prideful believe themselves to be the the most righteous being possible and so, to prove this, create categories to distinguish themselves from the less righteous. Whenever a category of the less righteous compared to them is peeled away they pick a new category from among those who still qualify as righteous to further distinguish themselves as more righteous.
On and on this goes until finally the numbers of the "unrighteous" realize they vastly outnumber the self-proclaimed righteous and that group declares the now minority self-righteous to be villains who must be removed from greater society for it own good.
And thus the cycle begins again.
Succinct.
Mind if I borrow this?
Go right ahead. I don't see much point in sharing a thought if others can't use it.
Quote from: Spike on March 20, 2021, 12:54:59 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2021, 08:38:37 AM
There's no money in that.
By that logic I shouldn't be spending time reading or posting on this forum, either. No money in it.
OK, then there's NO INFLUENCE in that. I get ten times more people watching my video than reading my blog. Why would I put my energy into writing an article that takes ME much longer to do, so that it can reach LESS people?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 20, 2021, 02:57:45 PM
By this logic whenever I play a woman PC it should have 18 in every stat, +2 in every skill check, be immune to mind control, sleep, and every magic that might make her less powerful or less than perfect.
Are you saying there is something wrong with having an 18 in every stat? o_O
Quote from: Spike on March 20, 2021, 12:54:59 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2021, 08:38:37 AM
There's no money in that.
By that logic I shouldn't be spending time reading or posting on this forum, either. No money in it.
You just wasted one minute of my life arguing that Pundit should make your life easier than making money. You owe me a dollar.
As usual, SJWs indulge if their favorite targets for witchburning.
Each other.
Grab some popcorn.
Quote from: Spike on March 19, 2021, 11:08:21 PM
I will re-iterate my request for written transcripts to videos, as even at 1.5 speed I STILL could read your entire point in much less than half the time I takes to watch videos.
OTTER.AI is a machine listening program that will create a transcript of a YouTube video
The free tier is 600 minutes per month.
https://otter.ai/pricing (https://otter.ai/pricing)
Quote from: Shasarak on March 19, 2021, 04:26:01 PM
Because having a queer vampire is the type of representation you want to see?
Nothing wrong with identifying with monsters...
...as long as you realize they're monsters.
Quote from: Spike on March 19, 2021, 11:08:21 PM
I will re-iterate my request for written transcripts to videos, as even at 1.5 speed I STILL could read your entire point in much less than half the time I takes to watch videos.
- Go to video
- Click the ••• menu below the video player
- Select 'Open Transcript'
- Read Transcript
This happened in the knitting and YA fiction communities a few years back:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000d70h
I guess if you want to know what happens next, look there.
I am gleefully happy that the shameless pandering to a tiny minority of people who actually most of the time dislike D&D, its history and legacy, and who also do not play it the most of the time turns to be a fruitless exercise in stupidity !!!
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 20, 2021, 03:29:52 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on March 20, 2021, 12:36:09 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 20, 2021, 09:30:12 AM
Quote from: Spike on March 19, 2021, 11:08:21 PM
Also, I note you struggle a little to explain the Virtue Death Spiral.
What's to explain?
It should more properly be called the Self-Righteousness Death Spiral, but Virtue is easier to say so its clear why the misapropism stuck.
Here's a short version for future use. The Prideful believe themselves to be the the most righteous being possible and so, to prove this, create categories to distinguish themselves from the less righteous. Whenever a category of the less righteous compared to them is peeled away they pick a new category from among those who still qualify as righteous to further distinguish themselves as more righteous.
On and on this goes until finally the numbers of the "unrighteous" realize they vastly outnumber the self-proclaimed righteous and that group declares the now minority self-righteous to be villains who must be removed from greater society for it own good.
And thus the cycle begins again.
Succinct.
Mind if I borrow this?
Go right ahead. I don't see much point in sharing a thought if others can't use it.
Also note there tends to be a pattern of targets these cultists use.
protect the children!
protect the women! While proclaiming them Strong!
Protect the gays!
Protect the minorities!
Protect the blacks (and sometimes the natives!)
Protect the cripples! While proclaiming them Strong!
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 19, 2021, 01:07:31 PM
In the ongoing spree of #DnD SJWs turning on each other, a new Queer-themed SJW #dnd5e book has been attacked, not by evil right-wingers but by other SJWs for being the "wrong kind" of queer.
Wait, who hasn't heard of Elminster, the Sage of Shadowdale, Doombringer of Mystra, Confirmed Bachelor of Cormyr?
TBH, I don't really keep tabs on the politics of gaming. While most games are clearly heteronormative, I've never played one that is explicitly discriminatory against the LGBTQIA+ community, and I have gamed with gamers who were a part of this community. If people wanted to run with a LGBTQIA+ character, my GMs have been totally cool with it. In fact, my last shadowrun character was a non-binary asexual decker. It wasn't a big thing and we had fun with the game.
I also didn't read (or even hear of until now) this sourcebook, but it sounds pretty terrible the way you describe it. I could see the community finding flamboyant characterizations to be offensive. Don't get me wrong. I love Scott Thompson and the Buddy Cole sketches, but this was at a time when the movement probably needed that level of visibility to get off the ground. Nowadays, that style might come off as anachronistic now that we (generally should) realize that the members of the community individually are otherwise just like the rest of us boring straight gendered people. Gay men can like sports and hate show tunes. Lesbian women don't all have to wear a lot of flannel and drive Suburus, etc.
As for SJWs turning on SJWs, this doesn't surprise me, though I would offer an alternative perspective to the purity critical mass thing. The progressive side tends to favor the rights and liberties and the value of everyone as an individual. However, this post-modernist foundation is the very thing that works against it. At first, everyone in the movement is all happy with each other because the now have a name and a voice, but because the underlying message is that every individual matters, people are going to have different ideas of what that voice should be saying. This person's "kind of queer" is not that person's "kind of queer", and this other person doesn't even like the term "queer". Unifying for the right to be completely different is about as easy as fucking your way back to your virginity.
This is why the conservatives have been as successful as they have been. They have the right mix of propaganda and autocratic sway to (somewhat forcibly) keep everyone on the same page. Look at the 2020 US election. There were more than three dozen democrats out of the gate. All the democrats wanted a democrat, but they wanted "their" democrat. Meanwhile, the Republicans immediately got on board with Donald "Dumpster Fire" Trump. And, he might have actually won if it wasn't for the blatant racism and total mismanagement of COVID (I don't believe his general insanity and incompetence was much of a problem, as far as politicians go). They may be driving us towards a fascist, oppressive dystopia, but they're doing it more efficiently than the progressives are driving us towards utopia (not that anyone will agree on what this utopia should be).
I wonder how much the SJW movement actually affects, or even represents, actual gamers in actual play. I've had friends who were "the wrong kind of gay" and so they didn't fit in with the SJW circles but were totally loved and accepted by the group. Meanwhile, other friends were the "right kinda of gay" for the SJW movement but didn't get involved because they were also loved and accepted by actual gamers and thought the SJWs were a bunch of blowhards.
But, like I said, I don't keep up with the politics of gaming. I just hang out with my friends (regardless of orientation) and have fun. So, odds are I have no idea what I'm talking about. :)
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 21, 2021, 06:00:55 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 19, 2021, 04:26:01 PM
Because having a queer vampire is the type of representation you want to see?
Nothing wrong with identifying with monsters...
...as long as you realize they're monsters.
I think the equation of monsters with queers is disturbing, actually. Homophobic, even.
Vampires are basically a mix of cannibalism, demonic possession, and STDs. Equating that with being queer doesn't reflect well on queerness or the people making the comparison. Especially the bit about vampires being able to infect others and turn them into more vampires, which is not how being queer works (despite what some anti-queer groups may claim).
Equating vampirism with drug addiction? That doesn't reflect poorly on drug addiction (not anymore than usual) because drug addiction is already accepted to be a bad thing. It even provides a better metaphor because anyone can fall into drug addiction, just like how anyone can contract vampirism.
Vampires can be queer, sure, but their vampirism and queerness should not be causally linked.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 22, 2021, 12:36:00 PM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 21, 2021, 06:00:55 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 19, 2021, 04:26:01 PM
Because having a queer vampire is the type of representation you want to see?
Nothing wrong with identifying with monsters...
...as long as you realize they're monsters.
I think the equation of monsters with queers is disturbing, actually. Homophobic, even.
Vampires are basically a mix of cannibalism, demonic possession, and STDs. Equating that with being queer doesn't reflect well on queerness or the people making the comparison. Especially the bit about vampires being able to infect others and turn them into more vampires, which is not how being queer works (despite what some anti-queer groups may claim).
Equating vampirism with drug addiction? That doesn't reflect poorly on drug addiction (not anymore than usual) because drug addiction is already accepted to be a bad thing. It even provides a better metaphor because anyone can fall into drug addiction, just like how anyone can contract vampirism.
Vampires can be queer, sure, but their vampirism and queerness should not be causally linked.
We haven't even gotten into the various flavors of vampire, either, as the myth varies wildly from culture to culture. But maybe they're worried about 'cultural appropriation'.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 22, 2021, 12:36:00 PM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 21, 2021, 06:00:55 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 19, 2021, 04:26:01 PM
Because having a queer vampire is the type of representation you want to see?
Nothing wrong with identifying with monsters...
...as long as you realize they're monsters.
I think the equation of monsters with queers is disturbing, actually. Homophobic, even.
Vampires are basically a mix of cannibalism, demonic possession, and STDs. Equating that with being queer doesn't reflect well on queerness or the people making the comparison. Especially the bit about vampires being able to infect others and turn them into more vampires, which is not how being queer works (despite what some anti-queer groups may claim).
Equating vampirism with drug addiction? That doesn't reflect poorly on drug addiction (not anymore than usual) because drug addiction is already accepted to be a bad thing. It even provides a better metaphor because anyone can fall into drug addiction, just like how anyone can contract vampirism.
Vampires can be queer, sure, but their vampirism and queerness should not be causally linked.
I'm not sure who made that comparison?
Can the alphabet soup be drug addicts? Are some of them drug addicts?
People are people, you can find good and bad people everywhere you look, by that same logic the alpahbet soup people CAN be monsters, or rather monsters can belong in the alphabet soup.
You might have missed this but THEY were shipping IT and the Babadoock and celebrating them as LGBTQERTY allies.
Play as you wish, write what you wish, nobody is above criticism and no, playing a gay vampire doesn't make you an Istophobe.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 21, 2021, 06:00:55 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 19, 2021, 04:26:01 PM
Because having a queer vampire is the type of representation you want to see?
Nothing wrong with identifying with monsters...
...as long as you realize they're monsters.
Quote from: Spike on March 19, 2021, 11:08:21 PM
I will re-iterate my request for written transcripts to videos, as even at 1.5 speed I STILL could read your entire point in much less than half the time I takes to watch videos.
- Go to video
- Click the ••• menu below the video player
- Select 'Open Transcript'
- Read Transcript
Thanks, that was helpful. Never knew it was there. Unfortunately it only has a few words on the screen at a time so I still can't absorb the message at a reasonable speed.
I would also prefer a written form, even if it was just the transcript exported to something easier to read. Edit: Nevermind on that last. I just tried copy & paste then removing the line breaks and it was still difficult to read. I guess you would need ot do an actual article.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 22, 2021, 01:08:52 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 22, 2021, 12:36:00 PM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 21, 2021, 06:00:55 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 19, 2021, 04:26:01 PM
Because having a queer vampire is the type of representation you want to see?
Nothing wrong with identifying with monsters...
...as long as you realize they're monsters.
I think the equation of monsters with queers is disturbing, actually. Homophobic, even.
Vampires are basically a mix of cannibalism, demonic possession, and STDs. Equating that with being queer doesn't reflect well on queerness or the people making the comparison. Especially the bit about vampires being able to infect others and turn them into more vampires, which is not how being queer works (despite what some anti-queer groups may claim).
Equating vampirism with drug addiction? That doesn't reflect poorly on drug addiction (not anymore than usual) because drug addiction is already accepted to be a bad thing. It even provides a better metaphor because anyone can fall into drug addiction, just like how anyone can contract vampirism.
Vampires can be queer, sure, but their vampirism and queerness should not be causally linked.
We haven't even gotten into the various flavors of vampire, either, as the myth varies wildly from culture to culture. But maybe they're worried about 'cultural appropriation'.
Speaking of which, what some folklorists label "vampire" is pretty fuzzy. It crosses over a lot with the general "ogre" archetype. I have consulted several books on the subject and the entries are dizzyingly diverse. Succubi, huli jing, asanbosam, soucouyant, jubokko, nekomata, adze, upyr, vrykolakas, varcolac, krasue, aswang, yara-ma-yha-who, jiangshi, lamia, ghouls, and more. These include living vampires, reanimated corpses, hungry ghosts, demons, vampire vegetables and trees, vampire cats and foxes, etc. Some drink blood, eat flesh, steal breath, or use magic ritual to harm at a distance. Some shed their skin, or lower bodies, and fly about as balls of fire or winged entrails. The only thing they share in common is predating on humans.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 22, 2021, 01:38:43 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 22, 2021, 12:36:00 PM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 21, 2021, 06:00:55 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 19, 2021, 04:26:01 PM
Because having a queer vampire is the type of representation you want to see?
Nothing wrong with identifying with monsters...
...as long as you realize they're monsters.
I think the equation of monsters with queers is disturbing, actually. Homophobic, even.
Vampires are basically a mix of cannibalism, demonic possession, and STDs. Equating that with being queer doesn't reflect well on queerness or the people making the comparison. Especially the bit about vampires being able to infect others and turn them into more vampires, which is not how being queer works (despite what some anti-queer groups may claim).
Equating vampirism with drug addiction? That doesn't reflect poorly on drug addiction (not anymore than usual) because drug addiction is already accepted to be a bad thing. It even provides a better metaphor because anyone can fall into drug addiction, just like how anyone can contract vampirism.
Vampires can be queer, sure, but their vampirism and queerness should not be causally linked.
I'm not sure who made that comparison?
"Vampires = queers" is a pretty common analysis in media studies. https://glreview.org/article/vampires-are-us/
I find it rather homophobic myself.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 22, 2021, 12:36:00 PM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 21, 2021, 06:00:55 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 19, 2021, 04:26:01 PM
Because having a queer vampire is the type of representation you want to see?
Nothing wrong with identifying with monsters...
...as long as you realize they're monsters.
I think the equation of monsters with queers is disturbing, actually. Homophobic, even.
You would think, and yet those are the comparisons they chose for themselves. And to be fair lots of us admire and emulate magnificent bastards, like Dr Frank N Furter, House MD, Rick Sanchez, The Joker, Rorschach, Bettlejuice, etc. It only becomes an issue when people treat their negative traits as virtuous.
The problem I see is people identifying with monsters because of the alienation, but then adopting
all the negative traits which justify that alienation in the process.
Quote from: Spike on March 20, 2021, 12:54:59 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 20, 2021, 08:38:37 AM
There's no money in that.
By that logic I shouldn't be spending time reading or posting on this forum, either. No money in it.
Pundit for the most part also follows your logic. The forum is a distribution channel, and our comments section, while also being a place to have conversations with each other not relating to his videos.
But if someone comes to the RPGsite forums looking to find what pundit thinks about a subject, there's little here that isn't first posted elsewhere
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 22, 2021, 05:48:51 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 22, 2021, 01:08:52 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 22, 2021, 12:36:00 PM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 21, 2021, 06:00:55 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 19, 2021, 04:26:01 PM
Because having a queer vampire is the type of representation you want to see?
Nothing wrong with identifying with monsters...
...as long as you realize they're monsters.
I think the equation of monsters with queers is disturbing, actually. Homophobic, even.
Vampires are basically a mix of cannibalism, demonic possession, and STDs. Equating that with being queer doesn't reflect well on queerness or the people making the comparison. Especially the bit about vampires being able to infect others and turn them into more vampires, which is not how being queer works (despite what some anti-queer groups may claim).
Equating vampirism with drug addiction? That doesn't reflect poorly on drug addiction (not anymore than usual) because drug addiction is already accepted to be a bad thing. It even provides a better metaphor because anyone can fall into drug addiction, just like how anyone can contract vampirism.
Vampires can be queer, sure, but their vampirism and queerness should not be causally linked.
We haven't even gotten into the various flavors of vampire, either, as the myth varies wildly from culture to culture. But maybe they're worried about 'cultural appropriation'.
Speaking of which, what some folklorists label "vampire" is pretty fuzzy. It crosses over a lot with the general "ogre" archetype. I have consulted several books on the subject and the entries are dizzyingly diverse. Succubi, huli jing, asanbosam, soucouyant, jubokko, nekomata, adze, upyr, vrykolakas, varcolac, krasue, aswang, yara-ma-yha-who, jiangshi, lamia, ghouls, and more. These include living vampires, reanimated corpses, hungry ghosts, demons, vampire vegetables and trees, vampire cats and foxes, etc. Some drink blood, eat flesh, steal breath, or use magic ritual to harm at a distance. Some shed their skin, or lower bodies, and fly about as balls of fire or winged entrails. The only thing they share in common is predating on humans.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 22, 2021, 01:38:43 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 22, 2021, 12:36:00 PM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 21, 2021, 06:00:55 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 19, 2021, 04:26:01 PM
Because having a queer vampire is the type of representation you want to see?
Nothing wrong with identifying with monsters...
...as long as you realize they're monsters.
I think the equation of monsters with queers is disturbing, actually. Homophobic, even.
Vampires are basically a mix of cannibalism, demonic possession, and STDs. Equating that with being queer doesn't reflect well on queerness or the people making the comparison. Especially the bit about vampires being able to infect others and turn them into more vampires, which is not how being queer works (despite what some anti-queer groups may claim).
Equating vampirism with drug addiction? That doesn't reflect poorly on drug addiction (not anymore than usual) because drug addiction is already accepted to be a bad thing. It even provides a better metaphor because anyone can fall into drug addiction, just like how anyone can contract vampirism.
Vampires can be queer, sure, but their vampirism and queerness should not be causally linked.
I'm not sure who made that comparison?
"Vampires = queers" is a pretty common analysis in media studies. https://glreview.org/article/vampires-are-us/
I find it rather homophobic myself.
I find it perplexing you choose to skip this:
"You might have missed this but THEY were shipping IT and the Babadoock and celebrating them as LGBTQERTY allies."
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 22, 2021, 05:58:10 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 22, 2021, 12:36:00 PM
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 21, 2021, 06:00:55 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on March 19, 2021, 04:26:01 PM
Because having a queer vampire is the type of representation you want to see?
Nothing wrong with identifying with monsters...
...as long as you realize they're monsters.
I think the equation of monsters with queers is disturbing, actually. Homophobic, even.
You would think, and yet those are the comparisons they chose for themselves. And to be fair lots of us admire and emulate magnificent bastards, like Dr Frank N Furter, House MD, Rick Sanchez, The Joker, Rorschach, Bettlejuice, etc. It only becomes an issue when people treat their negative traits as virtuous.
The problem I see is people identifying with monsters because of the alienation, but then adopting all the negative traits which justify that alienation in the process.
I am weirdly reminded of how the identitarians glommed onto Pennywise (from Stephen King's IT) only to recoil in horror when they realized Pennywise had noshed on a rather innocent-souled gay man (I can recall the passage quite clearly in the book; the victim was described as having child-like tendencies which was probably what drew Pennywise).
Has interjecting "queerness" into anything made it better? Anything at all?
Vampires are inhuman monsters. They're about as queer as orcs are black.
Which is to say they are only these things in the addled mind of a leftist.
Quote from: horsesoldier on March 23, 2021, 12:18:34 PM
Has interjecting "queerness" into anything made it better? Anything at all?
Vampires are inhuman monsters. They're about as queer as orcs are black.
Which is to say they are only these things in the addled mind of a leftist.
Well said.
It's very strange watching these lunatics shoehorn their identity politics into the depictions of what are usually villains. You'd think they'd go after the heroes instead.
Quote from: horsesoldier on March 23, 2021, 12:18:34 PM
Has interjecting "queerness" into anything made it better? Anything at all?
Vampires are inhuman monsters. They're about as queer as orcs are black.
Which is to say they are only these things in the addled mind of a leftist.
Both have had increasingly human qualities projected on to them. For better or worse. With varying degrees of success.
IMO, even the most heroic vampire needs to have a darker nature to reject or struggle against. Otherwise there is no point to making them a literal blood-sucking monster as opposed to a straight up superhero.
With orcs, you don't have that same baggage. They're figures of comedy in Disney's
Sleeping Beauty, runaway bioweapons in
Warhammer 40,000, unfortunately overlooked tragic figures in Tolkien's
The Lord of the Rings, the reformed conquistadors of
WarCraft, the brooding big-dicked (anti)heroes of Amazon-published romance novels, etc.
IMO, orcs don't have a single point of reference the way that vampires have their hunger. They're vastly more flexible, but at the same time have less identity. Or maybe I'm wrong. (At least post-Tolkien, since they weren't an established trope prior like fairy tale dwarves and elves were. I'd love to see any counter examples, because I've been searching without success. And no, the Greco-Roman chthonic deity of oaths doesn't count.) I'm sure you could well argue that the shared point of reference for all orcs is war, violence, masculinity, and how we handle and view it. Or basically the fantasy genre's Klingons and storm troopers.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2021, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: horsesoldier on March 23, 2021, 12:18:34 PM
Has interjecting "queerness" into anything made it better? Anything at all?
Vampires are inhuman monsters. They're about as queer as orcs are black.
Which is to say they are only these things in the addled mind of a leftist.
Well said.
It's very strange watching these lunatics shoehorn their identity politics into the depictions of what are usually villains. You'd think they'd go after the heroes instead.
Well, postmodernist deconstructionism encourages adherents to reverse interpretations of traditional media: depict the heroes as villains and the villains as heroes. These sorts of people nurse persecution complexes that encourage them to identify with villains (because villains are persecuted for their villainy, rightly so) while downplaying, ignoring, or reversing the villainy. That's why we have movies like
Maleficent and
Cruella. That attitude feeds into the toxic aspects of the "representation matters" movement.
Of course, most of these people are obviously ignorant millennials and zoomers who somehow missed out on all the representation we did get since the 80s. Geordi LaForge, Static Shock, Ellen Ripley, John Stewart, She-Ra, etc.
But I digress.
The common mythology of orcs is that for Tolkien it's just another name for a goblin in the same way you could call a cat either a kitty or a feline. There's some alternate meaning in terms of seriousness; one wouldn't expect "kitty" to be used in a science journal; but the terms are all broadly synonymous.
So, basically orc = goblin, ogre, kobold, puck, boggart, etc.; a mischievous to malevolent spirit or fairy.
For a time in my setting goblins, orcs and ogres were all the same species on a continuum of size/ferocity with "orc" as the generally man-sized ones, goblins being notably smaller and ogres notably bigger... in a group they'd generally be referred to by the average... i.e. a group of mostly man-sized would be called orcs (even if the biggest orc in the bunch would be called a small ogre if encountered with other large ones).
Ultimately I peeled goblins off because I had a better story element for them... but I kept the notion that some orcs; now a variety of mutant; just kept growing and became ogres.
For a more general Earth mythology setting, I'd class almost all of the above as a variety of evil spirit... in Christianity all of the above plus the sort of ghosts who'd turn up for seances or necromancy would be demons using various guises to attempt to bedevil and mislead mortals.
Quote from: horsesoldier on March 23, 2021, 12:18:34 PM
Vampires are inhuman monsters. They're about as queer as orcs are black.
Certainly in D&D and in most of our legends they are inhuman monsters.
Although in the revised versions of Anne Rice, Stephanie Meyer, Jim Butcher and others they are not necessarily so.
Are those really vampires (or do they just share the name) if they no longer represent mythical archetypes?
However I don't see porting this into official D&D which already has a "vampire monster".
QuoteThe common mythology of orcs is that for Tolkien it's just another name for a goblin in the same way you could call a cat either a kitty or a feline.
I have weird feeling it's not exactly true - like orcs existed in Legendarium under their own name, before Tolkien decided to use term from English folklor - goblin in "Hobbit" (maybe even not linking it clearly with his Legendarium at first, IIRC, when he started to write Hobbit, he did not plan it to be part of Arda, that appeared later.
Here's discussion of etymology from wikipedia:
"The Latin word Orcus is glossed as "Orc, þyrs, oððe hel-deofol"[a] ("Goblin, spectre, or hell-devil") in the 10th century Old English Cleopatra Glossaries, about which Thomas Wright wrote, "Orcus was the name for Pluto, the god of the infernal regions, hence we can easily understand the explanation of hel-deofol. Orc, in Anglo-Saxon, like thyrs, means a spectre, or goblin."[3][4]
The Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal defines ork in the closely related Old Dutch language as a verslindend monster ("devouring monster"),[5] and points at a possible origin in the Old Dutch nork "petulant, crabbed, evil person".[6]
The term is used just once in Beowulf as the plural compound orcneas, one of the tribes alongside the elves and ettins (giants) condemned by God:
þanon untydras ealle onwocon
eotenas ond ylfe ond orcneas
swylce gigantas þa wið gode wunnon
lange þrage he him ðæs lean forgeald
—Beowulf, Fitt I, vv. 111–14[7]
Thence all evil broods were born,
ogres and elves and evil spirits
—the giants also, who long time fought with God,
for which he gave them their reward
—John R. Clark Hall, tr. (1901)[8]
Beowulf's eotenas ond ylfe ond orcneas, "ogres and elves and devil-corpses", inspiring Tolkien to create orcs and other races
Orcneas is translated "evil spirits" above, but its meaning is uncertain. Klaeber suggested it consisted of orc < L. orcus "the underworld" + neas "corpses", which the translation "evil spirits" failed to do justice.[9][c] It is generally supposed to contain an element -né, cognate to Gothic naus and Old Norse nár, both meaning 'corpse'.[10] The usual Old English word for corpse is líc, but -né appears in nebbed 'corpse bed',[11] and in dryhtné 'dead body of a warrior', where dryht is a military unit. If *orcné is to be glossed as orcus 'corpse', the meaning may be "corpse from Orcus (i.e. the underworld)", or "devil-corpse", understood as some sort of walking dead monster.[9]
Early Modern
A monster called Orcus is mentioned in Edmund Spenser's 1590 Faerie Queene.[12] The Oxford English Dictionary records an Early Modern period orke, meaning "ogre", in Samuel Holland's 1656 fairy tale Don Zara, a pastiche of Spanish romances such as Don Quixote.[d][13] It is presumed that 'orke'/'ogre' came into English via continental fairy-tales, especially from the 17th-century French writer Charles Perrault, who borrowed most of his stories and developed his "ogre" from the 16th-century Italian writers Giovanni Francesco Straparola (credited with introducing the literary form of the fairy tale) and Giambattista Basile, who wrote in the Naples dialect, stating that he was passing on oral folktales from his region. In the tales, Basile used huorco, huerco or uerco, the Neapolitan form of Italian orco, lit. "Ogre", to describe a large, hairy, tusked, mannish beast who could speak, lived in a dark forest or garden and might capture and eat humans.[e]"
I am oddly reminded of the description, in Valheim, for where greydwarfs come from. They're not dwarves, for one thing.
QuoteLet all who read me beware of the Greydwarfs, the skulkers in darkness, the soulless ones.They are born from rot and rainfall, they spring like mushrooms from the smoking soil. There is nothing on their tongues or behind their eyes, those who fear nothing should still fear them. When the soul of a murderer or a great sinner rots under the ground, it makes a hollow cyst which draws rock and wood and moss to it. It gathers up the peat into flesh, braids reeds into bone and takes rags for skin. It should not walk but when the night comes it walks. Should you who read this see one with a sword to your hand, lance it and let it out. Or put it to the torch, for it fears the flame.
So the variant translations about 'spectres' and 'devil corpses' might be more accurate. The idea of orcs as not a biological race but a horrific natural phenomena would be interesting.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 24, 2021, 09:38:37 AM
I am oddly reminded of the description, in Valheim, for where greydwarfs come from. They're not dwarves, for one thing.
QuoteLet all who read me beware of the Greydwarfs, the skulkers in darkness, the soulless ones.They are born from rot and rainfall, they spring like mushrooms from the smoking soil. There is nothing on their tongues or behind their eyes, those who fear nothing should still fear them. When the soul of a murderer or a great sinner rots under the ground, it makes a hollow cyst which draws rock and wood and moss to it. It gathers up the peat into flesh, braids reeds into bone and takes rags for skin. It should not walk but when the night comes it walks. Should you who read this see one with a sword to your hand, lance it and let it out. Or put it to the torch, for it fears the flame.
So the variant translations about 'spectres' and 'devil corpses' might be more accurate. The idea of orcs as not a biological race but a horrific natural phenomena would be interesting.
I recall that a number of monsters in folklore are the result of spontaneous generation. For example, the mandrake sprouts from the "drippings" of a hanged man and the basilisk hatches from a "cock egg" incubated by a toad. Then again, the same bestiaries that said that
also said that grain produces mice and meat produces maggots.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 24, 2021, 02:08:16 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 24, 2021, 09:38:37 AM
I am oddly reminded of the description, in Valheim, for where greydwarfs come from. They're not dwarves, for one thing.
QuoteLet all who read me beware of the Greydwarfs, the skulkers in darkness, the soulless ones.They are born from rot and rainfall, they spring like mushrooms from the smoking soil. There is nothing on their tongues or behind their eyes, those who fear nothing should still fear them. When the soul of a murderer or a great sinner rots under the ground, it makes a hollow cyst which draws rock and wood and moss to it. It gathers up the peat into flesh, braids reeds into bone and takes rags for skin. It should not walk but when the night comes it walks. Should you who read this see one with a sword to your hand, lance it and let it out. Or put it to the torch, for it fears the flame.
So the variant translations about 'spectres' and 'devil corpses' might be more accurate. The idea of orcs as not a biological race but a horrific natural phenomena would be interesting.
I recall that a number of monsters in folklore are the result of spontaneous generation. For example, the mandrake sprouts from the "drippings" of a hanged man and the basilisk hatches from a "cock egg" incubated by a toad. Then again, the same bestiaries that said that also said that grain produces mice and meat produces maggots.
Be kind, those authors hadn't quite worked out cause and effect yet :)
But yeah, spontaneous 'spawning' of critters, as opposed to trying to assemble something resembling a coherent life cycle, might be easier in the long run.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 24, 2021, 03:34:20 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 24, 2021, 02:08:16 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 24, 2021, 09:38:37 AM
I am oddly reminded of the description, in Valheim, for where greydwarfs come from. They're not dwarves, for one thing.
QuoteLet all who read me beware of the Greydwarfs, the skulkers in darkness, the soulless ones.They are born from rot and rainfall, they spring like mushrooms from the smoking soil. There is nothing on their tongues or behind their eyes, those who fear nothing should still fear them. When the soul of a murderer or a great sinner rots under the ground, it makes a hollow cyst which draws rock and wood and moss to it. It gathers up the peat into flesh, braids reeds into bone and takes rags for skin. It should not walk but when the night comes it walks. Should you who read this see one with a sword to your hand, lance it and let it out. Or put it to the torch, for it fears the flame.
So the variant translations about 'spectres' and 'devil corpses' might be more accurate. The idea of orcs as not a biological race but a horrific natural phenomena would be interesting.
I recall that a number of monsters in folklore are the result of spontaneous generation. For example, the mandrake sprouts from the "drippings" of a hanged man and the basilisk hatches from a "cock egg" incubated by a toad. Then again, the same bestiaries that said that also said that grain produces mice and meat produces maggots.
Be kind, those authors hadn't quite worked out cause and effect yet :)
But yeah, spontaneous 'spawning' of critters, as opposed to trying to assemble something resembling a coherent life cycle, might be easier in the long run.
The thing is, the basis of the fantasy genre is in obsolete scientific beliefs and folktales. The problem is that the people writing fantasy don't grow up in the context that gave rise to those beliefs and stories. Thus, authors project modern pop-sci onto fantasy concepts inherited from pre-industrial cultures for impressively unscientific results.
Coherent life cycles never made sense for fantasy settings, no matter how much old D&D and PF ecology articles tried. The typical mythological monsters are going to destroy any Earth-like ecosystem they enter, especially if they can reproduce themselves. You'd need spontaneous generation and other kinds of maintenance (probably run by all those nature gods imported from Greek mythology) to avoid a rapid extinction event. Your other option is to structure the ecology into a death world a la scifi novels... which then raises the question of why humans (and other races) aren't extinct or adapted into Catachan Jungle Fighters.
But I digress. The rabbit hole of "do fantasy worlds make sense?" is way too much for me right now. This article neatly summarizes what happens when you think that far: http://jbr.me.uk/mytho.html
QuoteSettings that are explicitly alternate versions of Earth with added magic are a different matter; it may be unclear what kind of spell is keeping the two dimensions in sync, but whatever it is, there's clearly nothing coincidental about para‐Paris being inhabited by speakers of para‐French. However, if this makes you think that the most plausible way of getting an epic fantasy world would be to adopt a compromise solution and sprinkle magic fairy dust on top of an evolving biosphere, beware! When you're planning a trip to some corner of the multiverse where wizardry is an inheritable ability to focus willpower and emotions to warp reality, it's vital to check that it doesn't also have evolution via natural selection, because the combination is bad news. After all, there's no reason to imagine the first appearance of the "gene for magic" would be in a sapient species. And genes aren't trying to make life nicer for their carriers; they aren't even working for the benefit of their species; no, the only thing a gene "wants" is to maximise the dispersal of copies of that gene itself. So feel free to go and visit some biosphere where the wildlife has developed thaumaturgical powers, but don't come back. If you arrive early enough to find it ruled by parasitic para‐wasps that can turn you into a willing host for their larvae, you're relatively lucky, because all the non‐magical parts of that insect are vestigial. Give it another million years and the place will be a witch's cauldron of cell cultures whose sole purpose is to pump out clouds of retroviral hex‐chromosomes. As you step through the portal, they'll be rewriting your genome as a new pool of octarine goo.
This is why reciting the MST3K mantra is practically mandatory for fantasy games :)
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 24, 2021, 07:54:32 PM
This is why reciting the MST3K mantra is practically mandatory for fantasy games :)
I was just about to say that.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2021, 01:15:06 PMIt's very strange watching these lunatics shoehorn their identity politics into the depictions of what are usually villains. You'd think they'd go after the heroes instead.
That's the whole point: to take what "normal society" would "reflexively" look at as a villain and show how that person's really just a misunderstood hero, or at least as worthy of moral sympathy as any more typical protagonist. Nobody needs to improve anyone's opinion of a hero. It's all about the moral rush of championing the underdog against ignorance-born prejudice and hostility.
The thing about fantasy is that it can create beings and characters where the hostility is neither ignorant nor prejudicial. SJ philosophy rejects this idea because they believe people given too much exposure to this concept start believing it possible in real life, which is where they think bigotry comes from.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 26, 2021, 03:48:55 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2021, 01:15:06 PMIt's very strange watching these lunatics shoehorn their identity politics into the depictions of what are usually villains. You'd think they'd go after the heroes instead.
That's the whole point: to take what "normal society" would "reflexively" look at as a villain and show how that person's really just a misunderstood hero, or at least as worthy of moral sympathy as any more typical protagonist. Nobody needs to improve anyone's opinion of a hero. It's all about the moral rush of championing the underdog against ignorance-born prejudice and hostility.
The thing about fantasy is that it can create beings and characters where the hostility is neither ignorant nor prejudicial. SJ philosophy rejects this idea because they believe people given too much exposure to this concept start believing it possible in real life, which is where they think bigotry comes from.
They believe that fiction can become real, because they want
their favorite fiction to become real. Therefore, they must suppress fiction that does not 100% agree with their favorite fiction, lest some other fiction become real instead of their favorite.
Quote from: RandyB on March 26, 2021, 05:33:46 PM
They believe that fiction can become real, because they want their favorite fiction to become real. Therefore, they must suppress fiction that does not 100% agree with their favorite fiction, lest some other fiction become real instead of their favorite.
Is this some fucked up Neverending Story crap?
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 26, 2021, 03:48:55 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 23, 2021, 01:15:06 PMIt's very strange watching these lunatics shoehorn their identity politics into the depictions of what are usually villains. You'd think they'd go after the heroes instead.
That's the whole point: to take what "normal society" would "reflexively" look at as a villain and show how that person's really just a misunderstood hero, or at least as worthy of moral sympathy as any more typical protagonist. Nobody needs to improve anyone's opinion of a hero. It's all about the moral rush of championing the underdog against ignorance-born prejudice and hostility.
The thing about fantasy is that it can create beings and characters where the hostility is neither ignorant nor prejudicial. SJ philosophy rejects this idea because they believe people given too much exposure to this concept start believing it possible in real life, which is where they think bigotry comes from.
In a nutshell. It also isn't true.
People are clearly able to distinguish between fictional orcs and real-life persecuted minorities. Watching
The Lord of the Rings or playing
Dungeons & Dragons is not going to make people racist if they weren't already.
Bigotry doesn't arise from reading stories about blue team fighting red team. Bigotry arises from people being actively
taught to hate others. When slavery was first exported to the Americas, people of any race were enslaved. As time passed, the slave population in the Americas came to be composed entirely of African people and their descendants. The masters invented racism as a justification for the slavery, saying that blacks were inferior to whites and this justified whites owning blacks. Over time this lack of empathy became increasingly virulent until we had lynch mobs.
Racism isn't an inherent property of human beings. Racism isn't propagated by stories about imaginary monsters. Racism is propagated deliberately by constructed narratives that are not remotely subtle in order to advance an agenda that benefits from it.
These SJWs would know that if they studied the subject before the SJW takeover of the 2010s like I did. My old textbooks literally stated this stuff. It's terrifying to imagine what I would have been taught if I went
now.
Quote from: Brad on March 26, 2021, 06:55:28 PM
Quote from: RandyB on March 26, 2021, 05:33:46 PM
They believe that fiction can become real, because they want their favorite fiction to become real. Therefore, they must suppress fiction that does not 100% agree with their favorite fiction, lest some other fiction become real instead of their favorite.
Is this some fucked up Neverending Story crap?
No, it's just typical fandom toxicity. The tumblr crowd is really bad about it. There are many horror stories about stuff like giving cookies containing
needles to crew members who worked on
Steven Universe, for example.
Quote from: Brad on March 26, 2021, 06:55:28 PM
Quote from: RandyB on March 26, 2021, 05:33:46 PM
They believe that fiction can become real, because they want their favorite fiction to become real. Therefore, they must suppress fiction that does not 100% agree with their favorite fiction, lest some other fiction become real instead of their favorite.
Is this some fucked up Neverending Story crap?
No.
It's postmodernism taken to its fullest conclusion, with "favorite fiction" as the template for their subjective worldview. If they can force everyone to act according to their worldview, then it is effectively real.
Then you have the "spiritual" ones, for whom it is an occult ritual writ large; to create the reality of their preference, again with the fiction as the template.
Good luck distinguishing one type from the other.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 26, 2021, 07:07:12 PMBigotry arises from people being actively taught to hate others.
With the caveat that people
can be "taught" by their own experiences, although as you say, even turning bad experiences into a philosophical principle usually requires indoctrination of some variety first.
QuoteNo, it's just typical fandom toxicity. The tumblr crowd is really bad about it. There are many horror stories about stuff like giving cookies containing needles to crew members who worked on Steven Universe, for example.
Good grief! Why did people do
that? I thought
Steven Universe was as close to a 100% beloved franchise as you could find on the SJ side of fandom.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 27, 2021, 01:02:41 AM
QuoteNo, it's just typical fandom toxicity. The tumblr crowd is really bad about it. There are many horror stories about stuff like giving cookies containing needles to crew members who worked on Steven Universe, for example.
Good grief! Why did people do that? I thought Steven Universe was as close to a 100% beloved franchise as you could find on the SJ side of fandom.
There is no beloved franchise in SJ fandom. They're all horribly toxic.
Watch Clownfish TV on youtube for various callouts of this awful behavior.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 27, 2021, 01:02:41 AM
QuoteNo, it's just typical fandom toxicity. The tumblr crowd is really bad about it. There are many horror stories about stuff like giving cookies containing needles to crew members who worked on Steven Universe, for example.
Good grief! Why did people do that? I thought Steven Universe was as close to a 100% beloved franchise as you could find on the SJ side of fandom.
It's the product of an entire generation reared by helicopter parents who gave them participating trophies and tried to bubblewrap the entire world for them. A generation of entitled overgrown children who never grew up and never learned to deal with the discomfort of not always having their way.
Then were fed some grandiose conspiracy theory that paints half the world as villains and the other half as victims, along with the justification for treating presumed "oppressors" as enemy combatants in some grand revolution, and anyone who doesn't side with them (or fails one of their purity tests) as one of these oppressors, or at least complicit with them. So any perceived slight (real or imagined) is viewed as violence and worthy of being met with actual violence in return.
One of the writers probably messed up someone's pronouns or something, or wrote an episode that somehow failed some obscure SJW purity standard at some point, so obviously the proportionate reaction was to feed them needles. This is why no hobby or fandom is safe from them—not even the ones they presumably like. Even RPG writers that openly side with them and join their cancel cult eventually get destroyed when they unwittingly commit a faux pas. They're violent pampered children throwing a tantrum. Reason and measured responses are beyond them.
Those people are trying to emotionally blackmail WotC to get jobs they do not deserve. If the leadership at WotC is too weak to fall in this most idiotic trap, so be it. The OGL ensures we can play D&D forever with the authorization of the most pathetic People's commissars : those too talentless to make their own games.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 22, 2021, 12:36:00 PMI think the equation of monsters with queers is disturbing, actually. Homophobic, even.
Vampires are basically a mix of cannibalism, demonic possession, and STDs. Equating that with being queer doesn't reflect well on queerness or the people making the comparison. Especially the bit about vampires being able to infect others and turn them into more vampires, which is not how being queer works (despite what some anti-queer groups may claim).
Vampires can be queer, sure, but their vampirism and queerness should not be causally linked.
Problem is. This is exactly how some gays treat being gay. As if it were a disease they want to spread to others to create more gays. And this has been a thing for a long time and why some folk have a very strong dislike of them because these types give everyone else a bad image. The push for this in recent years to practically force it on people is going to just make the negative view all the worse.
But this image is not new. Co-opting vampires as a "gay metaphor" is also just one in a long string of these claims, also not new.
Some storygamers and especially Pundits swine use similar tactics.
Yeah I'm down with the book of camp gay stereotypes my players can kill, where's their store page?
So what's everybody's favorite Anne Rice book.
I'm basic and like Interview best because it's a lot of talking about how being a vampire is awful. Lestat onwards just does a lot of retcons for the more active character, and like, I fuckin get that Rice, but it's got no poignancy.
Carmilla is pretty good too and it's like the better novel from the 19th century. Just two gals being pals!
Didn't read that much Anne Rice, so Taltos and several other sagas I cannot comment. But of her work I will say "Cry to Heaven" about a castrati vendetta story, a solid tragedy placed in Venice.
Of vampires... hard to beat Bram Stoker's "Dracula," even if it is quite long in the tooth (a-ha! try the veal, folks!) and lengthy to modern tastes. I recommend the audiobook for most people, though the Copolla movie version is exquisite and closest in current fidelity. LeFanu's "Carmilla" does deserve a nod, too.
Of the White Wolf novellas... I tried reading the Bloodlines series. I really soured after the Gangrel one and read up to Ventrue, if I remember correctly. I heard Nosferatu was the barn burner ending. Of what I read I would probably say Assamite or Setite were the more mature reads, with Ventrue and Toreador close runner ups. But that's with a heavy caveat that I knowingly rate gameline genre fiction exceedingly low bar. Apparently there's some old and new comics about for White Wolf vampires, who knows they might be better?, but I doubt it.
Of this drama... it's really a melodrama of people who preach virtues but only hold public concensus/popularity as the highest 'virtue'. Vanagloria, Superbia, the Sin of Pride. Basically a fight with drama queens and mean girls doing courtier battles. Best to let them eat themselves in their own "Dangerous Liaisons."
Quote from: Omega on April 12, 2021, 12:49:57 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 22, 2021, 12:36:00 PMI think the equation of monsters with queers is disturbing, actually. Homophobic, even.
Vampires are basically a mix of cannibalism, demonic possession, and STDs. Equating that with being queer doesn't reflect well on queerness or the people making the comparison. Especially the bit about vampires being able to infect others and turn them into more vampires, which is not how being queer works (despite what some anti-queer groups may claim).
Vampires can be queer, sure, but their vampirism and queerness should not be causally linked.
Problem is. This is exactly how some gays treat being gay. As if it were a disease they want to spread to others to create more gays. And this has been a thing for a long time and why some folk have a very strong dislike of them because these types give everyone else a bad image. The push for this in recent years to practically force it on people is going to just make the negative view all the worse.
But this image is not new. Co-opting vampires as a "gay metaphor" is also just one in a long string of these claims, also not new.
Some storygamers and especially Pundits swine use similar tactics.
Are you sure you're still talking about gays and not people advocating the use of puberty blockers and transgender surgery on children who don't conform to 1950s gender stereotypes?
Quote from: This Guy on April 12, 2021, 01:16:12 AM
So what's everybody's favorite Anne Rice book.
I'm basic and like Interview best because it's a lot of talking about how being a vampire is awful. Lestat onwards just does a lot of retcons for the more active character, and like, I fuckin get that Rice, but it's got no poignancy.
Carmilla is pretty good too and it's like the better novel from the 19th century. Just two gals being pals!
You probably won't like the other retcons Rice made involving Atlantis and ancient aliens.
Quote from: Opaopajr on April 12, 2021, 11:14:31 AM
Didn't read that much Anne Rice, so Taltos and several other sagas I cannot comment. But of her work I will say "Cry to Heaven" about a castrati vendetta story, a solid tragedy placed in Venice.
Of vampires... hard to beat Bram Stoker's "Dracula," even if it is quite long in the tooth (a-ha! try the veal, folks!) and lengthy to modern tastes. I recommend the audiobook for most people, though the Copolla movie version is exquisite and closest in current fidelity. LeFanu's "Carmilla" does deserve a nod, too.
Of the White Wolf novellas... I tried reading the Bloodlines series. I really soured after the Gangrel one and read up to Ventrue, if I remember correctly. I heard Nosferatu was the barn burner ending. Of what I read I would probably say Assamite or Setite were the more mature reads, with Ventrue and Toreador close runner ups. But that's with a heavy caveat that I knowingly rate gameline genre fiction exceedingly low bar. Apparently there's some old and new comics about for White Wolf vampires, who knows they might be better?, but I doubt it.
Of this drama... it's really a melodrama of people who preach virtues but only hold public concensus/popularity as the highest 'virtue'. Vanagloria, Superbia, the Sin of Pride. Basically a fight with drama queens and mean girls doing courtier battles. Best to let them eat themselves in their own "Dangerous Liaisons."
I recommend the vampire novels by French author Paul Feval. They were translated to English by indie publisher Black Coat Press (https://www.blackcoatpress.com/index.html). They translate a lot of French pulps.
In fact, there are a number of vampire stories (https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/111683.Victorian_Vampires) that predate
Dracula. I recommend any of those if you can find them.
If you like the idea of wildly different strains of vampirism in the same setting a la
Captain Kronos, then I recommend the
American Vampire comic by Scott Snyder and Rafael Albuquerque.
Cool cool I'll check out that castrati story, thx for the recommend. If you wanna try something a little more obscure from the 20th century check out Some of Your Blood by Theodore Sturgeon (yes it's the Sturgeon's Law guy). Hard to find in hardcopy so grab Kindle or audiobook, but me I say you want to grab Kindle because it's real good for a close read and picking out the omission of detail.
As for this book it's just the LGBT community having different opinions instead of a hive mind coz you got people who want openly gay villains because fuck representation, why should every fictional gay character have to be One Of The Good Ones, that's not real. And then you got your radfems and your tenderqueers who say fuck Messy Gay Characters, people are still mean to us in real life so we need more of the Good Ones and Positive Stories, and anyway depiction is endorsement.
A difference of opinion confuses the chud, and must make a video without the context explaining why.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 12, 2021, 11:28:14 AM
Quote from: This Guy on April 12, 2021, 01:16:12 AM
So what's everybody's favorite Anne Rice book.
I'm basic and like Interview best because it's a lot of talking about how being a vampire is awful. Lestat onwards just does a lot of retcons for the more active character, and like, I fuckin get that Rice, but it's got no poignancy.
Carmilla is pretty good too and it's like the better novel from the 19th century. Just two gals being pals!
You probably won't like the other retcons Rice made involving Atlantis and ancient aliens.
God dammit Rice. Series stops when the boy leaves the apartment to find Lestat, this is canon.
QuoteI recommend the vampire novels by French author Paul Feval. They were translated to English by indie publisher Black Coat Press (https://www.blackcoatpress.com/index.html). They translate a lot of French pulps.
In fact, there are a number of vampire stories (https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/111683.Victorian_Vampires) that predate Dracula. I recommend any of those if you can find them.
If you like the idea of wildly different strains of vampirism in the same setting a la Captain Kronos, then I recommend the American Vampire comic by Scott Snyder and Rafael Albuquerque.
Hell yeah, fucking jackpot.
Quote from: This Guy on April 12, 2021, 11:28:50 AM
As for this book it's just the LGBT community having different opinions instead of a hive mind coz you got people who want openly gay villains because fuck representation, why should every fictional gay character have to be One Of The Good Ones, that's not real. And then you got your radfems and your tenderqueers who say fuck Messy Gay Characters, people are still mean to us in real life so we need more of the Good Ones and Positive Stories, and anyway depiction is endorsement.
A difference of opinion confuses the chud, and must make a video without the context explaining why.
I get what you are saying, but you also have to consider the vast majority of the LGBT+ community also are not activists screeching at each other.
The artists among them just create compared to appealing to 'design by committee' polemicists. The artists outside that demographic used to create with LGBT+ in mind, but there has been a creative freezing due to hesitancy to attract the activist hornet nest upon them, which leads to other LGBT+ (the well-adjusted?) being frustrated by the patronizing polemics as "representation." This is predominantly a tempest in an activist teapot, who is increasingly ticking everyone off who just fucking want good tea instead of steam already. ;)
Also social media is a lead-lined teapot that leads to a toxic brew every time. 8) Starts sweet, ends in violence and tears.
Quote from: Opaopajr on April 12, 2021, 11:49:33 AM
I get what you are saying, but you also have to consider the vast majority of the LGBT+ community also are not activists screeching at each other.
The artists among them just create compared to appealing to 'design by committee' polemicists. The artists outside that demographic used to create with LGBT+ in mind, but there has been a creative freezing due to hesitancy to attract the activist hornet nest upon them, which leads to other LGBT+ (the well-adjusted?) being frustrated by the patronizing polemics as "representation." This is predominantly a tempest in an activist teapot, who is increasingly ticking everyone off who just fucking want good tea instead of steam already. ;)
Also social media is a lead-lined teapot that leads to a toxic brew every time. 8) Starts sweet, ends in violence and tears.
I got no specific claims re: heightened social media use in a marginalized demo but might be higher in this regard. Got no claims on levels of adjustment either.
And the artists among them
did create, book's written by a queer author. You wanna dig deep into the bones of this (and why would you unless you have real stake in it or a grift to run on warmed-over hot-take polemic videos for that sweet influence) this's an intersectionality fight among the LGBT community.
As said here and elsewhere. The problem is oft when you get a faction within a group that treats it as if it were a disease they need to spread to others. Preferably the younger the better now it seems. And of course there is going to be resistance. These extremist factions give the groups they are latched onto an increasingly negative image.
Look at how storygamers, or more to the point, Pundits swine and the worst of the Foregeites went at RPGs trying to co-opt RPGs to infest as many as they could. And resistance built up and still persists because they sure as hell have not given up.
Quote from: Omega on April 16, 2021, 02:43:29 PM
As said here and elsewhere. The problem is oft when you get a faction within a group that treats it as if it were a disease they need to spread to others. Preferably the younger the better now it seems. And of course there is going to be resistance. These extremist factions give the groups they are latched onto an increasingly negative image.
Look at how storygamers, or more to the point, Pundits swine and the worst of the Foregeites went at RPGs trying to co-opt RPGs to infest as many as they could. And resistance built up and still persists because they sure as hell have not given up.
A disease, a vermin, who must be cleansed with fire and murder.
Quote from: This Guy on April 16, 2021, 04:44:29 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 16, 2021, 02:43:29 PM
As said here and elsewhere. The problem is oft when you get a faction within a group that treats it as if it were a disease they need to spread to others. Preferably the younger the better now it seems. And of course there is going to be resistance. These extremist factions give the groups they are latched onto an increasingly negative image.
Look at how storygamers, or more to the point, Pundits swine and the worst of the Foregeites went at RPGs trying to co-opt RPGs to infest as many as they could. And resistance built up and still persists because they sure as hell have not given up.
A disease, a vermin, who must be cleansed with fire and murder.
Cant we use poison and murder like civilised people?
As depressing as it is to admit, I'm considering writing protagonists in my planned fiction as specifically queer in order to attract views. The queer community is apparently so starved for content that they'll flock to anything almost regardless of quality. (Normally I write characters as asexual because I'm not interested in writing those relationships.)
Quote from: Shasarak on April 16, 2021, 05:21:12 PM
Quote from: This Guy on April 16, 2021, 04:44:29 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 16, 2021, 02:43:29 PM
As said here and elsewhere. The problem is oft when you get a faction within a group that treats it as if it were a disease they need to spread to others. Preferably the younger the better now it seems. And of course there is going to be resistance. These extremist factions give the groups they are latched onto an increasingly negative image.
Look at how storygamers, or more to the point, Pundits swine and the worst of the Foregeites went at RPGs trying to co-opt RPGs to infest as many as they could. And resistance built up and still persists because they sure as hell have not given up.
A disease, a vermin, who must be cleansed with fire and murder.
Cant we use poison and murder like civilised people?
Even here I cannot escape civility discourse, what a society
Quote from: Shasarak on April 16, 2021, 05:21:12 PM
Quote from: This Guy on April 16, 2021, 04:44:29 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 16, 2021, 02:43:29 PM
As said here and elsewhere. The problem is oft when you get a faction within a group that treats it as if it were a disease they need to spread to others. Preferably the younger the better now it seems. And of course there is going to be resistance. These extremist factions give the groups they are latched onto an increasingly negative image.
Look at how storygamers, or more to the point, Pundits swine and the worst of the Foregeites went at RPGs trying to co-opt RPGs to infest as many as they could. And resistance built up and still persists because they sure as hell have not given up.
A disease, a vermin, who must be cleansed with fire and murder.
Cant we use poison and murder like civilised people?
No. More like insane people who treat this like it was a disease to spread. Is it any wonder normal LGBT people detest them?
No one would care if it werent for these nuts and the woke cult pushing this. And odds are the woke are pushing harder because of course. You gays arent fighting enough! We must 'help' you!
Quote from: Omega on April 16, 2021, 07:22:08 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on April 16, 2021, 05:21:12 PM
Quote from: This Guy on April 16, 2021, 04:44:29 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 16, 2021, 02:43:29 PM
As said here and elsewhere. The problem is oft when you get a faction within a group that treats it as if it were a disease they need to spread to others. Preferably the younger the better now it seems. And of course there is going to be resistance. These extremist factions give the groups they are latched onto an increasingly negative image.
Look at how storygamers, or more to the point, Pundits swine and the worst of the Foregeites went at RPGs trying to co-opt RPGs to infest as many as they could. And resistance built up and still persists because they sure as hell have not given up.
A disease, a vermin, who must be cleansed with fire and murder.
Cant we use poison and murder like civilised people?
No. More like insane people who treat this like it was a disease to spread. Is it any wonder normal LGBT people detest them?
No one would care if it werent for these nuts and the woke cult pushing this. And odds are the woke are pushing harder because of course. You gays arent fighting enough! We must 'help' you!
If only the unwoke sane people pushed it instead. Why can't they do that