At a christmas party, we played Activity!
That felt a lot like some Thematic Games do.

Bizarre, bizarre posts expressing even more bizarre sentiments. For some reason, I am reminded of the immortal worlds of Jeff Freeman:

QuoteI've recently made a rather interesting discovery. It came on the heels of an unusual observation. I'm not sure which to share with you first.

Okay, in order then. The observation it is. Ready?

People don't like to role-play. They aren't the least bit interested in it. They don't want to do it. Not one bit. You can stroll right up to just any stranger, some guy standing around in the mall holding his wife's purse, for example, and ask him.

You say, "Hey there guy, you look like you're not enjoying standing there holding your wife's purse very much. Want to role-play?"

And he says, "Nope."

Naturally, one can never generalize, on account of there being so many weirdoes in the world. I really cannot say truthfully that no one wants to role-play. A person couldn't even say that no one wants to convert their life savings and all the potential they will ever have for a happy and healthy life into crack cocaine, and then smoke it. Some people do it.

But anyway, back to what I was talking about. For another example: you could say, "Hey, no one wants to download pictures of morbidly obese nekkid old people." But you'd be wrong. Some people not only do it, they pay real cash money for the privilege.

Just like some people pay real money for role-playing games, just so they can role-play, which is something that no one wants to do.

I mean apart from the weirdo's out there, you people, no one wants to role-play. Not any of the rest of the population, some of which are smoking crack and looking at pictures of morbidly obese old nekkid people. Not even the guys standing in malls holding their wives' purses and thinking that they'd rather be just about anywhere else doing anything else, until you asked them if they wanted to role-play.

And so on and forth, from way back in 1998. Now how about this?

QuoteChicks in gaming is a hot topic right now. It has been ever since the first generation of role playing gamers were old enough to become interested in chicks. Someone looked around the gaming table and thought, "Man, I wish some chicks would hang out with us." Game publishers also took note, thinking, "Man, I wish twice as many people were buying my games."

Two basic strategies were developed: One, add things chicks like to the games. Two, remove what they don't like.

If they knew what chicks liked, they wouldn't have spent their youths hanging out with a bunch of geeks pretending to be elves. So they had to stick with the remove-what-they-don't-like approach. That's unfortunate, because what chicks don't like about role-playing games are, to be specific, the gamers.

I mean honestly, if hunky Brad, captain of the football team, were playing role playing games, chicks would be interested. Instead, it's not-so-hunky Norman, captain of the chess team. Chicks hate being hit-on by Norman every time they try to play a game, and rest assured, Norman does hit-on them. They call it `sexual harassment', on account of Norman being such a dork.

Norman: "If you're hurt, my Paladin can heal you by laying-hands on--"

Chick: "Don't even think about it, dweeb."

And so it went. The game publishers sought to remove game fans from the role-playing hobby.

And here we are again, with people complaining that to make the hobby fun and accessible, we have to destroy it first, because it is not good enoug. Muh huh. Whatever you say, Ace. And your games? Not new. Consider:

QuoteI decided that it's time to stop whining about what RPG publishers are making and just do it right, the only way to do anything right, myself. I've made The Perfect Game. I call it [Adventure] (note the use of the left-bracket), `the boardless game'.

This is a whole new concept in game playing. Playing [Adventure] will make you smarter and sexier than you have ever been. You'll win the respect and admiration of your peers. You'll make new friends, a better class of people than your old friends. You'll be a winner!

The `boardless game' method of play is quite unlike anything you've ever played before. This is far different from traditional games such as checkers, chess or even Chinese checkers. A boardless game has no game board! All of the action takes place in your mind. You'll explore your own subconscious hopes and fears, overcome childhood phobias and develop a better understanding of your friends and family members. Play [Adventure] and become a better person!

[Adventure] is a game for two or more people, ages 3 and up. Anyone with an imagination can play. If you don't have much of an imagination, don't worry - [Adventure] will help develop what little creativity you currently possess until you too, are an artistic, witty, innovative thinker.

I figure that I can swipe tired, old, out-dated ideas (such as 'character classes', for example), but then pretend to have invented something totally new and revolutionary, and furthermore pretend that simply playing the game will make one into a better human being, and people will positively line-up to buy the game. It's happened before.

Different period, same sentiments. I guess it must be some sort of fucked up cycle.

Slightly more seriously, back in the day (hak kaf wheeze, to quote Old Geezer), we didn't need any personality mechanics to roleplay, and we didn't worry whether it would have to give you a mechanical edge. We did it because we found it enjoyable, and still do. Nothing more, nothing less. And until I read the posts online, I never knew people would do otherwise.

Why do these people sound like they have incredibly broken social contracts? ...which is fodder for my previous thread, probably.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou mean just like your fucking "Storygames" are more like boardgames than RPGs? With their fucking gimmicky mechanics and "rolling to see if you overcome your grief"??

Yeah, thanks for proving my fucking point.

Personally, I've never seen the game.  I've tried to add it to my collection a few times for novelty reasons.  But, from all accounts, it was only tenuously a RPG, and sucked ass.  It was a game which should have been aimed at new players, but instead was aimed squarely at existing players who weren't interested in it in the first place.

As for your point, I'm not sure what the heck it is at the moment.  From my point of view, the whole thing you're railing against is that people outside of gaming are more interested in things other than elves, dwarves, and vanilla Tolkien fantasy.  And since they aren't then they either: a) shouldn't be gaming at all, or b) should be forced to be interested in vanilla Tolkien fantasy rather than maybe having some games which cater to their interests.  Which one are you stating?

Plus, as I understand it, Prime Time Adventures is a game about simulating cop action/adventure shows, or tales about loners with big hair and talking cars.  I'm unaware of its alleged intent to cause all gamers to start playing Ethan Frome adaptations.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe Shab Al-Hiri Roach
Mountain Witch
PTA
Breaking the Ice
Shooting the Moon
My life with Master
Waiting for the Queen/Tea At Midnight
Contenders
It Was A Mutual Decision
Bacchanal

RPGPundit

You know what this list reminds me of?  Cheapass Games products I'd see on the shelves of the gaming stores in the late nineties (and a bit still today). You know the ones... came in little white envelopes and were completely self contained one shotters to play with a few buddies when you were bored.  Could be roleplaying, could just be a game like Clue without the board.

Hell, If I'd had an interest in them I could probably name off a list that would be just like the one I quoted.  Of course, I'd add "kobolds Ate my Baby' to it.

THIS is what the Forge Produces as their 'great paradigm altering uber-widget'?  

Take that, Cheapass Games, with your trendsetting ways!

Quote from: GabrielAs for your point, I'm not sure what the heck it is at the moment.  From my point of view, the whole thing you're railing against is that people outside of gaming are more interested in things other than elves, dwarves, and vanilla Tolkien fantasy.  And since they aren't then they either: a) shouldn't be gaming at all, or b) should be forced to be interested in vanilla Tolkien fantasy rather than maybe having some games which cater to their interests.  Which one are you stating?

Then you're a bit of a thickie, aren't you?

My point, motherfucker, is that normal people ARE interested in elves, sci-fi, superheros, etc., and are not (as the Forgites over at Storygames seem to believe) desperate to get to play a game where they can pretend to be Mr.Belvedere.

My point is that the games the stupid as shit fucks over there are suggesting, and the reasons why they are suggesting them, are utter bullshit nonsense that only someone utterly delusional with no sense of connection to the normal world or willingly lying to themselves and others for ideological reasons would deign to suggest.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditMy point, motherfucker, is that normal people ARE interested in elves, sci-fi, superheros, etc., and are not (as the Forgites over at Storygames seem to believe) desperate to get to play a game where they can pretend to be Mr.Belvedere.

While I disagreed with much of what was said, this isn't a reasonable characterization.  Primetime Adventures describes for itself what it is trying to emulate.   As it puts it: The kinds of shows that best fit Primetime Adventures follow a fairly recent trend in television: the marriage of character drama with action and adventure, not unlike the melodramatic adventure that comic books have been doing for decades. These shows feature a powerful protagonist or protagonists who simultaneously deal with the all-powerful villain of the week and their contrastingly mundane yet important personal lives.   At least in the early draft (the only thing I have access to at the moment), it listed the following shows:

Alias, Angel, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Farscape, Firefly, Six Feet Under, and Star Trek: The Next Generation

So I think that references to Mr. Belvedere and Golden Girls are misplaced, since that isn't what PtA is trying for.

I have no words. Really. I can't even work up vehemence on that kind of thinking anymore--because its so funny.

Can anyone explain to me, why Forge gamers have a seemingly desperate need to belong, to fit, to be "mainstream" ?

Sadly I had hopes for Story-Games, hopes since Andy K is often a far more reasonable a chap, it wouldn't become Forge 2: The Sequal, with more wankery and self-flagellation.

Quote from: RPGPunditMy point is that the games the stupid as shit fucks over there are suggesting, and the reasons why they are suggesting them, are utter bullshit nonsense that only someone utterly delusional with no sense of connection to the normal world or willingly lying to themselves and others for ideological reasons would deign to suggest.

That someone might identify more with and therefore be more likely to be enthusiastic about playing X-Files or a cop drama rather than play D&D?

1) The mainstream doesn't want to be gamers.  There are other avenues of entertainment out there which supply the enjoyment of gaming with fewer barriers.  The mainstream will always go to those entertainment forms over traditional RPGs.  No D&D game or Forge game will EVER change that.

2) That said, there are some people out there who would be gamers, but aren't.

3) As you are fond of noting, RPGs are represented by D&D.  What this also means is that people who are not gamers (but may be interested in being gamers) see RPGs as a homogenous mass of Tolkienesque fantasy.  If that genre doesn't interest them, they skip RPGs as a whole because they don't see the hobby as offerring them anything they might like.  It's a catch 22.  There will never be any other dominant genre in gaming other than Tolkienesque fantasy because gaming as a whole alienates those interested in other things.

4) Regardless of financial success, there are people out there who like Cowboys and Indians and like playing Boot Hill.

As far as I'm concerned, what we're talking about here is how to get that Western fan who might like RPGs, but has already told me that he thinks Lord of the Rings is gay, into the fold.  D&D is the worst choice for that gamer.  It's better to offer a game with Western archetypes he can latch hold of and enjoy.

Quote from: SilverlionI have no words. Really. I can't even work up vehemence on that kind of thinking anymore--because its so funny.

Can anyone explain to me, why Forge gamers have a seemingly desperate need to belong, to fit, to be "mainstream" ?

Sadly I had hopes for Story-Games, hopes since Andy K is often a far more reasonable a chap, it wouldn't become Forge 2: The Sequal, with more wankery and self-flagellation.

If anything, it seems more wankery-filled and pretentious.  I usually don't read it, because at least nominally they have titled themselves something that indicates that they recognize that the games they play aren't RPGs, and are different from RPGs, and thus it becomes their own business.

what they say in there doesn't follow up with that though: its the same-old same-old, talking about how to subvert RPGs, and saying all the stuff they claim that they don't believe or "aren't about" or would never say in a more mainstream rpg forum.

RPGPundit

QuoteThe mainstream doesn't want to be gamers.  

Did you know that there isn´t even a german word for the thing you are meaning when you say "Gamer"?

Really, at least here, I´m just a guy. A guy who likes to play games most other people don´t know or care about.
I get the growing impression this is quite a blessing.

Quote from: GabrielThat someone might identify more with and therefore be more likely to be enthusiastic about playing X-Files or a cop drama rather than play D&D?

1) The mainstream doesn't want to be gamers.  There are other avenues of entertainment out there which supply the enjoyment of gaming with fewer barriers.  The mainstream will always go to those entertainment forms over traditional RPGs.  No D&D game or Forge game will EVER change that.

2) That said, there are some people out there who would be gamers, but aren't.

3) As you are fond of noting, RPGs are represented by D&D.  What this also means is that people who are not gamers (but may be interested in being gamers) see RPGs as a homogenous mass of Tolkienesque fantasy.  If that genre doesn't interest them, they skip RPGs as a whole because they don't see the hobby as offerring them anything they might like.  It's a catch 22.  There will never be any other dominant genre in gaming other than Tolkienesque fantasy because gaming as a whole alienates those interested in other things.

4) Regardless of financial success, there are people out there who like Cowboys and Indians and like playing Boot Hill.

As far as I'm concerned, what we're talking about here is how to get that Western fan who might like RPGs, but has already told me that he thinks Lord of the Rings is gay, into the fold.  D&D is the worst choice for that gamer.  It's better to offer a game with Western archetypes he can latch hold of and enjoy.

Sure, and that's why you show him Boot Hill, or GURPS Western, or Deadlands, or Spellslinger or (possibly, I haven't read it yet) Coyote Trail.

You don't, however, claim that what normal people really want is "My Dinner with Andre, the RPG", and try to sell them that RPGs are really all about that sort of utter shit.

RPGPundit

Gabriel & JHKim have said pretty much what I'd say.

Funny thing is, speaking strictly personally, of these

QuoteAlias, Angel, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Farscape, Firefly, Six Feet Under, and Star Trek: The Next Generation

there's not a one I've seen more than a handful of episodes (ST:TNG is the only one I've seen >1 episode), and the genre pretty much leaves me cold. Closest thing I actually watch is Smallville, but I doubt I'd keep up if my wife didn't enjoy the show.

Also (again speaking personally) the writing on ST:TNG (which appears to have spawned the geek-opera genre) always struck me as a sort of backwash from roleplaying games. So it's funny to see that it's been distilled and bottled in game form.

Still, I haven't tried PTA, so I can't judge how the game actually plays.

Quote from: SettembriniDid you know that there isn´t even a german word for the thing you are meaning when you say "Gamer"?

That's true of Finnish, as well: apart from the rather formal peliharrastaja ("game hobbyist") which crops up infrequently in various articles, the word pelaaja covers all players, regardless of whether the game in question is chess or D&D or baseball.

(Also, our language has no distinct word for "geek". The closest equivalent is nörtti for "nerd".)

Quote from: GrimGentThat's true of Finnish, as well: apart from the rather formal peliharrastaja ("game hobbyist") which crops up infrequently in various articles, the word pelaaja covers all players, regardless of whether the game in question is chess or D&D or baseball.

(Also, our language has no distinct word for "geek". The closest equivalent is nörtti for "nerd".)

At the last session of our Amber campaign, we were chatting before the start when one of the players surprised me when she was talking about how she didn't understand some of her friends because she said "I'm not a gamer."  I was confused and asked, and she replied "No, I meant I don't play computer games."  

I think to the general public, "gamer" may well be used to mean computer game player or boardgame player more often than RPG player.