More interesting are the influences of western fantasy on Japanese fantasy. Even today I spot fantasy anime with the classic O/A/BX style dog-men Kobolds and even the occasional boar headed Orcs and so on. Clerics turning undead. Western style dragons. and so on.

Quote from: Omega on August 12, 2022, 04:54:17 PM
More interesting are the influences of western fantasy on Japanese fantasy. Even today I spot fantasy anime with the classic O/A/BX style dog-men Kobolds and even the occasional boar headed Orcs and so on. Clerics turning undead. Western style dragons. and so on.

Ever since Record of Lodoss War, anime and manga have been influenced by Western fantasy.

Japanese video games and anime have had a strong influence on Western fantasy and pop culture.

For instance, the image of the fighter with a "buster sword" from things like Berserk, Escaflowne, and Final Fantasy 7 has been widely duplicated in Western fantasy, particularly in comics.

Quote from: jeff37923 on August 12, 2022, 06:36:39 PM

Quote from: Omega on August 12, 2022, 04:54:17 PM
More interesting are the influences of western fantasy on Japanese fantasy. Even today I spot fantasy anime with the classic O/A/BX style dog-men Kobolds and even the occasional boar headed Orcs and so on. Clerics turning undead. Western style dragons. and so on.

Ever since Record of Lodoss War, anime and manga have been influenced by Western fantasy.

They were before that too. Or at least european mythologies. Alot of Greek themed stuff pops up in early anime. Japan has always loved adapting western stuff. Ozamu for example did Animal Treasure Island way before. I have a beat up old copy of it still somewhere I hope. Its foreign, which makes it potentially exotic. The flip side of going the traditional monster routes.

Lots of potential fun mixing in stuff from different cultures.

Still funny that the owl-bear in D&D was based off a kappa. 

Quote from: Omega on August 13, 2022, 04:27:21 PM

Still funny that the owl-bear in D&D was based off a kappa. 

Wait, what? I've never heard that before.

Depends on the game I am playing, but I do try to keep my themes separated. And I treat meta-tropes of anime as its own theme, so I don't like it bleeding in unintentionally into my other games. If I want anime tropes, I play one of the various anime rpg games.  Those have been fun campaigns.

But I have tired of "all-anime, all the time!" players leaking such things into where I wanted something to remain different.

I like some aspects of Japanese history and I have thought about doing a semi-historical campaign in the late Heian/Fujiwara period. One thing I like about it is the contrast between the die-hard and fatalistic samurai vs their masters, the over-sensitive and decadent Fujiwara court. BUT Having known two Japan-fetishizers ("everything Japanese is just better") I have sometimes been a bit turned off.

Anyway, maybe I'll go back to that idea later.

Quote from: Trond on August 13, 2022, 10:27:07 PM
I like some aspects of Japanese history and I have thought about doing a semi-historical campaign in the late Heian/Fujiwara period. One thing I like about it is the contrast between the die-hard and fatalistic samurai vs their masters, the over-sensitive and decadent Fujiwara court. BUT Having known two Japan-fetishizers ("everything Japanese is just better") I have sometimes been a bit turned off.

Anyway, maybe I'll go back to that idea later.

Greetings!

Hey Trond!

"Japan-Fetishizers". Yeah, it has been an observation of mine that, at least here in America, America in general has fetishized Japan for a good long while now, say 40 or 50 years, maybe more.

I originally developed my theory partially from a Pop-Cultural standpoint, but also from an educational standpoint. Through much of American schooling, Asia is for the most part ignored entirely. Then, there is Commodore Perry, and opening up Japan to the wider world during the latter half of the 19th Century.

Then, there is World War II, and our war against the Japanese Empire in the pacific. Then, there is the Korean War (Mostly ignored or gone over very briefly); Then, there is the Vietnam War, gone into some political detail, but especially focused on glorifying the Liberals, the Hippies, the Rebels, and American media personalities' fight to embarrass or otherwise shame and resist the American military and the American government.

There is the Pop-Cultural obsession with Ninjas, Katanas, Samurai, and Geishas.

That is pretty much what is typically served up as 'Asia" until college, where, depending on one's major, Asian studies at least improves somewhat. Until that point, or an individual pursues vigorous individual study, it can seem like it is all "Japan!, Japan!, Japan!"; and "Japanese everything is awesome!"

It is a to a huge degree concerning that cultural and educational frustration that when I got into college, I said "Forget Japan!"--and I formally pursued professional studies in Ancient India and Ancient China. One of my Historical specialties for my History degree was Ancient China and Ancient India studies.

There is 5,000 years and more of history going on in Ancient China, as well as Ancient India. Very interesting things, so many, many things going on. Comparatively, Japan was a primitive, barbarian backwater for most of that time.

To this day, not only academically, with my own library of books, but also feeding into my influences in gaming, I have been much re interested in Chinese and Indian sources. As a off-shoot, I have also chewed a bit into Vietnam, Thailand, and the history of the Siam region in general.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on August 13, 2022, 11:16:02 PM

Quote from: Trond on August 13, 2022, 10:27:07 PM
I like some aspects of Japanese history and I have thought about doing a semi-historical campaign in the late Heian/Fujiwara period. One thing I like about it is the contrast between the die-hard and fatalistic samurai vs their masters, the over-sensitive and decadent Fujiwara court. BUT Having known two Japan-fetishizers ("everything Japanese is just better") I have sometimes been a bit turned off.

Anyway, maybe I'll go back to that idea later.

Greetings!

Hey Trond!

"Japan-Fetishizers". Yeah, it has been an observation of mine that, at least here in America, America in general has fetishized Japan for a good long while now, say 40 or 50 years, maybe more.

I originally developed my theory partially from a Pop-Cultural standpoint, but also from an educational standpoint. Through much of American schooling, Asia is for the most part ignored entirely. Then, there is Commodore Perry, and opening up Japan to the wider world during the latter half of the 19th Century.

Then, there is World War II, and our war against the Japanese Empire in the pacific. Then, there is the Korean War (Mostly ignored or gone over very briefly); Then, there is the Vietnam War, gone into some political detail, but especially focused on glorifying the Liberals, the Hippies, the Rebels, and American media personalities' fight to embarrass or otherwise shame and resist the American military and the American government.

There is the Pop-Cultural obsession with Ninjas, Katanas, Samurai, and Geishas.

That is pretty much what is typically served up as 'Asia" until college, where, depending on one's major, Asian studies at least improves somewhat. Until that point, or an individual pursues vigorous individual study, it can seem like it is all "Japan!, Japan!, Japan!"; and "Japanese everything is awesome!"

It is a to a huge degree concerning that cultural and educational frustration that when I got into college, I said "Forget Japan!"--and I formally pursued professional studies in Ancient India and Ancient China. One of my Historical specialties for my History degree was Ancient China and Ancient India studies.

There is 5,000 years and more of history going on in Ancient China, as well as Ancient India. Very interesting things, so many, many things going on. Comparatively, Japan was a primitive, barbarian backwater for most of that time.

To this day, not only academically, with my own library of books, but also feeding into my influences in gaming, I have been much re interested in Chinese and Indian sources. As a off-shoot, I have also chewed a bit into Vietnam, Thailand, and the history of the Siam region in general.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Oh yes, I actually have more books on China and India too. I guess Japan looks more enticing in recent history though, as communism has been rough on China. Japan is nice enough, with some pretty interesting sides to it, but the romanization of ninjas and katanas gets tiresome sometimes. I'm not an expert on sword fighting but I suspect that by 1600 the katana expert would have serious problems against a European sword master with a rapier.

The other big problem with China in pop culture is, of course, the double whammy of the "century of shame" and the Cultural Revolution. China and Chinese people barely acknowledge the 1800's and some of the 1900's since they were basically occupied when the Qing Dynasty became so corrupt they let foreign owners do whatever they liked. Then in the Cultural Revolution, so much the documented history was just burned. So, unlike Japan where there is a lot of historical material to romanticize during the Meiji and Edo periods, You really have to dig if you want anything more than surface level propaganda bullshit from Chinese history. The supremacy of Japanese cultural exports compared to the rest of East Asia is mostly less to do with Japan's stellar practices (though they were damn good at marketing their culture after they rebuilt) and more to do with the rest of the continent being a giant clusterfuck. Korea is of course making a pretty big comeback on the cultural exports,  it I would say that is at least partly because they have adopted more western culture into their pop culture and people seem to like that.

On the subject of swords, the katana mythologizing was a bit egregious during the early 2000's, but I have also seen a lot of European sword circle jerking as of late. If you compare the techniques used by Europeans and Japanese warriors, there really is not all that much different at a fundamental level. Skallagrim, a YouTube sword guy, recently talked about this.

Specifically comparing katana to rapiers it does depend a lot on the context. You have to remember the rapier is mostly a dedicated dueling weapon. I'm sure it was used on the battlefield occasionally, but it certainly wasn't the norm. The katana, and the tachi before it, were developed as battlefield sidearms. They were eventually used in duels, but they weren't particularly designed for the role. So, in a duel, the rapier will very likely compare better thanks to the extra reach, which is huge in single combat. On the battlefield, that reach can actually be a detriment since a lot of combat become extremely close quarters. In that instance, the katana's shorter range and heavier profile make it more suitable to just bash or cut someone who's up in your grill. Long story short rapier in duels, katana in warfare in my estimation.

But it's kinda moot, since there is no reason a European dude couldn't pick up a katana on the battlefield and the Japanese guy could also use a rapier before a duel if both weapons were available.

What's this, a balanced analysis? Hzilong, you're doing it wrong, what you're supposed to do is start a flame war 
Here, let me help:
-Katanas are the best you idiot!
-Rapiers are much better you moron!
-You're both losers! Viking swords rule!

Greetings!

*LAUGHING* Hilarious! I'm relaxing here, with some fresh coffee in the morning, and you guys are the first thing I pop onto here and read.

Hzilong! The continent was a giant clusterfuck! And Shallagrim! I've seen him, too!

Trond! You've got all the arguments down so well!

Fucking awesome guys.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Hzilong on August 13, 2022, 05:44:07 PM

Quote from: Omega on August 13, 2022, 04:27:21 PM

Still funny that the owl-bear in D&D was based off a kappa. 

Wait, what? I've never heard that before.

Some of the monsters were from a pack of 'dinosaurs' that included some japanese monsters in it. I suspect some were inspired by Ultraman monsters as pretty sire seen some in various shows way back. Here is a example of the pieces. Pretty sure I had some of those too and never knew the connection.
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/PrehistoricAnimalsS.jpg

Quote from: Omega on August 14, 2022, 01:17:17 PM
Some of the monsters were from a pack of 'dinosaurs' that included some japanese monsters in it. I suspect some were inspired by Ultraman monsters as pretty sire seen some in various shows way back. Here is a example of the pieces. Pretty sure I had some of those too and never knew the connection.
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/PrehistoricAnimalsS.jpg

That's kind of amazing and you can totally see it. Remove the 'water cup' from that kappa and it does look a lot like an owlbear.