Well with their 1.2 non-announcement - I don't see any particular gaming studios budging from their course. I *do* see a lot of players and GM and online streaming folks vocally disavowing WotC (at least for now).
I also have heard that other d20 (OSR) games are gaining a lot of interest. I'd love to know if any local designers here are seeing any traction?
For non-d20 systems, I've seen Free League is jumping all over this, and promoting the hell out of their system and settings and their upcoming Open Gaming license. I know Pinnacle Games, already has their own licensing program and their books are flying off the shelves, in fact their core print books are now temporarily out of stock, and Savage Rifts boxset just went out of stock temporarily. I've heard from local retailer that Blades in the Dark has had a large uptick in sales and interest too.
Anyone else following other lines hear/see anything like this?
We are also a vocal minority. I'm betting the majority of D&D 5E players will just keep on playing.
I'm not playing D&D, but that's because I don't like the rules. I never disliked the companies that wrote the rules. To me it's about game rules that are easy to play, but logical.
Hit points that skyrocket is weird. Savings throws for specific attacks is weird. Vancian magic amnesia is weird.
Give me games that don't do that. Palladium Fantasy. Dragon Warriors (hardback book is on the way), Shadow of the Demon Lord. Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool or the D20 red book. Tiny D6 series for ease of play and variety of settings to rival Palladium Books. Those are my games. Even Mini-six Bare Bones, with the old OGL in the back for no reason (hoping the 2nd Edition is still on track and switches to some other copyright).
Those are the games I recommend right now.
So, I'm good right now, but I'm hardly typical.
The only info I'm interested in is how the revenue and sales numbers of other RPGs have changed.
I bet a lot of folks have gone ahead, and purchased print copies of 3rd party books that have been on their wish lists for a while. I just recently purchased a couple of large 3rd party adventures, which had been on my wish list for a long time. Both were printed with 5E stats. I barely got to review them, before this OGL debacle started. Oh well....
I already own 5e, and i already own a pile of stuff for 5E. It's not like I'm going to dump it, but I sure don't want to give "more" money to WOTC. They are anathema to me, from here on out.
I hope the 3rd party publishers are able to persevere, and prosper.
Most of the YouTubers I follow whose focus was 5e are featuring or openly moving to alternatives.
What they each chose has been interesting. One big surprise was Dungeon Masterpiece declaring Index Card RPG the best alternative to get D&D feel both for playing and writing content for sale.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 19, 2023, 07:16:47 PM
We are also a vocal minority. I'm betting the majority of D&D 5E players will just keep on playing.
I agree, but keeping playing 5e is one thing. Continuing to play official D&D when it moves to 6e is another.
How that split goes is what I'm interested in seeing.
Troll Lord has seen a huge influx of folks on their forums, as well as orders, in the last week. They had a bit of an order backlog, too.
Anecdotal, but I've seen an increase online in the past week on people asking about Mythras and Worlds Withoit Number (no idea if that's translated any further, though).
Quote from: PulpHerb on January 19, 2023, 09:07:00 PM
Most of the YouTubers I follow whose focus was 5e are featuring or openly moving to alternatives.
What they each chose has been interesting. One big surprise was Dungeon Masterpiece declaring Index Card RPG the best alternative to get D&D feel both for playing and writing content for sale.
Feel free to share. I'd really like to support creators who are trying out new RPGs.
I actually had a co-worker mention this to me. He didn't 100% understand it, but he knew about it.
Given most OSR games rely on the SRD, I don't think it's any great salvation for it., especially as if they try to move away from the SRD and use weird terms and monsters and such, it basically becomes one of a million fantasy heartbreakers that tried to out do D&D but didn't and lose the interoperability of OSR products with each other.
The OSR will be fine.
All the OSR titles becoming "fantasy heartbreakers" will still be 90% (or more) compatible with each other and TSR era D&D which is all the OSR fandom really cares about.
Those in the OSR who demand 100% compatibility with their fav D&D edition were never an audience for 3PP stuff anyway, even back in the day.
Also, I'm not buying the OGL 1.0 panic. My bet is WotC only cares about 5e/6e and isn't going to chase down legacy edition "offenders" who aren't trying creating 5e/6e content because WotC doesn't value their legacy fans. That attitude will only increase once they make the jump from a tabletop RPG to a VTT / online game.
Among my group of players & GMs (about 25 people), the most common view is that we'll keep playing 5e, but will spend more time with other games. Some people are moving to other games for their GMing, one who only plays online is moving to Basic Fantasy, she was also thinking of C&C, but BFRPG being reliably free in pdf is a big advantage.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 19, 2023, 07:16:47 PM
We are also a vocal minority. I'm betting the majority of D&D 5E players will just keep on playing.
But perhaps a large enough minority, and a growing minority, that can sustain an industry without D&D.
Great question. I'd be very interested to see if the boosted interest is somewhat sustained or just a momentary pop, almost like a seasonal event.
I always go back to the relatively micro-sized footprint this hobby has coupled with GMs being the main source of income.
Still playing 5E is one thing. You've already bought the books, and burning them may be therapeutic but it's pointless.
Now, if they've dropped their Beyond account and have no plans to pick up 6E, that's another story.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 20, 2023, 08:13:51 AM
Still playing 5E is one thing. You've already bought the books, and burning them may be therapeutic but it's pointless.
Now, if they've dropped their Beyond account and have no plans to pick up 6E, that's another story.
Anecdotally, the one 5e group I'm aware of intends to keep playing 5e from their books, but every member canceled their DnDBeyond subscriptions (only about half the table even had one, but now none do).
The OGL debacle didn't convince me to try new systems, but did convince my wife and daughters to branch out. That was a nice side-effect for me, as I don't want to be just a collector of non-D&D systems.
Ordered SWADE core last week, might have gotten the last copy or might have missed it, as the label has been printed but it hasn't shipped yet. Already had C&C core books (loaned out to my best friend and DM), but will pick up new editions (or printings, but I hope they go with editions to further differentiate that they're changing to remove OGL stuff) when released. Looking at other systems, too, for one-shots or just for a fun diversion from long campaigns.
Honestly? It's starting to feel a bit like the 90s, with a plethora of different systems, worlds, and publishers, and D&D still big but not the sole big name. I love it.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 20, 2023, 08:13:51 AM
Still playing 5E is one thing. You've already bought the books, and burning them may be therapeutic but it's pointless.
Now, if they've dropped their Beyond account and have no plans to pick up 6E, that's another story.
Yeah. I have an ongoing 5E campaign, with a setting developed for 5E. I don't feel any need to quit these. I'm just not buying any more Wizards material and encouraging others to do the same. I never had a D&DBeyond account, but if I did, I'd drop it.
In general, dealing with greedy corporations has always been a necessary evil. Outside of RPGs, most of the stuff I use in my life are made by greedy corporations - car, electronics, food, etc. That's not purely evil - maximizing profit motivates them to keep costs down. Corporate behavior has to pass a certain threshold to get me to boycott. When I do boycott, I try to make it targeted, and clearly communicate what the boycott is for.
I'm seeing two anecdotal things that surprise me:
- Usually, all I hear about is stuff that directly pertains to my gaming group, and occasionally what a player is doing in another group. Now, I'm hearing third, fourth, or greater degree removed plans to explore other games as a direct result of WotC's behavior.
- Multiple times, I've had someone who isn't a TTRPG gamer at all get involved in the discussion--already aware of the basics of the issue. It's been at least 25 years since I've had even one comparable discussion about anything TTRPG-related.
Quote from: jhkim on January 20, 2023, 12:18:38 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 20, 2023, 08:13:51 AM
Still playing 5E is one thing. You've already bought the books, and burning them may be therapeutic but it's pointless.
Now, if they've dropped their Beyond account and have no plans to pick up 6E, that's another story.
Yeah. I have an ongoing 5E campaign, with a setting developed for 5E. I don't feel any need to quit these. I'm just not buying any more Wizards material and encouraging others to do the same. I never had a D&DBeyond account, but if I did, I'd drop it.
In general, dealing with greedy corporations has always been a necessary evil. Outside of RPGs, most of the stuff I use in my life are made by greedy corporations - car, electronics, food, etc. That's not purely evil - maximizing profit motivates them to keep costs down. Corporate behavior has to pass a certain threshold to get me to boycott. When I do boycott, I try to make it targeted, and clearly communicate what the boycott is for.
D&D 5E has simple and quickly understandable Stat Blocks, for everything. It's quicker and easier for me to convert from 5E, to the super simple way I play D&D; than it is for me to convert from Pathfinder 1st Edition, which I also have a huge pile of books for. I use Pathfinder to fill in any gaps, and supplement what I have for 5E. So many dang monsters to choose from. And occasionally; I find myself looking through the 4th Edition books, too. Especially Dark Sun.
A little over 6 years ago, I felt a strong urge to collect a bookcase full of print content for D&D. I probably didn't buy what others would have; but I have a lot to read through and draw from, at least.
Okay, this one is interesting.
I had a search that linked to TBP. I decided to check it out and all the virtual signalling about BLM, anti-AA violence, etc is gone. It's been replaced with a big long one about the OGL and "we stand with creators".
Wizards screwed up enough to get TBP to temporarily quit virtue signalling.
I asked my regular gaming group about it last week, and everyone agreed that we don't want to touch D&D again, and we have enough games we can play that we'll never run out.
I'm personally very curious to see how Mythras/Runequest does as well as Free League. But I'm very curious about our fellow Mos Eisleyans here that publish and design.
Quote from: PulpHerb on January 20, 2023, 07:25:11 PM
Okay, this one is interesting.
I had a search that linked to TBP. I decided to check it out and all the virtual signalling about BLM, anti-AA violence, etc is gone. It's been replaced with a big long one about the OGL and "we stand with creators".
Wizards screwed up enough to get TBP to temporarily quit virtue signalling.
this shocks me
Quote from: tenbones on January 20, 2023, 09:18:35 PM
Quote from: PulpHerb on January 20, 2023, 07:25:11 PM
Okay, this one is interesting.
I had a search that linked to TBP. I decided to check it out and all the virtual signalling about BLM, anti-AA violence, etc is gone. It's been replaced with a big long one about the OGL and "we stand with creators".
Wizards screwed up enough to get TBP to temporarily quit virtue signalling.
this shocks me
That's OK. Our own local SJWs are busy virtue signaling here.
https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/acting-in-your-local-community/
Meanwhile in Europe...
...another side-effect of the OGL crisis:
"Three European roleplaying studios have formed a new union as part of the ongoing fallout from D&D's industry-shaking OGL plans.
The founding members of the European RPG Studios Union are Studio Agate, the French team behind decorated gothic RPG Shadows of Esteren and 5E-powered sword-and-sorcery game Fateforge; German publisher Uhrwerk Verlag, known for fantasy RPGs Splittermond and Malmsturm; and Italian company Acheron Games, maker of alt-history RPG Lex Arcana, the 'spaghetti fantasy' Brancalonia and Inferno, which adapts the Hell of Dante's Divine Comedy for D&D 5E.
In a joint statement, the ESU said that it would work to promote roleplaying games and advocate for the recognition of tabletop RPGs "as a genre of literature and form of art before national and European institutions", as well as serving to protect creators in the tabletop industry.
The ESU told Dicebreaker these efforts will include a push to enable eligibility for government subsidies like those offered to book, film and video game companies, and to promote academic study of RPGs and roleplaying design courses within schools and universities.
"We believe that roleplaying games are one of the most modern and relevant media to create interpersonal bonds. They are a tool to develop soft skills for the players," it said.
"Their distribution and practice needs to be encouraged, taught and supported by institutions just as for other artistic media such as movies, music and video games.""
You can find the full article here: https://www.dicebreaker.com/categories/roleplaying-game/news/european-rpg-studios-union-forms-dnd-ogl-storm
Quote from: Rhymer88The founding members of the European RPG Studios Union are Studio Agate, the French team behind decorated gothic RPG Shadows of Esteren and 5E-powered sword-and-sorcery game Fateforge; German publisher Uhrwerk Verlag, known for fantasy RPGs Splittermond and Malmsturm; and Italian company Acheron Games, maker of alt-history RPG Lex Arcana, the 'spaghetti fantasy' Brancalonia and Inferno, which adapts the Hell of Dante's Divine Comedy for D&D 5E.
Wow! I've never heard of these games. Are any translated into English? Would you recommend any of them? What is a Spaghetti Fantasy?
Quote from: tenbonesBut I'm very curious about our fellow Mos Eisleyans here that publish and design.
I gotta say, I'm perversely interested in publishing some throwaway work for 6e (aka turning the Temple of Elemental Evil into the Fortress of Ethereal Chaos) just to see what the weather is like within the WotC Walled Garden.
So many of these 3PP companies have existed as remora fish attached to the bloated Woketard of the Crapass Coast for 20+ years and they are not going to enjoy the grand and overcrowded wilderness outside of the reliable sales from their current edition D&D fandom.
Quote from: Spinachcat on January 21, 2023, 04:54:19 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88The founding members of the European RPG Studios Union are Studio Agate, the French team behind decorated gothic RPG Shadows of Esteren and 5E-powered sword-and-sorcery game Fateforge; German publisher Uhrwerk Verlag, known for fantasy RPGs Splittermond and Malmsturm; and Italian company Acheron Games, maker of alt-history RPG Lex Arcana, the 'spaghetti fantasy' Brancalonia and Inferno, which adapts the Hell of Dante's Divine Comedy for D&D 5E.
Wow! I've never heard of these games. Are any translated into English? Would you recommend any of them? What is a Spaghetti Fantasy?
Shadows of Esteren, Fateforge, Brancalonia, and Lex Arcana are all available in English (at least some of the products are). Fateforge (known as Dragons in France) and Brancalonia are 5e-compatible, the other games have their own systems. You can find Fateforge and Brancalonia on drivethrurpg.
Quote from: Spinachcat on January 21, 2023, 04:54:19 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88The founding members of the European RPG Studios Union are Studio Agate, the French team behind decorated gothic RPG Shadows of Esteren and 5E-powered sword-and-sorcery game Fateforge; German publisher Uhrwerk Verlag, known for fantasy RPGs Splittermond and Malmsturm; and Italian company Acheron Games, maker of alt-history RPG Lex Arcana, the 'spaghetti fantasy' Brancalonia and Inferno, which adapts the Hell of Dante's Divine Comedy for D&D 5E.
Wow! I've never heard of these games. Are any translated into English? Would you recommend any of them? What is a Spaghetti Fantasy?
"Spaghetti Westerns" were American-style Western movies made in Italy in the 1960s; they were huge there. I've seen lots of people refer to Brancalonia as a spaghetti fantasy; I think it's not just because it's from Italy, but it doubles down on the old Western-style theming: a wandering collection of ne'er-do-wells.
Googling at random: "In terms of major plots, Spaghetti Westerns can be considered to fall into three camps -- bounty hunter films, revenge tales and political stories. Sergio Leone's films focused on the bounty hunter, in the quest for money, which was an end goal in itself."
Also, the Wikipedia article looks decent.
I had someone at work who has played D&D only a handful of times, who knows very little about the hobby, and they had heard of the whole WotC mess. I asked what they had heard from the news, and she said, "It sounds like it will hurt independent game shops and creators", which I thought was really interesting.
I have been running 5e on Roll20 for some friends, but I'm trying to get them to move to OSE (Old School Essentials).
The response is pretty positive so far, but I'll finish off a scenario I got going in 5e first and then move over to OSE and see if they like it.
I've been running OSE for some other friends for a bit now at the actual tabletop and they're enjoying that.
Never used DnD beyond and don't intend to and don't intend to buy anymore Wotc product.
Actually, It's been a year or so since I bought any DnD/WotC product anyway, I've been getting tired of 5e for quite a long time anyway.
Probably going to scale back my DMing too, will try out playing more often, particularly Call of Cthulhu and other RPGs.
Atlas Games is looking into some kind of Open Ars Magica via ORC.
https://atlas-games.com/news/post?s=2023-01-13-atlas-games-orc-license-for-the-horde
I don't know in this case. Normally I'd say, "Oh, the terminally online are only a tiny percentage, 95% of their customers will never even hear of an online scandal." But in this instance, a lot of D&D's clientele hinged on stuff like Critical Role and online influencers proselytizing, so are in a position to hear a lot about the clusterfuck. Also thanks to the coronas a lot of gamers were forced to engage online to play, providing more avenues for online drama to find its way to their ears as opposed to the basement nerds of yesteryear.
I would not be shocked if this actually did cause a shift in the marketplace. I would be shocked if D&D lost its number one spot in the market, but I do expect its competition to gain ground on it.
Quote from: Spinachcat on January 21, 2023, 05:02:28 AM
Quote from: tenbonesBut I'm very curious about our fellow Mos Eisleyans here that publish and design.
I gotta say, I'm perversely interested in publishing some throwaway work for 6e (aka turning the Temple of Elemental Evil into the Fortress of Ethereal Chaos) just to see what the weather is like within the WotC Walled Garden.
So many of these 3PP companies have existed as remora fish attached to the bloated Woketard of the Crapass Coast for 20+ years and they are not going to enjoy the grand and overcrowded wilderness outside of the reliable sales from their current edition D&D fandom.
Speaking of clones. Hackmaster already parodied many D&D adventures.
Check out these fine films (https://www.imdb.com/list/ls064712028/) most of which aren't parodies.
Quote from: tenbones on January 19, 2023, 07:05:29 PM
Anyone else following other lines hear/see anything like this?
AD&D1e books on ebay have gone up 500-1,000% in price in the last week or so. Other older game systems are up, too, but just 200% or so.
Quote from: DocJones on January 21, 2023, 11:05:21 PM
Speaking of clones. Hackmaster already parodied many D&D adventures.
Check out these fine films (https://www.imdb.com/list/ls064712028/) most of which aren't parodies.
I think these are different issues.
I haven't seen any films by The Asylum, but my understanding is that they are treading on trademark, not copyright. My impression is that the content of the deceptively-titled films has very little to do with film it is imitating. It's relying on a similar title - because unique titles are difficult, and descriptive art to deceive people into buying. But the characters and action have little resemblance.
Parodies are a specially recognized case of "fair use" in copyright. Parody films often have very close match-up to the films that they are parodying. And Hackmaster can get away with "fair use" of a lot of D&D material because it justifies that it is transformative via parody.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 21, 2023, 11:10:02 PM
Quote from: tenbones on January 19, 2023, 07:05:29 PM
Anyone else following other lines hear/see anything like this?
AD&D1e books on ebay have gone up 500-1,000% in price in the last week or so. Other older game systems are up, too, but just 200% or so.
That's wild. But I do not begrudge anyone trying to get their hands on some 1e to learn how we did. Marking it up 1000%... that's a bit ruthless.
From a 4K survey (how well was it done? Don't know!) 1 in 10 vow to never again play D&D even though they own the books, etc to do so.
https://www.fandomspot.com/one-in-ten-ttrpg-players-done-with-dnd/ (https://www.fandomspot.com/one-in-ten-ttrpg-players-done-with-dnd/)
Gamers love being abused by exploitative megacorps, so I doubt that 1/10th of the people saying they won't buy D&D ever again will renege on their vow.
But it's possible that could be a pyrrhic win for WOTC/Hasbro with their investment. Lets hope so. I want to see the dragon slain.
I have noticed a definite shift away from D&D. Heck, this even predates the OGL debacle; I remember watching a Colville a few months ago where he mentioned Paranoia and described it in a positive light to show how D&D doesn't do everything, so I think this isn't exactly the start of a big trend away from D&D, but it is going to be the incident which many players remember as the cause.
Will it happen overnight? No. Most groups will wrap up current games and that's 2-10 sessions, so expect the swing to not start in earnest for several months, anyways. But there is a definite decrease in D&D-Dominance in the market.
Quote from: Fheredin on January 22, 2023, 10:31:12 PM
I have noticed a definite shift away from D&D. Heck, this even predates the OGL debacle; I remember watching a Colville a few months ago where he mentioned Paranoia and described it in a positive light to show how D&D doesn't do everything, so I think this isn't exactly the start of a big trend away from D&D, but it is going to be the incident which many players remember as the cause.
Will it happen overnight? No. Most groups will wrap up current games and that's 2-10 sessions, so expect the swing to not start in earnest for several months, anyways. But there is a definite decrease in D&D-Dominance in the market.
Despite there being many people (me included) who genuinely enjoy most D&D games (especially D&D-like games not under the control of idiots) more than many would like to admit, there are definitely people who jump on it as a bandwagon, without even exploring other options. Some of them would indeed prefer something else if they gave it a try. Others, would retain their enjoyment for D&D but find that they also enjoy other options (me included, a long time ago).
So it takes something pretty seismic to move people off wholesale. It takes something a lot less significant than that to get people to look. And that's all everyone else really needs. If 3% of the current 5E players look, and 2% of those jump, and 1% drop WotC entirely, it's a blip on Wanker's radar but huge for the people where they land. If the numbers go up from that, adjust accordingly. I think events so far are already such that more than 3% will look. 10% looking is an earthquake, because that puts us back to mid-TSR days, as far as the size of the market for everyone else.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 23, 2023, 08:15:23 AM
So it takes something pretty seismic to move people off wholesale. It takes something a lot less significant than that to get people to look. And that's all everyone else really needs. If 3% of the current 5E players look, and 2% of those jump, and 1% drop WotC entirely, it's a blip on Wanker's radar but huge for the people where they land. If the numbers go up from that, adjust accordingly. I think events so far are already such that more than 3% will look. 10% looking is an earthquake, because that puts us back to mid-TSR days, as far as the size of the market for everyone else.
Very much this. There's a theory in independent content creation called "1000 true fans" where a content creator can make enough to support themselves (not rich, but paying the bills as their actual job) if they can get a thousand people to buy everything they produce (or these days, pay $1/month on patreon).
WotC claims somewhere in the neighborhood of 13 million currently active players worldwide... 1% of that is 130,000 people... even just counting the GMs out of that number... that's a LOT of prospects for a smaller creator to pick up "1000 true fans." (or a few hundred who help supplement your day job).
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 23, 2023, 08:15:23 AM
there are definitely people who jump on it as a bandwagon, without even exploring other options.
My experience is that new players seek out DMs and games to join, not specific systems. Our group has seen dozens of first-time TTRPG players, all of whom were seeking out "their first D&D experience", and none of whom cared one iota which game rules provided it. My current players refer to our game as "D&D night", although we don't play D&D, or a clone of any kind, and
never have.
Someone mentioned D&D being the Kleenex of TTRPGs. Just because new players
call something D&D doesn't mean it's WoTC's product they're playing, or even looking for.
Quote from: Zalman on January 23, 2023, 08:52:10 AM
My experience is that new players seek out DMs and games to join, not specific systems. Our group has seen dozens of first-time TTRPG players, all of whom were seeking out "their first D&D experience", and none of whom cared one iota which game rules provided it. My current players refer to our game as "D&D night", although we don't play D&D, or a clone of any kind, and never have.
Someone mentioned D&D being the Kleenex of TTRPGs. Just because new players call something D&D doesn't mean it's WoTC's product they're playing, or even looking for.
My numbers are similar in starting with my games, and my experience is that it happens like that, OR, it happens when someone, usually fairly young, buys the game and figures it out with a group of friends, much like a lot of us did back in the day. Occasionally, I get a cross-over from one of those groups into mine, even someone who taught themselves to GM. That usually spawns an in-depth conversation about why I run the way I do (a lot more like early D&D than anyone would get opening up a WotC product and running it as their first experience). There's usually some doubt about it, while at the same time acknowledging that they enjoyed my game. The usual result is they leave the conversation in thoughtful silence. Sometimes this has an actual effect on how they run their games, sometimes not.
There is a strain of wishful thinking that runs through this forum, or more accurately, one strain of wishful thinking and one of despair. One group, the RPG mechanics snobs, thinks that enjoying a D&D-like game is, de facto, evidence that the person is either close-minded or dense or both. If
all of these people would ever try [insert their favorite game of the day], a new world would emerge with scintillating butterflies and heavy metal unicorns of good gaming. Meanwhile, the despair crowd is convinced that there is something lowest common denominator about D&D (appeal, branding, bandwagon, whatever) that makes it akin to an addiction. So of course no matter what happens, everyone currently playing 5E will stick with whatever the Wankers produce.
The reality is that the snobs are correct about a tiny slice of the D&D (ish) player base, and the despair crowd is correct about a tiny slice of the same base (albeit, maybe a slightly larger slice than the snobs). The vast bulk of the remainder of the player base is filled with mostly casual players and relatively few who really get into it. Some of the casuals will become more interested if they can hit on the right group. And with the recent bandwagon effects, there are of course a big chunk that aren't really TTRPG players, never have been, never will be. They go through the motions, and as soon as the motions cease, they'll be off to something. I hope that WotC keeps every last one of that last chunk in their new endeavors, because it will make the "community" they create completely alien to real players.
TL;DR: We only want the quality players in that existing base to move, whether to something akin to D&D or something more exotic.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 23, 2023, 08:15:23 AM
Quote from: Fheredin on January 22, 2023, 10:31:12 PM
I have noticed a definite shift away from D&D. Heck, this even predates the OGL debacle; I remember watching a Colville a few months ago where he mentioned Paranoia and described it in a positive light to show how D&D doesn't do everything, so I think this isn't exactly the start of a big trend away from D&D, but it is going to be the incident which many players remember as the cause.
Will it happen overnight? No. Most groups will wrap up current games and that's 2-10 sessions, so expect the swing to not start in earnest for several months, anyways. But there is a definite decrease in D&D-Dominance in the market.
Despite there being many people (me included) who genuinely enjoy most D&D games (especially D&D-like games not under the control of idiots) more than many would like to admit, there are definitely people who jump on it as a bandwagon, without even exploring other options. Some of them would indeed prefer something else if they gave it a try. Others, would retain their enjoyment for D&D but find that they also enjoy other options (me included, a long time ago).
So it takes something pretty seismic to move people off wholesale. It takes something a lot less significant than that to get people to look. And that's all everyone else really needs. If 3% of the current 5E players look, and 2% of those jump, and 1% drop WotC entirely, it's a blip on Wanker's radar but huge for the people where they land. If the numbers go up from that, adjust accordingly. I think events so far are already such that more than 3% will look. 10% looking is an earthquake, because that puts us back to mid-TSR days, as far as the size of the market for everyone else.
I don't think you realize the reason for the switch; the OGL 1.1 was basically designed to skim 25% off Critical Role's revenue, which makes it quite likely that the most famous D&D podcast will drop D&D in favor of something else, at least in protest. And Colville already seems to be on a slow divorce trajectory with D&D. What's happening is that online influencers are leaving D&D, and that will have an effect on the most involved players and GMs, who will then discuss it with the rest of their groups, and you have a snowball.
How much of the market will actually drop D&D? I have no clue. But the real awakening point is not if you drop D&D; it's if you visit a website like DriveThru or Itch.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 23, 2023, 09:11:40 AM
Quote from: Zalman on January 23, 2023, 08:52:10 AM
My experience is that new players seek out DMs and games to join, not specific systems. Our group has seen dozens of first-time TTRPG players, all of whom were seeking out "their first D&D experience", and none of whom cared one iota which game rules provided it. My current players refer to our game as "D&D night", although we don't play D&D, or a clone of any kind, and never have.
Someone mentioned D&D being the Kleenex of TTRPGs. Just because new players call something D&D doesn't mean it's WoTC's product they're playing, or even looking for.
My numbers are similar in starting with my games, and my experience is that it happens like that, OR, it happens when someone, usually fairly young, buys the game and figures it out with a group of friends, much like a lot of us did back in the day. Occasionally, I get a cross-over from one of those groups into mine, even someone who taught themselves to GM. That usually spawns an in-depth conversation about why I run the way I do (a lot more like early D&D than anyone would get opening up a WotC product and running it as their first experience). There's usually some doubt about it, while at the same time acknowledging that they enjoyed my game. The usual result is they leave the conversation in thoughtful silence. Sometimes this has an actual effect on how they run their games, sometimes not.
There is a strain of wishful thinking that runs through this forum, or more accurately, one strain of wishful thinking and one of despair. One group, the RPG mechanics snobs, thinks that enjoying a D&D-like game is, de facto, evidence that the person is either close-minded or dense or both. If all of these people would ever try [insert their favorite game of the day], a new world would emerge with scintillating butterflies and heavy metal unicorns of good gaming. Meanwhile, the despair crowd is convinced that there is something lowest common denominator about D&D (appeal, branding, bandwagon, whatever) that makes it akin to an addiction. So of course no matter what happens, everyone currently playing 5E will stick with whatever the Wankers produce.
The reality is that the snobs are correct about a tiny slice of the D&D (ish) player base, and the despair crowd is correct about a tiny slice of the same base (albeit, maybe a slightly larger slice than the snobs). The vast bulk of the remainder of the player base is filled with mostly casual players and relatively few who really get into it. Some of the casuals will become more interested if they can hit on the right group. And with the recent bandwagon effects, there are of course a big chunk that aren't really TTRPG players, never have been, never will be. They go through the motions, and as soon as the motions cease, they'll be off to something. I hope that WotC keeps every last one of that last chunk in their new endeavors, because it will make the "community" they create completely alien to real players.
TL;DR: We only want the quality players in that existing base to move, whether to something akin to D&D or something more exotic.
I think you're missing something here. This situation is completely unique. Hasbro has already managed to piss off a large number of people. They're using veiled threats of weaponized lawfare to destroy the entire TTRPG industry
(not just OGL games), to destroy all other VTTs, and with subtle implied threats to go after anyone posting game material on their shitty Internet blogs.
Hasbro is basically trying to
BULLY and
GASLIGHT the entire TTRPG hobby and industry into switching to a somewhat related, but different hobby. I've never seen anything quite like this before. ???
Playing an online video game with an AI DM Chatbot is not the same hobby as tabletop roleplaying games. In regards to VTT, there are certainly similarities to tabletop roleplaying games....but what Hasbro is trying to do has more in common with computer games or MMOs or whatever. And these evil retards are trying to intimidate or gaslight everyone into not playing, sharing, or publishing TTRPGs any more
(not just OGL games). This might not be completely obvious, but their highly weaponized tactics of corporate psychological warfare demonstrate that this is what they are trying to do.
I do not know what will happen next, but I do believe Hasbro made an enormous tactical mistake that cannot be easily fixed. This mistake is potentially exploitable by people who publish games. Hasbro removed their mask, and reminded people that the D&D trademark is not controlled by gamer nerds, but by monstrously evil billion dollar corporations.
I think we all needed that reminder.
Quote from: Fheredin on January 23, 2023, 09:18:39 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 23, 2023, 08:15:23 AM
Quote from: Fheredin on January 22, 2023, 10:31:12 PM
I have noticed a definite shift away from D&D. Heck, this even predates the OGL debacle; I remember watching a Colville a few months ago where he mentioned Paranoia and described it in a positive light to show how D&D doesn't do everything, so I think this isn't exactly the start of a big trend away from D&D, but it is going to be the incident which many players remember as the cause.
Will it happen overnight? No. Most groups will wrap up current games and that's 2-10 sessions, so expect the swing to not start in earnest for several months, anyways. But there is a definite decrease in D&D-Dominance in the market.
Despite there being many people (me included) who genuinely enjoy most D&D games (especially D&D-like games not under the control of idiots) more than many would like to admit, there are definitely people who jump on it as a bandwagon, without even exploring other options. Some of them would indeed prefer something else if they gave it a try. Others, would retain their enjoyment for D&D but find that they also enjoy other options (me included, a long time ago).
So it takes something pretty seismic to move people off wholesale. It takes something a lot less significant than that to get people to look. And that's all everyone else really needs. If 3% of the current 5E players look, and 2% of those jump, and 1% drop WotC entirely, it's a blip on Wanker's radar but huge for the people where they land. If the numbers go up from that, adjust accordingly. I think events so far are already such that more than 3% will look. 10% looking is an earthquake, because that puts us back to mid-TSR days, as far as the size of the market for everyone else.
I don't think you realize the reason for the switch; the OGL 1.1 was basically designed to skim 25% off Critical Role's revenue, which makes it quite likely that the most famous D&D podcast will drop D&D in favor of something else, at least in protest. And Colville already seems to be on a slow divorce trajectory with D&D. What's happening is that online influencers are leaving D&D, and that will have an effect on the most involved players and GMs, who will then discuss it with the rest of their groups, and you have a snowball.
How much of the market will actually drop D&D? I have no clue. But the real awakening point is not if you drop D&D; it's if you visit a website like DriveThru or Itch.
No, I get that. But what I'm saying is that the downstream effects are impossible to predict. Other than that we know some slice is going to stick (no matter how badly they are treated) and some slice is going to look for alternatives and jump. But there is this huge chunk in the middle who are more likely to simply curtail what they do around gaming or get out altogether.
Therefore, the
most likely snowball effect is that the market size craters, as the bulk of the casuals wander off to do something else. Doesn't mean your scenario is impossible, just that it's not the way to bet at the moment. Happily, both outcomes are good for us. If the market craters, but everyone else get significantly increased raw numbers, that helps the smaller guys but is devastating for WotC. If you are correct, then we get a few medium players in the remains who will spend the next 5 to 10 years hashing out who is going to be the next 800 lb gorilla. Meanwhile, the smaller guys are still getting more eyeballs anyway.
Yeah - I think we win no matter what.
Long before this happened, I know several of us have been saying this for years - that whether you like 5e or not, but love D&D (as I do) *nothing* prevents us from playing the brand of D&D we love without giving a nickel to WotC unless it's 5e. All the previous editions are right there, as well as the large selection of OSR content.
And that holds more true than ever with OneD&D... now 5e will be sunset like all the previous editions. And let's be factual: 5e did not have the content spread that previous editions had in the first place. So going over to OneD&D to follow "content" is not going to be a real thing. OneD&D is promising a different kind of game altogether.
That is the big difference between now and all these other edition-changes. It's not *just* a tweak to the d20 formula, where they plan to give you less for more money expenditure. They're *leaving* the TTRPG space and trying nuke their perceived competitors from orbit. They don't really *care* about non-OGL games. We're on a different continent altogether.
Nor do they care about survivors. They're going to create an entirely different kind of RPG experience with their VTT domination attempt and betting Brand loyalty will carry them to the stars.
For those of us that don't play OGL games, or D&D for that matter, we're gonna watch them blast off into space - and perhaps explode, or not... but in either case, we're going to be able to catch a lot of those bailing from OneD&D mothership as it rockets off into the abyss. It's win/win.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 23, 2023, 10:08:17 AM
Quote from: Fheredin on January 23, 2023, 09:18:39 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 23, 2023, 08:15:23 AM
Quote from: Fheredin on January 22, 2023, 10:31:12 PM
I have noticed a definite shift away from D&D. Heck, this even predates the OGL debacle; I remember watching a Colville a few months ago where he mentioned Paranoia and described it in a positive light to show how D&D doesn't do everything, so I think this isn't exactly the start of a big trend away from D&D, but it is going to be the incident which many players remember as the cause.
Will it happen overnight? No. Most groups will wrap up current games and that's 2-10 sessions, so expect the swing to not start in earnest for several months, anyways. But there is a definite decrease in D&D-Dominance in the market.
Despite there being many people (me included) who genuinely enjoy most D&D games (especially D&D-like games not under the control of idiots) more than many would like to admit, there are definitely people who jump on it as a bandwagon, without even exploring other options. Some of them would indeed prefer something else if they gave it a try. Others, would retain their enjoyment for D&D but find that they also enjoy other options (me included, a long time ago).
So it takes something pretty seismic to move people off wholesale. It takes something a lot less significant than that to get people to look. And that's all everyone else really needs. If 3% of the current 5E players look, and 2% of those jump, and 1% drop WotC entirely, it's a blip on Wanker's radar but huge for the people where they land. If the numbers go up from that, adjust accordingly. I think events so far are already such that more than 3% will look. 10% looking is an earthquake, because that puts us back to mid-TSR days, as far as the size of the market for everyone else.
I don't think you realize the reason for the switch; the OGL 1.1 was basically designed to skim 25% off Critical Role's revenue, which makes it quite likely that the most famous D&D podcast will drop D&D in favor of something else, at least in protest. And Colville already seems to be on a slow divorce trajectory with D&D. What's happening is that online influencers are leaving D&D, and that will have an effect on the most involved players and GMs, who will then discuss it with the rest of their groups, and you have a snowball.
How much of the market will actually drop D&D? I have no clue. But the real awakening point is not if you drop D&D; it's if you visit a website like DriveThru or Itch.
No, I get that. But what I'm saying is that the downstream effects are impossible to predict. Other than that we know some slice is going to stick (no matter how badly they are treated) and some slice is going to look for alternatives and jump. But there is this huge chunk in the middle who are more likely to simply curtail what they do around gaming or get out altogether.
Therefore, the most likely snowball effect is that the market size craters, as the bulk of the casuals wander off to do something else. Doesn't mean your scenario is impossible, just that it's not the way to bet at the moment. Happily, both outcomes are good for us. If the market craters, but everyone else get significantly increased raw numbers, that helps the smaller guys but is devastating for WotC. If you are correct, then we get a few medium players in the remains who will spend the next 5 to 10 years hashing out who is going to be the next 800 lb gorilla. Meanwhile, the smaller guys are still getting more eyeballs anyway.
I am less sold that this is a slam dunk good thing; so much of that depends on Hasbro's involvement and motivation because litigation of smaller creators would probably come from Hasbro, not WotC. Possibly at WotC's request, but it still requires Hasbro corporate to get behind it. Chances are the litigation is largely an empty threat; it's not cost effective and the OGL makes winning difficult, but if Hasbro itself is actually thinking of litigating or harassing smaller publishers with lawsuits, this could be quite bad for the space, at least in the short run.
That said, more likely than not you are correct that this will play out in favor of OSR and non-D&D indie games. It just isn't absolutely sure.
At the end of the day, D&D is a fossil of a game trying to use computer VTT bells and whistles to conceal the fact it's a fossil of a game. Ability scores and ability modifiers are a strange and obtuse distinction, saving throws should have been streamlined out a long time ago, and no game made after 2010 should have something as positively asinine as letting feats conflict so you have multiple possible computations for armor class. D&D Shorts may say that the design team and most individual employees are helpless victims of the upper level managers, but the products themselves say that the WotC employees in question don't actually know that much about the industry, either.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 23, 2023, 08:36:58 AM
Very much this. There's a theory in independent content creation called "1000 true fans" where a content creator can make enough to support themselves (not rich, but paying the bills as their actual job) if they can get a thousand people to buy everything they produce (or these days, pay $1/month on patreon).
Original figure was $100 a year or $10 a month (Net, of course, after taxes).
$1 a month is poverty level. You got more on Social Security (in 2022) and you can't even survive on Social Security.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 23, 2023, 08:15:23 AMSo it takes something pretty seismic to move people off wholesale. It takes something a lot less significant than that to get people to look. And that's all everyone else really needs. If 3% of the current 5E players look, and 2% of those jump, and 1% drop WotC entirely, it's a blip on Wanker's radar but huge for the people where they land. If the numbers go up from that, adjust accordingly. I think events so far are already such that more than 3% will look. 10% looking is an earthquake, because that puts us back to mid-TSR days, as far as the size of the market for everyone else.
I can't guess what percentage will look or jump, but I agree this kerfluffle will cause some to look and even if they don't dump D&D, but simply add some 3PP products to their RPG diet, that would be beneficial to the larger hobby.
Though I do wonder how many of the new D&Ders will be looking or jumping versus the older 5e players who used to be players of earlier editions or other RPGs.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on January 23, 2023, 09:47:34 AMAnd these evil retards are trying to intimidate or gaslight everyone into not playing, sharing, or publishing TTRPGs any more (not just OGL games). This might not be completely obvious, but their highly weaponized tactics of corporate psychological warfare demonstrate that this is what they are trying to do.
I'm unclear why WotC's actions could intimidate non-OGL publishers. For instance, why would Palladium, RuneQuest or Warhammer care what WotC is demanding of OGL publishers?
I am also unclear that we're seeing corporate psychological warfare from WotC instead of just wild displays of greed, incompetence and arrogance.
And what a wild display of WotC's patriarchial bigotry! Their screed that the OGL 1.2 is mandatory to their sacred quest to protect all non-White, non-male, non-hetero gamers is incredibly telling of how weak and helpless they think their 5e player base is.
Or how dumb WotC believes their fandom is to believe this schtick.
Here's what's confusing me.
If OneD&D (idiotic name) is going to be a VTT AI RPG/video game hybrid, why such panic by WotC about what printed tabletop products are produced by 3PP?
Shouldn't the OGL 1.2 really just focus on outlawing any non-tabletop development so they could nuke their potential VTT competitors? Why the need to bring hellfire down on the kids just making paper products for tabletop use?
AKA, why isn't the OGL 1.2 offering the OGL 1.0 benefits to anyone who wants to stick with the "old style" RPGing of human interaction around a table?
Seems to me WotC wants a walled garden around every aspect of 6e.
Quote from: Spinachcat on January 24, 2023, 03:09:37 AM
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on January 23, 2023, 09:47:34 AMAnd these evil retards are trying to intimidate or gaslight everyone into not playing, sharing, or publishing TTRPGs any more (not just OGL games). This might not be completely obvious, but their highly weaponized tactics of corporate psychological warfare demonstrate that this is what they are trying to do.
I'm unclear why WotC's actions could intimidate non-OGL publishers. For instance, why would Palladium, RuneQuest or Warhammer care what WotC is demanding of OGL publishers?
I am also unclear that we're seeing corporate psychological warfare from WotC instead of just wild displays of greed, incompetence and arrogance.
And what a wild display of WotC's patriarchial bigotry! Their screed that the OGL 1.2 is mandatory to their sacred quest to protect all non-White, non-male, non-hetero gamers is incredibly telling of how weak and helpless they think their 5e player base is.
Or how dumb WotC believes their fandom is to believe this schtick.
Maybe I misspoke a little. I do not believe the existing TTRPG publishers who've been around for decades will have a major problem. My concern is with
new publishers publishing
new games. My point is what happens if you create a new game, and have a VTT alongside it? What happens if you create a game with similarities to D&D, like Rifts/Palladium or Hackmaster 5e? I'm concerned with new publishers, not old ones who've been around for decades.
Quote from: Spinachcat on January 24, 2023, 03:29:41 AM
Here's what's confusing me.
If OneD&D (idiotic name) is going to be a VTT AI RPG/video game hybrid, why such panic by WotC about what printed tabletop products are produced by 3PP?
Shouldn't the OGL 1.2 really just focus on outlawing any non-tabletop development so they could nuke their potential VTT competitors? Why the need to bring hellfire down on the kids just making paper products for tabletop use?
AKA, why isn't the OGL 1.2 offering the OGL 1.0 benefits to anyone who wants to stick with the "old style" RPGing of human interaction around a table?
Seems to me WotC wants a walled garden around every aspect of 6e.
Collective failure, like collective success, is often greater than the sum of its parts. It's entirely possible for a corporation to achieve stupidity, incompetence, arrogance, and malice--all in one wrapped up package, to a degree that a single person would have trouble sustaining for any length of time. It can even manage this while having some success.
Quote from: Spinachcat on January 24, 2023, 03:29:41 AM
Here's what's confusing me.
If OneD&D (idiotic name) is going to be a VTT AI RPG/video game hybrid, why such panic by WotC about what printed tabletop products are produced by 3PP?
I don't think they do care, I think it's collateral damage. In order to shut down other VTTs they need to kill the earlier license and make it as difficult as possible for those VTTs to host D&D. The fact that killing the license also puts little Billy's self-published D&D campaign in legal jeopardy doubtfully ever crossed their minds.
Quote from: Spinachcat on January 24, 2023, 03:29:41 AM
Here's what's confusing me.
If OneD&D (idiotic name) is going to be a VTT AI RPG/video game hybrid, why such panic by WotC about what printed tabletop products are produced by 3PP?
Shouldn't the OGL 1.2 really just focus on outlawing any non-tabletop development so they could nuke their potential VTT competitors? Why the need to bring hellfire down on the kids just making paper products for tabletop use?
Because One D&D isn't just a VTT game, but will also be a tabletop game. This way you don't need 100% of your audience to transition to VTT as they can keep the tabletop version going for very little money.
Hasbro needs to get rid of the OGL 1.0a to regain control of their IP. That's a strategic objective and is non-negotiable.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 24, 2023, 09:34:20 AM
Hasbro needs to get rid of the OGL 1.0a to regain control of their IP. That's a strategic objective and is non-negotiable.
We have a winner.
WotC is not "making a mistake". This is not "blowing up in their faces". This is "going according to the plan". It's true this is all costing them money, customers, and goodwill. That's just the cost of doing business.
One noticeable side-effect is that even looking at my 5e books makes me queasy now. I used to really like that edition.
I was in an ongoing 5e campaign with my kids for over 2 years and we all had so much fun. Now I want to either convert it to another system, or just start a new campaign with a different game.
Quote from: thornad on January 26, 2023, 11:14:31 PM
One noticeable side-effect is that even looking at my 5e books makes me queasy now. I used to really like that edition.
I was in an ongoing 5e campaign with my kids for over 2 years and we all had so much fun. Now I want to either convert it to another system, or just start a new campaign with a different game.
Or use "5E" in contorted ways, which would make the folks in Seattle stain their shorts with darkness; and then post about it in as many formats as possible. Go on and on, about how much fun it was. Mention that your kids can't wait to play "5E" again.
Quote from: thornad on January 26, 2023, 11:14:31 PM
One noticeable side-effect is that even looking at my 5e books makes me queasy now. I used to really like that edition.
I was in an ongoing 5e campaign with my kids for over 2 years and we all had so much fun. Now I want to either convert it to another system, or just start a new campaign with a different game.
Understandable and lamentable. :(
But thornad has it right, just like many above: once you have hardcopy (personal data file), you can play with your copy as you please. :)
I would just add that for me personally everything Hasbro/WotC is dead from January 2023. OK, you fired me as a customer -- and in turn I fire you from my life in toto as a customer. Every retail thing, including my beloved fictional OvenMitts of Vecna, no longer exist in my world. What older products I consume will be in private and if necessary purchased second-hand.
Just think of the ending of Labyrinth, "You have no power over me." :D Let them fade...
Quote from: thornad on January 26, 2023, 11:14:31 PM
One noticeable side-effect is that even looking at my 5e books makes me queasy now. I used to really like that edition.
I was in an ongoing 5e campaign with my kids for over 2 years and we all had so much fun. Now I want to either convert it to another system, or just start a new campaign with a different game.
Try something else, and 1 of 2 things is likely to happen:
- You get into the new thing sufficiently that you find you prefer it to what was before. Great, problem solved.
- Some distance and time away from 5E lets the churn subside, and you can go back to it, maybe in a rotation, using what you've got already in ways that you can now enjoy again.
Either way, don't let screw ups by others now affect happy memories of what came before. I had a ball with 5E in my campaigns with it earlier. Fact. I will not be using it at all in the future, and have already got multiple replacements I prefer. Also fact. The second fact doesn't change the first one.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig on January 23, 2023, 01:56:55 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 23, 2023, 08:36:58 AM
Very much this. There's a theory in independent content creation called "1000 true fans" where a content creator can make enough to support themselves (not rich, but paying the bills as their actual job) if they can get a thousand people to buy everything they produce (or these days, pay $1/month on patreon).
Original figure was $100 a year or $10 a month (Net, of course, after taxes).
$1 a month is poverty level. You got more on Social Security (in 2022) and you can't even survive on Social Security.
The numbers change, but the broader concept remains. $15 a month gross is still viable if you keep costs low. $15 * 12 * 1000 = $180,000 gross. If production overhead is 20% or lower that leaves $150,000. In the US lost about 32% of that to taxes (the joys of self-employment tax) and about $30k to health insurance, you're still at $72,000 take home or $6k a month. That's within 10% what a VP at one of the too-big-to-fail banks takes home for salary after taxes and insurance.
However, a lot of people don't talk about all this entails: a strong work ethic with a consistent release cycle of enough creations to justify a $10 monthly gross expenditure
Quote from: PulpHerb on January 27, 2023, 11:08:12 AMyou're still at $72,000 take home or $6k a month. That's within 10% what a VP at one of the too-big-to-fail banks takes home for salary after taxes and insurance.
$6k/mo doesn't pay $1M mortgages which are standard in major cities for the homes owned by anyone in the VP class. As a headhunter 20 years ago, I never placed a VP at less than $175k base with a $300k+ total package, and those were mid-size Fortune 1000 companies. I can't imagine 2023 comps being less than +$100k from previous numbers.
Quote from: Spinachcat on January 27, 2023, 04:59:21 PM
Quote from: PulpHerb on January 27, 2023, 11:08:12 AMyou're still at $72,000 take home or $6k a month. That's within 10% what a VP at one of the too-big-to-fail banks takes home for salary after taxes and insurance.
$6k/mo doesn't pay $1M mortgages which are standard in major cities for the homes owned by anyone in the VP class. As a headhunter 20 years ago, I never placed a VP at less than $175k base with a $300k+ total package, and those were mid-size Fortune 1000 companies. I can't imagine 2023 comps being less than +$100k from previous numbers.
Housing and cost of living is very regional though. A VERY nice house in my part of the country rural Midwest (who wants to live in an overcrowded city?) is maybe a third of that with proportional mortgages. I could live VERY comfortably on $6k a month around here.