Quote from: Exploderwizard;596930I find the opposite to be true most of the time. Players who don't think rules first often come up with some of the coolest stuff because their ideas don't get edited by rules filters first.

This. Absolutely this.

I like RPGs because they are primarily a social gathering for me, so having Players who are not familiar with the rules is fine as long as they are engaging with the game world itself.

This hasn't really been an issue for me over the last few years. Back during the D20 boom we had some minor trouble with True20, just because of the wound track, and we eventually left it behind because of it. these days, I tend to use games like ICONS, which you pretty much know in and out by the end of the second session whether you want to or not, or games like B/X D&D, which my guys more or less know due to starting out with TSR D&D.

In all the groups I've been in over the years there has always been an unspoken assumption that if you're running any form of D&D then the players are expected to know the rules and be able to make their own characters.  If you are running anything else then all rules-y stuff is assumed to be entirely handled by the GM.  

The attitude is like, "If you're going to go out of your way to run something that's not D&D, then -you- have do everything to facilitate it, because you -could- have just run D&D."

I have no problem with it, but then, I game with friends of 20-30+ years.

One is an RN in a children's care center that deals with terminally ill children and extremely mentally-challeged "children" (like an 19-year old that needs his diapers changed).

She looks at gaming as a relief, and says that since her mind focusses on all of the stuff from work, plus her family of husband (one of our other gamers) and 5 kids, she doesn't have room in her brain for rules.

She just likes to have fun...


And we play HERO System.

It depends on the game. I only play rules light games with people who aren't willing to learn the rules.

As long as they show up, have fun, and get along with everyone, I'm happy. It can get a bit annoying if they don't know at least the basics of what they can do, though.

When I'm the GM, I very much expect my players to know/learn the basics of their own characters and how they function.  I do NOT expect ( or want ) them to be 'rule lawyers'.  I just want them to understand what they need to roll when I say 'make a saving throw vs poison' for example.

 I've played with someone once who needed a tutorial on how to make a simple attack roll in D&D almost every damn round!  Every time it was her turn she would just give me a blank stare and expect everyone else to walk her through the process for the 100th time and it was very frustrating.  She really liked the game too, but she couldn't grasp ANYTHING related to the mechanics of it.

I have no patience for people that can't master the small subset of rules that they need to play their character, and I routinely cull them from groups.  I am so grateful that most of these people are now pulled out of the tabletop world in favor of consoles and PC games, or something else entirely, so those that do slip through the filters are easily dealt with; some version of "I am not a fucking computer; I cannot, and will not, do your jobs for you- and your jobs include acquiring a passing familiarity with how your character fucking works.  Get up to speed or get the fuck out."

Quote from: Spinal Tarp;597091I've played with someone once who needed a tutorial on how to make a simple attack roll in D&D almost every damn round!  Every time it was her turn she would just give me a blank stare and expect everyone else to walk her through the process for the 100th time and it was very frustrating.  She really liked the game too, but she couldn't grasp ANYTHING related to the mechanics of it.

This is different from not learning the majority of the rules. This is the difference between having a functioning human brain and being a houseplant.

Quote from: RPGPundit;596871What do you feel about having players like that at your table? Guys who might play for years but don't bother to learn even the very basics of the system they're playing.  They MIGHT bother to understand their own most-frequently used number (what their "To-hit bonus" is, for example), or they might not.  But they know nothing of any further mechanics, and don't seem to want to.

Is that ok to you?

RPGPundit

It is not.

(grinds teeth)

The starting point is I don't expect players to know the rules of a tabletop game. That's the GM's job.

But players ought to understand their own character at least in terms of fluff and flavour, so they ought to have some basic concept of how strong, fast, agile, healthy, charming and magical their character is, and if their character has magical abilities, they're going to need to know roughly what those abilities are supposed to be able to do (again, in fluff and flavour terms).

If they don't understand the fluff and flavour, there's going to be a risk of frustrated expectations on their part.

I mean, if you're playing a 2nd level magic user whose spells are Sleep, Magic Missile, Shield, Charm Person, Detect Magic and Read Magic, it's going to be annoying for everyone if you keep asking the GM if you can summon a vampire or magically transform into a cyborg. But you don't need to know that Magic Missile is an autohit with no save doing d4+1 damage per missile and at 2nd level you get 1 magic missile when you cast it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;596871Is that ok to you?

Sure, why not?

I've got a player who professes "not to understand the rules" but he really does, and another who understands some of the rules but not everything. Both contribute to the game and the setting.

If someone didn't know what dice to roll or what certain stats meant then it would be a bit harder, but I'd just ask what they are doing and help them roll what they needed.

Of course, which system is being played helps a lot. We play using RuneQuest or HeroQuest, so the rules mechanisms are quite simple and easy to pick up and I know enough about the more complex rules to handle most queries.

For games with more complex rules then I could see it as being a problem.

Quote from: RPGPundit;596871What do you feel about having players like that at your table? Guys who might play for years but don't bother to learn even the very basics of the system they're playing.  They MIGHT bother to understand their own most-frequently used number (what their "To-hit bonus" is, for example), or they might not.  But they know nothing of any further mechanics, and don't seem to want to.

Is that ok to you?

RPGPundit

OH HELL NO!

Playing an RPG with players who don't know the rules is kind of like having sex with a minor.  Even if they say "yes," you don't really have informed consent.

Players who know the rules are playing a game.

Players who don't know the rules are telling a story, and I hear the Pundit disapproves of such things.

I'm getting an amusing mental image of the "ideal" session for these "no rules knowledge" guys...

DM:  Okay, let's get started.  Remember, I don't care if you're unfamiliar with the rules.  I just want you to play your character how you think they should be played.  So, you approach a cave, and you see an ogre standing in front of the entrance, possibly as a guard.  What do you do?

Bob the Wizard:  I cast Fireball at it.

DM:  You can't cast Fireball, you're only a third level Wizard.

Bob the Wizard:  Yeah... and it's a third level spell.

DM:  It doesn't work like that.  Let me see what spells you have memorized.

Bob the Wizard:  Memorized?

DM:  Yeah... you have to memorize your spells every morning.  What do you have in your spellbook?

Bob the Wizard:  I... have the Player's Handbook.

DM:  No, your character's spellbook.

Bob the Wizard:  I need to buy another fucking book just to play a Wizard?

DM:  Umm...  We'll get back to you.  Jim, what are you doing?

Jim the Ninja:  I decapitate the ogre.

DM:  So...  You're attacking it?

Jim the Ninja:  Yeah, specifically, I'm attacking it's neck with my katana and cutting it's head off.  So, do you have to roll for how many feet of arterial spray come out of an ogre?

DM:  You're unlikely to kill it in one shot.  Are you sneaking up on it?

Jim the Ninja:  Duh.  I'm a ninja.  I'm always sneaking.

DM:  Roll for Hide/Move Silently.

Jim the Ninja:  *rolls a random die*  I rolled "ninja," which beats your roll of "not-ninja."

DM:  Let me see your character sheet...  *sigh*  You don't have anything written on your character sheet except "Sneaky:  +Ninja" and "Decapitation:  +Infinity."

Jim the Ninja:  If, in the course of your travels, you meet God.  God will be cut.

DM:  You don't get points for quoting Kill Bill.

Jim the Ninja:  You don't get points for being a virgin with Asperger's and a stack of books telling you how to fuck an elf.  Protip:  In the butt.

DM:  Sue, did you want to do anything?

Sue the ?:  Thirteen.

DM:  Uh...  Thirteen what?

Sue the ?:  I...  I don't know.  My boyfriend made a character for me.  Her name is Cindy.

DM:  What class is Cindy?

Sue the ?:  Middle?

DM:  No...  what character class?

Sue the ?:  *looks blankly at character sheet*  Is...  Is that on here somewhere?

DM:  What do you see your character as being?

Sue the ?:  A cook.

Jim the Ninja:  Well, you're gonna have to dig through the DM's book, "Cooking: the Virgining."  Look, asshole, you said do what your character would do, so Bob fireballed the ogre onto it's ass, I cut it's head off, and Sue is cooking it.  Except for the cock...  I'm cutting off the cock and wearing it as a hat.

DM:  I'm the DM!  You don't get to tell me what happens!

Jim the Ninja:  Yeah... you see Altar Boy on my character sheet?  No?  That's because I didn't sign up to get fucked by a dude pretending to be God.  By the way, *belches and blows in DM's face* that's what pussy smells like, gym sock fucker.  I'm outta here.

Sue the ?:  I'm... going home now...

Bob the Wizard:  *sigh*  Okay, what's this fucking book I need to buy to be a Wizard?  Is it still in print, or do I need to hit E-Bay?

Quote from: Arturick;597152OH HELL NO!
I'm getting an amusing mental image of the "ideal" session for these "no rules knowledge" guys...

I've been playing with people who do not read/know RPG rules for 35+ years and I've never had any session go anything like your imaginary session. Not even the very first time someone plays an RPG.