What do you feel about having players like that at your table? Guys who might play for years but don't bother to learn even the very basics of the system they're playing.  They MIGHT bother to understand their own most-frequently used number (what their "To-hit bonus" is, for example), or they might not.  But they know nothing of any further mechanics, and don't seem to want to.

Is that ok to you?

RPGPundit

That is a treasured and valuable player who's definition of "fun" is fairly close to mine.

I'd much rather they were engaging the game world than worrying about the rules.

Most of the best players I've had over the years have been like that, because they tend to think of things in real-world terms and depend on me (or one of the other players) to convert to rules-ese, which is a more copacetic approach to the way I like to run my games than obsessing over builds and crunching numbers and mini-maxing. I don't want the players to think about things in terms of the rules, and if they don't even know them they're much less likely to do so

(But, OTOH, it is kind of annoying when someone's been playing in your group for, like, 6 months and still has to be told every damn time which dice to roll for his attack and which dice to roll for damage, and is seemingly completely incapable of telling the difference between a d8 and a d10...)

Quote from: Black Vulmea;596879I'd much rather they were engaging the game world than worrying about the rules.

Quote from: T. Foster;596881Most of the best players I've had over the years have been like that, because they tend to think of things in real-world terms and depend on me (or one of the other players) to convert to rules-ese, which is a more copacetic approach to the way I like to run my games than obsessing over builds and crunching numbers and mini-maxing. I don't want the players to think about things in terms of the rules, and if they don't even know them they're much less likely to do so

Well that's pretty much what I was going to say.

I'm just going to add that players like this, who don't bother about the rules and think more in the game world's terms, should be actually welcome by role playing games, because I don't think they are that uncommon. It matters in particular if we are talking about people interested in the idea of role playing games trying them out for the first few times, and not really wanting to get bogged down in the minutia of the rules.

These people should be able to play the game. If they aren't, we're doing a disservice to the hobby to turn it more and more into that incestuous "gamer with gamer" closed circle with rules that get more and more complicated and a basic attitude of looking down on casual players. That's a very, very bad idea to give into that, if you ask me.

I don't expect players to read and study the rules. I never have. When I started playing D&D in 1975 most players did not own copies of the rules nor were they expected to know them. All they had to be able to do was say what their character was doing in the game world, roll whatever dice the DM called for, read off the results and track their HP, spells (if any) and items.

This is still about all I require from players. I give nicely printed and bound copies of Microlite74 to players in my Sunday game. Some read them, some don't. Everyone has a good time.

I don't really like RPGs with rules so complex and/or detailed that that players are almost required to own, read, and even study them to be about to contribute to the game. I have little use for rules that reward "system mastery" in players. A player who knows the rules backward and forward really should not have much of an advantage over a player who has never read the rules and just says what his character is trying to do in the game world.

Quote from: RandallS;596884I don't expect players to read and study the rules. I never have. When I started playing D&D in 1975 most players did not own copies of the rules nor were they expected to know them. All they had to be able to do was say what their character was doing in the game world, roll whatever dice the DM called for, read off the results and track their HP, spells (if any) and items.

This is still about all I require from players. I give nicely printed and bound copies of Microlite74 to players in my Sunday game. Some read them, some don't. Everyone has a good time.

I don't really like RPGs with rules so complex and/or detailed that that players are almost required to own, read, and even study them to be about to contribute to the game. I have little use for rules that reward "system mastery" in players. A player who knows the rules backward and forward really should not have much of an advantage over a player who has never read the rules and just says what his character is trying to do in the game world.

Exactly. Its a roleplaying game. As long as the GM handles the rules the players shouldn't have to bother much with them.



Que adversarial SA fuckwit in .....3......2....1..........

If they're not interested in rules and yet they keep coming to play, it means they like either the setting or the atmosphere and so help the game in other ways. Some of my favorite players have been like that.

If they are not slowing down play, i am totally cool with it. If it grinds play to a halt, it bothers me.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;596891If they are not slowing down play, i am totally cool with it. If it grinds play to a halt, it bothers me.

Pretty much this.  It's only a problem when they stop play every time it's their turn to attack because they can't figure out how THAC0 works.  For the first few session it's no problem because they are learning.  But if you've been playing for a year and have made no desire to figure out how it works?  It becomes an issue for everyone else when combat suddenly comes to a halt.

I don't mind at all if players are unfamiliar with the rules.


When players are familar with the rules, it can be good or bad.



Bad when they metagame and use rules knowledge in a manner detrimental to the fun of the game.

Good when the player uses their rules knowledge responsibly.

I dont have an issue with this since i shifted to games where its easier to ignore the rules and get down to gaming instead of needing to do math every damn round just to be able to open a door(i think we can all think of a couple of games that seem to go this route), in fact my old(and probably best remembered) gm barely knew the rules himself and just weaved these awesome tales of adventure between himself and the players asking for a die roll every now and then when somethign felt like it needed abit of numerical value tacked on (often we'd go weeks without a single roll).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;596891If they are not slowing down play, i am totally cool with it. If it grinds play to a halt, it bothers me.

I think this factor is a great measure for rpg rules complexity. Can people with zero rules knowledge actually participate without slowing things to a crawl?  For games that I enjoy the most the answer is yes.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;596891If they are not slowing down play, i am totally cool with it. If it grinds play to a halt, it bothers me.

Same for me. They should also be able to "look it up" if necessary.

I also agree woth BedrockBrendan. I don't care how much or how little effort someone wants to put into learning the mechanics as long as their lack of knowledge does not create an inconvenience or imposition on the GM or the other players.