My problems with old school treasure

Theory of Games · June 25, 2023, 11:09:43 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on June 25, 2023, 10:28:07 AM
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that? I'm stuck in the dungeon I spoze. Great post!
They do, because they would realistically exist; anything rare and valuable has a market and to pretend otherwise is to deny human nature.

Now, a "magic item store" isn't going to be like a Walmart or something. That WOULD be silly. No, think luxury automobile and art dealerships. Think the market for high end yachts.

It's an elite group who only deals with established clientele (many of them rulers of realms) that probably requires an introduction from an existing client to even be introduced to them, and even then it's not a magic mart... it's a catalogue of available items they can sell to you. You don't even see the merchandise until the price has been negotiated and a meeting place for the exchange of goods is arranged.

And you don't insult them or you will find your ability to buy, sell and trade within this elite world could be cut off with the snap of a finger (and because they obviously keep the best items for themselves and their security).

Basically, it turns the whole process into adventures in and of themselves.

Since when is shopping "adventurous"?

No, the semi-adventure is the AD&D 1e MU having to scout around a town looking for a pinch of sand, a rose or a live cricket so they can perform their "Sleep" spell. THAT emulates the genre far better than visiting a store to browse their newest inventory. But, to each their own. Still, if I was a player and found out the city my PC was in had a magic store, it's definitely gettin' knocked over. Then I'd resell the stuff for 50% off and make a killing!

estar · June 25, 2023, 11:42:21 AM

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 25, 2023, 11:09:43 AM
Still, if I was a player and found out the city my PC was in had a magic store, it's definitely gettin' knocked over. Then I'd resell the stuff for 50% off and make a killing!

What you makes you certain that the magic shop hasn't accounted for people like you?

Especially in campaigns like mine where PCs owned magic shops and successfully figured out how to foil thieves trying to rob them.

Actually what developed was that the PCs escalated the risk of discovery and exposure to the point that serious threats were deterred. However nothing will stop a determined idiot who winds being caught later.

Mind you when I run my Majestic Wilderlands not all magic shops are buttoned up tight. Like in real life there is a spread.

Theory of Games · June 25, 2023, 11:56:29 AM

Quote from: estar on June 25, 2023, 11:42:21 AM
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 25, 2023, 11:09:43 AM
Still, if I was a player and found out the city my PC was in had a magic store, it's definitely gettin' knocked over. Then I'd resell the stuff for 50% off and make a killing!
What you makes you certain that the magic shop hasn't accounted for people like you?

Especially in campaigns like mine where PCs owned magic shops and successfully figured out how to foil thieves trying to rob them.

Actually what developed was that the PCs escalated the risk of discovery and exposure to the point that serious threats were deterred. However nothing will stop a determined idiot who winds being caught later.

Mind you when I run my Majestic Wilderlands not all magic shops are buttoned up tight. Like in real life there is a spread.

lol

VisionStorm · June 25, 2023, 11:57:55 AM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 24, 2023, 01:05:30 AM
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.

OR, maybe DMs could just tone down the amount of treasure awarded in their campaigns. Rather than work backwards from the assumption that characters are supposed to jump through a bunch of purely metagame hoops and added accounting BS just to justify characters getting excessive amounts of treasure that aren't really necessary and don't make sense in the context of the game world.

But nah. Accountants & Dragons is the right way to play the game. And there are rules for that.

thedungeondelver · June 25, 2023, 11:59:28 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 25, 2023, 11:57:55 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 24, 2023, 01:05:30 AM
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.

OR, maybe DMs could just tone down the amount of treasure awarded in their campaigns. Rather than work backwards from the assumption that characters are supposed to jump through a bunch of purely metagame hoops and added accounting BS just to justify characters getting excessive amounts of treasure that aren't really necessary and don't make sense in the context of the game world.

But nah. Accountants & Dragons is the right way to play the game. And there are rules for that.

Show me on the doll where AD&D touched you.

GeekyBugle · June 25, 2023, 12:11:09 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 25, 2023, 11:57:55 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 24, 2023, 01:05:30 AM
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.

OR, maybe DMs could just tone down the amount of treasure awarded in their campaigns. Rather than work backwards from the assumption that characters are supposed to jump through a bunch of purely metagame hoops and added accounting BS just to justify characters getting excessive amounts of treasure that aren't really necessary and don't make sense in the context of the game world.

But nah. Accountants & Dragons is the right way to play the game. And there are rules for that.

Which is why 10th level is the perfect level to retire your character and roll a new one, hell it could even be in the same campaign.

Theory of Games · June 25, 2023, 02:01:30 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 25, 2023, 11:59:28 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 25, 2023, 11:57:55 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 24, 2023, 01:05:30 AM
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.

OR, maybe DMs could just tone down the amount of treasure awarded in their campaigns. Rather than work backwards from the assumption that characters are supposed to jump through a bunch of purely metagame hoops and added accounting BS just to justify characters getting excessive amounts of treasure that aren't really necessary and don't make sense in the context of the game world.

But nah. Accountants & Dragons is the right way to play the game. And there are rules for that.

Show me on the doll where AD&D touched you.

VisionStorm · June 25, 2023, 03:24:54 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 25, 2023, 11:59:28 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 25, 2023, 11:57:55 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 24, 2023, 01:05:30 AM
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.

OR, maybe DMs could just tone down the amount of treasure awarded in their campaigns. Rather than work backwards from the assumption that characters are supposed to jump through a bunch of purely metagame hoops and added accounting BS just to justify characters getting excessive amounts of treasure that aren't really necessary and don't make sense in the context of the game world.

But nah. Accountants & Dragons is the right way to play the game. And there are rules for that.

Show me on the doll where AD&D touched you.

In the OSR.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 25, 2023, 12:11:09 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 25, 2023, 11:57:55 AM
Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 24, 2023, 01:05:30 AM
Kyle's got the right of it. People who complained about the "monty haul" nature of AD&D or that characters were festooned in excess magic items and so on weren't using the rules correctly. Treasure is meant to be spent and there's mechanics in the game for this.

OR, maybe DMs could just tone down the amount of treasure awarded in their campaigns. Rather than work backwards from the assumption that characters are supposed to jump through a bunch of purely metagame hoops and added accounting BS just to justify characters getting excessive amounts of treasure that aren't really necessary and don't make sense in the context of the game world.

But nah. Accountants & Dragons is the right way to play the game. And there are rules for that.

Which is why 10th level is the perfect level to retire your character and roll a new one, hell it could even be in the same campaign.

That's a separate issue from handling treasure, I think. But yeah, after 10th things start to get a bit ridiculous in D&D.

The Rearranger · June 25, 2023, 04:32:29 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 25, 2023, 11:09:43 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 25, 2023, 10:28:07 AM
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that? I'm stuck in the dungeon I spoze. Great post!
They do, because they would realistically exist; anything rare and valuable has a market and to pretend otherwise is to deny human nature.

Now, a "magic item store" isn't going to be like a Walmart or something. That WOULD be silly. No, think luxury automobile and art dealerships. Think the market for high end yachts.

It's an elite group who only deals with established clientele (many of them rulers of realms) that probably requires an introduction from an existing client to even be introduced to them, and even then it's not a magic mart... it's a catalogue of available items they can sell to you. You don't even see the merchandise until the price has been negotiated and a meeting place for the exchange of goods is arranged.

And you don't insult them or you will find your ability to buy, sell and trade within this elite world could be cut off with the snap of a finger (and because they obviously keep the best items for themselves and their security).

Basically, it turns the whole process into adventures in and of themselves.
Since when is shopping "adventurous"? No, the semi-adventure is the AD&D 1e MU having to scout around a town looking for a pinch of sand, a rose or a live cricket so they can perform their "Sleep" spell. THAT emulates the genre far better than visiting a store to browse their newest inventory. But, to each their own. Still, if I was a player and found out the city my PC was in had a magic store, it's definitely gettin' knocked over. Then I'd resell the stuff for 50% off and make a killing!

Why would a high level wizard pay rent (or security) with bags of holding and dimensional doors?

As for shopping, you're not thinking of what one crafter could make with what his enemies hold under lock and key. He casts message to the party and offers a trade. Then he gives his calling card.

Eric Diaz · June 25, 2023, 06:15:35 PM

I am not a big fan of magic shops, but saying +1 swords are just higher quality swords makes finding them in stores more sensible.

Potions... meh, I let my players buy them.

But actual magic, like a ring of X-ray vision? I don't like it. Maybe I'll be okay with that in a setting like Ravnica or Eberron. But in most settings I would say that even finding a market for this would be hard - for both buyers AND sellers!

Theory of Games · June 25, 2023, 06:17:51 PM

Quote from: The Rearranger on June 25, 2023, 04:32:29 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 25, 2023, 11:09:43 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 25, 2023, 10:28:07 AM
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that? I'm stuck in the dungeon I spoze. Great post!
They do, because they would realistically exist; anything rare and valuable has a market and to pretend otherwise is to deny human nature.

Now, a "magic item store" isn't going to be like a Walmart or something. That WOULD be silly. No, think luxury automobile and art dealerships. Think the market for high end yachts.

It's an elite group who only deals with established clientele (many of them rulers of realms) that probably requires an introduction from an existing client to even be introduced to them, and even then it's not a magic mart... it's a catalogue of available items they can sell to you. You don't even see the merchandise until the price has been negotiated and a meeting place for the exchange of goods is arranged.

And you don't insult them or you will find your ability to buy, sell and trade within this elite world could be cut off with the snap of a finger (and because they obviously keep the best items for themselves and their security).

Basically, it turns the whole process into adventures in and of themselves.
Since when is shopping "adventurous"? No, the semi-adventure is the AD&D 1e MU having to scout around a town looking for a pinch of sand, a rose or a live cricket so they can perform their "Sleep" spell. THAT emulates the genre far better than visiting a store to browse their newest inventory. But, to each their own. Still, if I was a player and found out the city my PC was in had a magic store, it's definitely gettin' knocked over. Then I'd resell the stuff for 50% off and make a killing!

Why would a high level wizard pay rent (or security) with bags of holding and dimensional doors?

As for shopping, you're not thinking of what one crafter could make with what his enemies hold under lock and key. He casts message to the party and offers a trade. Then he gives his calling card.

Youu aren't thinking big. The REAL money would be in Magic Safe Deposit Boxes! For spellbooks, treasure, magic items, what have ya. I'd clean-up! Different sizes and price-plans of course based on the clients needs and budget. Like candy from babies! They'd be coming out the dungeon and straight to me! After a few months or so I would upgrade to something like a Savings & Loan institution, offering better-established clientele extended lines of credit backed by their collateral investments.

I'd be the fkn J.P. Morgan of Greyhawk!!

The Rearranger · June 25, 2023, 06:51:54 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 25, 2023, 06:17:51 PM
Quote from: The Rearranger on June 25, 2023, 04:32:29 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 25, 2023, 11:09:43 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 25, 2023, 10:28:07 AM
Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 03:24:40 PM
I probably missed the thread on it but ... do GMs really have "Magic Stores" in their campaigns? I had seen stories but always thought they were nonsense rumors. I like "inherited, stolen or won": why haven't I used that? I'm stuck in the dungeon I spoze. Great post!
They do, because they would realistically exist; anything rare and valuable has a market and to pretend otherwise is to deny human nature.

Now, a "magic item store" isn't going to be like a Walmart or something. That WOULD be silly. No, think luxury automobile and art dealerships. Think the market for high end yachts.

It's an elite group who only deals with established clientele (many of them rulers of realms) that probably requires an introduction from an existing client to even be introduced to them, and even then it's not a magic mart... it's a catalogue of available items they can sell to you. You don't even see the merchandise until the price has been negotiated and a meeting place for the exchange of goods is arranged.

And you don't insult them or you will find your ability to buy, sell and trade within this elite world could be cut off with the snap of a finger (and because they obviously keep the best items for themselves and their security).

Basically, it turns the whole process into adventures in and of themselves.
Since when is shopping "adventurous"? No, the semi-adventure is the AD&D 1e MU having to scout around a town looking for a pinch of sand, a rose or a live cricket so they can perform their "Sleep" spell. THAT emulates the genre far better than visiting a store to browse their newest inventory. But, to each their own. Still, if I was a player and found out the city my PC was in had a magic store, it's definitely gettin' knocked over. Then I'd resell the stuff for 50% off and make a killing!

Why would a high level wizard pay rent (or security) with bags of holding and dimensional doors?

As for shopping, you're not thinking of what one crafter could make with what his enemies hold under lock and key. He casts message to the party and offers a trade. Then he gives his calling card.
Youu aren't thinking big. The REAL money would be in Magic Safe Deposit Boxes! For spellbooks, treasure, magic items, what have ya. I'd clean-up! Different sizes and price-plans of course based on the clients needs and budget. Like candy from babies! They'd be coming out the dungeon and straight to me! After a few months or so I would upgrade to something like a Savings & Loan institution, offering better-established clientele extended lines of credit backed by their collateral investments.

I'd be the fkn J.P. Morgan of Greyhawk!!

Magic Safe Deposit Boxes? Sounds like the vaults of a mage's guild or college. You might be in for some competition, or an invoice for dues, if not censorship or outright bounties. Entrepreneurial pursuits aren't without their risks though.

Brad · June 25, 2023, 07:21:52 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 24, 2023, 09:13:15 AM
The OP explains that I only noticed this in actual play, by level 5 (after more than a dozen sessions) without any theory crafting.

There must be a dozen people in this thread in the same situation already, look at all the examples above.

If you're not going to use all the rules, you may encounter problems, that's true. Just like when people tell me how long Monopoly takes to play then go, "HUH!?!?," when you ask if they use the rules for mortgaging properties and auctioning them off. The way most people play AD&D handwaves A LOT of assumed paradigms which result in issues that don't exist if you're playing by-the-book.

Also, all the bullshit about "metagaming hoops" is just code for "I am taking this too seriously". It's a fucking game. There are elements of the game that exist to make it fun to play that might not be entirely realistic. So the fuck what?

VisionStorm · June 25, 2023, 08:58:43 PM

The OSR: Rulings not Rules! All those nu-school gamers and all their rules for everything. What a buncha tards! LULZ

Also the OSR: Why aren't you letting the rules micromanage your in-game economy and adding a buncha hoops and middlemen to make excess treasure work?

Me: Probably cuz I'm not a fucking retard trying to chase my own tail by adding shit I don't need into the game only to rely on a bunch of bullshit rules and superfluous accounting nonsense to fix what would never have been broken if I hadn't added needless shit to begin with.

Wisithir · June 25, 2023, 09:19:03 PM

Some games insist on trying to have rules for everything and disallowing anything not in the rules. Others have few rules and rely on a arbiter to adjudicate most actions referring to the rules only as necessary. In either case, removing a rule from play without replacing it with a suitable alternative can completely break the core player experience that the game is built around. Moreover, not everything that contributes to a satisfying overall experience can be satisfying in and of itself.