Quote from: S'mon;1061265Not really. It's a bit like if The Angry DM did sandbox the way he did megadungeon. It apes the form without really understanding it imo.

Yeah this: "sandbox" as a technique is at odds with AW's "make it up based on what the player just rolled" style of game structure.

I'm not judging AW here, I'm just saying that it's doing something different than a big hexmap filled with stuff. It has a fundamentally different approach in it's attitude to game prep and running.

I don't know much about blades; I'd have to read it before I made that kind of proclamation.

I do judge Pathfinder, though, because it's tremendously boring and tedious. Their idea of a hexcrawl resource seems to be "a book of bad fiction with some monster stats", which is absolutely not what I'm talking about.

To be clear I was referring to Kingmaker, though I definitely think AW is not conducive to the exploration element of sandboxing. It does seem designed for a Dead wood type setup which is a sort of town based sandbox I guess. But really story games are a different thing from old school sandbox games.

Quote from: S'mon;1061265Not really. It's a bit like if The Angry DM did sandbox the way he did megadungeon. It apes the form without really understanding it imo.

Why do you say that? Care to elaborate? Never read or played it but only heard good things about it.

Quote from: Azraele;1061269Yeah this: "sandbox" as a technique is at odds with AW's "make it up based on what the player just rolled" style of game structure.

I'm not judging AW here, I'm just saying that it's doing something different than a big hexmap filled with stuff. It has a fundamentally different approach in it's attitude to game prep and running.

I think there are different types of sandboxing. You have ye olde hexmap crawls where exploration is more of the physical or geographical sort; you have urban sandboxes where the exploration is more social and political like seen in VtM's Chicago by Night or CP 2020 Night City; you have more personal drama-oriented sandboxes like Smallvile and Monsterhearts, etc.

I would say Apocalypse World and PbtA in general are a mix of the later two, while Blades is a mix of all those (geographic + political + personal).

I'm not into but am generally fine w/ PbtA games. However, they don't *SEEM* sandboxy to me. That is, you're supposed to make everything up at the table, mostly with the players doing the making up part. Which is cool, but not really a traditional sandbox approach

PencilBoy, you just "make everything up" in first session to create the setting (or part of it) collaboratively. After that through, there's no "world-editing" or anything of the sort, and the world is in the hands of the GM. The Cannibals from Junk Pit must be dealt with in the same way as if it was in D&D's Blackmoor or RQ' Borderlands. What's important regarding sandbox as a concept, I think, is that the group is free to go wherever they may and the setting various entities/factions/npcs will react to that while pushing for their own agendas. In other words: it's a player-driven experience, within a simulation of a world in motion.

Now if you meant just Hexcrawls in the OP, with specific tables with entities for each Hex etc, then that's fair, as that kind of geographic minutia is not really the point of PbtA.

Quote from: Itachi;1061297In other words: there's a simulation in place of a world in motion.

I think this is the essence of it, yes. If AW does that, it's a sandbox.

So, can I have my cookie back?

Quote from: Itachi;1061292Why do you say that? Care to elaborate? Never read or played it but only heard good things about it.

I have KM 1-3 & 5 but have not GM'd it so this is just an impression. It seems to be pretty much a regular story path with a light sandbox veneer.  From what I recall there's a lot of X happens then Y happens then Z happens, and dungeons to be done in order.

An actual published sandbox campaign looks like Stonehell Dungeon, which I'm currently running - it has tons of stuff but it doesn't have a pre-written story.

Thanks *Itachi* that's a good explanation of PbtA (I've only played, never run, and not played AW).

I'll pimp my latest work: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/254216/Piracy-and-Privateering

It's a system neutral science fiction supplement 84 pages long, detailing how to run or play in a sandbox space pirate or privateer campaign.  What makes it sandbox is that I've included a fully developed set of encounter rules to randomly generate stuff in each region of a system: ships, stations, etc.  I've also been using said rules for the past six months as the primary engine powering two Stars Without Number campaigns.  So, generate your sector, generate your pirate PCs, and go.

very cool

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1061306very cool

Thanks! Was fun to write!

Quote from: S'mon;1061300I have KM 1-3 & 5 but have not GM'd it so this is just an impression. It seems to be pretty much a regular story path with a light sandbox veneer.  From what I recall there's a lot of X happens then Y happens then Z happens, and dungeons to be done in order.

An actual published sandbox campaign looks like Stonehell Dungeon, which I'm currently running - it has tons of stuff but it doesn't have a pre-written story.

Yeah, it feels more like a branching adventure than an actual sandbox for me too. Thanks for clarifying S'mon.

Quote from: S'mon;1061300I have KM 1-3 & 5 but have not GM'd it so this is just an impression. It seems to be pretty much a regular story path with a light sandbox veneer.  From what I recall there's a lot of X happens then Y happens then Z happens, and dungeons to be done in order.

An actual published sandbox campaign looks like Stonehell Dungeon, which I'm currently running - it has tons of stuff but it doesn't have a pre-written story.

Yeah railroads with a sandbox veneer get aggravating, same thing with the Curse of Stradh for 5ed.