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What the tin says, I'm working on the psionics for my games.

Since I can't leave well enough alone, the list is now 20 entries long.
Now I need to finish the mechanics (already started) and divide them into levels, what do you guys think?

Which discipline goes in which level?

Psionic Disciplines:

Biokinesis — The power of mind over body, of manipulating living systems, making cells grow or die increasing or decreasing functions. For example of curing yourself or others, falling into a death like trance, walking on burning coals/broken glass without suffering harm by increasing your skin toughness/resistance.
Cryokinesis — The ability to create/control ice, snow, using one's mind
Ego Projection — The ability to voluntarily project a mental body, during which time the consciousness leaves the body.
Empath — ability to apprehend/control the emotional state of another individual
Ergokinesis — The ability to influence the movement of energy, such as electricity, without direct interaction.
Mind Control — The user can control the minds of others, including their thoughts, perceptions, memories, emotions and personality. Depending on the user's skill and power, this can range from a trance-like state very similar to hypnosis, to the target being completely subject to the user's control. A skilled user may be able to control the minds of multiple people simultaneously. The target(s) can be placed in a semi-conscious state, where they may have no recollection of any actions that they perform while under the user's control.
Mnemokinesis — User can control memories of oneself and others, allowing them to modify, fabricate, suppress, influence, repair, restore, erase, detect, and view them.
Precognition — The ability to perceive future events
Psionic Shield — The user is highly resistant to any/all mental intrusion, including psychic or empathic powers, Hypnosis, Mental Hallucination, deception, etc. Mind readers only "hear" static, while mind controllers will have trouble manipulating those shielded.
Psychocompetence — The ability to gain skills by touching someone with said ability.
Psychometry — The ability to obtain information about a person or an object by touch.
Psychoprojection — The ability to project images.
Pyrokinesis — The ability to create/control flames, fire, using one's mind
Retrocognition — The ability to supernaturally perceive past events.
Telecognition — The ability to perceive distant or unseen events
Telekinesis — The ability to exert force, control objects and move matter with one's mind
Telepathy — The ability to transmit or receive thoughts
Telesthesia — The ability to see/hear/feel/smell a distant or unseen target using extrasensory perception.
Thermokinesis — The ability to control both heat and cold, using one's mind.
Xenoglossy — The ability to learn to write and speak a foreign language by touching a living individual that speaks/writes it.

You've got significant overlap, like the thermo-, cryo-, and pyro- kinesis; tele- thesia and cognition; or ego and psycho- projection. Are you intending these to be separate powers, power trees, or something else? They don't seem to be defined enough to order them by power. Some also are very difficult to implement in a game, like precognition. Others can break games where secrets are important, like psychometry.

Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 08:41:31 PM
You've got significant overlap, like the thermo-, cryo-, and pyro- kinesis; tele- thesia and cognition; or ego and psycho- projection. Are you intending these to be separate powers, power trees, or something else? They don't seem to be defined enough to order them by power. Some also are very difficult to implement in a game, like precognition. Others can break games where secrets are important, like psychometry.

Some overlap but not really once the mechanics are in place, Thermo only allows manipulating temperatures within a range, doesn't give you the ability to create fire/ice nor to control them.

Ego projection isn't an image, think of it like Astral projection.

Precognition isn't really hard to implement, I just need to nerf it enough and turn it into little more than hunches until higher levels.

Same thing is true for Psychometry.

The list looks pretty good.  The only possible additions I can think of would be a variety of direct mind to mind attack abilities, such as those found in AD&D psionics, the Deryni books, or the Octavia Butler books. You might also break out mind control into several skills, such as the ability to force emotions, compel actions, edit memories, rewrite personality, and so on.

Quote from: Mishihari on December 09, 2021, 01:35:31 AM
The list looks pretty good.  The only possible additions I can think of would be a variety of direct mind to mind attack abilities, such as those found in AD&D psionics, the Deryni books, or the Octavia Butler books. You might also break out mind control into several skills, such as the ability to force emotions, compel actions, edit memories, rewrite personality, and so on.

Those are disciplines, think of it like magic schools/spheres. Each has different aplications.

Mind to mind should be telepathy, I'm still working on the mechanics, will add 2-3 different examples for each discipline for using it in defense/peaceful mode and another 2-3 for attack. And do it in such a way the player with the GM can come up with new uses.

Most of what you want me to break mind control into is already there.

But, here's the thing, I still need to break the disciplines into levels, a la spell levels. Putting the more powerful ones in the upper level and the less powerful ones in the lower one. The Psion knows the discipline, just hasn't really learned to use it in any reliable way yet. So every level the PC gains a new discipline and every uneven level he can also increase his control of one previously known discipline.

It's hard to explain, you'll need to wait and see when I have made more progress how it's all going to work.

Telecognition is usually referred to as clairvoyance and is associated with astral body projection though it is also linked to medium scrying and with using the senses of others who are present at the distantly observed phenomena. .

Telepathy might benefit from tele communications theory with a network form where you join a circle of telepathic communication and peer to peer which would be the tight beam mind to mind DM version. Then you have active where you steal thoughts by transmitting and looking for responses and passive where you receive thoughts as if they are noise.

Quote from: palaeomerus on December 09, 2021, 05:41:23 PM
Telepathy might benefit from tele communications theory with a network form where you join a circle of telepathic communication and peer to peer which would be the tight beam mind to mind DM version. Then you have active where you steal thoughts by transmitting and looking for responses and passive where you receive thoughts as if they are noise.

Building slightly on this because it slapped me in the face.

Consider doing this kind of like the greater trump cards in Zelazny's Amber where you could potentially eavesdrop on others.

Quote from: palaeomerus on December 09, 2021, 05:38:30 PM
Telecognition is usually referred to as clairvoyance and is associated with astral body projection though it is also linked to medium scrying and with using the senses of others who are present at the distantly observed phenomena. .

True but I wanted unique names if possible. I like the using the sense of others idea, need to make that into one of the use examples.

Quote from: palaeomerus on December 09, 2021, 05:41:23 PM
Telepathy might benefit from tele communications theory with a network form where you join a circle of telepathic communication and peer to peer which would be the tight beam mind to mind DM version. Then you have active where you steal thoughts by transmitting and looking for responses and passive where you receive thoughts as if they are noise.

Increasing the total range of all the participants in the network.

It needs a range limit, as in you have to be no further away than X from the closest node in the network to be able to connect.

It also needs to be not constant connection, more like dial up internet.

This needs to have some possible drawbacks tho. Psychic backlash if anyone in the network is killed?

Quote from: Jason Coplen on December 09, 2021, 06:09:47 PM

Quote from: palaeomerus on December 09, 2021, 05:41:23 PM
Telepathy might benefit from tele communications theory with a network form where you join a circle of telepathic communication and peer to peer which would be the tight beam mind to mind DM version. Then you have active where you steal thoughts by transmitting and looking for responses and passive where you receive thoughts as if they are noise.

Building slightly on this because it slapped me in the face.

Consider doing this kind of like the greater trump cards in Zelazny's Amber where you could potentially eavesdrop on others.

Haven't read that, care to expand?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 09, 2021, 08:52:34 PM

Quote from: Jason Coplen on December 09, 2021, 06:09:47 PM

Quote from: palaeomerus on December 09, 2021, 05:41:23 PM
Telepathy might benefit from tele communications theory with a network form where you join a circle of telepathic communication and peer to peer which would be the tight beam mind to mind DM version. Then you have active where you steal thoughts by transmitting and looking for responses and passive where you receive thoughts as if they are noise.

Building slightly on this because it slapped me in the face.

Consider doing this kind of like the greater trump cards in Zelazny's Amber where you could potentially eavesdrop on others.

Haven't read that, care to expand?

Greater Trumps were magical items where you could contact the person the trump was made of. You could see them and even pull someone through them. Great means of communication. It was discovered later on that one guy was eavesdropping on communications. Think of instant messengers where you and I, per say, could discuss things. Unknown to us someone was eavesdropping on our chat. The insecurity of messengers is well known, but many people never consider that someone could eavesdrop on them. Wouldn't some psyker (for lack of a better term) think he was contacting Joe Schmoe and just him when someone else is sitting back hearing everything? It all gets tricky. Who would or could you trust when your telepathy has been turned into a CB radio? That adds an uncertainty element and has much potential for conflict.

I like what you have and will be following here and on twitter.

Quote from: Jason Coplen on December 09, 2021, 09:32:38 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 09, 2021, 08:52:34 PM

Quote from: Jason Coplen on December 09, 2021, 06:09:47 PM

Quote from: palaeomerus on December 09, 2021, 05:41:23 PM
Telepathy might benefit from tele communications theory with a network form where you join a circle of telepathic communication and peer to peer which would be the tight beam mind to mind DM version. Then you have active where you steal thoughts by transmitting and looking for responses and passive where you receive thoughts as if they are noise.

Building slightly on this because it slapped me in the face.

Consider doing this kind of like the greater trump cards in Zelazny's Amber where you could potentially eavesdrop on others.

Haven't read that, care to expand?

Greater Trumps were magical items where you could contact the person the trump was made of. You could see them and even pull someone through them. Great means of communication. It was discovered later on that one guy was eavesdropping on communications. Think of instant messengers where you and I, per say, could discuss things. Unknown to us someone was eavesdropping on our chat. The insecurity of messengers is well known, but many people never consider that someone could eavesdrop on them. Wouldn't some psyker (for lack of a better term) think he was contacting Joe Schmoe and just him when someone else is sitting back hearing everything? It all gets tricky. Who would or could you trust when your telepathy has been turned into a CB radio? That adds an uncertainty element and has much potential for conflict.

I like what you have and will be following here and on twitter.

Right, that sounds interesting, but it would need a risk of some sort, d% lets say you start with 15% chance of not being caught and go up until 95% chance of not being caught.

I feel like you've got a lot, especially since these are supposed to be Disciplines. But lemme give you some more. Some of these are more like techniques than others.

Somatokinesis: Physical augmentation using a mixture of biological and telekinetic manipulation. Might fall under Biokinesis.
Astral Projection: I know this is something else, but I use it to refer to creating weapons with your own mind. This also extends to constructs, but blades are the easiest. If your projection is broken, it causes psychic damage.
Psionic Shield: You have this already, but I like to extend this to physical powers at the highest levels. Nothing makes a telekinetic freak out like realizing he can't throw a car at a guy.
Bio Leech: Drain your target's bio electricity. Probably too small for a total discipline.
Teleportation: Move between two spaces without occupying the space in between.
Probability Manipulation: Influence the outcome of events (dice rolls) by twisting luck in your favor.
Mind Trap: Mentally cage the target, making them experience another reality that's just in their head. Time can be warped too; 1 minute outside, 10 or more minutes inside.

Option - rather than specific powers make them levels of bigger disciplines, and then each advance you can pick and choose what to develop further. Or even e

Like:

- Energy manipulation (Shields, Fire, Ice, Electricity)
- Sensory manipulation (Illusions of all sorts, including Mind Trap)
- Emotion manipulation (both reading and inducing)
- Thought control (including memory and knowledge manipulation)
- Biokinesis
- Probability manipulation (includes Teleportation)
- Mind projection (including mental time travel)

QuoteTrue but I wanted unique names if possible. I like the using the sense of others idea, need to make that into one of the use examples.

Name them appropriately to the setting.

For instance if your setting is antediluvian prehyperborean Finno-Korean Hyper-War give each power double Finnic / Korean name ;)

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 14, 2021, 04:50:29 AM
For instance if your setting is antediluvian prehyperborean Finno-Korean Hyper-War give each power double Finnic / Korean name ;)

Is that just a fr'instance, or an actual thing?  'Cause that sounds awesome

I'm not sure if it's some real looney jingoistic teory by some Estonians or what, but there was this lame high-school-atheist meme about hole in humanity development caused by Medieval Period.

So someone make simmilar meme with much longer human prehistory presumably taken from various looney quasi-Atlantic theories.

Here it is - original meme is in far right:

(https://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1474/23/1474233509560.png)

It has it's Wiki

https://hispedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Finno-Korean_Hyperwar#:~:text=The%20Finno%2DKorean%20Hyperwar%20was,from%20between%208245%20%2D%206172%20BC.

https://tumblrgallery.xyz/post/1574455.html

There are also other less funny variants:

(https://scontent-frt3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/29512290_611323305883265_3235283628912118828_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=36a2c1&_nc_ohc=uvyTO8-fGMcAX9AbZ_4&_nc_ht=scontent-frt3-2.xx&oh=00_AT82qAfZBRMh0LT4mdnNt1kgf2UV_-k-LP7aQfAZ6sPK9Q&oe=61E06E46)

(https://img.ifunny.co/images/84fb6e883f9da25f8a47ada2a1e92c9d232737502d1f51703feb3cfcb39760c7_1.jpg)

(//)

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 14, 2021, 04:50:29 AM
Option - rather than specific powers make them levels of bigger disciplines, and then each advance you can pick and choose what to develop further. Or even e

Like:

- Energy manipulation (Shields, Fire, Ice, Electricity)
- Sensory manipulation (Illusions of all sorts, including Mind Trap)
- Emotion manipulation (both reading and inducing)
- Thought control (including memory and knowledge manipulation)
- Biokinesis
- Probability manipulation (includes Teleportation)
- Mind projection (including mental time travel)

Way ahead of you, check the attachment.

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 14, 2021, 04:50:29 AM

QuoteTrue but I wanted unique names if possible. I like the using the sense of others idea, need to make that into one of the use examples.

Name them appropriately to the setting.

For instance if your setting is antediluvian prehyperborean Finno-Korean Hyper-War give each power double Finnic / Korean name ;)

What makes you think those names aren't setting appropriate? (Guess I could make up Venusian words no one is going to use but nah.)

Quote from: PsyXypher on December 11, 2021, 02:20:03 AM
I feel like you've got a lot, especially since these are supposed to be Disciplines. But lemme give you some more. Some of these are more like techniques than others.

Somatokinesis: Physical augmentation using a mixture of biological and telekinetic manipulation. Might fall under Biokinesis.
Astral Projection: I know this is something else, but I use it to refer to creating weapons with your own mind. This also extends to constructs, but blades are the easiest. If your projection is broken, it causes psychic damage.
Psionic Shield: You have this already, but I like to extend this to physical powers at the highest levels. Nothing makes a telekinetic freak out like realizing he can't throw a car at a guy.
Bio Leech: Drain your target's bio electricity. Probably too small for a total discipline.
Teleportation: Move between two spaces without occupying the space in between.
Probability Manipulation: Influence the outcome of events (dice rolls) by twisting luck in your favor.
Mind Trap: Mentally cage the target, making them experience another reality that's just in their head. Time can be warped too; 1 minute outside, 10 or more minutes inside.

Hadn't seen your post cuz I haven't been online, I like somatokinesis, it's to give you an attribute boost right?
Bio Leech goes under Biokinesis, thanks I'm in need of entries for that particular one.

Not too sure about teleportation or probability manipulation tho, first both sound too much like magic and second which main discipline would they go under?

I'm not sure I grok what you mean in Psionic Shield tho, care to expand?

Mind Trap, I like it, I like it a lot.

QuoteNot too sure about teleportation or probability manipulation tho, first both sound too much like magic and second which main discipline would they go under?

Psionic based teleportation seems to be quite old trope. Like think Nightcrawler from X-Men, like 95% of their powers goes under psionics.
Even prob.manipulation of Scarlet Witch while she is IIRC later proper witch, spellcaster, her basic probability meddling is psionic mutation.

I think Probability Manipulation should be it's own schtick with own powers tree starting with adding bonuses, then re-rolls, and so on.
Now that I think it Teleportation could be made part of P.M. Rather than Warp Space-time itself you can just probabilitate yourself into different place by QUANTS.

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 19, 2021, 02:11:43 PM

QuoteNot too sure about teleportation or probability manipulation tho, first both sound too much like magic and second which main discipline would they go under?

Psionic based teleportation seems to be quite old trope. Like think Nightcrawler from X-Men, like 95% of their powers goes under psionics.
Even prob.manipulation of Scarlet Witch while she is IIRC later proper witch, spellcaster, her basic probability meddling is psionic mutation.

I think Probability Manipulation should be it's own schtick with own powers tree starting with adding bonuses, then re-rolls, and so on.
Now that I think it Teleportation could be made part of P.M. Rather than Warp Space-time itself you can just probabilitate yourself into different place by QUANTS.

Depending on your underlying conception of how psionics works, you could group powers in many different ways. Thinking about some of the (pseudo-)theory underlying it, and whether to update more traditionally Campbellian explanations to more modern concepts like quantum tunneling, and then regrouping as necessary, might help adjudicating interactions between different powers.

Quote from: Pat on December 19, 2021, 02:22:13 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 19, 2021, 02:11:43 PM

QuoteNot too sure about teleportation or probability manipulation tho, first both sound too much like magic and second which main discipline would they go under?

Psionic based teleportation seems to be quite old trope. Like think Nightcrawler from X-Men, like 95% of their powers goes under psionics.
Even prob.manipulation of Scarlet Witch while she is IIRC later proper witch, spellcaster, her basic probability meddling is psionic mutation.

I think Probability Manipulation should be it's own schtick with own powers tree starting with adding bonuses, then re-rolls, and so on.
Now that I think it Teleportation could be made part of P.M. Rather than Warp Space-time itself you can just probabilitate yourself into different place by QUANTS.

Depending on your underlying conception of how psionics works, you could group powers in many different ways. Thinking about some of the (pseudo-)theory underlying it, and whether to update more traditionally Campbellian explanations to more modern concepts like quantum tunneling, and then regrouping as necessary, might help adjudicating interactions between different powers.

Wouldn't manipulating quants or whatever require you to at least know those things exist?

Relevant because of the setting I'm going to include Psionics in. Pulp Venus, I'm not sure this would fit in that setting, but I'm open to be convinced otherwise.

Anyhow I might go for an open system, more effects based than usual in OSR games. Where the PC has X Power and has to negotiate with the GM how he wants to use it. Either that or the Class + Powers might end up being a suplement since this is really hard work creating all from scratch.

And I'm really busy populating the planet with alien life forms and stating them.

QuoteWouldn't manipulating quants or whatever require you to at least know those things exist?

Depends how smart your psionics are.
Like there is this notion of whether your magic is smart or dumb in understanding your intentions. Ergo how deep you need understand nature of your powers and their relation to physics/metaphysics to really use them.

With psionicism you can do things science of your Pulp Venus or modern Earth consideres impossible and don't understand how those work - and you just do them.
Does your psionic need to calculate in his mind physical elements to push car exactly 12 metres or is it done more on subconcious level by mysterious nature of XSP powers.

I wrote an article about OSR psionics for Knockspell #6 back in 2011. Tenkar wrote a review:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product_reviews_info.php?&reviews_id=63993&products_id=94955 (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product_reviews_info.php?&reviews_id=63993&products_id=94955)

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 06, 2022, 08:04:03 PM

QuoteWouldn't manipulating quants or whatever require you to at least know those things exist?

Depends how smart your psionics are.
Like there is this notion of whether your magic is smart or dumb in understanding your intentions. Ergo how deep you need understand nature of your powers and their relation to physics/metaphysics to really use them.

With psionicism you can do things science of your Pulp Venus or modern Earth consideres impossible and don't understand how those work - and you just do them.
Does your psionic need to calculate in his mind physical elements to push car exactly 12 metres or is it done more on subconcious level by mysterious nature of XSP powers.

Psionics aren't smart, dumb or anything in between, it's the psion who uses it and determines how it's used. It's not a living energy whatever.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 06, 2022, 08:19:19 PM
I wrote an article about OSR psionics for Knockspell #6 back in 2011. Tenkar wrote a review:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product_reviews_info.php?&reviews_id=63993&products_id=94955 (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product_reviews_info.php?&reviews_id=63993&products_id=94955)

Thanks, cheking it out.

But still question is how smart psion have to be to use own powers. Does telepath needs to understand neurology otherwise he would blow someone's head off? If not... then I see no reason why he could not teleport via quantum tunneling or space folding without knowing jack-shit about quantum physics.

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 06, 2022, 08:26:54 PM
But still question is how smart psion have to be to use own powers. Does telepath needs to understand neurology otherwise he would blow someone's head off? If not... then I see no reason why he could not teleport via quantum tunneling or space folding without knowing jack-shit about quantum physics.

Is the telepath mindhandling your neurological pathways? I would think that would fall under Biokinesis. And yes, I do think the psion needs a certain amount of knowledge to perform certain things, for instance making a cut cloth is easy, but performing psichosurgery does need some anatomic knowledge.

Maybe I haven't mentioned it but I don't want magic with a very thin coat of paint. It has to feel/function different or I'm not using it.

QuoteIs the telepath mindhandling your neurological pathways? I would think that would fall under Biokinesis. And yes, I do think the psion needs a certain amount of knowledge to perform certain things, for instance making a cut cloth is easy, but performing psichosurgery does need some anatomic knowledge.

If telepath cannot handle neurological pathways of other person - how on earth can he read thoughts? And even more - send own thought to given person as form of communication. There is no esoteric thought dimension - if you scowl at quantum teleportation - well then I'm sorry thoughts are at least on science level just in our neuron cells. Same with empathy, emotional manipulation, perception manipulation. It's all BRAIN. Do with it what you want?

QuoteMaybe I haven't mentioned it but I don't want magic with a very thin coat of paint. It has to feel/function different or I'm not using it.

That's bad considering whole pulp psionic shtick came from certain less spiritualistic aspects of XIX-XX century esoteric interest. Sure you can easily differentiate it from real high magic let's call it - hermeticism and other. Ritualistic spiritual stuff. But magic as psychic powers that's specifically pulp magic. And D&D magic... is I dunno even, it's try to be more like medieval magic, but demands of system make it more like superpower Mandrake Magician.

I'd say whole pulp thing is - you have superpowers. Depends how you paint the setting you can show them as results of psionic powers/arcane magic/gamma ray mutation - but ultimately they lack real root neither in religion nor magic nor science. Religion/magic/science are just thin paint... if you dig deep enough - there is no much difference on pulpish level between Professor X, some pulp era telepath, powerful enchanter wizard or saint with powers to see through people's bullshit.

So either invent really good pseudo-physics to justify and limit your specific psionic powers, or just you know accept it's just elf-bullshit painted with sci-fi chrome paint, and organise powers from gaming perspective, and just give them proper flavour in language and lots of handwavium.

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 06, 2022, 09:40:31 PM

QuoteIs the telepath mindhandling your neurological pathways? I would think that would fall under Biokinesis. And yes, I do think the psion needs a certain amount of knowledge to perform certain things, for instance making a cut cloth is easy, but performing psichosurgery does need some anatomic knowledge.

If telepath cannot handle neurological pathways of other person - how on earth can he read thoughts? And even more - send own thought to given person as form of communication. There is no esoteric thought dimension - if you scowl at quantum teleportation - well then I'm sorry thoughts are at least on science level just in our neuron cells. Same with empathy, emotional manipulation, perception manipulation. It's all BRAIN. Do with it what you want?

QuoteMaybe I haven't mentioned it but I don't want magic with a very thin coat of paint. It has to feel/function different or I'm not using it.

That's bad considering whole pulp psionic shtick came from certain less spiritualistic aspects of XIX-XX century esoteric interest. Sure you can easily differentiate it from real high magic let's call it - hermeticism and other. Ritualistic spiritual stuff. But magic as psychic powers that's specifically pulp magic. And D&D magic... is I dunno even, it's try to be more like medieval magic, but demands of system make it more like superpower Mandrake Magician.

I'd say whole pulp thing is - you have superpowers. Depends how you paint the setting you can show them as results of psionic powers/arcane magic/gamma ray mutation - but ultimately they lack real root neither in religion nor magic nor science. Religion/magic/science are just thin paint... if you dig deep enough - there is no much difference on pulpish level between Professor X, some pulp era telepath, powerful enchanter wizard or saint with powers to see through people's bullshit.

So either invent really good pseudo-physics to justify and limit your specific psionic powers, or just you know accept it's just elf-bullshit painted with sci-fi chrome paint, and organise powers from gaming perspective, and just give them proper flavour in language and lots of handwavium.

The same way a radio can "read" radio waves from the emisor, and if it's a two way radio can both "read" and emit. My CB isn't manipulating yours in order for you and I to be able to communicate thru radio waves.

Thus telepathy is different from telekinetics and both are different from the other psionic powers, who are also different to each other.

As for the rest of your post... Well, that's your opinion man.

I know you love to assert your opinions as fact, doesn't mean they are.

QuoteAs for the rest of your post... Well, that's your opinion man.

I know you love to assert your opinions as fact, doesn't mean they are.

But... it is.
Unless you have really well-done metaphysics/fake-physics up-down to simulate it's results in game, all those powers are just powers. You can colour them as magic, as psionicism, as mutant superpowers, or divine gifts from Allah. Doesn't matter, because without well proper model of working - they serve merely as gaming/plot devices in your game. Which TBH magic in D&D always did - there never was proper notion about nature of Arcane, it just was - for a game, just like later psionicism. :P

And if there is real deep difference I'd love to here what it is.

QuoteThe same way a radio can "read" radio waves from the emisor, and if it's a two way radio can both "read" and emit. My CB isn't manipulating yours in order for you and I to be able to communicate thru radio waves.

Thus telepathy is different from telekinetics and both are different from the other psionic powers, who are also different to each other.

OK if telepathy don't allow for communication and influencing thoughts then I guess, it can be form of perception of electric currents. Yet again it would have to be SMART PSIONICS, because good luck deciphering thoughts from you know actual electric field of someone's brain :P

When I did my article on OSR psionics, my goal was to make them separate from magic, mostly by operating differently.

However, everything a PC does "special" is effectively a Super Power and we know this from a litany of "point build games" from Champions onward. Champions *MAY* have been the first to explicitly tell players to re-skin generic powers to fit the character design and that's really the underpinnings of every other game system that has "unique" spells or powers for various classes and races.

Thus, HOW psionics differs from magic on a SYSTEM LEVEL is probably  not as important as how it differs on a SETTING LEVEL in the game. If you can alter the mechanics so psionics "feels" different magic in actual play, all the better.

BTW, psionics is magic in Tunnels & Trolls. It's in the basic description and then effectively tossed aside.

QuoteWhen I did my article on OSR psionics, my goal was to make them separate from magic, mostly by operating differently.

However, everything a PC does "special" is effectively a Super Power and we know this from a litany of "point build games" from Champions onward. Champions *MAY* have been the first to explicitly tell players to re-skin generic powers to fit the character design and that's really the underpinnings of every other game system that has "unique" spells or powers for various classes and races.

Thus, HOW psionics differs from magic on a SYSTEM LEVEL is probably  not as important as how it differs on a SETTING LEVEL in the game. If you can alter the mechanics so psionics "feels" different magic in actual play, all the better.

BTW, psionics is magic in Tunnels & Trolls. It's in the basic description and then effectively tossed aside.

Indeed. Like in 3.5 difference is magic proper is Vancian, while psionicism is Point Buy, and few differences in actual powers made more for a vibe than some actual deep difference.
I think it's possible to have various "supernatural" powers with widely different both gameplay and in-universe meaning, alas that demands some craft.
Alas I don't think it's a difference that really exist on pulp level, because pulp settings by very nature are mostly furniture for cool cinematic stuff.

I think there are merits to any interpretation of psionics including using coventions in a genre to set a standard through particular works (like "vampirism" rules following Dracula or Salem's Lot or Anne Rice or whatever) but this is about G-Bugle building his own version so he gets the final word, the editorial fiat, after he looks over the suggestions proffered. He gets to decide if it's quantum wave collapsing by privileged observation or vibrations or cosmic dice rolling or spirits acting on the psycho-ether or people's minds touching ancient machines buried in the Earth by a prior civilization or a brain mutation that produces a new lobe or irradiated lobster protein extract injected into the neck near a ley line during a dimensional syzygy or wishes or...

Psionics is the goofiest shit to ever come out of D&D. Why does anyone like this? What are the Appendix N sources for Psionics that people apparently enjoy so much?

Darkover? was that appendix n?

QuotePsionics is the goofiest shit to ever come out of D&D. Why does anyone like this? What are the Appendix N sources for Psionics that people apparently enjoy so much?

It's just cool. Especially since arcane magic is sort of dry, as underlying theory imply some terrible rituals and sacred geometry we really do not see, psionics profits because its magic simple in its nature and yet efficient.

Quote from: Trinculoisdead on January 09, 2022, 02:11:31 PM
Psionics is the goofiest shit to ever come out of D&D. Why does anyone like this? What are the Appendix N sources for Psionics that people apparently enjoy so much?

Psionics is basically scifi magic. Some of D&D's influences include scifi. IIRC there was at least one adventure involving a crashed alien spacecraft.

https://sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/psionics

Yeah okay, so it's from the sci-fi side of things. No wonder I bounce off of it so much.

Player characters with psionics just feel like 5e sorcerers to me: special little flaming-haired emotion-casters. The ultimate in Mary Sue-dom: the edge-lord, the anime-god, the cheetos-dusted teleporting pussy-slayer. The "Ha, you thought I was done?..."

While psionics were described using sci-fi aspects, I honest easily can see them in some India-China paradigm of controling own mental and vital powers via meditation and hard training, instead of using some weird ritualistic sacred geometry and memorize complex formulas. The 4E choice to make Monk the Psychic Striker was I think good step in this direction.

After all most archetypes about psionic like powers came from XIX century spiritualism and parapsychology, not sci-fi really.

Mm yeah that makes sense.

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 10, 2022, 03:26:54 AM
While psionics were described using sci-fi aspects, I honest easily can see them in some India-China paradigm of controling own mental and vital powers via meditation and hard training, instead of using some weird ritualistic sacred geometry and memorize complex formulas. The 4E choice to make Monk the Psychic Striker was I think good step in this direction.

After all most archetypes about psionic like powers came from XIX century spiritualism and parapsychology, not sci-fi really.

Yeah, but a lot of that came from pseudoscientific attempts to explain magic and spiritual phenomena, at a time when sci-fi was taking off as a genre, which is where the association comes from. But psionics are literally magic using modern pseudoscientific terminology. Even to the degree that "psionic" depictions of how these supernatural abilities work might match Eastern Mysticism, those mystical traditions always existed before psionics and can also be found to some extend or another in western or shamanic mystical traditions, which are not exclusively based around rituals and complex formulas.

This is why attempts to differentiate magic from "psionics" at some fundamental level always fail. It's like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. The most you can hope for is establish different mystical practices with different pros and cons (like maybe rituals are much stronger, but take time and materials, while psionics are weaker and more subtle but can be done with your hands bound). But at the end of the day magic is magic and psionics are magic by another (pseudoscientific) name.

Yeah, psionics draws from the Western occult revival, Edwardian pseudoscience and Eastern Mysticism. http://recedingrules.blogspot.com/2011/01/problem-with-psionics.html Traditional psionics (e.g. 3.x SRD, Dreamscarred Press) draws mostly from Edwardian pseudoscience and the scifi genre. Paizo's "occult" take on psionics draws mostly from the occult revival. 3pp like Meditations of the Imperial Mystics give monks psionic powers by another name, while 4e outright gave monks the psionic power source.

I prefer to use a universal magic system and then differentiate different power sources with different limitations, as is done by Spheres of Power. http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/

I mean I think one way to truly make it non-magical is to make it something like mutation from X-men, working just because, and not really art you need to hone.
So no complex disciplines - you merely have superpower because fake-biology, just like electric eel has electricity

Hello?
I know it has been a few months since this was posted, but I need to respond to this. One question, have any of you asked a real psychic about psionics?  do any of you have any personal experience with Psionics? Even one brief brush with the supernatural?
like all good writing, you need to do "RESEARCH", and you need to have "Experience" with the topic.
Why?
To make a really good book that conveys "WHAT" your topic is, what it feels like, what it means, how is it a part of the world.

1. The Sybil, an ancient Greek order of women-only psychics. The earliest record of the Sybil goes back 4,000 years ago.
The Sybil, would serve as the "Oracle of Delphi". 
2. Oneiroi. the ancient Greeks created beings who had god-like power, but were not gods. Oneiroi were gods of dreams.
There is a modern Greek society of "Dream explorers" that dates back centuries.
3. The Roma (Gypsies), the wandering folk is believed to have some measure of psychic ability. These people are not Egyptian, They are not Roman, They are people who fled Mongol hordes and found no shelter in the countries they fled to, and fled through. Some say they are the "west of india" people that Nazis called "Aryan".
4. Mesmer, a guy who sometimes hung out with Benjamin Franklin, the inventor of hypnosis, was said to also have "Mind powers".
5. Nostradamus, a physician who supposedly concealed the details of his precognitive dreams in cryptic poetry.
6. Grigori Rasputin, the mad monk. A Russian mystic who was said to have precognitive visions, healing powers, etc. before the fall of the Tzar.
His enemies tried to kill Rasputin a number of times; Stabbing, poison, strangling, hanging, shooting him, even tying the man up and tossing him in a freezing river to drown... He escaped the ropes and the icy river purportedly only to die of "Exposure" trying to enter a locked Palace building.

"Psionics" has some "peculiar" personages who may have had "mental powers" dating back centuries. The oldest mentions in western history could go back - to millennia before the beginning of the Egyptian dynasties. Signs of human civilization do not "Suddenly Start" only 5,000 years ago. Evidence from gobekli-tepe push the origins of civilization back 12,000 years, and other "rejected" archaeological discoveries point to numerous cataclysmic "bottlenecks" that wiped advanced human civilization from the earth many times! There are archaeological sites that date back to the Mt.Toba Super volcano eruption 65,000 to 70,000 years ago! One "Forbiden archaeology" site in Mexico dates back 120,000 years... a time when modern archaeology states there were no humans in the Americas.

1. Are people with psychic power Superheroes? nope. not even in the acknowledged C.I.A. remote viewing program. they are just people.
2. Are psychic people mutants, or evolved? Nope. the third eye (pineal gland) has been around for a very long time as a vestigial organ.
there are no humans to my knowledge born without a pineal gland, or one that is "Super-developed".

How does Psionics work? You may as well ask a quantum physicist how "observation" can change an outcome, or the various designs for experiments based on the "Double Slit" experiment, including "The quantum eraser".  Quantum wackiness is a bizarre metaphor for things mystics already knew. Nonlocality, teleportation, retrocausality, and a host of other strangeness that you should investigate. The Hawaiian Huna tradition defines distance as contact/familiarity... not a spatial dimension. "Two people shake hands they are forever connected by an unseen thread". A husband and wife are never far apart (spiritually).

Is the universe a hologram projected/emerging from higher-dimensional space/time, a computer simulation like "The Sims" on crack or the "Matrix" or something?
I do not know. "Information" does seem to the common thread though.

look at D&D cosmology, particularly the ASTRAL and ETHEREAL planes. ASTRAL is the dimension of thought. ETHEREAL is the dimension of spirit. you can regard these as some of "The light" that will create our hologram/universe.

A person, emerges from the three aspects;  Body (material), Mind (Astral), and Spirit (Ethereal).
The material world is explicate (EXPRESSED/MANIFEST), while the Mind and spirit are implicate (not observable).
A person is a higher dimensional hologram that has a presence that covers a surprisingly large area of space and time.
Consider EVERYWHERE you have ever gone. now consider EVERYWHERE the smallest fragment of you has gone, even smaller than Scent molecules!
The collected image that is your material body viewed through higher dimensions as well as space/time, is a massive "footprint", "Fingerprint", or "signature"... that is uniquely you.

Psychics are able to draw strength from all three "Images" or "ASPECTS" of the self. This is NOT the same as energy as defined by Physics. This psychic energy is YOU.

what have we pondered thus far?

1. is psionics "sci-fi"? the answer, ask the oneiroi...
2. is psionics a mutation? the answer, no. it is more like a "Talent" for drawing, riding horseback, playing piano, fluently speaking multiple languages, understanding higher math, telling jokes, making sales, etc. Some people have the talent. some of those people practice their talent. some of those people get to be REALLY GOOD at it (X).
3. is psionics a superpower? the answer, to people who know nothing about it HELL YES IT IS! to people who do know, "No. it seems to be a talent just like the ability to make art".
4. is psionics some kind of hippie spiritualism? the answer, no. people who claim self-deification are delusional. What Psionics is represented as depends on the EGO of its user. What psionics really is... is stranger than even I can imagine.
5. is psionics magic? the answer. depending on the EGO, some may say it is. Yet, I say it isn't. why?
John dee, Alister Crowley, Gothe, and others claim magic is a "metaphorical" language that uses the universe as a sounding board. They send out an arcane symbol and get back a reciprocal effect from the universe itself.  Psionics has no need for Enochian language, mad Arab runes, Egyptian mysticism, or symbolic devices (like stabbing a voodoo doll, or raising a staff on a windy cliff - so that later on when you raise your staff, wind will suddenly blow from nowhere) MAGIC does need these things. Magic needs an EXTERNAL working for spells.

Psionics is not magic. Psionics is an INTERNAL art. Psychics begin by learning to sense "internal energy" and to "read" impressions (implicate information) from that energy.

what about things like Apportation, psychokinesis, pyrokinesis, levitation?

have you ever played a video game on your personal computer? okay.
now, have you ever used a cheat code, altered the program yourself, or used a program to cheat?

That might be what it is like. I do not know. I still haven't learned to consciously do PK stuff.

The information of X is changed and the impossible happens. undetectable by physics because it is not a manifestation of energy, but a change in something "Implicate". Supposedly the human brain generates as much energy as jello beginning to melt. You aren't levitating anything with that little energy. it is obvious to me that "Something else" has to be happening.  Occam's razor instantly points to frauds, hoaxes, stage magician trickery, mental illness, and mistaken observers.

I personally know that there is a REAL thing, supernatural phenomena, stuff we don't understand. I call my experiences "Psychic" even though that just means "thinking/conscious/aware/experiencing".

Should psionic power be developed, gradually mastered, with very rare prodigies?
YES

Modern Artists over on Deviant art website, can have accounts dating back to BBS boards in the late 80's, the early days of the internet.
They can show you the progress of their skills over decades! the improvements can be astonishing.
Further, there was this documentary: https://youtu.be/tuam5GTHmt4
The healer states that he spent fifteen years learning to control his internal energy.

how is Psionics different from magical practice?
The psionicist goes within, internally for mental and spiritual exercise, psionic powers are "effortless effort"...

The Mage externally practices an "alien language/mathematics/legal system/bartering system" and how to make it "Go" with the right symbols and effort.
in role playing game terminology;
1. Creation. the creator had witnesses.
2. at least one witness was a traitor.
3. This traitor shared fragments from the "Song of creation" at a devastating cost.
4. Those who learned the fragments have no clue what they have, how it works, even what the symbols mean.
5. The various fragments have been hoarded by mages,
6. and the students no longer have to "make the bargain" to gain access to the fragments.
7. Mages only know that certain combinations do X, and struggle to unravel the fragment mysteries.
8. Arcane mages are like a "Script kiddie" with a dozen floppies of real hacker-made tools.
9. Casting a spell, is very loosely akin to "Opening a dos prompt" and running a script...

is magic real? of course not!
never mind that in the bible; pharaoh's magicians turned their staves into serpents, the witch of Endor summoned the spirit of Samuel the prophet for king Saul, or that the disciples were challenged to magic duels, one by a sorcerer who was LEVITATING...
Never mind odd bits of recorded history...
Never mind massive stone construction that we cannot duplicate today...
Never mind those scientific institutions and museums that seem to be covering up evidence for more strangeness than you or anyone could shake a stick at.
is Psionic ability real?
Professor Daryl Bem conducted a precognition experiment like this: the control group would be asked to take a spelling and dictionary meaning test.
So would the experiment group. The difference? The Experiment group would be allowed to read and study the ANSWERS after the test.
Every test used different words and different students.
This experiment went on for ten years. The result is that the control group always had a baseline score, while in the experiment group...
40% of those tested scored significantly higher! The cumulative weight of the meta-analysis was unbeatable. Here was scientific proof that SOME of us have some degree of Precognitive ability.

what did the NIH do? did they try to replicate the experiment? did they try to devise similar experiments? Did they follow the scientific method at all?

no. The NIH resorted to Ad Hom attacks, mockery and ridicule.  is there a cover up? occam's razor, says NO.

In light of the true story behind "The men who stare at goats" ...I am beginning to wonder.

Quote from: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 01:13:18 AM
Hello?
I know it has been a few months since this was posted, but I need to respond to this. One question, have any of you asked a real psychic about psionics?  do any of you have any personal experience with Psionics? Even one brief brush with the supernatural?
like all good writing, you need to do "RESEARCH", and you need to have "Experience" with the topic.
Why?
To make a really good book that conveys "WHAT" your topic is, what it feels like, what it means, how is it a part of the world.

1. The Sybil, an ancient Greek order of women-only psychics. The earliest record of the Sybil goes back 4,000 years ago.
The Sybil, would serve as the "Oracle of Delphi". 
2. Oneiroi. the ancient Greeks created beings who had god-like power, but were not gods. Oneiroi were gods of dreams.
There is a modern Greek society of "Dream explorers" that dates back centuries.
3. The Roma (Gypsies), the wandering folk is believed to have some measure of psychic ability. These people are not Egyptian, They are not Roman, They are people who fled Mongol hordes and found no shelter in the countries they fled to, and fled through. Some say they are the "west of india" people that Nazis called "Aryan".
4. Mesmer, a guy who sometimes hung out with Benjamin Franklin, the inventor of hypnosis, was said to also have "Mind powers".
5. Nostradamus, a physician who supposedly concealed the details of his precognitive dreams in cryptic poetry.
6. Grigori Rasputin, the mad monk. A Russian mystic who was said to have precognitive visions, healing powers, etc. before the fall of the Tzar.
His enemies tried to kill Rasputin a number of times; Stabbing, poison, strangling, hanging, shooting him, even tying the man up and tossing him in a freezing river to drown... He escaped the ropes and the icy river purportedly only to die of "Exposure" trying to enter a locked Palace building.

"Psionics" has some "peculiar" personages who may have had "mental powers" dating back centuries. The oldest mentions in western history could go back - to millennia before the beginning of the Egyptian dynasties. Signs of human civilization do not "Suddenly Start" only 5,000 years ago. Evidence from gobekli-tepe push the origins of civilization back 12,000 years, and other "rejected" archaeological discoveries point to numerous cataclysmic "bottlenecks" that wiped advanced human civilization from the earth many times! There are archaeological sites that date back to the Mt.Toba Super volcano eruption 65,000 to 70,000 years ago! One "Forbiden archaeology" site in Mexico dates back 120,000 years... a time when modern archaeology states there were no humans in the Americas.

None of your "factual claims" are backed by any shred of evidence, I always find it funny it's the Egyptians, Mayas, Stonhenge, etc that were built by aliens/ancient prehuman civilizations.

But as a source for a modern splatbook this is priceless, so thank you.

Quote from: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 02:59:36 AM
Should psionic power be developed, gradually mastered, with very rare prodigies?
YES

Modern Artists over on Deviant art website, can have accounts dating back to BBS boards in the late 80's, the early days of the internet.
They can show you the progress of their skills over decades! the improvements can be astonishing.
Further, there was this documentary: https://youtu.be/tuam5GTHmt4
The healer states that he spent fifteen years learning to control his internal energy.

how is Psionics different from magical practice?
The psionicist goes within, internally for mental and spiritual exercise, psionic powers are "effortless effort"...

The Mage externally practices an "alien language/mathematics/legal system/bartering system" and how to make it "Go" with the right symbols and effort.
in role playing game terminology;
1. Creation. the creator had witnesses.
2. at least one witness was a traitor.
3. This traitor shared fragments from the "Song of creation" at a devastating cost.
4. Those who learned the fragments have no clue what they have, how it works, even what the symbols mean.
5. The various fragments have been hoarded by mages,
6. and the students no longer have to "make the bargain" to gain access to the fragments.
7. Mages only know that certain combinations do X, and struggle to unravel the fragment mysteries.
8. Arcane mages are like a "Script kiddie" with a dozen floppies of real hacker-made tools.
9. Casting a spell, is very loosely akin to "Opening a dos prompt" and running a script...

Or, conversely, mages/wizards/witches call it what you might tap into the arcane background energy of the creation and the battles between the forces of good and evil. Said energy isn't easy to access much less control and not everyone can even feel it.

Over millenia humans born near sites where those energies bleed stronger into our world had a stronger link to it and learned to use it easier. Being born under the right circumntances might also have an effect, the stars aligned in the correct way if you will.

For some reason not ALL humans born near such power locci had the ebility to acces the power, but if the infant was born of two such individuals then it was guaranteed not only the access but the control over the power.

With time people noticed and witches married other witches only to have a stronger progeny.

Using the arcane energy isn't ever easy, it becomes easier due to certain things such as ancestry. But making pqcts with demons is one way to gaqin power, human sacrifice and blood rituals another. As such white witches are few and far between since black witches would use them as sacrifice to harvest even more power.

Quote from: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 03:55:08 AM
is magic real? of course not!
never mind that in the bible; pharaoh's magicians turned their staves into serpents, the witch of Endor summoned the spirit of Samuel the prophet for king Saul, or that the disciples were challenged to magic duels, one by a sorcerer who was LEVITATING...
Never mind odd bits of recorded history...
Never mind massive stone construction that we cannot duplicate today...
Never mind those scientific institutions and museums that seem to be covering up evidence for more strangeness than you or anyone could shake a stick at.
is Psionic ability real?
Professor Daryl Bem conducted a precognition experiment like this: the control group would be asked to take a spelling and dictionary meaning test.
So would the experiment group. The difference? The Experiment group would be allowed to read and study the ANSWERS after the test.
Every test used different words and different students.
This experiment went on for ten years. The result is that the control group always had a baseline score, while in the experiment group...
40% of those tested scored significantly higher! The cumulative weight of the meta-analysis was unbeatable. Here was scientific proof that SOME of us have some degree of Precognitive ability.

what did the NIH do? did they try to replicate the experiment? did they try to devise similar experiments? Did they follow the scientific method at all?

no. The NIH resorted to Ad Hom attacks, mockery and ridicule.  is there a cover up? occam's razor, says NO.

In light of the true story behind "The men who stare at goats" ...I am beginning to wonder.

Or what some call psionic ability IS magic.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 02, 2022, 01:49:52 PMOr what some call psionic ability IS magic.

if you know of Pathfinder 2E, you may know of the "Secrets of Magic" book. You may know that Pathfinder 2e acknowledges an underlying unknown as "the stuff of Magic", and has Four essences: Matter, mind, life, spirit, with unusual definitions (The Matter essence is like "Planck length" particles that can be any physical or energetic substance or force). A pair of essences tends to create a "Magical tradition".
Matter+mind= Arcane magic (wizards, sorcerers)
Matter+life= Primal magic (Druids, shamans, rune casters)
Life+spirit= Divine magic (clerics, priests, "champions" [paladins, liberators, redeemers])
Mind+spirit=Occult magic (psychics, bards, exorcists, ghost hunters)
the book makes no mention of Disputes between the traditions.
The book glosses over issues with spells that can do things the essences say they shouldn't (such as a divine caster summoning "Food and Drink" *clearly the province of Matter).
The book implies that there may be other combinations, as the "Four Essences" seem based in Ethereal mechanics...
While elementalists harness unknown essences via the Astral plane and its connection to the elemental planes: positive, negative, earth, water, fire, air, shadow, plant, dream, etc.

in the Pathfinder 2e paradigm, Psionics falls under the "Occult" tradition of magic, though in the real world this isn't a correct definition or description for psi.

Magic is external.
Spells are Script programs... a "Music" that sounds like an "industrial music" autohammer mashing a 1980's internet dial up modem connecting sound.
Psionics is internal.
Psionic powers are not "Concentration, belief, nor calculation"... it is "Focus" and "unconscious will". musically psionics is Single notes... not a song.

in White wolf Parlance...
MAGICK rips reality a new Arse'ole.
Psionics is a nudge, a "bump in the night", because we absolutely don't know anything absolutely...  ;D
There is a difference if you "Know" what you are talking about.
a construction worker knows the difference and use of a; Claw hammer, roofing hammer, sheetrock hammer, ball-peen hammer, etc.
I do not.

I do know my personal experiences with PSI though...

It's seriously fun to see people actually talking gaming around here. Thank you both.

have you ever seen a BMX race track in person? have you ever rode a bicycle?
can you imagine the strength and endurance needed for a BMX race?

it seems almost magical...
but it boils down to just "Ridding a bike".
2,000 years from now; a BMX race track will be called a burial mound, obviously meant for religious purposes, just look at the archaeological context!

but all it really is, is just a bike track.

Do you know what an electron microscope is?
how about an atomic scanning microscope?
what about an "Atomic force microscope"?

what if I told you that somewhere in America,
there are scientists building computers, one atom at a time
What if these scientists applied advances in printers to Atomic construction?
"precast keys" of molecular electronics, arrayed on a printing press, or a manual "Type writer", or a daisy wheel printer, or an ink jet printer...
ultimately learning to "print" electronics with individual atoms in a fashion akin to a "Laser printer"...

Can you imagine the world's most powerful super computer Ever existing as a nanoscopic speck measured in miniscule fractions of a nanometer?

Now, 75,000 years after Yellowstone supervolcano erases the USA...  you are an archaeologist. You find a really odd rock.
what you don't know is that it used to be part of a "human sized" form-factor for a computer so small your modern technology might never find it!
How would you find advanced technology like that... 120,000 years after that civilization was wiped out by the yellowstone erruption...
would you say "Not one shred of evidence" and throw the rock away? yeah. you would. because it would violate your belief that your civilization is the only civilization that developed technology.

asking you to have an open mind, is not asking you to shoot a hole in your head.

Quote from: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 03:00:13 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 02, 2022, 01:49:52 PMOr what some call psionic ability IS magic.

if you know of Pathfinder 2E, you may know of the "Secrets of Magic" book. You may know that Pathfinder 2e acknowledges an underlying unknown as "the stuff of Magic", and has Four essences: Matter, mind, life, spirit, with unusual definitions (The Matter essence is like "Planck length" particles that can be any physical or energetic substance or force). A pair of essences tends to create a "Magical tradition".
Matter+mind= Arcane magic (wizards, sorcerers)
Matter+life= Primal magic (Druids, shamans, rune casters)
Life+spirit= Divine magic (clerics, priests, "champions" [paladins, liberators, redeemers])
Mind+spirit=Occult magic (psychics, bards, exorcists, ghost hunters)
the book makes no mention of Disputes between the traditions.
The book glosses over issues with spells that can do things the essences say they shouldn't (such as a divine caster summoning "Food and Drink" *clearly the province of Matter).
The book implies that there may be other combinations, as the "Four Essences" seem based in Ethereal mechanics...
While elementalists harness unknown essences via the Astral plane and its connection to the elemental planes: positive, negative, earth, water, fire, air, shadow, plant, dream, etc.

in the Pathfinder 2e paradigm, Psionics falls under the "Occult" tradition of magic, though in the real world this isn't a correct definition or description for psi.

Magic is external.
Spells are Script programs... a "Music" that sounds like an "industrial music" autohammer mashing a 1980's internet dial up modem connecting sound.
Psionics is internal.
Psionic powers are not "Concentration, belief, nor calculation"... it is "Focus" and "unconscious will". musically psionics is Single notes... not a song.

in White wolf Parlance...
MAGICK rips reality a new Arse'ole.
Psionics is a nudge, a "bump in the night", because we absolutely don't know anything absolutely...  ;D
There is a difference if you "Know" what you are talking about.
a construction worker knows the difference and use of a; Claw hammer, roofing hammer, sheetrock hammer, ball-peen hammer, etc.
I do not.

I do know my personal experiences with PSI though...

I don't own PF2e, and also I want a different take on psionics, to do it "My Way" if you wish.

Part of that is that in-game psionics has no overlap with magic beyond maybe being able to achieve the same result/effect but it works in a totally different way.

The first use will be in a game with no magic, but, IF I manage to pull it off, I will use it in games with magic.

I'm also not aiming to make it like people who believe in PSI IRL think it works, I'm aiming for the rule of cool:

If it's cool it's good.

My current problem is in determining the mechanics without making it D&D spells with a thin coat of paint. Think I have made some progress but will need to clean some stuff before I'm ready to show it to people to get some input.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 02, 2022, 03:14:35 PM
It's seriously fun to see people actually talking gaming around here. Thank you both.

I often do, not long ago I posted a pulp class and other stuff, you just are more interested in arguing with the other team.

Quote from: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 03:23:03 PM
have you ever seen a BMX race track in person? have you ever rode a bicycle?
can you imagine the strength and endurance needed for a BMX race?

it seems almost magical...
but it boils down to just "Ridding a bike".
2,000 years from now; a BMX race track will be called a burial mound, obviously meant for religious purposes, just look at the archaeological context!

but all it really is, is just a bike track.

Do you know what an electron microscope is?
how about an atomic scanning microscope?
what about an "Atomic force microscope"?

what if I told you that somewhere in America,
there are scientists building computers, one atom at a time
What if these scientists applied advances in printers to Atomic construction?
"precast keys" of molecular electronics, arrayed on a printing press, or a manual "Type writer", or a daisy wheel printer, or an ink jet printer...
ultimately learning to "print" electronics with individual atoms in a fashion akin to a "Laser printer"...

Can you imagine the world's most powerful super computer Ever existing as a nanoscopic speck measured in miniscule fractions of a nanometer?

Now, 75,000 years after Yellowstone supervolcano erases the USA...  you are an archaeologist. You find a really odd rock.
what you don't know is that it used to be part of a "human sized" form-factor for a computer so small your modern technology might never find it!
How would you find advanced technology like that... 120,000 years after that civilization was wiped out by the yellowstone erruption...
would you say "Not one shred of evidence" and throw the rock away? yeah. you would. because it would violate your belief that your civilization is the only civilization that developed technology.

asking you to have an open mind, is not asking you to shoot a hole in your head.

I can imagine lots of stuff, doesn't make it true.

There's exactly zero scientific evidence of a pre-human civilization building the pyramids of Egyp like there's exactly zero evidence of Aliens doing it.

I do love me some conspiracy theories but there's some stuff too out there for even me to believe.

But since that's not a gaming related topic Why don't you create a thread in Pundit's forum so we can argue over it without violating the forum's rules?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 02, 2022, 03:47:27 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 02, 2022, 03:14:35 PM
It's seriously fun to see people actually talking gaming around here. Thank you both.

I often do, not long ago I posted a pulp class and other stuff, you just are more interested in arguing with the other team.

I don't see teams on the gaming part of the forum, unless the conversation is going way off.

In this case, I find the pseudo-science talk interesting for something like a Dark Matter (Alternity) type of game.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 02, 2022, 03:54:56 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 02, 2022, 03:47:27 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 02, 2022, 03:14:35 PM
It's seriously fun to see people actually talking gaming around here. Thank you both.

I often do, not long ago I posted a pulp class and other stuff, you just are more interested in arguing with the other team.

I don't see teams on the gaming part of the forum, unless the conversation is going way off.

In this case, I find the pseudo-science talk interesting for something like a Dark Matter (Alternity) type of game.

I do agree 100% that stuff is just perfect for my monster hunter game.

Equipped with the tools of reason, and training in sciences, explorers will always fall short of finding proof for anything...
Until we actually bother to go look and actually follow the scientific method (*EXPERIMENTS YO!). I dropped a small mountain of "easter eggs" in this thread. I invite you to go hunting. if you don't want to, you don't have to.
(*which emoji is the disappointed face?)

to sum up my posts:
1. Psionics is an internal art. The methods and techniques of psionics are not those of spell casters. The stuff of magic is gathered and manipulated according to various practices of each tradition... the Magic practices, do things externally (like ecstatic dancing with chicken carcasses). Psionics is internal.
2. Psionics is not superpowers. watching a guy start to slip into "theta state" is as boring as watching potatoes grow. The result of gathering actionable intelligence, from nap-time mumbling... is definitely unexpected though.
3. Psionic ability is not a mutation or evolution. the pineal gland is vestigial like the appendix, and no one is born without one.
4. Psionics is weird as weird as higher-dimensional geometry, maybe more so. it is easily misconstrued as magic by people who know nothing about it.
5. Few have the potential for psionic ability psionics requires some sort of natural talent, akin to artistic talent.
6. Psionics develops with practice one does not spend ten minutes inside a Karate studio, and come out able to punch holes in fence posts.
7. Psionics differs from magic in that it is subtle, unseen, invisible, easily blamed on something else, excused away by the science of modern "excusology".
8. There is a huge body of scientific evidence for psionics. at best, it is being ignored and derided for the sake of reputations and fragile egos.

Could your game world be improved by some of these speculations?
Could your writing be improved by drawing on research?
Could your writing be improved by citing a credible source?
Can personal experience improve your ability to convey a topic?

that is something we writers should pursue, INTIMATE knowledge of our topic.
lest we talk out our ace venturas...

Quote from: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 03:00:13 PM
Matter+mind= Arcane magic (wizards, sorcerers)
Matter+life= Primal magic (Druids, shamans, rune casters)
Life+spirit= Divine magic (clerics, priests, "champions" [paladins, liberators, redeemers])
Mind+spirit=Occult magic (psychics, bards, exorcists, ghost hunters)

the book makes no mention of Disputes between the traditions.
The book glosses over issues with spells that can do things the essences say they shouldn't (such as a divine caster summoning "Food and Drink" *clearly the province of Matter).
The book implies that there may be other combinations, as the "Four Essences" seem based in Ethereal mechanics...

With four particles, there are six possible pairings. Missing from the list are: Matter+Mind & Mind+Life.

I never read the book, but I'm not suprised it "glosses over" things. The author apparently wasn't smart enough to figure out the system they were trying to present. If they instead made groupings of three particles, they would have solved the problems they "glossed over."

Out of Matter, Mind, Life, Spirit, we'd get:
Matter+Mind+Spirit (arcane magic)
Matter+Mind+Life (primal magic)
Matter+Life+Spirit (divine magic)
Mind+Life+Spirit (occult magic)

Psionics could be something entirely separate from magic, or it could be the combination of all four particles, however a setting wants to define the interaction.

Quote from: Effete on May 02, 2022, 05:24:08 PM

Quote from: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 03:00:13 PM
Matter+mind= Arcane magic (wizards, sorcerers)
Matter+life= Primal magic (Druids, shamans, rune casters)
Life+spirit= Divine magic (clerics, priests, "champions" [paladins, liberators, redeemers])
Mind+spirit=Occult magic (psychics, bards, exorcists, ghost hunters)

the book makes no mention of Disputes between the traditions.
The book glosses over issues with spells that can do things the essences say they shouldn't (such as a divine caster summoning "Food and Drink" *clearly the province of Matter).
The book implies that there may be other combinations, as the "Four Essences" seem based in Ethereal mechanics...

With four particles, there are six possible pairings. Missing from the list are: Matter+Mind & Mind+Life.

I never read the book, but I'm not suprised it "glosses over" things. The author apparently wasn't smart enough to figure out the system they were trying to present. If they instead made groupings of three particles, they would have solved the problems they "glossed over."

Out of Matter, Mind, Life, Spirit, we'd get:
Matter+Mind+Spirit (arcane magic)
Matter+Mind+Life (primal magic)
Matter+Life+Spirit (divine magic)
Mind+Life+Spirit (occult magic)

Psionics could be something entirely separate from magic, or it could be the combination of all four particles, however a setting wants to define the interaction.

It also only applies to whichever fictional settings you choose to apply it to. You could also have a system based on all magic is either miracles from God or bargains with the Devil. You could have a system like some of the old Ultima games where different forms of magic are tied to the elements (ex. necromancy is earth magic while healing is water magic in one game for example).

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 02, 2022, 07:48:26 PM

Quote from: Effete on May 02, 2022, 05:24:08 PM

Quote from: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 03:00:13 PM
Matter+mind= Arcane magic (wizards, sorcerers)
Matter+life= Primal magic (Druids, shamans, rune casters)
Life+spirit= Divine magic (clerics, priests, "champions" [paladins, liberators, redeemers])
Mind+spirit=Occult magic (psychics, bards, exorcists, ghost hunters)

the book makes no mention of Disputes between the traditions.
The book glosses over issues with spells that can do things the essences say they shouldn't (such as a divine caster summoning "Food and Drink" *clearly the province of Matter).
The book implies that there may be other combinations, as the "Four Essences" seem based in Ethereal mechanics...

With four particles, there are six possible pairings. Missing from the list are: Matter+Mind & Mind+Life.

I never read the book, but I'm not suprised it "glosses over" things. The author apparently wasn't smart enough to figure out the system they were trying to present. If they instead made groupings of three particles, they would have solved the problems they "glossed over."

Out of Matter, Mind, Life, Spirit, we'd get:
Matter+Mind+Spirit (arcane magic)
Matter+Mind+Life (primal magic)
Matter+Life+Spirit (divine magic)
Mind+Life+Spirit (occult magic)

Psionics could be something entirely separate from magic, or it could be the combination of all four particles, however a setting wants to define the interaction.

It also only applies to whichever fictional settings you choose to apply it to. You could also have a system based on all magic is either miracles from God or bargains with the Devil. You could have a system like some of the old Ultima games where different forms of magic are tied to the elements (ex. necromancy is earth magic while healing is water magic in one game for example).

Oh, definitely!
I'm guessing since this was written for PF it was intended to explain the "core" traditions.

Honestly, over the decades I've been gaming, I found that less-is-more, especially when it comes to magic. You'll want to setup a clear distinction, both narratively and in the mechanics, but attempting any sort of in-depth explanation is futile. Most players won't care, most explanations would be filled with flaws and contradictions, and if you're publishing a book, it's a waste of page-space. Just say, "THIS is magic, THIS is miracles, THIS is psionics" and leave it at that. Players that care can fill in the blanks themselves.

QuoteWith four particles, there are six possible pairings. Missing from the list are: Matter+Mind & Mind+Life.

I never read the book, but I'm not suprised it "glosses over" things. The author apparently wasn't smart enough to figure out the system they were trying to present. If they instead made groupings of three particles, they would have solved the problems they "glossed over."

Out of Matter, Mind, Life, Spirit, we'd get:
Matter+Mind+Spirit (arcane magic)
Matter+Mind+Life (primal magic)
Matter+Life+Spirit (divine magic)
Mind+Life+Spirit (occult magic)

Psionics could be something entirely separate from magic, or it could be the combination of all four particles, however a setting wants to define the interaction.

It's also possible that Matter + Spirit and Mind + Life are impossibility like they are anti-essences for each other. Just random idea.

TBH considering eccentric beliefs of our PsiUser - I'm not sure if this MindLife thing was ever in official Pathfinder lore, or was it just his invention.