Quote from: trechriron;1122428Well, many HERO-philes passed on this and some of us are glad we did. Apparently it's a master's thesis, not a game. One of the gems from the Discord...



My response was "I'm so surprised!!"

Now, I'm trying to figure out WHY in the seven hells of story gaming HERO games embarked on this project to begin with. Hiring the enemy of traditional RPG gaming to re-work your traditional RPG game seems... stupid?

Yup. Profoundly stupid. But people in the RPG "industry" seem determined to frequently do very stupid things.

A friend let me look at the PDF of this. And I took a very long look at it. Analyzing pretty much every part as I went along.

It's an ode to the days of 3rd edition Champions. When the game was much simpler. Which has pros and cons to it. But it has enough classic Champions DNA for me to consider this firmly in the RPG category.

I make no bones about saying so. This is a major departure from the 6th Edition methodology. And as such, it's going to get some serious backlash from the grognard set. The people who hated Fuzion are certain to hate Champions Now for many of the same reasons. The prime of it being? Too much change.

But honestly? I'm going to buy a physical version of Champions Now. I want to try it out, kick its tires, and give it some serious stress testing. So yeah. I'm going to give it a chance. And play it in the wild.

Is this how the "Lord of SJWs" invades rpgs?

I won't buy or even read it, because I know it's SJW filth: I've never needed a game designer to tell me how exactly to play or run his/her game: the best wrote that I can play/run it as I like --- I went from there.

Edwards is a goof and deserves as much attention as a tampon commercial.

Hero System 6th edition isn't selling. Champions Now is a chance to actually make products that sell. That's the bottom line.

Like or hate Edwards. He's bringing a new expression to a decades-old property.

Still. I expect the grognard set to treat Champions Now the same they did Fuzion. Because they hate any kind of change and departure from what they think is Hero System orthodoxy.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1123313Hero System 6th edition isn't selling. Champions Now is a chance to actually make products that sell. That's the bottom line.

Like or hate Edwards. He's bringing a new expression to a decades-old property.

Still. I expect the grognard set to treat Champions Now the same they did Fuzion. Because they hate any kind of change and departure from what they think is Hero System orthodoxy.

While I have heard a few good things about 6th edition, what I have heard hasn't compelled me to go beyond 5th Edition Revised. The 5th Edition Revised book includes everything you need really to run any kind of game. Yes, they walked into a 'competing with your previous version' situation but you can't just throw your arms up and not respond to it. Champions Now doesn't look like it was the right product to do that. It simply looks like an opportunity that just walked in the door one day, and someone said 'it can't hurt, go ahead.'

When I look at 6th edition, I see a lot of 'core books' that individually cost more but do not provide compelling value. Also, I don't see a company actively engaged in changing their practices to be successful.

Maybe I would look at a 6th Edition Revised, but I think they'd do better in shipping a 7th Edition single volume, well designed and also, with a really, really well engineered PDF version designed for mobile devices, including printing from mobile devices. Throw in a free and flexible character designer / portfolio which has compelling upsells.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1123313Hero System 6th edition isn't selling. Champions Now is a chance to actually make products that sell. That's the bottom line.

Like or hate Edwards. He's bringing a new expression to a decades-old property.

Still. I expect the grognard set to treat Champions Now the same they did Fuzion. Because they hate any kind of change and departure from what they think is Hero System orthodoxy.

So are the grognards that ruined HERO the ones who like 6th ed, don't like 6th ed, stayed with 4th ed (or 3rd ed for that matter), I get so confused.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1123686So are the grognards that ruined HERO the ones who like 6th ed, don't like 6th ed, stayed with 4th ed (or 3rd ed for that matter), I get so confused.

6th edition and prior. The Hero System hasn't had a significant change since 4th edition. All of the editions that came after was just more of the same. Which ran off the more mainstream fans,

The grognards are the ones who hated Fuzion and whined nonstop to get their way. Until the original owners finally gave up and sold the company to be done with it.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;11236986th edition and prior. The Hero System hasn't had a significant change since 4th edition. All of the editions that came after was just more of the same. Which ran off the more mainstream fans, The grognards are the ones who hated Fuzion and whined nonstop to get their way. Until the original owners finally gave up and sold the company to be done with it.

Maybe the issue wasn't why they didn't want to move to Fuzion but why would they? Normally, new versions compete with old versions, and systems compete with each other.

I haven't played the Fusion stuff (though I believe I played a precursor at some point). Nothing really leaps out to me as to why I would consider replacing Hero with it. Giving the base rules away seems to be a great idea, but beyond that, why?

I run into a similar problem in trying to sell tech products into a mature market space, but the trick always comes down to the niche you do really well and the customers that are convinced they need whatever very specific feature you offer. It isn't whining really, but selling advantages vs inertia.  Other than free, Fuzion doesn't seem to be really selling me. What should have convinced people to switch?

Quote from: Lynn;1123727Maybe the issue wasn't why they didn't want to move to Fuzion but why would they? Normally, new versions compete with old versions, and systems compete with each other.

Fuzion was both a research project and a series of really bad mistakes. The biggest mistake was in rushing it out the door before it was even finished. Which made its reception a disaster. But the research project? Still has a good foundation. I should know. I submitted the info that was used for the basis of Fuzion to Steve Peterson directly in the first place.

They did not finish the necessary research. They only had the beginning of it. And used that to rush several incomplete products out the door. Which naturally wasn't going to succeed. Because the job wasn't done in the first place.

The next phase of that information I gave was to be a complete strip-down and examination of the Hero System to its basic core elements. And then to use the information gained in analysis to make a more streamlined, user-friendly product. There was a whole lot left to be done before an actual workable product was ready for print.

But the grognards? They discouraged even trying. Loudly. They wanted no change at all.

And what has that grognard whining resulted in? Everybody else driven off. The grognards happily have their books. They don't need to buy and won't buy new ones unless they have to. Which, as customers for any business, makes them less than useless.

The Hero System isn't selling. And the company can't survive with things in that state. They have to appeal to a new audience, or face extinction.

Champions Now is a new start. A definite departure from the previous methodology. And it is a brave and bold move. Something needed every much now as in the days of Fuzion. Will it work? I don't know. I'm not a fortune teller. But at least they are still trying!

QuoteI haven't played the Fusion stuff (though I believe I played a precursor at some point). Nothing really leaps out to me as to why I would consider replacing Hero with it. Giving the base rules away seems to be a great idea, but beyond that, why?

The reason for it replacing Hero? Simple. Something more userfriendly. Something still built in the spirit of the Hero System. And one that still delivered on the original premises. But got rid of all of negatives that had built up. Simple product evolution.

QuoteI run into a similar problem in trying to sell tech products into a mature market space, but the trick always comes down to the niche you do really well and the customers that are convinced they need whatever very specific feature you offer. It isn't whining really, but selling advantages vs inertia.  Other than free, Fuzion doesn't seem to be really selling me. What should have convinced people to switch?

A complete product. For one. One that actually delivered on all of the Hero System's promises. Without the unnecessarily complicated bits. But as I said above. Fuzion wasn't that because it was an incomplete effort. It didn't succeed because it couldn't. It wasn't allowed to even come close because the toxic part of the fanbase that has now succeeded in driving everybody else away but themselves.

Champions Now is a chance at a new start. A chance at gaining a new audience. If the company can finally be brave enough to show the grognards the door. And never look back.

Yes and we all know how great and good totally changing a games system. :rolleyes:

Champions Now isn't a big change from Champions 3E but it's sorta a backpedal to be fair.

Quote from: Omega;1123938Yes and we all know how great and good totally changing a games system. :rolleyes:

The same can be said of not changing an rpg either. Hero Games is on life support. With the fan base being in complete denial about the situation while expecting a complete and miraculous turn around any day now...any day. Then bemoan that they cannot find anyone to play or run the game.

Change can harm an rpg yet if the rpg and company that produces it is dying a slow death might as well try to salvage it.

Time to buy some GURPS books

- Ed C.

I liked the original Champions quite well, though we abandoned it when MSH came out.

One of the worst gaming sessions I've ever had in my life was playing Champions 4th edition with some grognards. Humorless, system obsessed, and they were engineers so delighted in all the number crunching.

Quote from: trechriron;1122428Now, I'm trying to figure out WHY in the seven hells of story gaming HERO games embarked on this project to begin with. Hiring the enemy of traditional RPG gaming to re-work your traditional RPG game seems... stupid?

Oh well. HERO 6th Edition is a fine game. HERO 5th Edition is also a solid game. GURPS 4th Edition is an amazing game. Won't be hard to avoid the Ron Edward's nonsense and find a fine generic system to work with. It's head-scratching watching owners piss their companies down the toilet on stupid mistakes.

Ron Edwards. The name sounds familiar. Oh, no. It's that Adept Play guy on YouTube.