what have we pondered thus far?

1. is psionics "sci-fi"? the answer, ask the oneiroi...
2. is psionics a mutation? the answer, no. it is more like a "Talent" for drawing, riding horseback, playing piano, fluently speaking multiple languages, understanding higher math, telling jokes, making sales, etc. Some people have the talent. some of those people practice their talent. some of those people get to be REALLY GOOD at it (X).
3. is psionics a superpower? the answer, to people who know nothing about it HELL YES IT IS! to people who do know, "No. it seems to be a talent just like the ability to make art".
4. is psionics some kind of hippie spiritualism? the answer, no. people who claim self-deification are delusional. What Psionics is represented as depends on the EGO of its user. What psionics really is... is stranger than even I can imagine.
5. is psionics magic? the answer. depending on the EGO, some may say it is. Yet, I say it isn't. why?
John dee, Alister Crowley, Gothe, and others claim magic is a "metaphorical" language that uses the universe as a sounding board. They send out an arcane symbol and get back a reciprocal effect from the universe itself.  Psionics has no need for Enochian language, mad Arab runes, Egyptian mysticism, or symbolic devices (like stabbing a voodoo doll, or raising a staff on a windy cliff - so that later on when you raise your staff, wind will suddenly blow from nowhere) MAGIC does need these things. Magic needs an EXTERNAL working for spells.

Psionics is not magic. Psionics is an INTERNAL art. Psychics begin by learning to sense "internal energy" and to "read" impressions (implicate information) from that energy.

what about things like Apportation, psychokinesis, pyrokinesis, levitation?

have you ever played a video game on your personal computer? okay.
now, have you ever used a cheat code, altered the program yourself, or used a program to cheat?

That might be what it is like. I do not know. I still haven't learned to consciously do PK stuff.

The information of X is changed and the impossible happens. undetectable by physics because it is not a manifestation of energy, but a change in something "Implicate". Supposedly the human brain generates as much energy as jello beginning to melt. You aren't levitating anything with that little energy. it is obvious to me that "Something else" has to be happening.  Occam's razor instantly points to frauds, hoaxes, stage magician trickery, mental illness, and mistaken observers.

I personally know that there is a REAL thing, supernatural phenomena, stuff we don't understand. I call my experiences "Psychic" even though that just means "thinking/conscious/aware/experiencing".

Should psionic power be developed, gradually mastered, with very rare prodigies?
YES

Modern Artists over on Deviant art website, can have accounts dating back to BBS boards in the late 80's, the early days of the internet.
They can show you the progress of their skills over decades! the improvements can be astonishing.
Further, there was this documentary: https://youtu.be/tuam5GTHmt4
The healer states that he spent fifteen years learning to control his internal energy.

how is Psionics different from magical practice?
The psionicist goes within, internally for mental and spiritual exercise, psionic powers are "effortless effort"...

The Mage externally practices an "alien language/mathematics/legal system/bartering system" and how to make it "Go" with the right symbols and effort.
in role playing game terminology;
1. Creation. the creator had witnesses.
2. at least one witness was a traitor.
3. This traitor shared fragments from the "Song of creation" at a devastating cost.
4. Those who learned the fragments have no clue what they have, how it works, even what the symbols mean.
5. The various fragments have been hoarded by mages,
6. and the students no longer have to "make the bargain" to gain access to the fragments.
7. Mages only know that certain combinations do X, and struggle to unravel the fragment mysteries.
8. Arcane mages are like a "Script kiddie" with a dozen floppies of real hacker-made tools.
9. Casting a spell, is very loosely akin to "Opening a dos prompt" and running a script...

is magic real? of course not!
never mind that in the bible; pharaoh's magicians turned their staves into serpents, the witch of Endor summoned the spirit of Samuel the prophet for king Saul, or that the disciples were challenged to magic duels, one by a sorcerer who was LEVITATING...
Never mind odd bits of recorded history...
Never mind massive stone construction that we cannot duplicate today...
Never mind those scientific institutions and museums that seem to be covering up evidence for more strangeness than you or anyone could shake a stick at.
is Psionic ability real?
Professor Daryl Bem conducted a precognition experiment like this: the control group would be asked to take a spelling and dictionary meaning test.
So would the experiment group. The difference? The Experiment group would be allowed to read and study the ANSWERS after the test.
Every test used different words and different students.
This experiment went on for ten years. The result is that the control group always had a baseline score, while in the experiment group...
40% of those tested scored significantly higher! The cumulative weight of the meta-analysis was unbeatable. Here was scientific proof that SOME of us have some degree of Precognitive ability.

what did the NIH do? did they try to replicate the experiment? did they try to devise similar experiments? Did they follow the scientific method at all?

no. The NIH resorted to Ad Hom attacks, mockery and ridicule.  is there a cover up? occam's razor, says NO.

In light of the true story behind "The men who stare at goats" ...I am beginning to wonder.

Quote from: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 01:13:18 AM
Hello?
I know it has been a few months since this was posted, but I need to respond to this. One question, have any of you asked a real psychic about psionics?  do any of you have any personal experience with Psionics? Even one brief brush with the supernatural?
like all good writing, you need to do "RESEARCH", and you need to have "Experience" with the topic.
Why?
To make a really good book that conveys "WHAT" your topic is, what it feels like, what it means, how is it a part of the world.

1. The Sybil, an ancient Greek order of women-only psychics. The earliest record of the Sybil goes back 4,000 years ago.
The Sybil, would serve as the "Oracle of Delphi". 
2. Oneiroi. the ancient Greeks created beings who had god-like power, but were not gods. Oneiroi were gods of dreams.
There is a modern Greek society of "Dream explorers" that dates back centuries.
3. The Roma (Gypsies), the wandering folk is believed to have some measure of psychic ability. These people are not Egyptian, They are not Roman, They are people who fled Mongol hordes and found no shelter in the countries they fled to, and fled through. Some say they are the "west of india" people that Nazis called "Aryan".
4. Mesmer, a guy who sometimes hung out with Benjamin Franklin, the inventor of hypnosis, was said to also have "Mind powers".
5. Nostradamus, a physician who supposedly concealed the details of his precognitive dreams in cryptic poetry.
6. Grigori Rasputin, the mad monk. A Russian mystic who was said to have precognitive visions, healing powers, etc. before the fall of the Tzar.
His enemies tried to kill Rasputin a number of times; Stabbing, poison, strangling, hanging, shooting him, even tying the man up and tossing him in a freezing river to drown... He escaped the ropes and the icy river purportedly only to die of "Exposure" trying to enter a locked Palace building.

"Psionics" has some "peculiar" personages who may have had "mental powers" dating back centuries. The oldest mentions in western history could go back - to millennia before the beginning of the Egyptian dynasties. Signs of human civilization do not "Suddenly Start" only 5,000 years ago. Evidence from gobekli-tepe push the origins of civilization back 12,000 years, and other "rejected" archaeological discoveries point to numerous cataclysmic "bottlenecks" that wiped advanced human civilization from the earth many times! There are archaeological sites that date back to the Mt.Toba Super volcano eruption 65,000 to 70,000 years ago! One "Forbiden archaeology" site in Mexico dates back 120,000 years... a time when modern archaeology states there were no humans in the Americas.

None of your "factual claims" are backed by any shred of evidence, I always find it funny it's the Egyptians, Mayas, Stonhenge, etc that were built by aliens/ancient prehuman civilizations.

But as a source for a modern splatbook this is priceless, so thank you.

Quote from: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 02:59:36 AM
Should psionic power be developed, gradually mastered, with very rare prodigies?
YES

Modern Artists over on Deviant art website, can have accounts dating back to BBS boards in the late 80's, the early days of the internet.
They can show you the progress of their skills over decades! the improvements can be astonishing.
Further, there was this documentary: https://youtu.be/tuam5GTHmt4
The healer states that he spent fifteen years learning to control his internal energy.

how is Psionics different from magical practice?
The psionicist goes within, internally for mental and spiritual exercise, psionic powers are "effortless effort"...

The Mage externally practices an "alien language/mathematics/legal system/bartering system" and how to make it "Go" with the right symbols and effort.
in role playing game terminology;
1. Creation. the creator had witnesses.
2. at least one witness was a traitor.
3. This traitor shared fragments from the "Song of creation" at a devastating cost.
4. Those who learned the fragments have no clue what they have, how it works, even what the symbols mean.
5. The various fragments have been hoarded by mages,
6. and the students no longer have to "make the bargain" to gain access to the fragments.
7. Mages only know that certain combinations do X, and struggle to unravel the fragment mysteries.
8. Arcane mages are like a "Script kiddie" with a dozen floppies of real hacker-made tools.
9. Casting a spell, is very loosely akin to "Opening a dos prompt" and running a script...

Or, conversely, mages/wizards/witches call it what you might tap into the arcane background energy of the creation and the battles between the forces of good and evil. Said energy isn't easy to access much less control and not everyone can even feel it.

Over millenia humans born near sites where those energies bleed stronger into our world had a stronger link to it and learned to use it easier. Being born under the right circumntances might also have an effect, the stars aligned in the correct way if you will.

For some reason not ALL humans born near such power locci had the ebility to acces the power, but if the infant was born of two such individuals then it was guaranteed not only the access but the control over the power.

With time people noticed and witches married other witches only to have a stronger progeny.

Using the arcane energy isn't ever easy, it becomes easier due to certain things such as ancestry. But making pqcts with demons is one way to gaqin power, human sacrifice and blood rituals another. As such white witches are few and far between since black witches would use them as sacrifice to harvest even more power.

Quote from: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 03:55:08 AM
is magic real? of course not!
never mind that in the bible; pharaoh's magicians turned their staves into serpents, the witch of Endor summoned the spirit of Samuel the prophet for king Saul, or that the disciples were challenged to magic duels, one by a sorcerer who was LEVITATING...
Never mind odd bits of recorded history...
Never mind massive stone construction that we cannot duplicate today...
Never mind those scientific institutions and museums that seem to be covering up evidence for more strangeness than you or anyone could shake a stick at.
is Psionic ability real?
Professor Daryl Bem conducted a precognition experiment like this: the control group would be asked to take a spelling and dictionary meaning test.
So would the experiment group. The difference? The Experiment group would be allowed to read and study the ANSWERS after the test.
Every test used different words and different students.
This experiment went on for ten years. The result is that the control group always had a baseline score, while in the experiment group...
40% of those tested scored significantly higher! The cumulative weight of the meta-analysis was unbeatable. Here was scientific proof that SOME of us have some degree of Precognitive ability.

what did the NIH do? did they try to replicate the experiment? did they try to devise similar experiments? Did they follow the scientific method at all?

no. The NIH resorted to Ad Hom attacks, mockery and ridicule.  is there a cover up? occam's razor, says NO.

In light of the true story behind "The men who stare at goats" ...I am beginning to wonder.

Or what some call psionic ability IS magic.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 02, 2022, 01:49:52 PMOr what some call psionic ability IS magic.

if you know of Pathfinder 2E, you may know of the "Secrets of Magic" book. You may know that Pathfinder 2e acknowledges an underlying unknown as "the stuff of Magic", and has Four essences: Matter, mind, life, spirit, with unusual definitions (The Matter essence is like "Planck length" particles that can be any physical or energetic substance or force). A pair of essences tends to create a "Magical tradition".
Matter+mind= Arcane magic (wizards, sorcerers)
Matter+life= Primal magic (Druids, shamans, rune casters)
Life+spirit= Divine magic (clerics, priests, "champions" [paladins, liberators, redeemers])
Mind+spirit=Occult magic (psychics, bards, exorcists, ghost hunters)
the book makes no mention of Disputes between the traditions.
The book glosses over issues with spells that can do things the essences say they shouldn't (such as a divine caster summoning "Food and Drink" *clearly the province of Matter).
The book implies that there may be other combinations, as the "Four Essences" seem based in Ethereal mechanics...
While elementalists harness unknown essences via the Astral plane and its connection to the elemental planes: positive, negative, earth, water, fire, air, shadow, plant, dream, etc.

in the Pathfinder 2e paradigm, Psionics falls under the "Occult" tradition of magic, though in the real world this isn't a correct definition or description for psi.

Magic is external.
Spells are Script programs... a "Music" that sounds like an "industrial music" autohammer mashing a 1980's internet dial up modem connecting sound.
Psionics is internal.
Psionic powers are not "Concentration, belief, nor calculation"... it is "Focus" and "unconscious will". musically psionics is Single notes... not a song.

in White wolf Parlance...
MAGICK rips reality a new Arse'ole.
Psionics is a nudge, a "bump in the night", because we absolutely don't know anything absolutely... 
There is a difference if you "Know" what you are talking about.
a construction worker knows the difference and use of a; Claw hammer, roofing hammer, sheetrock hammer, ball-peen hammer, etc.
I do not.

I do know my personal experiences with PSI though...

It's seriously fun to see people actually talking gaming around here. Thank you both.

have you ever seen a BMX race track in person? have you ever rode a bicycle?
can you imagine the strength and endurance needed for a BMX race?

it seems almost magical...
but it boils down to just "Ridding a bike".
2,000 years from now; a BMX race track will be called a burial mound, obviously meant for religious purposes, just look at the archaeological context!

but all it really is, is just a bike track.

Do you know what an electron microscope is?
how about an atomic scanning microscope?
what about an "Atomic force microscope"?

what if I told you that somewhere in America,
there are scientists building computers, one atom at a time
What if these scientists applied advances in printers to Atomic construction?
"precast keys" of molecular electronics, arrayed on a printing press, or a manual "Type writer", or a daisy wheel printer, or an ink jet printer...
ultimately learning to "print" electronics with individual atoms in a fashion akin to a "Laser printer"...

Can you imagine the world's most powerful super computer Ever existing as a nanoscopic speck measured in miniscule fractions of a nanometer?

Now, 75,000 years after Yellowstone supervolcano erases the USA...  you are an archaeologist. You find a really odd rock.
what you don't know is that it used to be part of a "human sized" form-factor for a computer so small your modern technology might never find it!
How would you find advanced technology like that... 120,000 years after that civilization was wiped out by the yellowstone erruption...
would you say "Not one shred of evidence" and throw the rock away? yeah. you would. because it would violate your belief that your civilization is the only civilization that developed technology.

asking you to have an open mind, is not asking you to shoot a hole in your head.

Quote from: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 03:00:13 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 02, 2022, 01:49:52 PMOr what some call psionic ability IS magic.

if you know of Pathfinder 2E, you may know of the "Secrets of Magic" book. You may know that Pathfinder 2e acknowledges an underlying unknown as "the stuff of Magic", and has Four essences: Matter, mind, life, spirit, with unusual definitions (The Matter essence is like "Planck length" particles that can be any physical or energetic substance or force). A pair of essences tends to create a "Magical tradition".
Matter+mind= Arcane magic (wizards, sorcerers)
Matter+life= Primal magic (Druids, shamans, rune casters)
Life+spirit= Divine magic (clerics, priests, "champions" [paladins, liberators, redeemers])
Mind+spirit=Occult magic (psychics, bards, exorcists, ghost hunters)
the book makes no mention of Disputes between the traditions.
The book glosses over issues with spells that can do things the essences say they shouldn't (such as a divine caster summoning "Food and Drink" *clearly the province of Matter).
The book implies that there may be other combinations, as the "Four Essences" seem based in Ethereal mechanics...
While elementalists harness unknown essences via the Astral plane and its connection to the elemental planes: positive, negative, earth, water, fire, air, shadow, plant, dream, etc.

in the Pathfinder 2e paradigm, Psionics falls under the "Occult" tradition of magic, though in the real world this isn't a correct definition or description for psi.

Magic is external.
Spells are Script programs... a "Music" that sounds like an "industrial music" autohammer mashing a 1980's internet dial up modem connecting sound.
Psionics is internal.
Psionic powers are not "Concentration, belief, nor calculation"... it is "Focus" and "unconscious will". musically psionics is Single notes... not a song.

in White wolf Parlance...
MAGICK rips reality a new Arse'ole.
Psionics is a nudge, a "bump in the night", because we absolutely don't know anything absolutely... 
There is a difference if you "Know" what you are talking about.
a construction worker knows the difference and use of a; Claw hammer, roofing hammer, sheetrock hammer, ball-peen hammer, etc.
I do not.

I do know my personal experiences with PSI though...

I don't own PF2e, and also I want a different take on psionics, to do it "My Way" if you wish.

Part of that is that in-game psionics has no overlap with magic beyond maybe being able to achieve the same result/effect but it works in a totally different way.

The first use will be in a game with no magic, but, IF I manage to pull it off, I will use it in games with magic.

I'm also not aiming to make it like people who believe in PSI IRL think it works, I'm aiming for the rule of cool:

If it's cool it's good.

My current problem is in determining the mechanics without making it D&D spells with a thin coat of paint. Think I have made some progress but will need to clean some stuff before I'm ready to show it to people to get some input.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 02, 2022, 03:14:35 PM
It's seriously fun to see people actually talking gaming around here. Thank you both.

I often do, not long ago I posted a pulp class and other stuff, you just are more interested in arguing with the other team.

Quote from: PSIandCO on May 02, 2022, 03:23:03 PM
have you ever seen a BMX race track in person? have you ever rode a bicycle?
can you imagine the strength and endurance needed for a BMX race?

it seems almost magical...
but it boils down to just "Ridding a bike".
2,000 years from now; a BMX race track will be called a burial mound, obviously meant for religious purposes, just look at the archaeological context!

but all it really is, is just a bike track.

Do you know what an electron microscope is?
how about an atomic scanning microscope?
what about an "Atomic force microscope"?

what if I told you that somewhere in America,
there are scientists building computers, one atom at a time
What if these scientists applied advances in printers to Atomic construction?
"precast keys" of molecular electronics, arrayed on a printing press, or a manual "Type writer", or a daisy wheel printer, or an ink jet printer...
ultimately learning to "print" electronics with individual atoms in a fashion akin to a "Laser printer"...

Can you imagine the world's most powerful super computer Ever existing as a nanoscopic speck measured in miniscule fractions of a nanometer?

Now, 75,000 years after Yellowstone supervolcano erases the USA...  you are an archaeologist. You find a really odd rock.
what you don't know is that it used to be part of a "human sized" form-factor for a computer so small your modern technology might never find it!
How would you find advanced technology like that... 120,000 years after that civilization was wiped out by the yellowstone erruption...
would you say "Not one shred of evidence" and throw the rock away? yeah. you would. because it would violate your belief that your civilization is the only civilization that developed technology.

asking you to have an open mind, is not asking you to shoot a hole in your head.

I can imagine lots of stuff, doesn't make it true.

There's exactly zero scientific evidence of a pre-human civilization building the pyramids of Egyp like there's exactly zero evidence of Aliens doing it.

I do love me some conspiracy theories but there's some stuff too out there for even me to believe.

But since that's not a gaming related topic Why don't you create a thread in Pundit's forum so we can argue over it without violating the forum's rules?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 02, 2022, 03:47:27 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 02, 2022, 03:14:35 PM
It's seriously fun to see people actually talking gaming around here. Thank you both.

I often do, not long ago I posted a pulp class and other stuff, you just are more interested in arguing with the other team.

I don't see teams on the gaming part of the forum, unless the conversation is going way off.

In this case, I find the pseudo-science talk interesting for something like a Dark Matter (Alternity) type of game.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 02, 2022, 03:54:56 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 02, 2022, 03:47:27 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 02, 2022, 03:14:35 PM
It's seriously fun to see people actually talking gaming around here. Thank you both.

I often do, not long ago I posted a pulp class and other stuff, you just are more interested in arguing with the other team.

I don't see teams on the gaming part of the forum, unless the conversation is going way off.

In this case, I find the pseudo-science talk interesting for something like a Dark Matter (Alternity) type of game.

I do agree 100% that stuff is just perfect for my monster hunter game.