This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Project Black Flag Playtests  (Read 3351 times)

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5559
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Project Black Flag Playtests
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2023, 01:47:07 PM »
So points of coincidence/simmilarity?

As in the more alike X is to Y the more risk?

We've been talking about that without using an obscure term: "It's not enough to change the name, you need to change the description/art/mechanics to make it truly unique."

That's a little too strict.  It's more that if you keep X, you might want to change Y, or vice versa.  The whole thing adds up.  If the thing has A, B, C, D, E, F, G, then changing the name/description probably isn't enough (depending on what all those items are), but changing the name of A, how B works, dropping E out entirely in favor of H, and using your own words--you are well on your way, maybe there already.

Got it. Thanks.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5559
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Project Black Flag Playtests
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2023, 01:50:44 PM »
The lead designer of project Black Flag:

Quote
Celeste Conowitch, our Senior Game Designer, is the lead on game design for this new fantasy RPG.

Who is She?

Let's go to the horses mouth:
Quote
https://celesteconowitch.com/game-design/

Celeste Conowitch
Game Designer, Performer, Producer

"Celeste is the Producer, Editor, and Dungeon Master of Venture Maidens, a femme-forged D&D actual-play podcast set in the homebrew world of The Planes."

Gotta say, I'm not filled with confidence here...

Was there any doubt it was going to be woke?

The interesting thing is this:

It's a totally not 5e clone

Presumably published under ORC or some other custom license

What's WotC going to do about it?

How Open is the license they are going to use?

Are there ANY cool mechanics or innovations?

That's the stuff I'm really curious about.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Chris24601

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 2768
Re: Project Black Flag Playtests
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2023, 02:13:23 PM »
I'll ask again: What is that?
Again? This is the first time I've even seen you ask about it and I've explained it more than once in other threads on the same topic, but here goes again.

A "Concept Stack" is shorthand (borrowed from Scott Adam's Talent Stack concept) for a specific collection of concepts that individually would not be copyrightable, but the specific "stack" of them would be copyrightable.

I previously gave an example of the D&D cleric. Each of these elements isn't copyrightable on its own, but taken as a whole stack becomes a specific copyrightable thing;

- wandering priest
- in a fantasy setting
- casts spells using level based slots
- that are prepared daily
- from a specific list
- also turns/destroys undead
- wears heavy armor
- has limited weapon selection

Using a Concept Stack in its entirety is a recipe for copyright infringement. The more you either alter or break up the stack the less chance of running afoul of WotC's copyright of their cleric class becomes.

In this case too, the less valuable Hasbro sees the D&D property as, the less they will care about pursuing copyright infringement and the closer to D&D's Concept Stack for things you can get without having issues. If D&D becomes a full-fledged lifestyle brand then they're going to protect it heavily by going after any close imitator. If D&D fails as a lifestyle brand and is only valuable as a niche hobby IP then closer imitators aren't worth the effort of pursuing and only direct threats to their specific IP are likely to be pursued.

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5559
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Project Black Flag Playtests
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2023, 03:03:13 PM »
I'll ask again: What is that?
Again? This is the first time I've even seen you ask about it and I've explained it more than once in other threads on the same topic, but here goes again.

A "Concept Stack" is shorthand (borrowed from Scott Adam's Talent Stack concept) for a specific collection of concepts that individually would not be copyrightable, but the specific "stack" of them would be copyrightable.

I previously gave an example of the D&D cleric. Each of these elements isn't copyrightable on its own, but taken as a whole stack becomes a specific copyrightable thing;

- wandering priest
- in a fantasy setting
- casts spells using level based slots
- that are prepared daily
- from a specific list
- also turns/destroys undead
- wears heavy armor
- has limited weapon selection

Using a Concept Stack in its entirety is a recipe for copyright infringement. The more you either alter or break up the stack the less chance of running afoul of WotC's copyright of their cleric class becomes.

In this case too, the less valuable Hasbro sees the D&D property as, the less they will care about pursuing copyright infringement and the closer to D&D's Concept Stack for things you can get without having issues. If D&D becomes a full-fledged lifestyle brand then they're going to protect it heavily by going after any close imitator. If D&D fails as a lifestyle brand and is only valuable as a niche hobby IP then closer imitators aren't worth the effort of pursuing and only direct threats to their specific IP are likely to be pursued.

Yes, I've asked in 2-4 posts where you mentioned the term.

I must have missed your explanation of it.

Thanks for the explanation.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Effete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 511
Re: Project Black Flag Playtests
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2023, 05:24:19 PM »
In this case too, the less valuable Hasbro sees the D&D property as, the less they will care about pursuing copyright infringement and the closer to D&D's Concept Stack for things you can get without having issues. If D&D becomes a full-fledged lifestyle brand then they're going to protect it heavily by going after any close imitator. If D&D fails as a lifestyle brand and is only valuable as a niche hobby IP then closer imitators aren't worth the effort of pursuing and only direct threats to their specific IP are likely to be pursued.

You don't need to wait for their brand to fail. You just need enough people/products to simultaneously co-opt terms and descriptions to force them into the public domain. This is what happened with kleenex, elevator, kevlar, nylon, etc. Most people probably don't even know these are trademarks. Some off-brand company can market their "nylon rope" in Big Lots and BDG Media, Inc. can go suck eggs.

Spinachcat

  • Toxic SocioCat
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 14641
Re: Project Black Flag Playtests
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2023, 06:39:37 PM »
I think they are a bunch of greedy bastards and will try to nuke anyone they think they can, smaller fish is better from a certain PoV, they will fold for lack of funds to fight.

If they go the Lawfare route, they'll emulate TSR. They will fire off cease & desist letters, followed by scary obey-or-die letters, and only then file lawsuits against the last remnant. Back in the TSR days, most "offenders" folded after the first C&D.

C&Ds and the scary letters are boilerplates that can be sent out by secretaries with a photocopy of the Lead Attorney's signature because they carry zero legal weight. That's far cheaper for WotC and clears out 90% of their targets.

Spinachcat

  • Toxic SocioCat
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 14641
Re: Project Black Flag Playtests
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2023, 06:49:37 PM »
You won't get all of the existing user base, but there needs to be a concerted effort to just stop playing and buying 5e content.

I'm sure after 24 years, WotC has the data on what percentage of customers drop off per edition change and already calculated that into their 6e plans.

Also, I don't think most 5e players know about or care about the OGL kerfluffle. For most gamers, they only play the current edition of D&D, whatever that may be.


Spinachcat

  • Toxic SocioCat
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 14641
Re: Project Black Flag Playtests
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2023, 07:00:24 PM »
We've been talking about that without using an obscure term: "It's not enough to change the name, you need to change the description/art/mechanics to make it truly unique."

Geeky, read up on Fair Use laws in the USA. You'l find it very interesting and useful.

If WotC really had the power to go after anyone who published a Not-D&D game with D&D-ish contents, TSR  would have chased down Palladium, Chaosium, Games Workshop (Warhammer) and most importantly, Origins (Ultima), Wizardry and Blizzard (Warcraft) back in the 80s and 90s.

Spinachcat

  • Toxic SocioCat
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 14641
Re: Project Black Flag Playtests
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2023, 07:05:03 PM »
I suspect their movie inevitably bombing (which has nothing to do with the OGL mess; it has “failure” written all over it for entirely separate reasons) will have the biggest impact on Hasbro’s plans.

Why do you think it's in an inevitable bomb? It's LotR + MCU with just enough wokeness to appease Twatter. If it opens away from any other fantasy or supers movie, why would it do any worse than break even?

Why wouldn't it have a long tail on streaming? People watch loads of crap.

I'm not the audience for the movie, but am I missing something?

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5559
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Project Black Flag Playtests
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2023, 08:07:23 PM »
We've been talking about that without using an obscure term: "It's not enough to change the name, you need to change the description/art/mechanics to make it truly unique."

Geeky, read up on Fair Use laws in the USA. You'l find it very interesting and useful.

If WotC really had the power to go after anyone who published a Not-D&D game with D&D-ish contents, TSR  would have chased down Palladium, Chaosium, Games Workshop (Warhammer) and most importantly, Origins (Ultima), Wizardry and Blizzard (Warcraft) back in the 80s and 90s.

Remind me, why was TSR known as "They Sue Regularly"?

The law doesn't matter if you don't have the money to fight.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5559
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Project Black Flag Playtests
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2023, 08:09:56 PM »
I suspect their movie inevitably bombing (which has nothing to do with the OGL mess; it has “failure” written all over it for entirely separate reasons) will have the biggest impact on Hasbro’s plans.

Why do you think it's in an inevitable bomb? It's LotR + MCU with just enough wokeness to appease Twatter. If it opens away from any other fantasy or supers movie, why would it do any worse than break even?

Why wouldn't it have a long tail on streaming? People watch loads of crap.

I'm not the audience for the movie, but am I missing something?

I'm not saying it will bomb or not, but:

I've seen enough woke twitterati tweeting about boycotting the movie and the show to think it might.

But this of course doesn't mean the wider audience is onboard with such boycott, even if The Washington compost picked up the controversy, and made a fairly-ish good article about it.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Chris24601

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 2768
Re: Project Black Flag Playtests
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2023, 08:11:02 PM »
I suspect their movie inevitably bombing (which has nothing to do with the OGL mess; it has “failure” written all over it for entirely separate reasons) will have the biggest impact on Hasbro’s plans.

Why do you think it's in an inevitable bomb? It's LotR + MCU with just enough wokeness to appease Twatter. If it opens away from any other fantasy or supers movie, why would it do any worse than break even?

Why wouldn't it have a long tail on streaming? People watch loads of crap.

I'm not the audience for the movie, but am I missing something?
Well, first of all... MCU Fatigue. Post Endgame the magic is gone and interest in Marvel-like films just isn't what it used to be. D&D:HAT looks just like another Marvel movie except there's not even recognizable characters involved.

Second, it stars Chris Pine, the least bankable Chris in Hollywood who hasn't headlined a profitable film since the first Wonder Woman in 2017 and plays exactly one character; Chris Pine; in every film he's in. That little dancing skip in the trailer he makes pretty says how seriously we're supposed to take his character, who will inevitably be a chauvinistic butt-monkey until one of the strong women ends up saving the day and he learns some sort of lesson about respecting the power of women. Once you've seen that story once, you don't need to see it again.

Third, it was written and directed by Jonathan Goldstein and John Francis Daley... writers and directors of such hits as "Game Night" and "Vacation Friends" and was one of the many fired for creative differences teams that directed the upcoming "Flash" movie at some point during its development hell.

Fourth, the Woke don't actually put their money where their mouths are. If they did woke garbage wouldn't keep failing in theaters. This think looking like 21st Century Seattle values pretending to be Medieval fantasy isn't going to make the woke spend money on this.

Fifth, look around at the economy. People will shell out big bucks for something pro-America and good storytelling like last year's Top Gun: Maverick. They're not going to shell out movie theatre money for another off-brand Marvel movie.

Finally, its a Paramount release so its not going to be turning up on HBOMax, Amazon or Netflix. It'll be streaming on Paramount+; where Star Trek went to die.

Its basically a Jenga tower of failure.

Quasquetonian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Q
  • Posts: 8
Re: Project Black Flag Playtests
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2023, 08:40:51 PM »
Well, first of all... MCU Fatigue. Post Endgame the magic is gone and interest in Marvel-like films just isn't what it used to be. D&D:HAT looks just like another Marvel movie except there's not even recognizable characters involved.

Second, it stars Chris Pine, the least bankable Chris in Hollywood who hasn't headlined a profitable film since the first Wonder Woman in 2017 and plays exactly one character; Chris Pine; in every film he's in. That little dancing skip in the trailer he makes pretty says how seriously we're supposed to take his character, who will inevitably be a chauvinistic butt-monkey until one of the strong women ends up saving the day and he learns some sort of lesson about respecting the power of women. Once you've seen that story once, you don't need to see it again.

Third, it was written and directed by Jonathan Goldstein and John Francis Daley... writers and directors of such hits as "Game Night" and "Vacation Friends" and was one of the many fired for creative differences teams that directed the upcoming "Flash" movie at some point during its development hell.

Fourth, the Woke don't actually put their money where their mouths are. If they did woke garbage wouldn't keep failing in theaters. This think looking like 21st Century Seattle values pretending to be Medieval fantasy isn't going to make the woke spend money on this.

Fifth, look around at the economy. People will shell out big bucks for something pro-America and good storytelling like last year's Top Gun: Maverick. They're not going to shell out movie theatre money for another off-brand Marvel movie.

Finally, its a Paramount release so its not going to be turning up on HBOMax, Amazon or Netflix. It'll be streaming on Paramount+; where Star Trek went to die.

Its basically a Jenga tower of failure.

One more thing going against it is that it's a fantasy movie.  Due to the success of Game of Thrones and D&D, there's this belief that fantasy projects are bankable, but fantasy has a long history of underperforming or flopping outright.

Spinachcat

  • Toxic SocioCat
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 14641
Re: Project Black Flag Playtests
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2023, 08:51:18 PM »
Remind me, why was TSR known as "They Sue Regularly"?

Mostly because gamers think a C&D is a lawsuit.

It's easy to scare people into obedience with legal-ish language.

For instance, "mask mandates" aren't laws, but that didn't matter to the obedient and the enforcers.

The law doesn't matter if you don't have the money to fight.

As a veteran of many legal actions, "The Law" is whatever the judge feels the law might be today, often depending on what the judge had for breakfast. 


jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10487
Re: Project Black Flag Playtests
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2023, 01:09:48 AM »
I suspect their movie inevitably bombing (which has nothing to do with the OGL mess; it has “failure” written all over it for entirely separate reasons) will have the biggest impact on Hasbro’s plans.
Well, first of all... MCU Fatigue. Post Endgame the magic is gone and interest in Marvel-like films just isn't what it used to be. D&D:HAT looks just like another Marvel movie except there's not even recognizable characters involved.
Fourth, the Woke don't actually put their money where their mouths are. If they did woke garbage wouldn't keep failing in theaters. This think looking like 21st Century Seattle values pretending to be Medieval fantasy isn't going to make the woke spend money on this.

Fifth, look around at the economy. People will shell out big bucks for something pro-America and good storytelling like last year's Top Gun: Maverick. They're not going to shell out movie theatre money for another off-brand Marvel movie.

I think this is exaggerating trends. The D&D movie doesn't have to be the top movie of the year to be a success. I'd agree there is MCU fatigue in the sense that they've been less successful. However, that's coming down from an unprecedented success rate. In the 2022 domestic box office, MCU movies were still #2 and #3 of the top five. Here they are:

#1.  Top Gun: Maverick -> $718M
#2.  Black Panther: Wakanda Forever -> $436M
#3.  Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness -> $411M
#4.  Avatar: The Way of Water -> $401M
#5.  Jurassic World: Dominion -> $376M

Note that Avatar: The Way of Water is only #4 because it came out just before the new year. It has gone on to make $578M domestically and is currently still the top movie in the U.S.

I think there's clearly still a big market for CGI sci-fi/fantasy action movies.