Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2023, 01:52:31 PM
Taxation is theft!

But I agree, the DM in my AD&D2e 2year+ ongoing campaign has us paying taxes for everything:

"So you will go to clean the mine from Goblins? Neat we'll pay you 1000 GP per adventurer."

"Welcome back adventurers! Here's your reward, minus the taxes you have to pay on it." (Mind you, if you wish to burden them or yourself with keeping track of the taxes you could make the tax man come only once per in game year).

As for magic items... Even in High Fantasy worlds I keep them rare, the good ones at least, you might get minor magic items easily but those are cheaper/faster/easier to do, the more powerful ones are increasingly rarer. Because they are powerful they are more valuable, and Ye Olde Magic Shoppe carries ingredients, you might find a lesser magic item for sale, but the good stuff never reaches the market, it's inherited, stolen or won as battle loot. Plus the King/Emperor or the Temples might have a claim over the more powerful items, only some times granting them as reward to the PCs.

On the other hand I include/allow some classes to have a profficiency in tending/curing some wounds/diseases, you'll not heal as fast as with a Cleric's Blessing or being tended by someone with better experience/education on those matters but you will not die from a minor wound.

I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that? I'm stuck in the dungeon I spoze. Great post!

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 01:54:23 PM
Yes, this is what I'm doing from now on.

It is strange - I have spent maybe a decade making my own adventures, then I got tired and started using published modules for another decade or so... and now I'm not that satisfied with them.

Maybe I'll find  a happy medium by taking existing adventures  and changing them  for my tastes.

I was there with you (designing my own adventures), but my setting was grimdark and deadly before it became a thing. With published modules, I can easily change what I don't like and the players don't get a TPK during the 1st combat. Do what's fun for you, that's the ticket 

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 23, 2023, 02:27:12 PM
One idea I nabbed from Earthdawn is leveling items. As the character advances, they can unlock more and better features from their magical items. This means you can be more stingy with magical items, but the items keep up with the power level of the character.

And I don't use gold for xp even in OSR style games. That just opens up too much of a can of worms with characters carting around buckets full of coins, and playing Medievial Tax Lawyer instead of getting their asses back into the adventure.

I like that "leveling item" idea and will probably steal it!

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2023, 01:52:31 PM
Taxation is theft!

But I agree, the DM in my AD&D2e 2year+ ongoing campaign has us paying taxes for everything:

"So you will go to clean the mine from Goblins? Neat we'll pay you 1000 GP per adventurer."

"Welcome back adventurers! Here's your reward, minus the taxes you have to pay on it." (Mind you, if you wish to burden them or yourself with keeping track of the taxes you could make the tax man come only once per in game year).

As for magic items... Even in High Fantasy worlds I keep them rare, the good ones at least, you might get minor magic items easily but those are cheaper/faster/easier to do, the more powerful ones are increasingly rarer. Because they are powerful they are more valuable, and Ye Olde Magic Shoppe carries ingredients, you might find a lesser magic item for sale, but the good stuff never reaches the market, it's inherited, stolen or won as battle loot. Plus the King/Emperor or the Temples might have a claim over the more powerful items, only some times granting them as reward to the PCs.

On the other hand I include/allow some classes to have a profficiency in tending/curing some wounds/diseases, you'll not heal as fast as with a Cleric's Blessing or being tended by someone with better experience/education on those matters but you will not die from a minor wound.

I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that? I'm stuck in the dungeon I spoze. Great post!

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 01:54:23 PM
Yes, this is what I'm doing from now on.

It is strange - I have spent maybe a decade making my own adventures, then I got tired and started using published modules for another decade or so... and now I'm not that satisfied with them.

Maybe I'll find  a happy medium by taking existing adventures  and changing them  for my tastes.

I was there with you (designing my own adventures), but my setting was grimdark and deadly before it became a thing. With published modules, I can easily change what I don't like and the players don't get a TPK during the 1st combat. Do what's fun for you, that's the ticket 

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 23, 2023, 02:27:12 PM
One idea I nabbed from Earthdawn is leveling items. As the character advances, they can unlock more and better features from their magical items. This means you can be more stingy with magical items, but the items keep up with the power level of the character.

And I don't use gold for xp even in OSR style games. That just opens up too much of a can of worms with characters carting around buckets full of coins, and playing Medievial Tax Lawyer instead of getting their asses back into the adventure.

I like that "leveling item" idea and will probably steal it!

Well, IF magic is real, and wizards need ingredients for their potions, spells, etc it makes sense to have some entrepenurial person to open a store that caters to that market. IF you have wizarding colleges it might even be an extension of the college, another way to earn money besides selling you the education. Of course then you can't have fake magic items to scam the rubes. At least that's the logic I use to justify some sort of magic store combined with the value of the really good magical items it explains how the wizard gets his ingredients and how some lesser/minor magical itmes find their way to the market.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 23, 2023, 02:27:12 PM
One idea I nabbed from Earthdawn is leveling items. As the character advances, they can unlock more and better features from their magical items.
This means you can be more stingy with magical items, but the items keep up with the power level of the character.

And I don't use gold for xp even in OSR style games. That just opens up too much of a can of worms with characters carting around buckets full of coins, and playing Medievial Tax Lawyer instead of getting their asses back into the adventure.

Stealing this for my games, thank you very much.

Quote from: Jason Coplen on June 23, 2023, 03:15:26 PM
I've used master crafted blades for decades. I tired of modules doling out way too much magic in the form of sword+1 and dagger+1 and so on. Better steel and better craftsmanship solves a lot of this problem, that and I limit magic items to a single one per hoard except in very rare cases such as dragon's hoards. D&D modules sure toss out way too much magic.

Also stealing this for my games, thank you for your contribution.

Quote from: estar on June 23, 2023, 02:23:06 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 01:15:39 PM
This is pretty neat TBH. If I understand it right, you could reduce rolls, doing:

Sure but the variety of results will go down. Which is why I recommend coding it up in Inspiration Pad Pro and see what it looks like with dozens of rolls.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 01:44:45 PM
But you're right that I assumed one gold piece as 1/10 of a pound.

Historically  Coins were all about the weight of precious metals in them.

For example in England from 8th century to around the mid 13th century the only minted coins was the silver penny the size of a US Dime. They weighed about 1.7 grams and were .925 fine. I.e. 92.5% pure silver.

In the mid 13th century, Henry III tried to introduce a gold penny (Us nickel size), which is worth 20 silver. But they had trouble getting the amount of gold right for the value. At first, there wasn't enough gold, then there was too much gold which meant folks melted them down. So the coins never circulated.

It wasn't until the reign of Edward III a hundred later, that the English crown made a gold currency that lasted the gold noble. The gold noble was worth 80d (sp), weighed around 8 grams, and was a little larger than a us half dollar.

For the purpose of gaming, I thought doing the 1/10th of a pound for the weight of a coin was stupid.

The system I use is that silver pennies (d) are the standard coins in every day use. They are the size of a dime and there are 240 of them to one pound . The other coin type I use is the gold crown which is worth 320d and there are 16 of them to one pound.

I found that particular combination of high value gold coin to a common silver coin to be popular among my players. Gold felt valuable again after I implemented this in the late 80s.

Other coins I have is the silver mark which is a silver bar with a mint mark and a value of 240d. They are the high value coin in Viking cultures.

Another is the gold penny used by Elves worth 20d and there are 240 of them to 1 pound. Also the size of a dime.

You can play around with weights and the ratio of gold value to silver to come up with your own coinage system.

You can also convert a given RPG/Setting price list by converting the price everything to silver (or copper) and the implement the price list with the new coinage system.

Hope this is helpful.

Some data I've dug up on the coins.  Weight in grams.  Biggest thing to note is that the thickness is about half the thickness of a dime even for the gold coins.

Year     Name                 Weight     Pure Silver     Pure gold     Pence     Ratio     Coins/LB     Diam(mm)   Thick(mm)
1158     Penny                1.458         1.349                                            311.11      15.00       0.73
1344     Penny                1.312         1.214                                            345.73         
1344     Gold Double Leopard  6.998                        6.962         72      12.55       64.82         
1344     Gold Noble                                                      80                              34.00     
         Gold Half Noble                                                 40                              25.50     
         Gold Quarter Noble                                              20                              20.00     
1346     Gold Noble                                                      80                              34.00     
         Gold Half Noble                                                 40                              25.50     
         Gold Quarter Noble                                              20                              20.00     
1351     Penny                1.200         1.110                                            377.99         
1351     Gold Noble           7.776                        7.736         80      11.48       58.33       34.00       0.81
         Gold Half Noble                                                 40                              25.50     
         Gold Quarter Noble                                              20                              20.00     
1412     Penny                0.972         0.899                                            466.67         
1412     Gold Half Noble      3.499                        3.481         40      10.33       129.63         
         Gold Quarter Noble                                              20                   
1464     Penny                0.777         0.719                                            583.55         
1464     Gold Half Angel      2.591                        2.578         40      11.16       175.03         


90/10        Grams     Diameter     Thickness
Dime          2.5       17.91          1.35
Quarter      6.25       24.26          1.75
Half Dollar   2.5       30.61          2.15
Dollar      26.73       38.10          2.40

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 01:26:00 PM
Magic items should be very rare. Or, you end up with the classic "Monty Haul" campaign where the PCs strut around like Christmas trees due to their arsenal of magic items. And like children, the players won't appreciate it, instead getting spoiled and expecting to find the Magic Dollar Store™ in every dungeon they explore. When you rework the module, have just one magic item for each PC. I ask players what magic item they'd like for their PCs, then if they survive the gauntlet, they find those items ONLY.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2023, 01:52:31 PM
As for magic items... Even in High Fantasy worlds I keep them rare, the good ones at least, you might get minor magic items easily but those are cheaper/faster/easier to do, the more powerful ones are increasingly rarer. Because they are powerful they are more valuable, and Ye Olde Magic Shoppe carries ingredients, you might find a lesser magic item for sale, but the good stuff never reaches the market, it's inherited, stolen or won as battle loot. Plus the King/Emperor or the Temples might have a claim over the more powerful items, only some times granting them as reward to the PCs.

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that?

There were no magic shops described in official modules that I know of, but back when I played AD&D, some DMs hypothesized them from:

• The GP value given for all magic items in the DMG. This was used in things like tournament modules. I recall specifically from C2 Ghost Tower of Inverness, the players have a fixed amount of gold and can buy magic items using it - though where they buy from is abstracted.
• The sheer number of magic items in published AD&D modules. There are dozens and dozens of items in most published modules.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2023, 04:44:55 PM
Well, IF magic is real, and wizards need ingredients for their potions, spells, etc it makes sense to have some entrepenurial person to open a store that caters to that market. IF you have wizarding colleges it might even be an extension of the college, another way to earn money besides selling you the education. Of course then you can't have fake magic items to scam the rubes. At least that's the logic I use to justify some sort of magic store combined with the value of the really good magical items it explains how the wizard gets his ingredients and how some lesser/minor magical itmes find their way to the market.

So what's stopping the local Thieves' Guild from knocking the place over? Magic wards, I guess. Just seems like such a place would draw all kinds of the wrong attention

Quote from: jhkim on June 23, 2023, 04:57:14 PM
There were no magic shops described in official modules that I know of, but back when I played AD&D, some DMs hypothesized them from:

• The GP value given for all magic items in the DMG. This was used in things like tournament modules. I recall specifically from C2 Ghost Tower of Inverness, the players have a fixed amount of gold and can buy magic items using it - though where they buy from is abstracted.
• The sheer number of magic items in published AD&D modules. There are dozens and dozens of items in most published modules.

Tournaments?!? I guess. The modules were stupid for magic items: I'm running an old AD&D module now that's packed with ARTIFACTS no less. A few are okay but most I had to dial-back a bit.

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 06:43:04 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2023, 04:44:55 PM
Well, IF magic is real, and wizards need ingredients for their potions, spells, etc it makes sense to have some entrepenurial person to open a store that caters to that market. IF you have wizarding colleges it might even be an extension of the college, another way to earn money besides selling you the education. Of course then you can't have fake magic items to scam the rubes. At least that's the logic I use to justify some sort of magic store combined with the value of the really good magical items it explains how the wizard gets his ingredients and how some lesser/minor magical itmes find their way to the market.

So what's stopping the local Thieves' Guild from knocking the place over? Magic wards, I guess. Just seems like such a place would draw all kinds of the wrong attention

To steal what? Herbs, powders, oil, owlbear feathers, dragon scales, etc? Or maybe the fake magical artifacts? You need to remember that IF the store carries any real magical artifacts it's the type that are really minor, nothing valuable ever reaches the open market.

IF any magical artifact of real value is for sale it's more likelly that it's the Guild that's selling it.

Quote from: Jason Coplen on June 23, 2023, 03:15:26 PM
I've used master crafted blades for decades. I tired of modules doling out way too much magic in the form of sword+1 and dagger+1 and so on. Better steel and better craftsmanship solves a lot of this problem, that and I limit magic items to a single one per hoard except in very rare cases such as dragon's hoards. D&D modules sure toss out way too much magic.

Last few years, I've done a variation on this that works well for me:  All +1 weapons are crafted, not magical.  However, magic was used to craft them, because the tech in the world isn't good enough to craft anything that fine without magic.  (And in my current setting, the physics of the world means that there's no way to get there without magic--i.e. no high quality steel possible any other way.)  Such items will faintly show as magical when someone is using the right spells to detect magic, from the residual effects of their crafting.  But they are not impeded by any anti-magic or other magic-canceling effects.

Might not work for everyone, but I'm getting a eat your cake and have it too thing out of doing it this way.  The characters are finding stuff that is setting off magic detection, are happy to get it because it's high quality.  They can often tell that the thing is high quality by looking at it.  Then when they do find the much rarer things that are actively magical, they sometimes don't catch on right away. When they do catch on, they get more excited.  It implies constantly that there is a lot of low-level magical stuff happening in the world, which creates to the fantastical feeling.  But there's very little overt magic items.

Picking up from the original thread:  In addition to a silver dagger being a "silvered" dagger and what that implies directly, I've always assumed that a major portion of the cost of a silvered weapon was the production of it, not the silver content.  Silvering something is not easy or cheap.  It may even require industrial technology to get something the way it is portrayed, which means you are looking at secret elf or dwarf processes or even outright magic to do it.

In fact, it was thinking about silvered weapons that gave me the idea that I explained in the previous post.  I wanted to extend that concept, because the setting had an expanded role for silvered weapons. 

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors.

Theory of Games,

Some do! I asked this very question last year (2022.) Sadly, no one got my Pawn Stars joke. Or worse, just ignored it. (sad trombone noise.)

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/ye-old-magic-shoppe/

I didn't realize it had been discussed before, in 2020:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/magic-items-for-sale-ose-bx-other-osr/

And also in 2012:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/your-opinion-on-the-magic-shop/

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 11:45:36 AM
One thing I'm starting to dislike running OSR adventures* is the insane amount of treasure and magical items that you find.

[...]

My PCs are level 5 and don't have much to do with their money, unless I start charging for small expenses

You have not mentioned which edition or clone version you are using. But in AD&D1e, there are four possible expenses of significance, and one extra consideration.

Firstly, training to level up. The DM assigns each player a rating of 1 to 4 on how well they played their character. Fighters should fight, thieves steal, and so on.

When the character gets enough XP to qualify for the next level, they stop gaining any more XP, and can go train. This takes one week for their current level, multiplied by that rating. So 1st to 2nd level takes 1-4 weeks, 2nd to 3rd level takes 2-8 weeks, and so on.

Each week costs 1,500GP. Thus, 1st to 2nd level would be 1,500-6,000GP, 2nd to 3rd level 3,000-12,000GP, and so on.

This assumes they can find a trainer - if not, they can train themselves, but it takes twice as long and thus costs twice as much. Thus, 1st to 2nd level would be 3,000-12,000GP, 2nd to 3rd level 6,000-24,000GP, and so on.

And so you can see that it's quite possible that a character could have enough XP to qualify for the next level, but not have enough GP to pay to level up. This slows character advancement as you get characters adventuring to get more GP even while maxed out on XP. It also gives them an incentive to sell off those surplus magic items you're complaining about.

Secondly, living expenses. Each character must expend no less than 100GP per level monthly. That includes while training to level up. So a 1st level character needs 1,200GP annually just to keep them in the lifestyle they've become accustomed to, a 2nd 2,400GP, a 3rd 3,600GP, and so on.

Thirdly, henchmen expenses. Henchmen must also be kept as PCs are, 100GP per level monthly. So if Frodo a 6th level thief keeps Boromir a 5th level fighter as his henchman, he must spend 600GP a month for himself and 500GP a month for Boromir, for 13,200GP in all.

But henchmen also get a treasure share. Nowhere is it specified what this must be, but obviously a greater share promised makes them more likely to sign up in the first place, and even more obviously a share of zero will give the henchman zero interest in signing up. Commonly we see henchmen offered 1 share where PCs get 2 shares. For example, Frodo and Sam adventure together as PCs with Boromir and Merry as their henchmen. Frodo and Sam get 2 shares each, and Boromir and Merry 1 share each, for a total of 6 shares. With some shares going to henchmen, there will be less for PCs to accumulate for whatever purpose.

Fourthly, hirelings. PCs going off into the wilderness will be simply unable to carry all the necessary food, roughage for animals, tents and so on and so forth. They will need to hire teamsters, cooks, labourers, men-at-arms and so on. These all have relatively nominal salaries, however when they see thousands of gold floating around, they might reasonably start asking for a bit more, and their costs will become more significant. This is particularly so for men-at-arms, since the PCs will be asking them to risk their lives - and some of them will die.

The last consideration is death. If you begin your campaign with everyone rolling their stats and hit points, and if you as DM do not give the players an easy time and fudge the dice to protect them from themselves, then you will find that several of the PCs will die as the campaign goes on. New PCs should start at 1st level, and should not automatically inherit the gear of the previous character. If you have had the same 3-6 PCs go from 1st to 5th level and none of them have died, then you've obviously fudged things to keep them alive.

Now, as DM you can make the game whatever you want. But the random treasures were put in assuming that all of the above would be happening, that PCs would be dying, that they would not have an easy time levelling up, and that they would have great expenses in levelling up, keeping henchmen and hirelings. If you choose to throw away rules X and Y, do not be surprised when rule Z doesn't work very well.

But again, it's your game. Just consider whether introducing X and Y might make Z work better for you.

Kyle's got the right of it.  People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly.  Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2023, 01:52:31 PM
Taxation is theft!

But I agree, the DM in my AD&D2e 2year+ ongoing campaign has us paying taxes for everything:

"So you will go to clean the mine from Goblins? Neat we'll pay you 1000 GP per adventurer."

"Welcome back adventurers! Here's your reward, minus the taxes you have to pay on it." (Mind you, if you wish to burden them or yourself with keeping track of the taxes you could make the tax man come only once per in game year).

As for magic items... Even in High Fantasy worlds I keep them rare, the good ones at least, you might get minor magic items easily but those are cheaper/faster/easier to do, the more powerful ones are increasingly rarer. Because they are powerful they are more valuable, and Ye Olde Magic Shoppe carries ingredients, you might find a lesser magic item for sale, but the good stuff never reaches the market, it's inherited, stolen or won as battle loot. Plus the King/Emperor or the Temples might have a claim over the more powerful items, only some times granting them as reward to the PCs.

On the other hand I include/allow some classes to have a profficiency in tending/curing some wounds/diseases, you'll not heal as fast as with a Cleric's Blessing or being tended by someone with better experience/education on those matters but you will not die from a minor wound.

I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that? I'm stuck in the dungeon I spoze. Great post!

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 01:54:23 PM
Yes, this is what I'm doing from now on.

It is strange - I have spent maybe a decade making my own adventures, then I got tired and started using published modules for another decade or so... and now I'm not that satisfied with them.

Maybe I'll find  a happy medium by taking existing adventures  and changing them  for my tastes.

I was there with you (designing my own adventures), but my setting was grimdark and deadly before it became a thing. With published modules, I can easily change what I don't like and the players don't get a TPK during the 1st combat. Do what's fun for you, that's the ticket 

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 23, 2023, 02:27:12 PM
One idea I nabbed from Earthdawn is leveling items. As the character advances, they can unlock more and better features from their magical items. This means you can be more stingy with magical items, but the items keep up with the power level of the character.

And I don't use gold for xp even in OSR style games. That just opens up too much of a can of worms with characters carting around buckets full of coins, and playing Medievial Tax Lawyer instead of getting their asses back into the adventure.

I like that "leveling item" idea and will probably steal it!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 23, 2023, 04:46:43 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 23, 2023, 02:27:12 PM
One idea I nabbed from Earthdawn is leveling items. As the character advances, they can unlock more and better features from their magical items.
This means you can be more stingy with magical items, but the items keep up with the power level of the character.

And I don't use gold for xp even in OSR style games. That just opens up too much of a can of worms with characters carting around buckets full of coins, and playing Medievial Tax Lawyer instead of getting their asses back into the adventure.

Stealing this for my games, thank you very much.

It's a great concept. I'm surprised more games don't do it.

Quote from: Brad on June 23, 2023, 03:18:33 PM

No idea what these criticisms are except theory-crafting. In play, never had any issues with this stuff.

Same here.