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Author Topic: Ron Edward's Champions Now  (Read 17941 times)

trechriron

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« on: February 17, 2020, 03:19:01 PM »
Well, many HERO-philes passed on this and some of us are glad we did. Apparently it's a master's thesis, not a game. One of the gems from the Discord...

Quote
I'm about halfway through the book, and... wow.

I feel like I'm reading a transcript of a series of lectures on the Champions Now rulebook... which is in Professor Ron's brain and not actually available for review.  :smile:

There's a game in there, but the real important part, it seems, is a lot of pontificating on story gaming, micro-histories of published characters, thinly-veiled smacktalk for a number of existing story games, and so on.


My response was "I'm so surprised!!"

Now, I'm trying to figure out WHY in the seven hells of story gaming HERO games embarked on this project to begin with. Hiring the enemy of traditional RPG gaming to re-work your traditional RPG game seems... stupid?

Oh well. HERO 6th Edition is a fine game. HERO 5th Edition is also a solid game. GURPS 4th Edition is an amazing game. Won't be hard to avoid the Ron Edward's nonsense and find a fine generic system to work with. It's head-scratching watching owners piss their companies down the toilet on stupid mistakes.

Anyone else here pick up Champions Now via KS? Thoughts on the game?
Trentin C Bergeron (trechriron)
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Omega

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2020, 06:16:19 PM »
Quote from: trechriron;1122428
Well, many HERO-philes passed on this and some of us are glad we did. Apparently it's a master's thesis, not a game. One of the gems from the Discord...



My response was "I'm so surprised!!"

Now, I'm trying to figure out WHY in the seven hells of story gaming HERO games embarked on this project to begin with. Hiring the enemy of traditional RPG gaming to re-work your traditional RPG game seems... stupid?

Oh well. HERO 6th Edition is a fine game. HERO 5th Edition is also a solid game. GURPS 4th Edition is an amazing game. Won't be hard to avoid the Ron Edward's nonsense and find a fine generic system to work with. It's head-scratching watching owners piss their companies down the toilet on stupid mistakes.

Anyone else here pick up Champions Now via KS? Thoughts on the game?

Most likely Ron or someone else convinced them that is was a "great idea!" and would "garner them lots of sales!" How much did the KS actually make and how late is it now? Have print versions been sent yet? (Quick check shows it made only 24k before production and shipping. And is what looks like a year late.)

In other cases its usually much the same situation. Someone convinces the higher ups that putting the worst person possible on the project is a guarantee to profit! I suspect that alot of these cases in the last 10+ years are also instances of the outrage marketing fad. Marketing got the "brilliant" idea that the best way to sell your product was to piss off as many of your original customers and fans as possible. Their bitching attracts interest of non-fans and is essentially free advertising as it is believed more people will buy the product now out of curiosity than you are losing older customers. That and some older pissed off fans will get it anyhow sooner or later simply so they can play with new groups using the new hated system.

And so on ad absolute nausium.

Who knows why Hero gave this to Ron.

As for the game itself. Can any mere mortal read this eldritch tome without having their sanity irrevocably destroyed?

NeonAce

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2020, 07:06:05 PM »
I backed the Kickstarter, and I'm pretty happy with it.

I like that it has a strong authorial voice. It's clear that Ron was passionate about the project and his excitement for it comes through. I like a game to be written with passion and a strong point of view, over a detached instruction manual vibe. There is something to the criticism on its presentation, though. I think a good 2 page character creation spread, or a stronger separation between the "nuts and bolts" and the more "discussion-like" parts would have made for an easier to reference rule book. Another thing that I like is that it is based on earlier, pre-Hero System Champions. Later Champions is often compared to GURPS in that it tries to encompass the simulation of many things and can serve as a "Universal" RPG. You're not gonna find a big comprehensive list of skills in Champions Now, because the game's not about that, and I like a game that chooses a focus and is clear about letting you know what it is and how it supports that. Ron does a pretty good job of explaining why he made the choices he did, and it's something I wish more people would do with their games. A lot of games just kind of dump themselves in your lap and expect you to understand why everything is the way it is. Sometimes people figure it out, and other times people bring their pre-existing assumptions from other games to a game and judge it based on those terms, missing what a game is trying to do differently, etc.

Anyways, yeah, mostly digging it.

Toadmaster

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2020, 08:42:40 PM »
Understand it has around 50 pages of "introduction". My copy of Champions 2E has a total of 68 pages, so the intro is almost the size of the original complete game.

GeekyBugle

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2020, 08:45:48 PM »
Quote from: Toadmaster;1122468
Understand it has around 50 pages of "introduction". My copy of Champions 2E has a total of 68 pages, so the intro is almost the size of the original complete game.

It's almost like they paid him by the word. Either that or he loves the sound of his voice so much and thinks his opinions are so important and everybody wants to know them.
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Brad

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2020, 08:54:27 PM »
Quote from: Toadmaster;1122468
Understand it has around 50 pages of "introduction". My copy of Champions 2E has a total of 68 pages, so the intro is almost the size of the original complete game.

I played Champions 2nd edition every day for about a month after my brother got it for me, 1988..? The year the 49ers beat the Bengals in the Superbowl when they had Ickey Woods. I remember that game vividly because I was living in the Dayton area at the time and we had a Bengals day at school, not joking. Anyway, yeah, that game was succinct and coherent. We must have made fifty characters and ran them through all sorts of combats. By far my favorite version of the game.

I can't even imagine 50 pages of introduction for an RPG. That just seems ludicrous.
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Steven Mitchell

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2020, 09:22:58 PM »
Maybe this was a brilliant plan to make the 5E to 6E change more tame by comparison? :)

DeadUematsu

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2020, 09:55:37 PM »
Quote from: Toadmaster;1122468
Understand it has around 50 pages of "introduction". My copy of Champions 2E has a total of 68 pages, so the intro is almost the size of the original complete game.

The 50 pages of introduction is a misleading statement given the book's dimensions.

I left pretty extensive thoughts going through half of the book (in comparison to the rando trechriron decided to quote) on his unofficial discord and although there is a lot of obtuse writing, Ron wrote in full support of the old (1e-3e) Champions mechanics with his own flourishes.

I've decided to reproduce some of them (the initial ones) here (with some formatting/editing) to temper (misinformed) opinions.

Chapter One
Diamonds in the Rough - Didn't care for this section at all.

This Game, Your Game - Rules about roles... are busy. Not sure how I feel about anyone at the table being able to flourish detail about circumstances and outcome. The same thing is also essentially said twice. Past that the text waxes poetically. I guess it's supposed to rev you up?

What is this Version? is a more transparent explanation/genealogy about what Champions Now is and, in a fashion, explains the why.

The What Now? is basically equivalent to the Same Page Tool. You're supposed to be playing in the "Now" (Earth+, w/ weight given to what you care about), conflicts should emerge from the heroes and villains, there should be a rich supporting cast (specifically not satellites), and outcomes should arise organically (the reader/GM is called out not to plan too much).

References section at the end of the chapter lists out a timeline of publisher events and superhero RPG publications in addition to having the footnotes

Conclusion - All in all, you are buying a very Ron book so far.

Chapter Two
The Basics starts off with the premise that the game is a negotiation between the various character sheets with no meta-level manipulations (fair) before getting into the monotonic gold of framing statements by exploring an example character (and its originating statements). You then go into the Situations (Complications), Characteristics, Skills, and Powers of said character seeded with some mechanical explanation/elaboration of said elements. The upshot is that the sheet is supposed to interpreted (with Situations being upfront I guess encouraging) as having narrative weight as opposed to being disparate mechanics which you then explain away as an afterthought. It then goes into Space and Time (detailing hexes, Speed, initiative Order) and Fighting (pretty self-explanatory). It then cares to mention things that are exceptions to these in Details and Oddballs (for example, how talking is a free action, the existence of Luck and Unluck, opportunity bonuses, etc.) That section caps off by basically saying that color precedes the mechanics and the mechanics simply represent what can be done reliably... this is the one of the most clearly stated intent statements I've come across in the book so far.

Chapter Three
Your Game is basically for the GM with the lead-in paragraphs practically telling the GM to not concern themselves ultimately with genre expectations outside the group. In other words, the table down the road playing muscle sharks on bikes. Fuck them. You can roll your cougar ninja housewife squad without giving them two shits.

Organizing Play starts off with telling the GM to get a number of people to play - in particularly those who share what the GM likes. Afterwards, it suggests what the GM should tell the players about the game mechanics right off the bat - that heroes are built from points (fair) and points are faithful to how heroes were initially introduced (sure). It then describes that a session of play is like a single issue but based on the buy-in, prep-work, and hero changes, a multi-session game experience is the most appreciative way of running this before warning the GM not to go planning ahead too much (an issue or two ahead is fine). This is fair advice.

Setting and Concept is practically the clarification of the What Now from Chapter One. What is the setting like? Real world with supers without much concern about the why. The idea is that why and the setting is made through play but you need a strong push to get you started. Thus come the framing statements which are RULES (not guides or suggestions) and the GM should have them when people get together. One should be about superpowers, the other about fictional style and problems to be tackled (not superpower-related, location inclusive). Key is that it is not a pitch and not to be discussed, debated, or explained (the fun is in how players interpret it). Optionally, the GM is to provide one or two example comics page with a distinctive art style and a super-naming convention that everyone uses. Four specific actual play examples then follow with a big list of further example framing statements following afterwards. The book at this point implores the GM to use whatever statements they want but to get on it. It then addresses the players with a number of bullet points to 1) not guess the GM's wants or plans but to do what they can to please themselves (this is probably why it's important to invite only players who have aligned interests), 2) not to get distracted by the origin of superpowers and how they work, and 3) not to engage in debates over what superheroes would or should do. Instead the following paragraph states that they should focus on who their hero, what they can do, and what is important to them. Bear in mind that the framing statements are still elementary but morality, content, and genre are up to the player to decide. Of course, in a roundabout fashion, the book alludes that those decisions might eliminate (or self-eliminate) a player so while it is smart for a GM to know who they're dealing with before the invite, I can't help but be annoyed that any potential red buttons weren't addressed in a clear adult manner. My thoughts on the bullet points... I think they're there to discourage signaling, to ensure the player owns what they submit, instead of trying to guess what the GM would like to see and then being a total tool when the GM calls their bluff.

Chapter Four is Special Effects.
The lead-in, Bare Essentials, flat out states that the mechanics need to be dressed up in fictional terms. For example, your Blast mechanic needs to be "mystical", "fire", etc. It's mandatory. This is sorta a no-brainer but being explicitly about it is helpful.
It sorta reminds me of a story shared with me by another GM where he was running Champions at a convention once. He had a player who was playing a character with a VPP and the player just described everything he was doing through mechanics. Is there something wrong with this? Hell ya! Imagine a Silver Surfer comic with this guy writing every one of Silver Surfer's actions in the same cold clinical mechanical wrapping. To continue the aside, yes, I get that people get their enjoyment from different aspects when it comes to RPGs but the mechanical wrapping has always been a part of the game and someone ignoring that is frankly ejecting the rest of the game they agreed to play to silo in only on which they enjoy which is frankly sizes them up for a booting just like any other singular focus. To put in other words, this is a material difference between the guy who describes he is using his Cosmic Blast and 12d6 blast, but I digress. Back to the book...

With Teeth elaborates on why setting the narrative elements are important. Here (but pretty much in all editions of Champions/Hero System), they have teeth. Basically the SFX sets the baseline and the mechanics serve as the precise presentation of what the SFX is trying to accomplish at that point in time. Together they determine what happens. A three box graph lays out how this all works. So in any situation a particular SFX could be advantaged or not. It then goes into further discussion before further elaborating how this could work out in play. It also discusses how the SFX could alter the baseline mechanic but also how it could replace it entirely. To not use examples in the book, I'll make my own. For starters, a water blast could leave an area wet (altering the baseline of a Blast) while shooting a jet of water into someone's diving apparatus could instead cause suffocation (effectively replacing the normal Blast with a potential continuous NND). This is smart deliberation and I can see why SFX rules were subordinated to the mechanics over time... mechanics are clear and easy, situations and adjudication is hard and messy. All in all, the section ends with the clear statement that SFX are supposed to do things. Of course, it's exhaustive to go into what each and every special effect ought to do but I think this section puts people on the right path in changing mentalities.

And if that didn't the next section, At The Table, should. It starts by reminding that SFX as teeth is a double-edged sword and though you can play without ever applying the teeth (in either direction), it loosens up play if you do (which can be a good thing). It then goes into how to do this in practice by offering a recommended sequence of how to build up to this (by first describing the SFX of powers all the time often and early and then introducing the teeth once the default uses are well established) and establishing a tempo of when they kick in. The advice is sound but it requires work and it's easy to forget about using it in practice (especially if you have some fairly dull or mostly non-applicable SFX in play). One idea I have is simply tying the teeth to the result of the success roll as a reminder that they are there in addition to the advice. Of course, the book warns about not using the teeth too much but I can't help by think that this monotonic gold is going to be lost in "how we usually do things" in any other way.

The next section, Modifiers, elaborates on what Advantages and Limitations mean alongside this interpretation. They are not meant to enable what your SFX can do but instead represent nuances of your SFX that you want to see all the time. Astounding! It's like this chapter is where all of the smart ideas decided to root. It then elaborates using Iron Man as an example of how these Modifiers should be treated in play. It's fairly sensible but the real key advice is restated at the section's end - that you should also use Modifiers if you want them to cause consequences consistently in play. Otherwise, the teeth should suffice (if you can keep them in mind).

The next section, Story Power, closes the chapter (before References) by summarizing the premises of the previous sections and fully copping that it is up to the group to take the conceits where they are comfortable with (which is fine). It also adds that SFX are there to recognize the potential of the imagined powers and not there to manipulate the situation by fiat with the upshot being to focus on what is obvious and to avoid inventing (BS) for an advantage.
Fair advice though I can imagine some clowns skipping/forgetting about this entirely.

Chapter 5 is Hero Making.
Skipping ahead, yes, this is character generation chapter but it is tied heavily with Chapter 6 (Structural Mechanics) of the mechanics characters are comprised of. For simplicity's sake, I will focus solely on this chapter. Hero Making leads in with by speaking to the player and comforting them by saying that the process is a lot less intense than it looks (which can be true). As a concession, it even says that the player has wiggle room to adjust after actual play (I'll look out for how this works because IME there are certain players who will adjust all the damn time if you let them).

Three Corners is the first section after the lead-in. It describes what is essentially the triangle of character foundations - the person, the problems, and the powers - and specify how to go about developing them and more importantly not to dive deep into mechanics just yet. Sound advice. Especially the latter part. With that out of the way, it uses Ruby Ray as an example of how to do the Three Corners and it's a solid example too but... if you look at Ruby Ray's second triangle (in the book), you'll note that there is an inner triangle which is actually the elaboration on how the three subjects come together. It would have been nice if there was more precise discussion on that but seeing it in the physical is good nonetheless. The section closes off with a sub-section called Unconventional Notions. It's fun and VERY non-traditional advice for Champions (and perhaps superhero in general) games. To wit, originality, origin stories, superhero archetypes, and even naming conventions are to be not dogmatically pursued which makes sense in the context of the examples given. One callout which may ruffle some feather is that this is NOT a tactical game so having a perfect allotment between offense, defense, movement, and utility is to be avoided and heck even making oneself invulnerable is discouraged. This is not a game where lengthy dust-ups between balanced forces are the point but that getting knocked out sometimes is. I sympathize with that notion as most Champions fights are barely memorable but those that were anything but balanced or even about the fight. Let's see, from my own experience, almost all good confrontations I recall were about the talky bits (talking down well-intention-ed extremists into stopping their destructive plans or hope-speeching a mind-controlled super into breaking said control), the heroes doing something terrible/extreme (the former happens more than you think when the latter would be more ideal), or the heroes are on the ropes (which lead them to using their smarts instead of their firepower). I'm fairly certain that piece of advice will be ignored but I can imagine applying that advice alone would shake up (piss off) a lot of Champions tables. The UN section caps off with the outlier heroes and states as long as blanks/deficient in one corner are covered in the supporting cast, all is good though I imagine you can identify a clown by their refusal to even make up the deficient there.

Continue?
 

GameDaddy
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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2020, 10:34:27 PM »
Quote from: Brad;1122471
I played Champions 2nd edition every day for about a month after my brother got it for me, 1988..? The year the 49ers beat the Bengals in the Superbowl when they had Ickey Woods. I remember that game vividly because I was living in the Dayton area at the time and we had a Bengals day at school, not joking. Anyway, yeah, that game was succinct and coherent. We must have made fifty characters and ran them through all sorts of combats. By far my favorite version of the game.

I can't even imagine 50 pages of introduction for an RPG. That just seems ludicrous.


Champions was one of my favorite games in 85-86 when I was stationed in Korea. We played at least once a week in the rec room of Headquarters, Headquarters Company, Eighth United States Army, Yongsan (Seoul), Korea. OOOooh Raaaah!

I really am Jones'n for a fistful of d6's!
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Jaeger

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2020, 01:35:32 AM »
Quote from: DeadUematsu;1122475

...
Chapter Two
The Basics: starts off with the premise that the game is a negotiation between the various character sheets with no meta-level manipulations (fair) before getting into the monotonic gold of framing statements by exploring an example character (and its originating statements). ...


What. The. Fuck.
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trechriron

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2020, 04:26:09 AM »
It's funny. When the story gamers talk about RPGs it's like two completely different languages. It's like trying to parse out the language in that Star Trek Next Generation episode. I see the words. I read them. I read them again. I just don't get it.

In an attempt to understand, can @DeadUematsu or @NeonAce give us a mock-play example? Maybe something like...

1. The GM sets the scene describing the deadliness of the robot ninjas shooting energy shurikens and destroying cars, buildings and passerby.
2. The GM then starts counting down from highest dex to lowest, in Speed order. Basket Man goes first with Speed 5, DEX 20 (top of segment 0, turn 0).
3. He drops a 12d6 Blast of Sonic Energy (area of effect 5m radius) in the midst of the robo-ninjas hoping to stun a few and lessen the carnage.
4. He rolls his attack vs. a Defensive Combat Value (DCV) of 3 to hit the hex in the middle of 'em.
5. Adding 11 to his Offensive Combat Value of 7, he rolls 3d6 and subtracts the result. Scoring a 10 on the roll, Basket Man hits a DCV of 8, more than enough to place the Blast right on point!
6. Rolling normal damage, Blast man rolls a 6,6,6,5,5,4,4,4,4,3,2,2! A walloping 51 Stun and 15 Body!!
7. The bad bots have a Physical Defense of 6 plus a resistant Physical Defense of 10. Subtracting 16 from 51 nets 35 stun while the rPD nets 5 Body. Since 35 is way over the 16 CON of the ninja-bots, they are all stunned! Worse, they are left with a paltry 5 Stun before their first move!
8. Holy splat-bots Basket Man you just stunned all 9 of the Automaton Assassins!
9. Knowing the robotic ruffians are likely not down for the count, The Meringue Madam winds up her "Clockwork Mayhem", a Drain CON designed to mess up automatons and their ilk...

How do you play Champions Now?
Trentin C Bergeron (trechriron)
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Omega

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2020, 06:22:09 AM »
Sounds alot like a bunch of rules to force free-form on the fly play.

NeonAce

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« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2020, 09:02:11 AM »
Quote from: trechriron;1122488
How do you play Champions Now?

Ultimately, it's just early Champions with some tweaks. There are no necessary "Story Game" rules, unless you consider some rules in early Champions to be such. Some of those tweaks are things like... it's more costly to make a power cost no Endurance, the number of segments on the speed chart has been reduced, the way some attributes are bought and expressed has been changed slightly, the way Stun & Endurance are calculated has been simplified, power frameworks and the cost of powers themselves has been slightly fiddled with.

Most of the "Ron" bits are him geeking out about certain styles of play, or explaining/trying to bring out the stuff he thought was really cool about early Champions. Like, with the Endurance change, he thinks the game is more tactically interesting and the pressure entertainingly amped up when people have to catch their breath and pick their shots and cover for each other, instead of untiring machines blasting each other. A lot of talk kind of going beyond the rules into chatting about how those rules can be used to evoke comic book superhero vibes.

So, it's a slightly tweaked version of early Champions with a lot of commentary by a guy who loved early Champions and is going to passionately tell you all about what he thinks is cool about it and why, and give his advice about how he thinks you can bring some of that grooviness out. If you don't want to hear that, it may not be the Champions for you, but at least there are, like, 6+ other editions to choose from.

ffilz

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2020, 09:58:16 AM »
Quote from: trechriron;1122488
It's funny. When the story gamers talk about RPGs it's like two completely different languages. It's like trying to parse out the language in that Star Trek Next Generation episode. I see the words. I read them. I read them again. I just don't get it.

While some of Ron Edwards text in Champions Now does sound awfully pretentious I also listened to a bunch of podcasts from him on RuneQuest 2. They were very interesting and sounded mostly like normal old school gamer speak. Yea, maybe he referenced a few story gamish things, but he really was playing a pretty old school game, or talking about old school features.

trechriron

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Ron Edward's Champions Now
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2020, 03:37:21 PM »
Fair enough. I may check it out to see for myself.
Trentin C Bergeron (trechriron)
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