Quote from: RPGPundit;1137289Oriental Adventures is based on silly stereotypes from movies.

Again. How the hell is it a stereotype when a movie is made by asians about their own fantasys, legends and history?

Quote from: EOTB;1137321Look - they can't take gaming away from you.  The OGL saw to that.

And people wonder why I am so focused about the use of digital technology, open content and open licenses. Remove the levers of control and it doesn't matter who says what about anything.

Quote from: EOTB;1137321But each of you will have to decide which is more important to you; being a gamer in the mainstream, and comfort, or the alternative.

Yup, supporting older editions was never the popular choice by any measure. As most publishers who offer current edition edition material and older edition material will tell you the newer editions always sell more.

As for the larger issue, I long resigned that the older edition material exist for sale at the whim of a corporate entity, Hasbro, with it own agenda. That it can be pulled for any number of stupid and idiotic reasons. For example when Wizards pulled all PDFs circa 2010 because of "piracy" only to put them all back up a few years later. But no current editions material because we have to monetize that stuff over and over again.

Quote from: Omega;1137338Again. How the hell is it a stereotype when a movie is made by asians about their own fantasys, legends and history?

I think Pundit is thinking about how it also draws on western media depictions like Shogun and many of the movies that came out of the ninja craze (there were plenty of Chinese and Japanese movies about Ninja, but lots of American films too).

Quote from: Brad;1137175This is the attitude that allows these retards to get their way. I know you think you're morally superior for not allowing yourself to be bothered with such trivialities, but pretty soon they'll be dragging you out of your house and burning your copies of OA. It'll happen.

The reason why they are getting their way is because the left controls most social media platforms and news outlets.  

They turn a blind eye to all the lies the extreme leftist goons spew while deleting posts or banning those with opposing points of view. Or even worse, if you made enough noise to become a noticeable blip on the SJW's radar, they coordinate a virtual mob to harass your employer until you lose your job.

Most RPG traffic goes to Reddit, Twitter, EnWorld, Purple etc... How do you suppose people show their support for another viewpoint when they immediately get silenced? There are small pockets, like this site, where people can voice opposing opinions - but these pockets are largely fringe and don't carry the same weight in the eyes of the likes of WotC, Paizo etc... and easily get ignored.

Quote from: jhkim;1137274I've said that before, and I still mean it. I disagree with the article calling for OA to be taken off sales. There are a lot of other liberals who disagree too.

I think most liberals our age disagree with calls to remove, stop selling or destroy art/literature/games/movies/etc (I am assuming we are roughly the same age).

My view on this game is it is largely a product of its time. There wasn't as much easy to access information when it was made, and anyone who grew up before the internet, understands how easy it was to get crucial details wrong. I think there is a difference though between being inaccurate, mixing up concepts and being racist. I don't think OA is racist, I do think it uses a lot of outdated language, that if used today, would be done differently, and I do think it has moments that can be a little cringey. I still think the context when something was made matters. And I think the intentions matter (and the intentions of OA never seemed racist to me, just enthusiastic and based on certain kinds of media). I watched pretty much all the videos of the read-through of OA, and some of their criticisms were sound, some of them felt like a very big reach to me. I have no problem with someone seeing something they dislike in a book and talking about it, or trying to persuade people that they should feel the same. Two big things about it is the videos rely heavily on Edward Said's orientalism as a framework. And I think there is a lot of room to debate whether that is a solid foundation. And in some instances the way they apply orientalism, is a little off to me.

For me the two biggest issues I have with this is 1) the call to remove the book (I consider that a form of censorship) and 2) the notion that you have to accept assumptions of the criticisms going in (for instance, Said's ideas) and that you have to accept the criticisms as well. I think there needs to be more room for people to disagree about these things.

All that said, I have used both books pretty extensively. I ran multiple 3rd edition campaigns using the 3E OA book, and we still kept OA as part of our 2E campaigns back in the 90s. I also used both, along with all kinds of other games, to cobble together D&D wuxia campaigns. I do think the mixing and matching of different cultures in the books was annoying, when you were trying to focus on one particular genre or culture like that. On the other hand, growing up in the 80s, I understand why it was mixed (and it isn't terribly different from how Ravenloft or Forgotten Realms mixing up all kinds of European Cultures----it is sort of what D&D does).

Both books actually have a lot of interesting mechanical stuff to draw on. I certainly didn't use all of the OA material for 3E (some of it is great, some of it didn't fit what I was going for). But even if a lot of the flavor did feel off, the mechanics were pretty useful for getting wuxia stuff in the mix (I did have to draw from lots of other books to get what I was going for in the end though).

Also, the first edition book is actually pretty good in my opinion when you consider the time it came out. The third edition version is actually way more cringey than the 1st (personally I have always found WOTC material to be more cringey in general than TSR material). I don't think cringey means something needs to be taken down though. And there should be room for people to have different reactions. Something that bothers me, might not bother someone else. I can't force someone to have my reaction to a book, nor can I demand they take issue with things I take issue with. And I think that is what has been getting lost in these discussions.

Will they go after something like Feng Shuie next? Or are they just going for larger companies like WotC (or white wolf) because they will always bend the knee? Basically, where does this censorship actually end?

It seems bizarre to go after a product like OA as it was a product of it's time, and has nothing to do with the more recent lines of D&D. It's just part of the histrionics of their portfolio.

I also think that the 'intention' behind a product is very important. I mean, if Lovecraft produced such a book (hypothetically) then you could say that it was intentionally racist. Given his background, but you can't apply the same intent of the author(s).

Quote from: Tom Kalbfus;1137204Copyrights are to encourage the writing and printing of books, not surpress them. If the owner does not use his copyright over a certain period of time, then copyright law is not serving the purpose of encouraging the free flow of information, then there should be a law where the copyright owner loses his copyright. This is comparable to a broadcaster that owns the right to broadcast on a certain frequency but does not use it in order to surpress competing radio stations.

This is brilliant.

Quote from: estar;1137211The purpose of copyright is to encourage the creation of creative arts by giving creators the exclusive right over how copies are made and distributed. For more this is a mean of profiting from one's own creative efforts.

Hm, then this case seems to be a clear violation of that intent, since WoTC is not the creator of this content in any sense of the word.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1137362For me the two biggest issues I have with this is 1) the call to remove the book (I consider that a form of censorship) and 2) the notion that you have to accept assumptions of the criticisms going in (for instance, Said's ideas) and that you have to accept the criticisms as well. I think there needs to be more room for people to disagree about these things.

Even though I don't use it, I'm against removing the book for any perceived "wrongs" as it is censorship and "thought control" neither of which I have any use for whatsoever... Just because I don't want to use it for any of my games, doesn't mean other people should not have it available for their games, should they so choose. That's what America is all about Freedom of Choice. Of course there are people that want to choose for you. Don't let them.

That said, I do have an Oriental Themed D&D campaign world, and most of what I have poached for that comes from early Dragon magazine articles, and homebrew stuff that I have written up, based on movies that have inspired me. So long as my players like it, ...who cares!

Also, pretty sure I would enjoy sitting in on a game or mini-campaign in your OA campaign setting. Say... didn't you write your own campaign supplement or book for the OSR?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1137357I think Pundit is thinking about how it also draws on western media depictions like Shogun and many of the movies that came out of the ninja craze (there were plenty of Chinese and Japanese movies about Ninja, but lots of American films too).

The Shaw brothers are not American.   Kurasawa is not American.  Their stereotypes are WAY over the top compared to what is presented in American Media.  Though I agree with the sentiment.  It just makes me laugh that the dudes criticizing the OA, would also certainly condemn the movies made by the Shaw brothers as well as Kurasawa movies.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1137372Also, pretty sure I would enjoy sitting in on a game or mini-campaign in your OA campaign setting. Say... didn't you write your own campaign supplement or book for the OSR?

The only OSR book we've put out is Arrows of Indra (which RPGPundit wrote). I have some of my own wuxia material out there, but it isn't OSR----nor is it D&D based-----it uses dice pools! (though a lot of my approaches to things like adventure design and world building are more on the OSR side of the spectrum).

Quote from: oggsmash;1137373The Shaw brothers are not American.   Kurasawa is not American.  Their stereotypes are WAY over the top compared to what is presented in American Media.

That is a whole other discussion, which I would be more than happy to have as I adore Shaw Brothers movies (if your point is a lot of Shaw Brothers movies feature heavy stereotyping of Japanese characters and Thai characters, and the action is often over the top, I wouldn't disagree). Personally I think the over-the-top action and story-lines are part of the draw. But my point was simply that I think Pundit had western media in mind when he said that (perhaps I am incorrect about his meaning though).

Quote from: The Exploited.;1137365Will they go after something like Feng Shuie next? Or are they just going for larger companies like WotC (or white wolf) because they will always bend the knee? Basically, where does this censorship actually end?

It seems bizarre to go after a product like OA as it was a product of it's time, and has nothing to do with the more recent lines of D&D. It's just part of the histrionics of their portfolio.

I also think that the 'intention' behind a product is very important. I mean, if Lovecraft produced such a book (hypothetically) then you could say that it was intentionally racist. Given his background, but you can't apply the same intent of the author(s).

Daniel Kwan and the others who did the video of Oriental Adventures have moved on to Al Qadim.  They put up a poll of what games to do next and the list was made up of...
Kindred of the East
L5R
Rifts:China/Mythic China
Feng Shui

L5R had the highest votes on the poll, so expect that to follow Al Qadim I guess.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1137377Daniel Kwan and the others who did the video of Oriental Adventures have moved on to Al Qadim.  

   I generally don't listen to podcasts. What are they saying about Al-Qadim?

Quote from: GameDaddy;1137372Also, pretty sure I would enjoy sitting in on a game or mini-campaign in your OA campaign setting. Say.

I think the last time I ran an actual OA campaign (using the books and D&D) was in 2013 maybe. I probably still have my campaign notes somewhere. I remember that one drawing a lot off of Come Drink With Me and Temple of the Red Lotus. If I recall it started as a sandbox with a Come Drink With Me/Red Lotus scenario as the starting point and everything expanded from there (basically a temple was taken over by bandits who were using it as a foundation for their criminal empire). If I can track down that campaign binder I will post them.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1137377Daniel Kwan and the others who did the video of Oriental Adventures have moved on to Al Qadim.  They put up a poll of what games to do next and the list was made up of...
Kindred of the East
L5R
Rifts:China/Mythic China
Feng Shui

L5R had the highest votes on the poll, so expect that to follow Al Qadim I guess.

Link please.