One thing I'm starting to dislike running OSR adventures* is the insane amount of treasure and magical items that you find. In addition, the more I read the DMG, the more I feel they were just too generous with treasure and had to come up of endless ways of spending it (training, upkeep, research, rust monster, disenchanter, etc.).

(* I've been running DCC, LotFP and BFRPG adventures)

One important caveat: I'm talking about old school games because it has been a while since I've played 5e or other games. I don't remember this being a big issue then, but this could have many reasons (for example, Curse of Strahd is not full of magic items, but it also gives you lots of gold and few things to buy).

Anyway, I have three main issues with treasure in OSR adventures.

Magic items

There are just too many to keep track of. My current party has around 3-4 magic items per player at level 5. Each item has different powers, and simple "+1 swords" are getting rarer as each adventure prefers having unique, interesting items (I cannot blame them). 

I prefer something grittier, with a Sword & Sorcery vibe, which makes things worse. Conan never gets too many magic items, but even the Fellowship of the Ring gets no more than one or two per character.

Come to think of it, not even in the highest of high fantasy books a "medium level" party has that many magic items. In AD&D, a paladin is LIMITED to TEN magic items!

The problem is that giving away fewer magic weapons and armor leaves little room for improvement of old school fighters (and paladins), for example.

Earning and spending

My PCs are level 5 and don't have much to do with their money, unless I start charging for small expenses, note keeping, etc. At least now it will you start affecting their encumbrance (and they find  cleric willing to cure a curse for a steep price).

Conan, Grey Mouser etc. would spend some money drinking and gambling, but I can't force the PCs to do the same. Even Conan didn't buy a kingdom - he took one!

In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of any fantasy hero counting coins. There is one notable exception (Geralt of Rivia), but most heroes are either broke or "rich" with things that are not money: followers, titles, lands, etc.

Gold standard

I have tried defending the gold standard before.

Now, I'm finding increasingly difficult to wrap my head around the idea that a ONE POUND silver dagger costs THREE pounds of gold, while simultaneously making gold TEN times the value of silver.

Maybe you could pretend that gold and silver are so common that one week of food (or just one garlic) costs half a pound of gold, but you occasionally find small pieces of jewelry that are worth two to ten pounds of gold.

That assumes everything has some exquisite craftsmanship... or some other reasoning.

Of course, changing these absurd weights will you make it too easy to carry a fortune without affecting encumbrance.

Solutions

For a S&S vibe, I could replace some magic items by "masterwork" items of ancient civilizations, maybe with +1 to hit OR damage. Alternatively, we could go the  Game of Thrones route and make different qualities of weapons. "Castle forged" swords are high quality, equivalent to +1 swords, and Valyrian Steel are +2 or +3, without any enchantments, just because the material/crafting is superior.

It would be appropriate and flavorful, and fighters could identify them immediately (without the need of a spell or specialist) - and they'd still get customization through feats.

Old school D&D has enough things to spend money on. The problem is my PCs are hoarders. A good solution I've seen elsewhere is giving XP for money spent. This will give them a reason to drink, gamble, etc. And maybe you can occasionally find a trainer that doubles the amount of XP you get for the money spent.

The silver standard is a good solution for the value of gold. I'd also reduce the amount of treasure altogether, maybe ten times - you could reduce the XP requirements accordingly.

NOTES:

DMG and treasure
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/06/ad-dmg-cover-to-cover-part-iii-pages-23.html

Gold x silver
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2019/08/the-weight-of-gold-is-od-right-again.html

My question: what are your experiences with treasure in OSR games? How do you deal with it?

Treasure Type Table:                Individual             Patrol      Lair
d6               Value              Value          Value      Value
01-02       Salvage (low)       d10sp          xd3         xd10
03-04       Loot (average)       d12 x10sp       xd6         xd20
05-06       Treasure (high)            d12 x100sp       xd12         xd30
   
This table replaces for me the typical multi entry tables in most games. I prefer to roll the amount and then make up the hoard with trade goods, supplies, artwork, etc. The least amount is going to be in coins.

I have converted to a silver piece economy where the typical peasant earns 1 SP per day. Not in coin mind you.

For magic items I use:

Enchantment Duration:

Charms: These require expensive components and difficult rituals.
May either be:
    1. 1 use or 1 day, until dawn or dusk
    2. Charm Spell Dice Magic Focus or Spell Casting Charm

Minor Magic Items: 1 moon, a month or 1 season, 3 months. These require expensive components and difficult rituals.

Moderate Magic Items: 1 year or until next solstice of winter. These require rare and expensive components, long enchantment times, and difficult rituals.

Major Magic Items: Permanent items or potent effects. These require extremely rare and expensive components, long enchantment times, and difficult rituals.

Each magic item requires it's own unique creation ritual.

When the magic expires, the item may be recharged using 1/100 of the initial cost and 1/10 of imbuement time. This reduction can not be reduce below one.

Enchantment Effects:

Charms: +1 and Limited effects. Magic Weapons: +1-2. Magic Armor: +1. +1 to +3 to save from a specific spell.

Minor Magic Items: +1 and small effects. Magic Weapons: +1. Magic Armor: +1. +2 to save +5 from a specific spell.

Moderate Magic Items: +2 and medium effects. Magic Weapons: +2-3. Magic Armor: +2. Save with advantage  from a specific spell.

Major Magic Items: +3 and large effects. Magic Weapons: +4-5. Magic Armor: +3. Complete protection from a specific spell.

Recharging magic items requires magic components and money. So that gives a reason for why they are limited and why go on an adventure. Also all enchantable items must be made of the finest quality, with the required quality increasing for high powered enchantments.

So Swords & Wizardry (based on OD&D) has a specific way of generating treasure based on the value of the hoard. There are three tiers 100 gp, 1,000 gp, and 5,000 gp.

So the way it works is that you set a treasure value. Say 6,534 gp.  There is a 10% of a 5,000 gp swap out. If you roll it then roll on another table to see what you get in terms of gems and magic items. The same for each 1,000 gp value. A 10% chance of a 1,000 gp swap out. And finally a 10% chance of a 100 gp swap out.

The default for Swords & Wizardry for a swap out is it results in a 90% chance of a gem and a 10% chance of a magic item.

The beauty of this setup is that is easily tweaked for how common magic is in your setting. Also, it is easily tweaked if you decided to use the silver standard like I do.

The downside is that there is a lot of rolling.

For my Majestic Fantasy RPG which is based on Swords & Wizardry. I changed it to the following.

Instead of a 10% chance of a swap there is a 25% chance of a swap.
Instead of 1 in 20 chance of a magic item being in the treasure. There is a 75% chance of a magic item. Along with a 15% chance of multiple items of a lesser tier.

The way I figured this out was to code up my tables for Inspiration Pad Pro and generated 100s of treasure hordes of the same value and see if it was something I would have come up with on my own. I kept tweaking the trade out odds and the trade out tables until it started to look like what I would have come up with for that value of treasure.

So for Swords & Wizardry for a value of 6,534 gp you got this for 20 tries.

1->  Jewelry worth 50 gp, Jewelry worth 73 gp , Gem worth 118 gp, 6293 gp
2->  6534 gp
3->  Jewelry worth 90 gp , Gem worth 2 gp, 6442 gp
4->  6534 gp
5->  6534 gp
6->  6534 gp
7->  Gem worth 1200 gp, 5334 gp
8->  Jewelry worth 126 gp, 6408 gp
9->  6534 gp
10-> 6534 gp
11-> Gem worth 200 gp, Gem worth 5 gp, 6329 gp
12-> Gem worth 22 gp, 6512 gp
13-> Jewelry worth 123 gp, 6411 gp
14-> 6534 gp
15-> Jewelry worth 2 gp , Gem worth 3 gp, 6529 gp
16-> Charm of Magic Missile , Jewelry worth 1800 gp, 4634 gp
17-> 6534 gp
18-> 6534 gp
19-> Gem worth 10 gp, 6524 gp
20-> 6534 gp

With mine for 6,534d (1d = sp) I get

1->   3 Bolts with +1 damage only , Scroll of Sticks to Snakes , Potion of Plant Control, 9 marks (2160d), 3864d
2->   Scroll of Detect Magic , Potion of Flying, Potion of Diminution, 2 crowns (640d), 6750d
3->   Scroll of Purify Food and Drink , Potion of Heroism, Potion of Healing, 7 crowns (2240d), 2587d
4->   Potion of Undead Control, 1 crowns (320d), 922d
5->   Scroll of Magic Missile , Potion of Extra Healing, 6 crowns (1920d), 2871d
6->   Charm of Cure Light Wounds , Brass Anklet with Lapis Lazuli Gem (14d), Bone Comb (1d), 3 marks (720d), 5194d
7->   Potion of Gaseous Form, Potion of Healing, Potion of Gaseous Form, 11 marks (2640d), 5252d
8->   Manual of Influence, 1 Arrows with +2 damage only, 2 Darts with +2 damage only, 1 crowns (320d), 860d
9->   +1 Medium Shield , Charm of Sleep, Scroll of Charm Person, Scroll of Purify Food and Drink , Potion of Healing, Potion of Healing, Potion of Heroism , Brass Pendent (1d) , Ruby Gem (1000d), 2 crowns (640d), 5719d
10->  Cursed Battle Axe causes wearer to run away from combat., 1 Bolts with +2 damage only , Potion of Levitation, Potion of Clairaudience, Potion of Heroism, Potion of Healing, 8 marks (1920d), 2679d
11->  Scroll of Detect Evil , Potion of Gaseous Form, Potion of Healing , Rock Crystal Gem (5d), 6 crowns (1920d), 2268d
12->  Small Dagger with +1 damage only , Scroll of Light, Scroll of Read Languages, Charm of Command , Potion of Healing, Potion of Healing, Potion of Healing , Jasper Gem (25d), 6 crowns (1920d), 2837d
13->  +1 Shortsword, Broadsword with +1 versus Dragons, 11 marks (2640d), 3190d
14->  Scroll of Purify Food and Drink , Potion of Healing, Potion of Gaseous Form, Potion of Healing, 7 crowns (2240d), 5576d
15->  War Hammer with Light 30' radius , Potion of Animal Control , Gold Ring (180d) , Rock Crystal Gem (5d), 7 crowns (2240d), 4340d
16->  Charm of Cure Light Wounds, Charm of Sleep , Silver Tiara with Religious Carvings (100d), 7 crowns (2240d), 2558d
17->  +1 Small Shield, 11 marks (2640d), 2773d
18->  +1 Small Dagger, 12 marks (2880d), 4993d
19->  Charm of Extension III, Scroll of Charm Person, 1 crowns (320d), 1033d
20->  Large Dagger with Light 15' radius, 1 Darts with +3 damage only, Dart with Return Weapon , Scroll of Monster Summoning VI, Scroll of Magic Missile, Scroll of Shield , Potion of Healing, Potion of Diminution, Potion of Climbing, Potion of Healing, Potion of Climbing , Bone Tiara (12d), 395d

For some this may be too magic rich but like I said, tweak the trade outs to get the exact mix you want.

If you want to play with this yourself then Inspiration Pad Pro is free from nBos.
https://www.nbos.com/products/inspiration-pad-pro

My swords & wizardry table ipt file is here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ymr-kTXN-AGkYsLmizKakDVSMvt_oXas/view?usp=sharing

My Majestic Fantasy table ipt file is here.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TE0_7oNuCfLoebqaH8BS-PEtz-e3HcQK/view?usp=sharing

I also made variants for personal items (work in progress) and magic shops.

You can go here for links on how I price out things in silver pieces for equipment, herbs, potions, magic items, etc.

https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/p/stuff-in-attic.html

PM me if you would like a draft copy of my treasure rules for my Majestic Fantasy RPG.

In my experience, XP for gold spent solves several problems.  Both within the fiction on the game and on a purely mechanical level it creates a reason for the character to risk death pulling money out of some awful hole.  The characters are eternally broke, and the players want to level up their characters.  If you actually have useful things to buy, only awarding XP for gold wasted can force players to really consider their characters long-term financial plans.  Do you want to level up, or do you want to build that keep?

The solution to excessive magic items is consumables.  I give out a lot of one-use items that mimic spells or spell-like effects.  In place of magic weapons and armor I tend to give out items that grant temporary bonuses to weapons and/or armor.  i.e. enchanted oil that grants and item +2 for 6 turns.  This way permanent magic items become precious, and you aren't faced with players tossing away magic swords like rubbish.  Which has always disturbed me.  Throwing away Sting for Glamdring just feels wrong.       

Quote from: swzl on June 23, 2023, 12:12:40 PM
Treasure Type Table:                Individual             Patrol      Lair
d6               Value              Value          Value      Value
01-02       Salvage (low)       d10sp          xd3         xd10
03-04       Loot (average)       d12 x10sp       xd6         xd20
05-06       Treasure (high)            d12 x100sp       xd12         xd30
   
This table replaces for me the typical multi entry tables in most games. I prefer to roll the amount and then make up the hoard with trade goods, supplies, artwork, etc. The least amount is going to be in coins.

I have converted to a silver piece economy where the typical peasant earns 1 SP per day. Not in coin mind you.

Neat, I like something in the same ballpark.

Come to think of it,  it would be easy to make a d20 table of treasure types, once you get the value: trade goods, magic, art, gold, silver, cooper, gems, etc.

Quote from: estar on June 23, 2023, 12:38:06 PM
So Swords & Wizardry (based on OD&D) has a specific way of generating treasure based on the value of the hoard. There are three tiers 100 gp, 1,000 gp, and 5,000 gp.

So the way it works is that you set a treasure value. Say 6,534 gp.  There is a 10% of a 5,000 gp swap out. If you roll it then roll on another table to see what you get in terms of gems and magic items. The same for each 1,000 gp value. A 10% chance of a 1,000 gp swap out. And finally a 10% chance of a 100 gp swap out.

The default for Swords & Wizardry for a swap out is it results in a 90% chance of a gem and a 10% chance of a magic item.

This is pretty neat TBH. If I understand it right, you could reduce rolls, doing:

1% chance of an item worth 5,000 gp.
9% chance of gems worth 5,000 gp.
90% of something else.

Then you could roll for each 1000 individually, but to make things faster I might try (not the same probabilities but good enough for me):

6% chance of an item worth 1,000 gp.
60% chance of gems worth 1,000 gp.
34% of something else.

And the same for the last final 100 gp.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 11:45:36 AM
Magic items

There are just too many to keep track of. My current party has around 3-4 magic items per player at level 5. Each item has different powers, and simple "+1 swords" are getting rarer as each adventure prefers having unique, interesting items (I cannot blame them). 

You're not supposed to let them keep them.

Look, this is, always has been, and always be a dilemma about magic items. It's fun to get new ones. But when you have too many, they become valued less. And part of the fun of getting new ones is that they are valued. So this in term diminishes the value of getting new ones.

DM advice has long consisting of finger wagging warning DMs that they need to be stingy or else. And it's pretty easy to see why. If you give out zero magic items, that's no fun. They may be highly valuable, but you never get any. And if you give out infinity magic items, that's no fun either, since they become functionally value-less--the pain in the ass of tracking them exceeds the fun they bring to the game. Sounds like that may be the point where you're at.

"Stingy" in this contest refers to hitting that sweet spot in the middle. The traditional advice is something like "It's like a spectrum, man, not a binary, maan. And you need to like, find the right balance maaan. And like, we've all got different preferences, maaaan. So where you find your balance is not going to be where I find mine, maaaaan." And that's full of irrefutable truths that amount to no actual useful information or actionable advice.

So allow me to humbly suggest that this is a completely idiotic way to look at or approach the dilemma. And it's almost guaranteed to make you run into the problem you're running into. The tastes of the audience the modules were written for may vary from your own tastes, and so the odds the source material and the player will ever line up exactly is pretty much always going to be a long shot. That's what makes this approach inherently moronic.

The way I look at it is easy come, easy go. Reducing the number of magic items players get is only one way you can reduce devaluation and reduce tracking. Another way is to reduce how long PCs keep those items. And the game provides a number of different mechanisms for magic items to flow out of the game.

1. Training costs. Especially at those lower levels, it's nearly impossible to pay those training costs. But the GP sale values of magic items are pretty high and make it easy to cover those costs. A 1st level character is going to be more than happy to give up a +1 sword in exchange for being able to level up.
2. If you look at those same old school modules that you think give out too much treasure, I think far more obvious is that if the party of the size and level the module is recommended for tries to fight everything in there, it will be a TPK. You have to run. And I know some DMs find it so refreshing that a party ever run, they handwave them getting away. Wouldn't want monsters to kill the party with a round of free attacks. No. That would discourage them from running in the future and would make the game a juvenile hackfest. Well, actually the 1E Evasion & Pursuit section of the DMG does detail out some ways the party can get away, especially if the monster has a faster movement rate. And sometimes you just got to throw down swag. For semi-intelligent monsters and lower, food is the perfect "enemy bait" (ah, Legend of Zelda). For low intelligence, it's bright and shiny objects, quantity over quality. And for human intelligence and above, you have to drop the good shit.
3. Item saves. Yeah, usually magic items are pretty tough, especially when used according to manufacturer specs. A shield used to block gets an extra +5 to the save for using it for the very thing it's made to do, for instance. But there are extraordinary attacks out there, fire, acid, lightning, cold, a giant's fist, falls, etc.
4. I know of at least some old-school adventures that actually has things like an encounter with a high level evil wizard who just takes a magic item from the party. Magic, thievery, it's not that hard to come up with encounters that do this. Evil Wizard casts Fear, orc minions attack any party member who makes their safe while Evil Wizard queues up a Hold Person. Incapacitate, get the item (thanks to Detect Magic he knows exactly what to grab), then get out of there.
5. Environmental hazards and pitfalls can also result in the loss of items. Plenty of old school modules have dungeons that are partially flooded. There's a good chance you'll lose some shit if you try wading or swimming through the water. Pits. Lots and lots of pits. You can lose a grip on shit, or have shit fall out of your pocket when you fall into pits. Falling is also one of the perils that can trigger an item save.
6. Loyalty and henchmen. Giving a valuable item, a bonus, or especially a magic item to a henchmen comes with a loyalty boost. And besides, it kind of benefits you a lot to have well-outfitted henchmen.


Now I know there are objections to this. But muh agency. As early as 3E, there are certain expectations about the number of magic items you need to have for the CR system to function properly. And also, I think Magic-Users have to give half of a testicle or something when creating a magic item, so players feel like they have some inalienable right to those magic items. Or that may even just be a preference. Like batman is just not the same character without his utility belt. Players may feel that way about their character's magic items. They've become part of the costume, part of the character, and even part of the character's niche or function within the party dynamic.

The problem is, no matter how preferred that may be, it leads you to a place of zero fun due to absence of items, zero fun due to abundance of items, or near-zero fun because the source material didn't strike the exact balance you would like. If that's where the path takes you, it's the wrong path to take, regardless of how preferred the path is thought to be. It's checkmate in 3 moves. Not everyone's got the eyes for it. Not having the eyes doesn't keep a player or group from having certain preferences. But mate is mate, mate. It's a loser of a path no matter what players like or dislike. There just needs to be a treasure/magic-item flow both in and out of the game.

Quote
Gold standard

I have tried defending the gold standard before.

Now, I'm finding increasingly difficult to wrap my head around the idea that a ONE POUND silver dagger costs THREE pounds of gold, while simultaneously making gold TEN times the value of silver.

Maybe you could pretend that gold and silver are so common that one week of food (or just one garlic) costs half a pound of gold, but you occasionally find small pieces of jewelry that are worth two to ten pounds of gold.

That assumes everything has some exquisite craftsmanship... or some other reasoning.

Of course, changing these absurd weights will you make it too easy to carry a fortune without affecting encumbrance.
tion: what are your experiences with treasure in OSR games? How do you deal with it?

I don't get it. You're willing to allow for certain excuses and assumptions. Just not the ones that actually solve the problem?

How about one that's actually in the rulebooks. Encumbrance is not weight. Never has been. A gold piece is not 1/10 of a pound. 30 gp is not three pounds of gold.

1E lists the enc value of a relatively short list of items. I think RC D&D is probably a bit more comprehensive at that. So you've got game data. And you've got Google, to try to find out what the actual weight of such objects were way back in the middle ages. What I've found when I tried to compare those things is that items in D&D are usually 2 to 5 times the encumbrance that you would expect from a simple 10 cn = 1 lb conversion. And the 1E PHB tells you exactly why that is. Because Enc is not just weight. It's also factoring bulk, balance, and all those things that makes something hard to carry.

Being that the values come in 2-5 times higher than what you'd expect, it becomes clearer that those other factors are stacked on top of weight. It's not like, "Oh, this box of macaroni weighs 2-pounds, so 20 enc... oh, but it has a convenient little handle making it easier to carry. Let's call this one just 17 enc. But that 2-pound sack of feathers, that's big and bulky and has no handle, so we'll call that one 25 enc." It's not like 2 pound items are going to gravitate around 20 enc like a center. It's that they're going to have a minimum 20 enc, PLUS additional amounts if they're hard to carry for some reason.


So yeah, coins definitely not 1.6 oz

Moreover, the 1E PHB's note on coins assumes the coins are roughly of similar size and weight. But of course gold is about twice as dense as most other metals. So what does roughly similar size and weight mean in that context? The most obvious thing is that gold has slightly more weight but slightly less volume than most other coins. What does slightly mean? By the least amount that is logically consistent. But the point is, the weights of coins necessarily vary if you're going by the book. I only bring this up to emphasize that not only is the 10 cn = 1 lb not the one true BtB interpretation, it's not even in the range of possible BtB interpretations. And I'm not saying this insight necessarily solves all problems. It has for me. I'm just saying I've never seen anyone make the same sort of complaint you're making here without needing to hang their hat on a conversation that is not actually a part of the rules. Just saying. Maybe look more in this directly for ways to make the numbers make sense.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 11:45:36 AM
My question: what are your experiences with treasure in OSR games? How do you deal with it?

Why are they hoarding coin? Are they Dwarves? Gygax explains how to handle it:

QuoteWhat society can exist without revenues? What better means of assuring revenues than taxation, and all of the names used in the title of this section are synonymous with taxes - but if it is called something different perhaps the populace won't take too much umbrage at having to pay and pay and pay . . . It is important in most campaigns to take excess monies away from player characters and taxation is one of the better means of accomplishing this end. The form and frequency of taxation depends upon the locale and the social structure. Duties are typically paid on goods brought into a country or subdivision thereof, so any furs, tapestries, etc. brought into a town for sale will probably be subject to duty. Excises are typically sums paid to belong to a particular profession or practice a certain calling; in addition, on excise can be levied against foreign currency, for example, in order to change it into the less remarkable coin of the realm. Fees can be levied for lust about any reason - entering a city gate is a good one for non-citizens.

Tariffs are much the same as duties, but let us suppose that this is levied against only certain items when purchased - rather o surtax, or it can be used against goods not covered by the duty list. Taxes are typically paid only by residents and citizens of the municipality and include those sums for upkeep of roads and streets, walls gates, and municipal expenses for administration and services. Taxation is not necessarily an annual affair, for special taxes can be levied whenever needful, particularly upon sales, services, and foreigners in general. Tithes are principally religious taxation, although there is no prohibition against the combination of the from all sums brought into the community by any resident, the monies going to the religious organization sponsored by the community or to that of the character's choosing, at your option. (Of course, any religious organizations within a municipality will have to pay heavy taxes unless they are officially recognized by the authorities.) Tolls, finally, are sums paid for the use of a road, bridge, ferry, etc. They are paid according to the numbers of persons, animals, carts wagons, and possibly even materials transported.

As D/GM YOU control how much coin the party gets and how much they keep, not the players. First thing with any published module is to go through it and adjust it to your liking. Change the monsters up, cut the listed coin in half (at least) and remove all magic items.

Magic items should be very rare. Or, you end up with the classic "Monty Haul" campaign where the PCs strut around like Christmas trees due to their arsenal of magic items. And like children, the players won't appreciate it, instead getting spoiled and expecting to find the Magic Dollar Store™ in every dungeon they explore. When you rework the module, have just one magic item for each PC. I ask players what magic item they'd like for their PCs, then if they survive the gauntlet, they find those items ONLY.

Conan and other S&S characters didn't strut around dripping gold and magic items, and neither should the players' PCs if you want to maintain a S&S tone. Your campaign must be entertaining for you, or unless you're being paid as a professional GM, why run it?

Quote from: Dark Train on June 23, 2023, 12:42:06 PM
The solution to excessive magic items is consumables.  I give out a lot of one-use items that mimic spells or spell-like effects.  In place of magic weapons and armor I tend to give out items that grant temporary bonuses to weapons and/or armor.  i.e. enchanted oil that grants and item +2 for 6 turns.  This way permanent magic items become precious, and you aren't faced with players tossing away magic swords like rubbish.  Which has always disturbed me.  Throwing away Sting for Glamdring just feels wrong.     

A good idea indeed.

Quote from: Lunamancer on June 23, 2023, 01:24:26 PM
You're not supposed to let them keep them.

Look, this is, always has been, and always be a dilemma about magic items. It's fun to get new ones. But when you have too many, they become valued less. And part of the fun of getting new ones is that they are valued. So this in term diminishes the value of getting new ones.

DM advice has long consisting of finger wagging warning DMs that they need to be stingy or else. And it's pretty easy to see why. If you give out zero magic items, that's no fun. They may be highly valuable, but you never get any. And if you give out infinity magic items, that's no fun either, since they become functionally value-less--the pain in the ass of tracking them exceeds the fun they bring to the game. Sounds like that may be the point where you're at.

"Stingy" in this contest refers to hitting that sweet spot in the middle. The traditional advice is something like "It's like a spectrum, man, not a binary, maan. And you need to like, find the right balance maaan. And like, we've all got different preferences, maaaan. So where you find your balance is not going to be where I find mine, maaaaan." And that's full of irrefutable truths that amount to no actual useful information or actionable advice.

So allow me to humbly suggest that this is a completely idiotic way to look at or approach the dilemma. And it's almost guaranteed to make you run into the problem you're running into. The tastes of the audience the modules were written for may vary from your own tastes, and so the odds the source material and the player will ever line up exactly is pretty much always going to be a long shot. That's what makes this approach inherently moronic.

Agreed. The DMG seems to suggest repeatedly that you should be stingy/keep PCs on a tight leash, but this isn't practical advice, especially because I'm running published modules.

Quote from: Lunamancer on June 23, 2023, 01:24:26 PM
The way I look at it is easy come, easy go. Reducing the number of magic items players get is only one way you can reduce devaluation and reduce tracking. Another way is to reduce how long PCs keep those items. And the game provides a number of different mechanisms for magic items to flow out of the game.

1. Training costs. Especially at those lower levels, it's nearly impossible to pay those training costs. But the GP sale values of magic items are pretty high and make it easy to cover those costs. A 1st level character is going to be more than happy to give up a +1 sword in exchange for being able to level up.
2. If you look at those same old school modules that you think give out too much treasure, I think far more obvious is that if the party of the size and level the module is recommended for tries to fight everything in there, it will be a TPK. You have to run. And I know some DMs find it so refreshing that a party ever run, they handwave them getting away. Wouldn't want monsters to kill the party with a round of free attacks. No. That would discourage them from running in the future and would make the game a juvenile hackfest. Well, actually the 1E Evasion & Pursuit section of the DMG does detail out some ways the party can get away, especially if the monster has a faster movement rate. And sometimes you just got to throw down swag. For semi-intelligent monsters and lower, food is the perfect "enemy bait" (ah, Legend of Zelda). For low intelligence, it's bright and shiny objects, quantity over quality. And for human intelligence and above, you have to drop the good shit.
3. Item saves. Yeah, usually magic items are pretty tough, especially when used according to manufacturer specs. A shield used to block gets an extra +5 to the save for using it for the very thing it's made to do, for instance. But there are extraordinary attacks out there, fire, acid, lightning, cold, a giant's fist, falls, etc.
4. I know of at least some old-school adventures that actually has things like an encounter with a high level evil wizard who just takes a magic item from the party. Magic, thievery, it's not that hard to come up with encounters that do this. Evil Wizard casts Fear, orc minions attack any party member who makes their safe while Evil Wizard queues up a Hold Person. Incapacitate, get the item (thanks to Detect Magic he knows exactly what to grab), then get out of there.
5. Environmental hazards and pitfalls can also result in the loss of items. Plenty of old school modules have dungeons that are partially flooded. There's a good chance you'll lose some shit if you try wading or swimming through the water. Pits. Lots and lots of pits. You can lose a grip on shit, or have shit fall out of your pocket when you fall into pits. Falling is also one of the perils that can trigger an item save.
6. Loyalty and henchmen. Giving a valuable item, a bonus, or especially a magic item to a henchmen comes with a loyalty boost. And besides, it kind of benefits you a lot to have well-outfitted henchmen.

I like these!

However, I didn't find the modules I ran particularly hard for the amount of treasure.

Giving a magic item to a henchmen is cool both in flavor and in practice - if there is a TPK, the henchmen can become a new PC!

Quote from: Lunamancer on June 23, 2023, 01:24:26 PM
I don't get it. You're willing to allow for certain excuses and assumptions. Just not the ones that actually solve the problem?

How about one that's actually in the rulebooks. Encumbrance is not weight. Never has been. A gold piece is not 1/10 of a pound. 30 gp is not three pounds of gold.

1E lists the enc value of a relatively short list of items. I think RC D&D is probably a bit more comprehensive at that. So you've got game data. And you've got Google, to try to find out what the actual weight of such objects were way back in the middle ages. What I've found when I tried to compare those things is that items in D&D are usually 2 to 5 times the encumbrance that you would expect from a simple 10 cn = 1 lb conversion. And the 1E PHB tells you exactly why that is. Because Enc is not just weight. It's also factoring bulk, balance, and all those things that makes something hard to carry.

Being that the values come in 2-5 times higher than what you'd expect, it becomes clearer that those other factors are stacked on top of weight. It's not like, "Oh, this box of macaroni weighs 2-pounds, so 20 enc... oh, but it has a convenient little handle making it easier to carry. Let's call this one just 17 enc. But that 2-pound sack of feathers, that's big and bulky and has no handle, so we'll call that one 25 enc." It's not like 2 pound items are going to gravitate around 20 enc like a center. It's that they're going to have a minimum 20 enc, PLUS additional amounts if they're hard to carry for some reason.

So yeah, coins definitely not 1.6 oz

Moreover, the 1E PHB's note on coins assumes the coins are roughly of similar size and weight. But of course gold is about twice as dense as most other metals. So what does roughly similar size and weight mean in that context? The most obvious thing is that gold has slightly more weight but slightly less volume than most other coins. What does slightly mean? By the least amount that is logically consistent. But the point is, the weights of coins necessarily vary if you're going by the book. I only bring this up to emphasize that not only is the 10 cn = 1 lb not the one true BtB interpretation, it's not even in the range of possible BtB interpretations. And I'm not saying this insight necessarily solves all problems. It has for me. I'm just saying I've never seen anyone make the same sort of complaint you're making here without needing to hang their hat on a conversation that is not actually a part of the rules. Just saying. Maybe look more in this directly for ways to make the numbers make sense.

Hum... not sure. A dagger to a pound sounds reasonable, most weapon weights are two/three times what you'd expect at most. But let's say 50 gp to a pound - FIVE times less valuable than I assumed (and I'd say coins are not particularly hard to carry for their weight - on the contrary, carrying 10 pounds of feathers around could be trickier, as you mentioned!). Still, costs more than half a pound of gold to add one pound of silver (still 10 times less valuable per encumbrance) to a dagger.

But you're right that I assumed one gold piece as 1/10 of a pound (I was pretty sure it was spelled out is some TSR book). Thinking of encumbrance as some abstract value solves and explain LOTS of things... why the 2H sword and polearm are so "heavy" for example. The problem with abstraction is that it leaves you with other problems (for example, shouldn't be so hard for your donkey to carry ten swords for your party, and the DM has to come up with the "weight" of various items with no formula or any reference to actual weight). But yeah, it makes more sense than actual pounds.

None of those tables ever include livestock or foodstuffs.

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 01:26:00 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 11:45:36 AM
My question: what are your experiences with treasure in OSR games? How do you deal with it?

Why are they hoarding coin? Are they Dwarves? Gygax explains how to handle it:

QuoteWhat society can exist without revenues? What better means of assuring revenues than taxation, and all of the names used in the title of this section are synonymous with taxes - but if it is called something different perhaps the populace won't take too much umbrage at having to pay and pay and pay . . . It is important in most campaigns to take excess monies away from player characters and taxation is one of the better means of accomplishing this end. The form and frequency of taxation depends upon the locale and the social structure. Duties are typically paid on goods brought into a country or subdivision thereof, so any furs, tapestries, etc. brought into a town for sale will probably be subject to duty. Excises are typically sums paid to belong to a particular profession or practice a certain calling; in addition, on excise can be levied against foreign currency, for example, in order to change it into the less remarkable coin of the realm. Fees can be levied for lust about any reason - entering a city gate is a good one for non-citizens.

Tariffs are much the same as duties, but let us suppose that this is levied against only certain items when purchased - rather o surtax, or it can be used against goods not covered by the duty list. Taxes are typically paid only by residents and citizens of the municipality and include those sums for upkeep of roads and streets, walls gates, and municipal expenses for administration and services. Taxation is not necessarily an annual affair, for special taxes can be levied whenever needful, particularly upon sales, services, and foreigners in general. Tithes are principally religious taxation, although there is no prohibition against the combination of the from all sums brought into the community by any resident, the monies going to the religious organization sponsored by the community or to that of the character's choosing, at your option. (Of course, any religious organizations within a municipality will have to pay heavy taxes unless they are officially recognized by the authorities.) Tolls, finally, are sums paid for the use of a road, bridge, ferry, etc. They are paid according to the numbers of persons, animals, carts wagons, and possibly even materials transported.

As D/GM YOU control how much coin the party gets and how much they keep, not the players. First thing with any published module is to go through it and adjust it to your liking. Change the monsters up, cut the listed coin in half (at least) and remove all magic items.

Magic items should be very rare. Or, you end up with the classic "Monty Haul" campaign where the PCs strut around like Christmas trees due to their arsenal of magic items. And like children, the players won't appreciate it, instead getting spoiled and expecting to find the Magic Dollar Store™ in every dungeon they explore. When you rework the module, have just one magic item for each PC. I ask players what magic item they'd like for their PCs, then if they survive the gauntlet, they find those items ONLY.

Conan and other S&S characters didn't strut around dripping gold and magic items, and neither should the players' PCs if you want to maintain a S&S tone. Your campaign must be entertaining for you, or unless you're being paid as a professional GM, why run it?

Taxation is theft!

But I agree, the DM in my AD&D2e 2year+ ongoing campaign has us paying taxes for everything:

"So you will go to clean the mine from Goblins? Neat we'll pay you 1000 GP per adventurer."

"Welcome back adventurers! Here's your reward, minus the taxes you have to pay on it." (Mind you, if you wish to burden them or yourself with keeping track of the taxes you could make the tax man come only once per in game year).

As for magic items... Even in High Fantasy worlds I keep them rare, the good ones at least, you might get minor magic items easily but those are cheaper/faster/easier to do, the more powerful ones are increasingly rarer. Because they are powerful they are more valuable, and Ye Olde Magic Shoppe carries ingredients, you might find a lesser magic item for sale, but the good stuff never reaches the market, it's inherited, stolen or won as battle loot. Plus the King/Emperor or the Temples might have a claim over the more powerful items, only some times granting them as reward to the PCs.

On the other hand I include/allow some classes to have a profficiency in tending/curing some wounds/diseases, you'll not heal as fast as with a Cleric's Blessing or being tended by someone with better experience/education on those matters but you will not die from a minor wound.

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 23, 2023, 01:26:00 PM
As D/GM YOU control how much coin the party gets and how much they keep, not the players. First thing with any published module is to go through it and adjust it to your liking. Change the monsters up, cut the listed coin in half (at least) and remove all magic items.

Magic items should be very rare. Or, you end up with the classic "Monty Haul" campaign where the PCs strut around like Christmas trees due to their arsenal of magic items. And like children, the players won't appreciate it, instead getting spoiled and expecting to find the Magic Dollar Store™ in every dungeon they explore. When you rework the module, have just one magic item for each PC. I ask players what magic item they'd like for their PCs, then if they survive the gauntlet, they find those items ONLY.

Conan and other S&S characters didn't strut around dripping gold and magic items, and neither should the players' PCs if you want to maintain a S&S tone. Your campaign must be entertaining for you, or unless you're being paid as a professional GM, why run it?

Yes, this is what I'm doing from now on.

It is strange - I have spent maybe a decade making my own adventures, then I got tired and started using published modules for another decade or so... and now I'm not that satisfied with them.

Maybe I'll find  a happy medium by taking existing adventures  and changing them  for my tastes.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 01:15:39 PM
This is pretty neat TBH. If I understand it right, you could reduce rolls, doing:

Sure but the variety of results will go down. Which is why I recommend coding it up in Inspiration Pad Pro and see what it looks like with dozens of rolls.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 23, 2023, 01:44:45 PM
But you're right that I assumed one gold piece as 1/10 of a pound.

Historically  Coins were all about the weight of precious metals in them.

For example in England from 8th century to around the mid 13th century the only minted coins was the silver penny the size of a US Dime. They weighed about 1.7 grams and were .925 fine. I.e. 92.5% pure silver.

In the mid 13th century, Henry III tried to introduce a gold penny (Us nickel size), which is worth 20 silver. But they had trouble getting the amount of gold right for the value. At first, there wasn't enough gold, then there was too much gold which meant folks melted them down. So the coins never circulated.

It wasn't until the reign of Edward III a hundred later, that the English crown made a gold currency that lasted the gold noble. The gold noble was worth 80d (sp), weighed around 8 grams, and was a little larger than a us half dollar.

For the purpose of gaming, I thought doing the 1/10th of a pound for the weight of a coin was stupid.

The system I use is that silver pennies (d) are the standard coins in every day use. They are the size of a dime and there are 240 of them to one pound . The other coin type I use is the gold crown which is worth 320d and there are 16 of them to one pound.

I found that particular combination of high value gold coin to a common silver coin to be popular among my players. Gold felt valuable again after I implemented this in the late 80s.

Other coins I have is the silver mark which is a silver bar with a mint mark and a value of 240d. They are the high value coin in Viking cultures.

Another is the gold penny used by Elves worth 20d and there are 240 of them to 1 pound. Also the size of a dime.

You can play around with weights and the ratio of gold value to silver to come up with your own coinage system.

You can also convert a given RPG/Setting price list by converting the price everything to silver (or copper) and the implement the price list with the new coinage system.

Hope this is helpful.

One idea I nabbed from Earthdawn is leveling items. As the character advances, they can unlock more and better features from their magical items.
This means you can be more stingy with magical items, but the items keep up with the power level of the character.

And I don't use gold for xp even in OSR style games. That just opens up too much of a can of worms with characters carting around buckets full of coins, and playing Medievial Tax Lawyer instead of getting their asses back into the adventure.

I've used master crafted blades for decades. I tired of modules doling out way too much magic in the form of sword+1 and dagger+1 and so on. Better steel and better craftsmanship solves a lot of this problem, that and I limit magic items to a single one per hoard except in very rare cases such as dragon's hoards. D&D modules sure toss out way too much magic.

Lots of treasure is the best part of AD&D. Then you have to spend fucktons of it for training, so you rarely have enough to save up for your fortress when you hit name level.

No idea what these criticisms are except theory-crafting. In play, never had any issues with this stuff.