Quote from: oggsmash;1137416All this is simply Critical theory now coming to games.  It has jack to do with offensive, because the whole point of critical theory is to find offensive in any existing structure, period.

I doubt many of these kids have read let alone understood Horkeimer or Adorno. Marcuse, whose closet Stalinism Horkeimer and Adorno detested, would be a more accurate frame of reference.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1137377Daniel Kwan and the others who did the video of Oriental Adventures have moved on to Al Qadim.  They put up a poll of what games to do next and the list was made up of...
Kindred of the East
L5R
Rifts:China/Mythic China
Feng Shui

L5R had the highest votes on the poll, so expect that to follow Al Qadim I guess.

Thanks for the info. And so it begins...

In all honesty, I've no real problems with these cretins criticizing games. It being a free country and all... But when their actions impede on others, I take exception. I think a much better, and constructive approach is, 'moving on'. So, point out the foibles of a 30+ year old book if you want, but to have it stricken or banned from the history of the game is utterly barmy.

Quote from: jhkim;1137420Why not both?

But seriously, that's cool about Zeb Cook. Again, I support Oriental Adventures remaining in print, and I don't think the authors should be called out as bigots. At the same time, that doesn't mean that I can't criticize OA and the choices they made.

Sometimes the venom of these criticisms forget that these books are written by real people who clearly meant no harm are still with us but there are definitely some on social media for whom the cruelty is part of the point. I would suspect Cook would even agree with some of the criticism if it wasn't framed with such hostility.

Quote from: Rhiannon;1137421I doubt many of these kids have read let alone understood Horkeimer or Adorno. Marcuse, whose closet Stalinism Horkeimer and Adorno detested, would be a more accurate frame of reference.

  But they have been given the watered down version that is all over college campuses and is all over various sociology classes

Quote from: Lynn;1137409So much of the argumentation by these particular SJWs seems to derive from their sense of ownership over history and historic material, and that individuals with a race or ethnic or familial history somehow 'own' it and can deny others use or even comment of it. It fits very neatly into the same cluster of SJW nonsense like cultural appropriation (invented ownership), an obsession primarily of -Americans.

The truth is Asia and Europe are both parts of the same continent, it is a single landmass, the border between, the Ural Mountains is an arbitrary demarcation line. The continents Europe and Asia are really much more defined by what the people look like who live there rather than any geological feature. China is on the same continent as France!

Quote from: EOTB;1137321Look - they can't take gaming away from you.  The OGL saw to that.  But each of you will have to decide which is more important to you; being a gamer in the mainstream, and comfort, or the alternative.

They cant take gaming away from you... yet. And the OGL saw to nothing. If anything its allowed them a point of entry which they have been using and will continue to use till they control that as well. And failing that control any major platform so you cant do anything with it even if you wanted to.

At the rate they are going we will probably see faked news that Gygax raped ten girls a day at every con he went to. Then a bunch of witnesses and more "victims" come fourth to tell their sad tale of being raped by Gary.

We are fighting tooth and nail because the alternative is a new dark age for gaming that will make the damage the Forge, Swine and Storygamers did look tame by comparison.

Quote from: The Exploited.;1137365I mean, if Lovecraft produced such a book (hypothetically) then you could say that it was intentionally racist. Given his background, but you can't apply the same intent of the author(s).

...or if you're Asshat (oops, EvilHat) games, you scream about his racism, and then profit from his name.

That said, I always try to look at intent.  That guy that cut in front of me on the way to work wasn't trying to make me annoyed, he was trying to get somewhere faster.

The writers intent?  Likely "Let's have a D&D game that's like a cool Kung-Fu movie"
The guys calling for a ban?  "Let's get some outrage clicks"

Quote from: oggsmash;1137424But they have been given the watered down version that is all over college campuses and is all over various sociology classes

True enough.

Quote from: Omega;1137428They cant take gaming away from you... yet. And the OGL saw to nothing. If anything its allowed them a point of entry which they have been using and will continue to use till they control that as well. And failing that control any major platform so you cant do anything with it even if you wanted to.

At the rate they are going we will probably see faked news that Gygax raped ten girls a day at every con he went to. Then a bunch of witnesses and more "victims" come fourth to tell their sad tale of being raped by Gary.

We are fighting tooth and nail because the alternative is a new dark age for gaming that will make the damage the Forge, Swine and Storygamers did look tame by comparison.

The OGL is irrevocable.  It only means nothing if your interest is limited to traditional publishers making material you as a fan can use to do fan-things

How are you fighting?  What are your tactics, exactly?  Is what's happening here fighting?  I'm not saying this sort of discussion has no value, but this isn't "fighting".  It's pleading, amongst the choir.  

Was a campaign formed to apply counter-pressure to DTRPG when I wasn't looking?  How many people have pledged to forfeit their vast DTRPG PDF libraries as an irrevocable statement of scorched earth should they wobble here?  What I see is self-negotiation of "well, if I've already bought it, the ban won't affect me personally because they don't yank it out of my library!"

Of course they don't - the point is to achieve the forward goal while minimizing present backlash

Look - the point isn't how this stage was arrived at or chastising anyone.  I'm saying I don't think people are grasping what a culture war fought in detail looks like; the inexorable, methodical tactics used, and why precisely zero people on the other side are sweating their opposition; as they secure allies who own assets while the other side methodically documents their "hypocrisies".  In a negotiation, the person unwilling to walk away from the table gets nearly nothing.  And they know that a lot of their opposition is emotionally leveraged into this hobby.  Or NASCR.  Or other sports leagues.  Or whatever.  And that you'll keep coming back unless prevented.

They don't want to boot you yet.. That doesn't happen until you think everyone who'll adopt has done so.  Until then you want everyone to keep coming back to the trough for their struggle session.  You get to 53% one person at a time.  Separating they wheat from the tares is postscript.

But yes, the OA PDFs already purchased on DTRPG are likely safe.

Quote from: EOTB;1137436The OGL is irrevocable.

That's not how Marxism works...

Quote from: Rhiannon;1137423Sometimes the venom of these criticisms forget that these books are written by real people who clearly meant no harm are still with us but there are definitely some on social media for whom the cruelty is part of the point. I would suspect Cook would even agree with some of the criticism if it wasn't framed with such hostility.

Based on my pasts interactions with these type of people they don't care about intent, they care about perceived harm. If you said something that is now deemed "offensive" towards "marginalized peoples" at any point in your life, in whatever context it might have been, it was harmful. Period. End of discussion. Just accept it, "fix" it, do whatever they tell you, let them walk all over you and move on with your life.

There is no "context". There is no "intent", other than the one they ascribe to you. There is only "marginalized people of colour" and things that are objectively "harmful" to them regardless of historical context and you should have known better. Just like slavery was always objectively bad and free people who lived during slavery should have done something about (regardless of whether they had the means to do it or not) and the fact that they didn't makes them complicit in it and beneficiaries of slavery.

That is the level of reason we're dealing with here, and that is the reason no book, past or present, RPG or literature, is safe from their unshakable judgement and wrath. These people DO. NOT. CARE.

Quote from: Brad;1137438That's not how Marxism works...

If we reach a day 0 of that magnitude, gaming under a legal umbrella isn't on the front page of concerns and every second spent here now was worse than wasted.

Not pooh-poohing black swans - nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, etc., but perspective

Quote from: Rhiannon;1137390Where did you get that information? The podcast hosts are Daniel Kwan and Steve Dee, neither of them are involved with Honey and Hot Wax from what I can see in the credits here. Clio Yun-Su Davis appears to be the only person of east asian descent listed, at best perhaps she was a guest on the podcast?

Ah, the famous Davis clan.  Well known East Asian lineage.

Quote from: EOTB;1137446If we reach a day 0 of that magnitude, gaming under a legal umbrella isn't on the front page of concerns and every second spent here now was worse than wasted.

Not pooh-poohing black swans - nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, etc., but perspective

I disagree. From the knitting community, to the gaming community and many points in-between, people are talking about it. The vector for starting the discussion is the small hobbies that have been encroached upon. They make the issues personal and tangible and immediate.

My quoted response was limited to a scenario where previous law was declared null and void.  Not today's reality