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There's a rumor that WoTC is "canceling the OGL". If true, I explain what that would really mean, and who it would really affect!
#wotc #dnd #dnd5e #OneDnD #ttrpg


https://youtube.com/shorts/bW5okdG8IIE?feature=share (https://youtube.com/shorts/bW5okdG8IIE?feature=share)

So, in other words... WotC can't end the OGL, but is likely planning exactly what made 4E a commercial failure; dropping the OGL for the highly restricted Game System License.

History recap for those who didn't know... this is the "genius" move that literally created Pathfinder. The Pathfinder setting was originally going to be Paizo's 4E OGL setting for use in their Dragon and Dungeon publications until WotC pulled the rug out from under them by dropping OGL support for 4E and ending Paizo's license for Dragon and Dungeon magazine.

It's worth noting that a straight retroclone of 5e would be slightly harder than 3e as they never put more than a single subclass (often the least interesting one) into 5e's SRD. Maybe the bean counters think that will spare them a repeat performance that a failure to adopt 6e (let's call it what it is... WotC always lies about backwards compatibility until it's too late for any grumbling to matter about the outcome) would be.

I like the odds of my modern game design non-retroclone books more and more. Now I just need to finish the art.

Seeing as WOTC is already planning to go to a more digital focus with 1D&D, this could just be an excuse not to put out a creator tools for their VTT.
I was concerned how 1D&D would handle homebrew and 3rd party content, but this is pointing to my most cynical outlook; it won't. It'll be WOTC's way or the highway.

Oh please, oh please let them drive the customers screaming into the small press wilderness.

Good grief. Did idiot pills become standard issue at WotC/Hasbro?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 14, 2022, 01:45:07 PM
Good grief. Did idiot pills become standard issue at WotC/Hasbro?

Actually, it looks to me like a smart move. When the OGL was first created, the thinking was that adventures didn't sell enough volume to warrant the expense of Hasbro producing them and any third party adventures would just drive players into D&D and, thus, sell more core books.

But that paradigm isn't true with 1D&D. Now the product is subscriptions to a VTT app that will handle most of the rules anyway. So the only thing to drive customers to the VTT are well made adventures that fully support all the VTT features, such as interactive maps and pre-built monster tokens, as well as the possibility of new features, such as fully voice acted NPCs. Things that aren't possible for smaller game companies to compete with.

And removing the OGL won't create a new Pathfinder as smaller companies won't have the infrastructure to create a VTT to rival what Hasbro can produce. And if a rival VTT does shows up, Hasbro can just buy it out and import all their customers.

The goal of Hasbro isn't to maximize the number of people playing RPGs, but to maximize the number of people who pay the subscription fee.

Quote from: Tasty_Wind on November 14, 2022, 09:43:11 AMI was concerned how 1D&D would handle homebrew and 3rd party content, but this is pointing to my most cynical outlook; it won't. It'll be WOTC's way or the highway.

Exactly. if a company wants to create an adventure for 1D&D, they will need to sign a contract with Hasbro and do what Hasbro tells them to do, including following all of Hasbro's diversity and inclusion guidelines and get their product approved by multiple Cultural Consultants.

That's going to be an interesting combination - a digital platform that requires a subscription and a team dedicated to the woke mindset with a company that has already cancelled people they don't like and their expensive digital components. The guy from The Quartering lost thousands of dollars worth of digital Magic cards when WotC gave him the axe because they didn't like what he was saying. I see that happening again and again until only the woke remain. It will be TBP OneDnD.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 14, 2022, 02:57:11 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 14, 2022, 01:45:07 PM
Good grief. Did idiot pills become standard issue at WotC/Hasbro?

Actually, it looks to me like a smart move. When the OGL was first created, the thinking was that adventures didn't sell enough volume to warrant the expense of Hasbro producing them and any third party adventures would just drive players into D&D and, thus, sell more core books.

But that paradigm isn't true with 1D&D. Now the product is subscriptions to a VTT app that will handle most of the rules anyway. So the only thing to drive customers to the VTT are well made adventures that fully support all the VTT features, such as interactive maps and pre-built monster tokens, as well as the possibility of new features, such as fully voice acted NPCs. Things that aren't possible for smaller game companies to compete with.

And removing the OGL won't create a new Pathfinder as smaller companies won't have the infrastructure to create a VTT to rival what Hasbro can produce. And if a rival VTT does shows up, Hasbro can just buy it out and import all their customers.

The goal of Hasbro isn't to maximize the number of people playing RPGs, but to maximize the number of people who pay the subscription fee.

Quote from: Tasty_Wind on November 14, 2022, 09:43:11 AMI was concerned how 1D&D would handle homebrew and 3rd party content, but this is pointing to my most cynical outlook; it won't. It'll be WOTC's way or the highway.

Exactly. if a company wants to create an adventure for 1D&D, they will need to sign a contract with Hasbro and do what Hasbro tells them to do, including following all of Hasbro's diversity and inclusion guidelines and get their product approved by multiple Cultural Consultants.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster. They want to be the only RPG available. Fuck them! I don't need them! Another reason to go the independent route.

I would love to go the independent route. Unfortunately ttrpgs just aren't a growth sector. Most people will stick to the first ttrpg they're introduced to for the rest of their lives.

I've decided to go into prose and crpgs. Unlike ttrpgs, after someone finishes a novel or crpgs then they're likely to go read/play a different one. This makes it relatively easy to break in to the market compared to ttrpgs.

Quote from: David Johansen on November 14, 2022, 10:34:49 AM
Oh please, oh please let them drive the customers screaming into the small press wilderness.

Why would players stop playing D&D just because Hasbro tries to shut down the OGL? I doubt that most D&D players even know that the OGL exists.

As long as Hasbro doesn't radically change D&D like they did with 4th edition, i don't see many players not making the transition. As we can see from the money that Wakanda Forever just made, the average person's tolerance for woke BS is extremely high.

I was wondering when they were going to stop giving freebies. For what it's worth, some of these woke companies are at least polite enough to put their money where their mouth is. This would put wizards in the worse than Evil Hat category in my mind. At least Evil Hat gives away free stuff.

So early 5e all over again.

When 5e first came out WOTC denied OGL for I think a year or so before finally releasing their OGL/SRD/whatever.

So ONEe may go that same route.

I see Pundit has embraced The Quartering level of marketing his videos.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 14, 2022, 04:42:19 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on November 14, 2022, 10:34:49 AM
Oh please, oh please let them drive the customers screaming into the small press wilderness.

Why would players stop playing D&D just because Hasbro tries to shut down the OGL? I doubt that most D&D players even know that the OGL exists.

As long as Hasbro doesn't radically change D&D like they did with 4th edition, i don't see many players not making the transition. As we can see from the money that Wakanda Forever just made, the average person's tolerance for woke BS is extremely high.

I disagree with you for several reasons:

1. Anyone who's been playing D&D since 3.0 knows what the OGL is.
2. D&D since 3.0 has been a radical change. Why? Backward compatibility. The conversion book to D&D 3.0 was over TWENTY pages. Let that sink it. Now? Forget about it. There is no conversion, because it can't be done. Rewrite the rules, and you need new rules. Rewrite the supplement material for the news rules, and the next thing you know you have 6 different versions of Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, etc. It's a great scam to get your money. that why is laughable to me to see these rewrites of classic modules for 5e. Anyone who buys them is a sucker.
3. Wakanda Forever is the pinnacle of woke BS. that I agree on. But watch the MASSIVE drop off in a week or two. You'll see.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 14, 2022, 04:42:19 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on November 14, 2022, 10:34:49 AM
Oh please, oh please let them drive the customers screaming into the small press wilderness.

Why would players stop playing D&D just because Hasbro tries to shut down the OGL? I doubt that most D&D players even know that the OGL exists.

As long as Hasbro doesn't radically change D&D like they did with 4th edition, i don't see many players not making the transition. As we can see from the money that Wakanda Forever just made, the average person's tolerance for woke BS is extremely high.

Even what would be a trickle to WotC is like a flood to the rest of the market.

Quote from: David Johansen on November 15, 2022, 01:58:25 PMEven what would be a trickle to WotC is like a flood to the rest of the market.

You would need a significant portion of the D&D 5e player base to jump ship to create a company that could rival 1D&D.

However, I don't think that is really a concern for Hasbro. The current business model for RPGs is that a DM will buy a few books a year to support the campaign while the players might buy one or two player books at the start to join.

The new model would be getting all the players to pay a monthly fee to continue to play. Four players paying $10 a month for 1D&D is much better for Hasbro than one DM buying a couple of books a year.

So even if Hasbro loses a significant number of players they can still come out on top.

Pathfinder was not an alternative 4e but an alternative to continue with 3e. A company will not have to make an alternative to 1DnD but simply offer an alternative way to continue with 5e that everyone already knows.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 15, 2022, 04:58:22 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on November 15, 2022, 01:58:25 PMEven what would be a trickle to WotC is like a flood to the rest of the market.

You would need a significant portion of the D&D 5e player base to jump ship to create a company that could rival 1D&D.

However, I don't think that is really a concern for Hasbro. The current business model for RPGs is that a DM will buy a few books a year to support the campaign while the players might buy one or two player books at the start to join.

The new model would be getting all the players to pay a monthly fee to continue to play. Four players paying $10 a month for 1D&D is much better for Hasbro than one DM buying a couple of books a year.

So even if Hasbro loses a significant number of players they can still come out on top.

Most players don't buy. Are they all really going to start paying when they can just play on roll20 or handle the rules themselves?

Nothing happens all at once. WotC has to build up their VTT first.

The next thing that happens is WotC pulls support for D&D from all the other VTT platforms. Don't want any competition. Depending on how current contracts are written, that may not fuck with any existing 5E content that's already out there. This doesn't happen all at once, it takes place in stages over several years.

Without the D&D audience, the other VTT platforms go tits-up. It isn't likely that they all die, at least one of them probably survives. There isn't enough non-D&D money to sustain all of them, though.

This will end up with the curious situation where people are paying WotC a subscription fee to play Pathfinder, because all of the art assets are compatible.

Boycott WotC products.

Has anyone seen the lates oned&d development?  I have 't seen or heard anything on the digital end.  Just rediculous rule changes. 

I don't think they are going to have their virtual tabletop up an running for some time yet.

It apparently came across that Dragon+ was pulled from app stores, and is no longer available for download. While Dragon was a shadow of its former self, it's probably going to become a product kept behind a subscription model, with D&D Beyond. Seems WOTC doesn't even want a glorified newsletter to be free.

Should be interesting with all the changes. I'll be curious to see if this truly does become 4e/Pathfinder again.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on November 15, 2022, 09:30:10 PM
Has anyone seen the lates oned&d development?  I have 't seen or heard anything on the digital end.  Just rediculous rule changes. 

I don't think they are going to have their virtual tabletop up an running for some time yet.

5e went through quite a few changes during playtest as well.

Quote from: World_Warrior on November 15, 2022, 09:37:19 PM
It apparently came across that Dragon+ was pulled from app stores, and is no longer available for download. While Dragon was a shadow of its former self, it's probably going to become a product kept behind a subscription model, with D&D Beyond. Seems WOTC doesn't even want a glorified newsletter to be free.

Should be interesting with all the changes. I'll be curious to see if this truly does become 4e/Pathfinder again.

According to sources. WOTC discontinued Dragon+ this April. Despite claims. Nothing was actually moved over to D&D Beyond that I can see.

The thing that raised my eyebrows, if it's true, is that the Dungeoncraft video where he claims that Hasbro tried to sell WotC last year to an outside firm but failed because (presumably Woke) board members staved off the buyout.

Clearly this has been on the minds of folks at Hasbro for a while. The fact that WotC was even potentially up for sale, means they knew this was coming. They're suffering not just from WotC but their licenses to Marvel are starting to hurt them as well. Price-gouging on collectibles seems to be across the board on top of Woke-infected products not living up to their brands potential.

Interesting times.

Quote from: tenbones on November 16, 2022, 01:00:37 PM
The thing that raised my eyebrows, if it's true, is that the Dungeoncraft video where he claims that Hasbro tried to sell WotC last year to an outside firm but failed because (presumably Woke) board members staved off the buyout.

Clearly this has been on the minds of folks at Hasbro for a while. The fact that WotC was even potentially up for sale, means they knew this was coming. They're suffering not just from WotC but their licenses to Marvel are starting to hurt them as well. Price-gouging on collectibles seems to be across the board on top of Woke-infected products not living up to their brands potential.

Interesting times.

Except they're both unsubstantiated rumors created by suspect sources?

Quote from: Omega on November 16, 2022, 10:48:10 AM

Quote from: World_Warrior on November 15, 2022, 09:37:19 PM
It apparently came across that Dragon+ was pulled from app stores, and is no longer available for download. While Dragon was a shadow of its former self, it's probably going to become a product kept behind a subscription model, with D&D Beyond. Seems WOTC doesn't even want a glorified newsletter to be free.

Should be interesting with all the changes. I'll be curious to see if this truly does become 4e/Pathfinder again.

According to sources. WOTC discontinued Dragon+ this April. Despite claims. Nothing was actually moved over to D&D Beyond that I can see.

They just pulled everything yesterday. I'm assuming in the coming months they will roll out its replacement.

Quote from: World_Warrior on November 16, 2022, 02:22:24 PM

Quote from: Omega on November 16, 2022, 10:48:10 AM

Quote from: World_Warrior on November 15, 2022, 09:37:19 PM
It apparently came across that Dragon+ was pulled from app stores, and is no longer available for download. While Dragon was a shadow of its former self, it's probably going to become a product kept behind a subscription model, with D&D Beyond. Seems WOTC doesn't even want a glorified newsletter to be free.

Should be interesting with all the changes. I'll be curious to see if this truly does become 4e/Pathfinder again.

According to sources. WOTC discontinued Dragon+ this April. Despite claims. Nothing was actually moved over to D&D Beyond that I can see.

They just pulled everything yesterday. I'm assuming in the coming months they will roll out its replacement.

The old Dragon+ link now redirects you to the Beyond page. wow.

Quote from: Omega on November 17, 2022, 05:08:37 AM

Quote from: World_Warrior on November 16, 2022, 02:22:24 PM

Quote from: Omega on November 16, 2022, 10:48:10 AM

Quote from: World_Warrior on November 15, 2022, 09:37:19 PM
It apparently came across that Dragon+ was pulled from app stores, and is no longer available for download. While Dragon was a shadow of its former self, it's probably going to become a product kept behind a subscription model, with D&D Beyond. Seems WOTC doesn't even want a glorified newsletter to be free.

Should be interesting with all the changes. I'll be curious to see if this truly does become 4e/Pathfinder again.

According to sources. WOTC discontinued Dragon+ this April. Despite claims. Nothing was actually moved over to D&D Beyond that I can see.

They just pulled everything yesterday. I'm assuming in the coming months they will roll out its replacement.

The old Dragon+ link now redirects you to the Beyond page. wow.

It had just happened not long before I made my first post on this thread.

Makes me wonder if WOTC will continue to use the DMsGuild, or whether they might be making a move to transition everything D&D under one roof, cutting out every middle man they've had to deal with. This reeks of much of the choices WOTC were attempting to make back in 2007/2008.

I'm also wondering if this will kill any third party interest in the same way the purge in 2008 destroyed the entire 3.5/d20 Modern industry that had sprung up over eight years. I'm already thinking of the various Kickstarters, etc that have products finishing up, being sent out for an edition that won't be supported soon.

Tim will tell.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 15, 2022, 04:58:22 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on November 15, 2022, 01:58:25 PMEven what would be a trickle to WotC is like a flood to the rest of the market.

You would need a significant portion of the D&D 5e player base to jump ship to create a company that could rival 1D&D.

It seems you're falling into the fallacy of thinking that once we overthrow the dark lord we're going to want another one.

I think ttrpgs in general are too centralized around a few big companies and associated games and this strangles the potential of the games themselves. Unfortunately, a key part of this is that ttrpgs require a lot more investment than other kinds of games like board games and even most kinds of video games. The only video game genre I can think of that requires a similar level of investment are mmorpgs. In general, gamers are just unwilling to try new games because of prior investment in whatever is their current favorite and intimidation by the perceived amount of investment required for a new game.

Subscription service to play VTT D&D as a global recession goes into overdrive? Sounds brilliant!!

The freemium model might work though.

Quote from: World_Warrior on November 17, 2022, 09:57:35 AM
Tim will tell.

He shall! For Tim is an enchanter!

Quote from: Spinachcat on November 19, 2022, 02:54:28 AM
Subscription service to play VTT D&D as a global recession goes into overdrive? Sounds brilliant!!

It feels like a literal rince and repeat of 4E which got launched just as the crash of 2008 was getting underway. I've gotta get my interior art done and figure out how to code the system into Foundry (way better than Roll20) ASAP. This is just begging for an non-woke low-cost of entry modern mechanics alternative (because the OSR is not the solution to everything for everyone).

This also presumes WotC has hired programmers worth a damn.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 19, 2022, 11:56:40 AM
This also presumes WotC has hired programmers worth a damn.

Well, if it's anything like the quality for 4E, they're hosed.

Someone or someones can have a comfortable niche in the "not-a-trainwreck" modern mechanics fantasy rpg area if they're willing to have offbrand Tieflings, Dragonborn, Warlocks, etc. in their material instead of just the Tolkein expies and core four classes.

Seems that the actual rumor was about the SRD:

https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-open-game-license-srd-one-dnd/

Quote"The YouTuber Indestructoboy claimed that Wizards of the Coast would not create a new System Reference Document for One D&D, the codename for the upcoming new edition of Dungeons & Dragons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdKBD8hhNYg

This would prevent publishers from making material specifically for One D&D, although they could still use the existing 5th Edition System Reference Document to publish material 5E material that could be "backwards compatible" with One D&D. While not creating a new System Reference Document for One D&D wouldn't snuff out third-party material, it would certainly discourage publishing or force publishers to turn to the DMs Guild, a digital marketplace that uses a separate license in exchange for Wizards of the Coast and DriveThruRPG (the manager of the DMs Guild) taking a 50% cut. We'll note that Wizards of the Coast previously turned away from the Open Game License for the release of 4th Edition D&D, with a more restrictive Game System License used instead.

ComicBook.com reached out to Wizards of the Coast about whether they planned to update the Open Game License and System Reference Document. Wizards of the Coast responded with the following statement: "We will continue to support the thousands of creators making third-party D&D content with the release of One D&D in 2024. While it is certain our Open Game License (OGL) will continue to evolve, just as it has  since its inception, we're too early in the development of One D&D to give more specifics on the OGL or System Reference Document (SRD) at this time."

WotC cannot undo the existing 5.1 5e OGL. All they can really do is not update it, which will make it harder for people to make D&Done compatible content independent of the new OneSRD.

Depending on how tight WotC is with their SRD for D&Done will be the kicker...

Will they only allow 3pp to use the SRD if they can make content for the one VTT?

That is the big question.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 19, 2022, 02:59:16 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 19, 2022, 11:56:40 AM
This also presumes WotC has hired programmers worth a damn.

Well, if it's anything like the quality for 4E, they're hosed.
...

Wotc/Hasbro has hired people with a solid track record of success in digital gaming.

I think many are underestimating how serious WotC is about making the one VTT successful for them.

.

.

Quote from: Jaeger on November 22, 2022, 06:29:51 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 19, 2022, 02:59:16 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 19, 2022, 11:56:40 AM
This also presumes WotC has hired programmers worth a damn.

Well, if it's anything like the quality for 4E, they're hosed.
...

Wotc/Hasbro has hired people with a solid track record of success in digital gaming.

I think many are underestimating how serious WotC is about making the one VTT successful for them.

I'm sure they're all very diverse and inclusive. But who specifically did they grab?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 24, 2022, 03:06:04 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on November 22, 2022, 06:29:51 PM
...

Wotc/Hasbro has hired people with a solid track record of success in digital gaming.

I think many are underestimating how serious WotC is about making the one VTT successful for them.

I'm sure they're all very diverse and inclusive. But who specifically did they grab?

This is how serious WotC is about this: Rays replacement pick wasn't very diverse or inclusive at all.

Covered a bit in an earlier thread here:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/ray-winninger-done-at-wotc-more-digital-dudes-coming-in/msg1233263/#msg1233263

This is the guy: Kyle Brink  Executive Producer, Dungeons & Dragons
Click the first link  - for whatever reason I cannot directly link to his linkedin CV:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Kyle+Brink+new+head+of+D%26D&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS753US753&oq=Kyle+Brink+new+head+of+D%26D&aqs=chrome..69i57.4896j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Want a tell that this guy is serious about delivering results?
His hasn't posted on twitter since he got the job, and you have to go back to posts from 2017 to figure out that he is a democrat.
https://twitter.com/KyleBrink

His whole life is essentially digital gaming. Tim Fields, WotC's Senior Vice President and General Manager of Digital Gaming. Is of a similar background. With an emphasis on the monetization of mobile games.

Now of course the proof will be in the pudding. But WotC's plans for D&Done and their VTT should not be lightly dismissed either...

Quote from: Jaeger on November 25, 2022, 05:07:12 PM
His hasn't posted on twitter since he got the job, and you have to go back to posts from 2017 to figure out that he is a democrat.
https://twitter.com/KyleBrink

29 Jan 2017 he retweeted agreeing with Paul Joseph Watson. Based!  ;D

Quote from: Jaeger on November 25, 2022, 05:07:12 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 24, 2022, 03:06:04 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on November 22, 2022, 06:29:51 PM
...

Wotc/Hasbro has hired people with a solid track record of success in digital gaming.

I think many are underestimating how serious WotC is about making the one VTT successful for them.

I'm sure they're all very diverse and inclusive. But who specifically did they grab?

This is how serious WotC is about this: Rays replacement pick wasn't very diverse or inclusive at all.

Covered a bit in an earlier thread here:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/ray-winninger-done-at-wotc-more-digital-dudes-coming-in/msg1233263/#msg1233263

This is the guy: Kyle Brink  Executive Producer, Dungeons & Dragons
Click the first link  - for whatever reason I cannot directly link to his linkedin CV:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Kyle+Brink+new+head+of+D%26D&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS753US753&oq=Kyle+Brink+new+head+of+D%26D&aqs=chrome..69i57.4896j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Want a tell that this guy is serious about delivering results?
His hasn't posted on twitter since he got the job, and you have to go back to posts from 2017 to figure out that he is a democrat.
https://twitter.com/KyleBrink

His whole life is essentially digital gaming. Tim Fields, WotC's Senior Vice President and General Manager of Digital Gaming. Is of a similar background. With an emphasis on the monetization of mobile games.

Now of course the proof will be in the pudding. But WotC's plans for D&Done and their VTT should not be lightly dismissed either...

Well, I did ask and you delivered. Let's go down his gaming CV, earliest to latest:

Spectrum Holobyte (1991-1994)
Microprose (1994-2000)
EA (2000-2005)
Cryptic Studios (2006-2007)
Activision (2007-2008)
Sega Studios (2008-2010)
OnLive (2010, six months)
iWin (2011, eight months)
Viggle Rewards (2011-2016)
ArenaNet and NCSoft (2018-2021)

Some of this looks good, and some of it makes my eyebrows rise. If all they're looking for is monetization, I'd say they have their guy. I'm just not sold it'll be worth a damn.

Quote from: S'mon on November 25, 2022, 06:53:33 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on November 25, 2022, 05:07:12 PM
His hasn't posted on twitter since he got the job, and you have to go back to posts from 2017 to figure out that he is a democrat.
https://twitter.com/KyleBrink

29 Jan 2017 he retweeted agreeing with Paul Joseph Watson. Based!  ;D

LOL... For sure! ;)

I'm saving his Paul Joseph Watson retweet for posterity... Having proof that the current head of D&D agreed with a "racist right-wing conspiracy theorist" should be entertaining to show the WotC twitterati next time they throw a hissy fit about something!

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 25, 2022, 07:05:51 PM
...
Some of this looks good, and some of it makes my eyebrows rise. If all they're looking for is monetization, I'd say they have their guy. I'm just not sold it'll be worth a damn.

And we have a winner!

All WotC cares about is making One D&D so that it feeds into the OneVTT ecosystem, so that they can monetize the player base with microtransactions, and cash fat checks.

WotC has not cared about D&D as part of the wider RPG hobby for some time now. D&D and MtG are cash cow IP's that will be exploited and leveraged to the hilt for maximum profit quarter to quarter.

It is going to be wonderful...

Quote from: Jaeger on November 25, 2022, 09:26:48 PM
All WotC cares about is making One D&D so that it feeds into the OneVTT ecosystem, so that they can monetize the player base with microtransactions, and cash fat checks.

WotC has not cared about D&D as part of the wider RPG hobby for some time now. D&D and MtG are cash cow IP's that will be exploited and leveraged to the hilt for maximum profit quarter to quarter.

I don't disagree - but what is the expectation here? That they should be making games out of the goodness of their hearts for the good of the wider RPG hobby?

A company of any size bigger than a handful of people isn't making RPGs out of the goodness of their hearts. They're doing it to make money.

What I would hope is they put out a product good enough that consumers are willing to pay good money for it. Usually though not always, better products make more money.

Quote from: Jaeger on November 22, 2022, 06:29:51 PM
WotC cannot undo the existing 5.1 5e OGL. All they can really do is not update it, which will make it harder for people to make D&Done compatible content independent of the new OneSRD.

Actually the OGL states that they can revoke your use of the OGL.
I think they would have a hard time pulling it off. But the clause exists to allow them to pull some stunt.

Quote from: Omega on November 27, 2022, 03:55:19 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on November 22, 2022, 06:29:51 PM
WotC cannot undo the existing 5.1 5e OGL. All they can really do is not update it, which will make it harder for people to make D&Done compatible content independent of the new OneSRD.

Actually the OGL states that they can revoke your use of the OGL.
I think they would have a hard time pulling it off. But the clause exists to allow them to pull some stunt.

Where did you get that idea? Please point to the clause(s) in the OGL that allows it to be revoked.

Quote from: Jaeger on November 25, 2022, 09:26:48 PM

Quote from: S'mon on November 25, 2022, 06:53:33 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on November 25, 2022, 05:07:12 PM
His hasn't posted on twitter since he got the job, and you have to go back to posts from 2017 to figure out that he is a democrat.
https://twitter.com/KyleBrink

29 Jan 2017 he retweeted agreeing with Paul Joseph Watson. Based!  ;D

Share the screenshot here!

Quote from: jhkim on November 27, 2022, 12:15:46 PM
...
I don't disagree - but what is the expectation here? That they should be making games out of the goodness of their hearts for the good of the wider RPG hobby?

A company of any size bigger than a handful of people isn't making RPGs out of the goodness of their hearts. They're doing it to make money.

What I would hope is they put out a product good enough that consumers are willing to pay good money for it. Usually though not always, better products make more money.

The expectation is that they go full-steam ahead with their current plans.

I'm all for it.

Quote from: Omega on November 27, 2022, 03:55:19 PM
...
Actually the OGL states that they can revoke your use of the OGL.
I think they would have a hard time pulling it off. But the clause exists to allow them to pull some stunt.

Quote from: Zelen on November 27, 2022, 07:55:13 PM
...
Where did you get that idea? Please point to the clause(s) in the OGL that allows it to be revoked.

I don't know either - I just looked at it, and all I could see was that they could wage lawfare on you only if you don't comply with the terms of the OGL - which you'd have to go out of your way stupid to screw up.

But I'm more than willing to be corrected by my betters on this.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 27, 2022, 09:17:25 PM
...
Share the screenshot here!

For future entertainment purposes...

(https://scontent.fden3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/317397726_1326121654823827_1951776027451565462_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s1080x2048&_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=twziR3ne3wgAX8KXOML&_nc_ht=scontent.fden3-1.fna&oh=00_AfASjX_H9i8PBMhPMQ7ldT4C15rR83Grw35actxG2Zz82w&oe=6389C1F5)

Highlighted:
(https://scontent.fden3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/317576186_1326121934823799_2160090465907366733_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s1080x2048&_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=ijl7UgF8KjEAX8zBrYQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fden3-1.fna&oh=00_AfD5h-awZBaupij-NsfW7z0fiZlwuHd_wUK-BM08m-YcNQ&oe=6389D9CF)

No, I am not scrolling through 6,777 likes to see if I can find Kyle Brink in there.

Here it is in context https://drive.google.com/file/d/1I4l03qY5jHFc_ZfiVPyepZadAncQZtkO/view

Quote from: Omega on November 27, 2022, 03:55:19 PM
Actually the OGL states that they can revoke your use of the OGL.
I think they would have a hard time pulling it off. But the clause exists to allow them to pull some stunt.

Is it really so hard to quote from the actual license to make your point? Granted it is what the Pundit does but you don't have to follow his example.

If you had you would have realized that the license doesn't say what you just claimed.

Quote12. Inability to Comply: If it is impossible for You to comply with any of the terms of this License with respect to some or all of the Open Game Content due to statute, judicial order, or governmental regulation then You may not Use any Open Game Material so affected.

13. Termination: This License will terminate automatically if You fail to comply with all terms herein and fail to cure such breach within 30 days of becoming aware of the breach. All sublicenses shall survive the termination of this License.

The terms you have to comply with are

#5, that what you are contributing as open content is your original content that you have full rights too.
#6, that you update the copyright notice correctly.
#7, that you don't use any content declared as product identity unless it is licensed separately. And you don't cite compatibility with any trademark without a license.
#8, that you clearly identify what is open content in your work.

This means that Wizards does not have any authority to revoke your use of anything they contribute as open content. The only discretion they have is to ignore a licensee failing to do #5, #6, #7, or #8. For example the hundreds of publishers that use a variant of

QuoteAny content derived from the SRD is open content the rest is declared as product identity.

Which in my view violates the letter and spirit of Section #8. But Wizards has ignored this for decades including publishers that just include the OGL but fail to include any declaration of any open content or product identity.

And finally to make this crystal fucking clear they explicitly say that is a perpetual license.

Quote4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.

All of this taken from the latest D&D 5e SRD
https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/SRD-OGL_V1.1.pdf

i wish they fucking did

Quote from: Zelen on November 27, 2022, 07:55:13 PM

Quote from: Omega on November 27, 2022, 03:55:19 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on November 22, 2022, 06:29:51 PM
WotC cannot undo the existing 5.1 5e OGL. All they can really do is not update it, which will make it harder for people to make D&Done compatible content independent of the new OneSRD.

Actually the OGL states that they can revoke your use of the OGL.
I think they would have a hard time pulling it off. But the clause exists to allow them to pull some stunt.

Where did you get that idea? Please point to the clause(s) in the OGL that allows it to be revoked.

think it is part 14. Stats that your use of the OGL may be terminated if WOTC deems it in violation. You have 30 days to 'cure' it or you lose the license agreement.

One of their other TOUs has a little clause about irrevocably giving up all rights to your creations in perpetuity. Think that was only for the forum though. Cant seen to find it now.

Quote from: Omega on November 29, 2022, 03:46:13 PM
think it is part 14. Stats that your use of the OGL may be terminated if WOTC deems it in violation. You have 30 days to 'cure' it or you lose the license agreement.

I think that term is pretty generous compared to what you typically see on standard form contracts. AFAICT it means they cannot sue you for breach without giving you a chance to rectify.

Quote from: Omega on November 29, 2022, 03:46:13 PM
think it is part 14.

Really, I link to the actual license and you can't be bothered to look it up and quote it.

This is the actual section 14. I already cited the termination clauses.

Quote
14.Reformation: If any provision of this License is held to be unenforceable, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable.

Quote from: Omega on November 29, 2022, 03:46:13 PM
Stats that your use of the OGL may be terminated if WOTC deems it in violation. You have 30 days to 'cure' it or you lose the license agreement.

Section 12 & 13 don't give Wizards any discretion. Either you meet the four clauses that spells out what you do or you don't. And if you don't you have 30 days to correct and if you do so you can resume use of the open content.

Quote from: S'mon on November 29, 2022, 05:43:28 PM
I think that term is pretty generous compared to what you typically see on standard form contracts. AFAICT it means they cannot sue you for breach without giving you a chance to rectify.

What happens if you fail to comply, you lose the right to the open content and the Wizards (or another publisher who open content you use) can sue you for using material you don't have a right to use. Just as if you started distributing PDFs of the PHB.

Quote from: estar on November 29, 2022, 07:29:12 PMWhat happens if you fail to comply, you lose the right to the open content and the Wizards (or another publisher who open content you use) can sue you for using material you don't have a right to use. Just as if you started distributing PDFs of the PHB.

I'm not a lawyer, but I deal with contracts at work.  My opinions are worth exactly what you'd pay a rando on the internet.

First, you probably get a Cease and Desist from WotC.

Assuming you neither Cease or Desist, you probably get sued in Washington state court.  I'm a little surprised I didn't see a choice of venue clause in the OGL, but Washington state probably makes the most sense.  There are still problems with that.

If you don't live or incorporate in WA, you can probably make a good argument for lack of jurisdiction in that court.  But, that's probably gonna cost you $10k, just to make that argument.  Most small press publishers can't make enough return on a book to justify that kind of cost and you could still lose and end up having to fight the case.

Let's assume you end up winning.  The next step is WotC leans on Onebookshelf to black-ball you.  It probably violates various anti-competitive business practices laws, but they would do it.  It's a much bigger deal for OBS to keep WotC happy.  You could try to countersue for that action, but that's not free either and a very tough case to win.

Quote from: Almost_Useless on November 29, 2022, 10:18:19 PM
I'm not a lawyer, but I deal with contracts at work.  My opinions are worth exactly what you'd pay a rando on the internet.

The point of the OGL is that an informed author can make use of some content without having to involve an IP attorney. The OGL and Creative Common that I affixed to Blackmarsh are a very specific detailed way of me saying, that you can freely make use of the content in any manner you see fit as long (The creative commons license). Or any manner you see fit if you need to use the OGL license as long as you meet the four conditions that are laid out.

Quote from: Almost_Useless on November 29, 2022, 10:18:19 PM
Most small press publishers can't make enough return on a book to justify that kind of cost and you could still lose and end up having to fight the case.

Let's assume you end up winning.  The next step is WotC leans on Onebookshelf to black-ball you.  It probably violates various anti-competitive business practices laws, but they would do it.  It's a much bigger deal for OBS to keep WotC happy.  You could try to countersue for that action, but that's not free either and a very tough case to win.

From seeing what happened in the past, the worst a small publisher would have to really go out of their way in violating the terms before a lawsuit is part of the equation. Wizards has been pretty consistent over twenty years at leaving anybody alone who sticks with the SRD plus original work.

But far as blackballing by DriveThruRPG, if you won a court case that demonstrated that you had to right to the IP in your work I would be very surprised if Onebookshelf would still remove the work. The backlash against OBS would be immediate and everybody would know as a result of the publicity that would surround such a win.

We are over 20 years into using OGL and open content, there is a track record, people don't need to speculate just look it up at actually what happened.

For example
Fast Forward Entertainment used content they shouldn't have been using as a result they had to pulp four books.
https://web.archive.org/web/20030420202359/http://fastforwardgames.com/#

QuoteThis contains official notification of conformation to the terms of the Open Gaming License version 1.0a (the OGL) and the d20 System® License version 4.0 (the d20 License) pursuant to Section 13 of the OGL and Sections 4 and 5 of the d20 License.

Fast Forward Entertainment, Inc. product number FAF2018 Enchanted Locations: Crypts & Tombs contains material from Wizards of the Coast product Monster Manual II without an independent license from Wizards of the Coast. The material used in this manner is protected under Product Identity in name and content. Fast Forward states publicly that this material is not Open Content and was used in error. No use of this material in Enchanted Locations: Crypts & Tombs is a challenge to copyright or trademark status. Furthermore, let it be known that any copies of Enchanted Locations: Crypts & Tombs in Fast Forward's possession have been destroyed.

Fast Forward Entertainment, Inc. product number FAF2010 Dungeon World contains references to the gods Gruumsh, Pelor, Merrshaulk and Hieroneous. These gods and characters are Product Identity and were used without permission or an independent license from Wizards of the Coast. Fast Forward states publicly that this material is not Open Content and was used in error. No use of this material in Dungeon World is a challenge to copyright or trademark status. Furthermore, let it be known that any copies of Dungeon World in Fast Forward's possession have been destroyed.

Fast Forward Entertainment, Inc. product number FAF2014 Dungeon World: Secrets of the Enemy Capital contains references to the gods Lolth and Gruumsh. These gods and characters are Product Identity and were used without permission or an independent license from Wizards of the Coast. Fast Forward states publicly that this material is not Open Content and was used in error. No use of this material in Dungeon World: Secrets of the Enemy Capital is a challenge to copyright or trademark status. Furthermore, let it be known that any copies of Dungeon World: Secrets of the Enemy Capital in Fast Forward's possession have been destroyed.

Fast Forward Entertainment, Inc. product number FAF2005 Rings of Power contains references to Drawmij and Gruumsh. These gods and characters are Product Identity and were used without permission or an independent license from Wizards of the Coast. Fast Forward states publicly that this material is not Open Content and was used in error. No use of this material in Rings of Power is a challenge to copyright or trademark status. Furthermore, let it be known that any copies of Rings of Power in Fast Forward's possession have been destroyed.

You're right, but that doesn't address the question you asked.  You asked "What happens if you fail to comply...?"  In your example, FFE complied.  They were notified of a breach and cured it (see 13 Termination) by destroying the offending material.  Flipping off WotC and continuing to sell the books would have been failure to comply.

As for OBS standing with small publishers, I would never bet on that.  We've already seen them take action against people just for wrong-think.  I have a really hard time believing they wouldn't choose to keep their (probably) biggest business partner happy.

And again, being right in court can be very expensive.  Let's say you break all the rules and still manage a win.  AND you get off cheap -- maybe $30k in lawyer bills.  What rpg publisher can absorb that?

Complying with the OGL is easy, don't use some else's content that's not itself under OGL.

Obviously if you violate that rule, then there might be legal consequences depending on the aggrieved party and the perceived harm. But none of that prevents you from continuing to use the OGL license or content in valid ways.

Quote from: Zelen on November 30, 2022, 01:21:19 AM
Complying with the OGL is easy, don't use some else's content that's not itself under OGL.

Or you make a system distinct enough from D&D to not need the OGL at all (ex. Palladium still uses d20's for combat, has attributes, hit points and levels, etc. but is far enough from D&D to have never needed any sort of license from TSR or WotC).

Frankly, I found that being restricted from using D&D content by not using the OGL was immensely helpful in freshening up my monster section as I had to go back to the actual myths and legends for inspiration instead of copy/pasting the same boring versions of monsters everyone else uses.

Unless that's actually what you want (ex. you're only interested in making and selling adventure modules for a system) then I would contend that if you're looking to make your own system you're better off taking the time to make the system different enough that it can pass what I informally call the "Palladium Test" and forego the OGL entirely.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 30, 2022, 08:00:46 AM

Quote from: Zelen on November 30, 2022, 01:21:19 AM
Complying with the OGL is easy, don't use some else's content that's not itself under OGL.

Or you make a system distinct enough from D&D to not need the OGL at all (ex. Palladium still uses d20's for combat, has attributes, hit points and levels, etc. but is far enough from D&D to have never needed any sort of license from TSR or WotC).

Frankly, I found that being restricted from using D&D content by not using the OGL was immensely helpful in freshening up my monster section as I had to go back to the actual myths and legends for inspiration instead of copy/pasting the same boring versions of monsters everyone else uses.

Unless that's actually what you want (ex. you're only interested in making and selling adventure modules for a system) then I would contend that if you're looking to make your own system you're better off taking the time to make the system different enough that it can pass what I informally call the "Palladium Test" and forego the OGL entirely.

The thing is, OGL has nothing directly to do with D&D. You don't need to forego OGL if you're making a different system, in fact that's even better. The OGL is simply a legal framework that ensures that someone using the content can engage with your (TTRPG) content in the collaborative, creative spirit that spawned the hobby.

Quote from: Zelen on November 30, 2022, 11:17:28 AM
The thing is, OGL has nothing directly to do with D&D. You don't need to forego OGL if you're making a different system, in fact that's even better. The OGL is simply a legal framework that ensures that someone using the content can engage with your (TTRPG) content in the collaborative, creative spirit that spawned the hobby.

Exactly there is a bunch of open content out there under the OGL that has nothing to do with D&D. The Legends RPG, Cepheus, Year Zero, etc.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 30, 2022, 08:00:46 AM
Or you make a system distinct enough from D&D to not need the OGL at all (ex. Palladium still uses d20's for combat, has attributes, hit points and levels, etc. but is far enough from D&D to have never needed any sort of license from TSR or WotC).

What you mean is not using the D20 System Reference Document or the 5e System Reference Document in favor of your own original system.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 30, 2022, 08:00:46 AM
Frankly, I found that being restricted from using D&D content by not using the OGL was immensely helpful in freshening up my monster section as I had to go back to the actual myths and legends for inspiration instead of copy/pasting the same boring versions of monsters everyone else uses.[/quote Well human beings are one of the things everyone else uses and somehow they managed not be same old boring version.

My creative choice is rather than lean into a stereotype I approach it that everything has a life as rich and diverse as people and creatures have on our planet. There are some things that all bears, orcs, and dragons share but there are plenty of things that make a specific bear, orc, or dragon different than all the others.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 30, 2022, 08:00:46 AM
Unless that's actually what you want (ex. you're only interested in making and selling adventure modules for a system) then I would contend that if you're looking to make your own system you're better off taking the time to make the system different enough that it can pass what I informally call the "Palladium Test" and forego the OGL entirely.

I have a bit of experience with that issue with the publication of my Basic Rules for the Majestic Fantasy RPG which is 100% compatible with Swords & Wizardry.  The advantage of sticking with compatibility with Swords & Wizardry is that the material made for that popular retro-clone is compatible with stuff I make for the Majestic Fantasy RPG, and not I am not re-inventing the wheel for dozens of elements that are meant to be something distinct within the fantasy genre.

Instead I focus on the thing that I creatively care about and flesh those out. Save a lot of time and work for me along with the marketing advantages.

Looks like Pundit was both right and wrong. Wizards is cancelling the OGL, and OSR will be affected. No unauthorized new OSR projects, or any D&D compatible products, permitted after the new license comes into effect.

The web is buzzing with this news. There was the Gizmodo leak, and also a lawyer breaks it down here on ENWorld.
https://www.enworld.org/threads/hello-i-am-lawyer-with-a-psa-almost-everyone-is-wrong-about-the-ogl-and-srd-clearing-up-confusion.694192/

QuoteThere is nothing about the OGL that makes it so Wizards can never revoke it. Some language, at first glance, may appear to contradict this claim. But it doesn't. For instance, the license states that WotC grants the licensee "a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, nonexclusive license" to use the SRD. But "perpetual," in licensing law, does not mean "irrevocable." In fact, unless the word "irrevocable" appears in the license, the license can be revoked at any time, for any reason or for no reason.

Quote from: thornad on January 06, 2023, 02:56:15 AM
and also a lawyer breaks it down here on ENWorld.
https://www.enworld.org/threads/hello-i-am-lawyer-with-a-psa-almost-everyone-is-wrong-about-the-ogl-and-srd-clearing-up-confusion.694192/

QuoteThere is nothing about the OGL that makes it so Wizards can never revoke it. Some language, at first glance, may appear to contradict this claim. But it doesn't. For instance, the license states that WotC grants the licensee "a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, nonexclusive license" to use the SRD. But "perpetual," in licensing law, does not mean "irrevocable." In fact, unless the word "irrevocable" appears in the license, the license can be revoked at any time, for any reason or for no reason.

Although you'll see in the comments there that me and a bunch of other law guys don't agree with his analysis. Although it's impossible to know for sure.

Quote from: S'mon on January 06, 2023, 04:51:44 AM
Although you'll see in the comments there that me and a bunch of other law guys don't agree with his analysis. Although it's impossible to know for sure.

I hope you are right, but a consensus is forming among knowledgable lawyers that 1.0 can be revoked, and will be.

Recent rumors are that the universal revocation was in an earlier draft, and WotC may have settled on just writing a 'we renounce the OGL 1.0a, and all its works, and all its pomps' :) into the OGL 1.1 and tying that to the D&DOne SRD.

That may give folks using the OGL 1.0a a bit of breathing room, but after this leak, I don't think anyone's going to have long-term confidence in it. I expect to see a lot of reworking and migration from many companies to get away from the OGL and original SRD and replace them with more secure alternatives.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 06, 2023, 08:20:29 AM
Recent rumors are that the universal revocation was in an earlier draft, and WotC may have settled on just writing a 'we renounce the OGL 1.0a, and all its works, and all its pomps' :) into the OGL 1.1 and tying that to the D&DOne SRD.

That may give folks using the OGL 1.0a a bit of breathing room, but after this leak, I don't think anyone's going to have long-term confidence in it. I expect to see a lot of reworking and migration from many companies to get away from the OGL and original SRD and replace them with more secure alternatives.

Hopefully for the OSR's sake you're correct.

On the other hand, here's an actual IP lawyer's take; https://medium.com/@MyLawyerFriend/lets-take-a-minute-to-talk-about-d-d-s-open-gaming-license-ogl-581312d48e2f
; which says, yeah, 1.0 is probably revocable (though this might be challengable, it would have to court and would mostly hinge on the duration 1.0a has been in effect and the suddenness of its revocation).

Legally, WotC absolutely could try to cut the OGL portion of the RPG industry off at the knees. The only real question is whether someone convinced them of the disastrous PR hit this would cause to the launch of OneD&D if they tried to nuke the OGL1.0a from orbit.

But they were, all of them, deceived, for another D&D was made. In the land of Washington State in the fires of Seattle, Hasbro forged in secret a master Role-Playing Game, to control all others. And into this game they poured their cruelty, their malice and their will to dominate all life...

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 06, 2023, 09:34:11 AM
But they were, all of them, deceived, for another D&D was made. In the land of Washington State in the fires of Seattle, Hasbro forged in secret a master Role-Playing Game, to control all others. And into this game they poured their cruelty, their malice and their will to dominate all life...

Did that joke already...

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 19, 2022, 08:09:52 AM

"One D&D to rule them all.
One D&D to find them.
One D&D to bring them all,
and in the Wokeness bind them."

Quote from: Ghostmaker on November 14, 2022, 01:45:07 PM
Good grief. Did idiot pills become standard issue at WotC/Hasbro?

They hired tech executives in gaming to run D&D, what did you think would happen?  I worked corporate for a large games publisher, I'm familiar with the execs mentality when it comes to generating money.  They have a short term, how to figure out who are the whales, dolphins and minnows and extract the most wealth from them.  They do not think about the game itself, they just want the quants to come up with algos to wring out short term gains.  We have that mentality at D&D now, they are not looking at history or what will be mid to long term gains.

IF, and this is a big IF, they don't sign deals with Critical Roll and Acquisition Incorporated and they go to other systems and rebel, then D&D will have problems.  I doubt there is more than 10% of their audience who become long term players of D&D, however they do buy the players handbook and a few other books, play online a few times and quit, however those are sales that D&D never would have had from that 90% of LARPING idiot type of fan who just like watching a TV Show but don't want to game.

Quote from: thornad on January 06, 2023, 06:50:00 AM

Quote from: S'mon on January 06, 2023, 04:51:44 AM
Although you'll see in the comments there that me and a bunch of other law guys don't agree with his analysis. Although it's impossible to know for sure.

I hope you are right, but a consensus is forming among knowledgable lawyers that 1.0 can be revoked, and will be.

Looks more like 70% to non-revocable to me. More discussion in that thread. Anyway it looks now like they may not be trying to pull the OGL for everyone - https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-ogl-just-whats-going-on.694193/post-8880520 - if it's opt-in, yes they can do that.

Quote from: S'mon on January 06, 2023, 10:19:07 AM
Looks more like 70% to non-revocable to me. More discussion in that thread. Anyway it looks now like they may not be trying to pull the OGL for everyone - https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-ogl-just-whats-going-on.694193/post-8880520 - if it's opt-in, yes they can do that.

Sure and exactly one the initial condition of 4's Game System License was So it is not even a new tactic. And will go over as well as a lead balloon not built by the Mythbusters will.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 06, 2023, 09:42:00 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 06, 2023, 09:34:11 AM
But they were, all of them, deceived, for another D&D was made. In the land of Washington State in the fires of Seattle, Hasbro forged in secret a master Role-Playing Game, to control all others. And into this game they poured their cruelty, their malice and their will to dominate all life...

Did that joke already...

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 19, 2022, 08:09:52 AM

"One D&D to rule them all.
One D&D to find them.
One D&D to bring them all,
and in the Wokeness bind them."

The funny thing is that this joke was made when the OGL and SRD first appeared in 2000. At least on my corner of the world, people were thinking that it was a trap to kill all other RPGs.

Quote from: zer0th on January 07, 2023, 08:56:54 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 06, 2023, 09:42:00 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 06, 2023, 09:34:11 AM
But they were, all of them, deceived, for another D&D was made. In the land of Washington State in the fires of Seattle, Hasbro forged in secret a master Role-Playing Game, to control all others. And into this game they poured their cruelty, their malice and their will to dominate all life...

Did that joke already...

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 19, 2022, 08:09:52 AM

"One D&D to rule them all.
One D&D to find them.
One D&D to bring them all,
and in the Wokeness bind them."

The funny thing is that this joke was made when the OGL and SRD first appeared in 2000. At least on my corner of the world, people were thinking that it was a trap to kill all other RPGs.

Kevin Seimbedia of Palladium Books also thought it was a trap and refused to let any part of his creations touch the OGL despite fans begging him to get onboard.

I bet he's laughing his ass off right now.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 07, 2023, 09:04:57 AM

Quote from: zer0th on January 07, 2023, 08:56:54 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 06, 2023, 09:42:00 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 06, 2023, 09:34:11 AM
But they were, all of them, deceived, for another D&D was made. In the land of Washington State in the fires of Seattle, Hasbro forged in secret a master Role-Playing Game, to control all others. And into this game they poured their cruelty, their malice and their will to dominate all life...

Did that joke already...

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 19, 2022, 08:09:52 AM

"One D&D to rule them all.
One D&D to find them.
One D&D to bring them all,
and in the Wokeness bind them."

The funny thing is that this joke was made when the OGL and SRD first appeared in 2000. At least on my corner of the world, people were thinking that it was a trap to kill all other RPGs.

Kevin Seimbedia of Palladium Books also thought it was a trap and refused to let any part of his creations touch the OGL despite fans begging him to get onboard.

I bet he's laughing his ass off right now.

Palladium is a mostly irrelevant player in the RPG scene today, not sure there is anyone around to hear his laughter

Quote from: estar on November 30, 2022, 11:57:11 AM
Exactly there is a bunch of open content out there under the OGL that has nothing to do with D&D. The Legends RPG, Cepheus, Year Zero, etc.

Why didn't a group of companies get together and create their own OGL free of WotC for this sort of thing? Certainly Mongoose had enough money to hire a lawyer to take the OGL and duplicate it in function. I'm sure that'll happen now but it would be nice to have had it done 20 years ago. If I can ever get my Hot Tub Time Machine working again that's one of the things I'll be doing.

Quote from: thornad on January 06, 2023, 02:56:15 AM
Looks like Pundit was both right and wrong. Wizards is cancelling the OGL, and OSR will be affected. No unauthorized new OSR projects, or any D&D compatible products, permitted after the new license comes into effect.

I thought the OGL couldn't be revoked and once it was out it was out.  How did Wizards get around that?

Quote from: SirFrog on January 07, 2023, 10:02:18 AM

Palladium is a mostly irrelevant player in the RPG scene today, not sure there is anyone around to hear his laughter

'

Have they put out anything new anytime recently or are they just doing reprints and making supplements?

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 07, 2023, 12:01:13 PM

Quote from: thornad on January 06, 2023, 02:56:15 AM
Looks like Pundit was both right and wrong. Wizards is cancelling the OGL, and OSR will be affected. No unauthorized new OSR projects, or any D&D compatible products, permitted after the new license comes into effect.

I thought the OGL couldn't be revoked and once it was out it was out.  How did Wizards get around that?

By stating 1.1 is an update to 1.0a and further stating 1.0a is unauthorized therefore invalid.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on January 07, 2023, 12:13:27 PM

By stating 1.1 is an update to 1.0a and further stating 1.0a is unauthorized therefore invalid.

I thought there was something on their website that said that the OGL could never be revoked.  I know Wizards/Hasbro has the money to get the best lawyers but I could have sworn that even Wizards said it couldn't be revoked.  Then again, that may have been before Hasbro bought them.

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 07, 2023, 12:16:20 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on January 07, 2023, 12:13:27 PM

By stating 1.1 is an update to 1.0a and further stating 1.0a is unauthorized therefore invalid.

I thought there was something on their website that said that the OGL could never be revoked.  I know Wizards/Hasbro has the money to get the best lawyers but I could have sworn that even Wizards said it couldn't be revoked.  Then again, that may have been before Hasbro bought them.

I posted a very TLDR of what is floating around for reasoning on how WOTC is getting around the "can not be revoked" clause.

See other posts for more details.  All will
Be revealed on Jan 13th when the new license is revealed. 

As for other OGL options out there: mork borg is one. 

Quote from: THE_Leopold on January 07, 2023, 12:21:17 PM

I posted a very TLDR of what is floating around for reasoning on how WOTC is getting around the "can not be revoked" clause.

See other posts for more details.  All will
Be revealed on Jan 13th when the new license is revealed. 

As for other OGL options out there: mork borg is one.

I appreciate the information.  I am reading all of the threads and trying to absorb all of the information, not to mention watching videos talking about the situation.

Quote from: thornad on January 06, 2023, 06:50:00 AM


I hope you are right, but a consensus is forming among knowledgable lawyers that 1.0 can be revoked, and will be.

No, it's not. If you look, it's like 3 to 1 against that view in terms of attorneys chiming in. There is definitely no consensus forming among knowledgeable lawyers in that direction.

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 07, 2023, 12:16:20 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on January 07, 2023, 12:13:27 PM

By stating 1.1 is an update to 1.0a and further stating 1.0a is unauthorized therefore invalid.

I thought there was something on their website that said that the OGL could never be revoked.  I know Wizards/Hasbro has the money to get the best lawyers but I could have sworn that even Wizards said it couldn't be revoked.  Then again, that may have been before Hasbro bought them.

Yes, there's even an archive of the FAQ where WotC says it can never be revoked. That Hasbro owned them then or not is of no consecuence, you buy the company with ALL of the bagagge.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 07, 2023, 12:30:24 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 07, 2023, 12:16:20 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on January 07, 2023, 12:13:27 PM

By stating 1.1 is an update to 1.0a and further stating 1.0a is unauthorized therefore invalid.

I thought there was something on their website that said that the OGL could never be revoked.  I know Wizards/Hasbro has the money to get the best lawyers but I could have sworn that even Wizards said it couldn't be revoked.  Then again, that may have been before Hasbro bought them.

Yes, there's even an archive of the FAQ where WotC says it can never be revoked. That Hasbro owned them then or not is of no consecuence, you buy the company with ALL of the bagagge.

It was up well into while Hasbro owned them. I think that particular FAQ was only taken down a few years ago when they did a complete website revamp and removed a bunch of older materials. Copies can still be found all over the place on the web.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 07, 2023, 12:30:24 PM
Yes, there's even an archive of the FAQ where WotC says it can never be revoked. That Hasbro owned them then or not is of no consequence, you buy the company with ALL of the baggage.

Yep, I guess if you have all that money and all of those lawyers they think they can do what they want.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 07, 2023, 12:48:05 PM
It was up well into while Hasbro owned them. I think that particular FAQ was only taken down a few years ago when they did a complete website revamp and removed a bunch of older materials. Copies can still be found all over the place on the web.

Yeah, someone in a video said that.  But Hasbro has money and lawyers so they pretty much think they can ignore the rules and don't care about their fans.  They can do whatever and enough of their fans won't be bothered and stick with them.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 07, 2023, 12:26:42 PM

Quote from: thornad on January 06, 2023, 06:50:00 AM


I hope you are right, but a consensus is forming among knowledgable lawyers that 1.0 can be revoked, and will be.

No, it's not. If you look, it's like 3 to 1 against that view in terms of attorneys chiming in. There is definitely no consensus forming among knowledgeable lawyers in that direction.

Perhaps among general lawyers, who always make the "I'm not an IP expert" caveat to their analysis.

Among the ones with actual IP expertise pretty much all of them say Hasbro absolutely can, and one of the top IP attorneys in the country who is also familiar with Hasbro says their legal team is loaded for bear and out for blood to reclaim the D&D IP from all third parties... and you'd need $2-3 million and 3-4 years just to get it in front of a judge with the type of lawfare they intend to unleash.

But keep smoking that Hopium... I'm sure it'll all work out. [/sarc]

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 07, 2023, 01:22:29 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on January 07, 2023, 12:26:42 PM

Quote from: thornad on January 06, 2023, 06:50:00 AM


I hope you are right, but a consensus is forming among knowledgable lawyers that 1.0 can be revoked, and will be.

No, it's not. If you look, it's like 3 to 1 against that view in terms of attorneys chiming in. There is definitely no consensus forming among knowledgeable lawyers in that direction.

Perhaps among general lawyers, who always make the "I'm not an IP expert" caveat to their analysis.

Among the ones with actual IP expertise pretty much all of them say Hasbro absolutely can, and one of the top IP attorneys in the country who is also familiar with Hasbro says their legal team is loaded for bear and out for blood to reclaim the D&D IP from all third parties... and you'd need $2-3 million and 3-4 years just to get it in front of a judge with the type of lawfare they intend to unleash.

But keep smoking that Hopium... I'm sure it'll all work out. [/sarc]

Er, it's not really an IP issue, it's a Contract & Licencing issue.  The question is whether this kind of 'perpetual' licence can be revoked.

"one of the top IP attorneys in the country who is also familiar with Hasbro says their legal team is loaded for bear and out for blood" That is not the same as saying they'd win in court. Amacris' buddy is saying they're willing to drown opponents in lawfare costs.

I teach both IP & Contract, English law but everything the US lawyers have said indicates US contract law is very similar here. I think WoTC have a weak case. That doesn't mean they can't inflict pain via lawfare. Although if it's as bad as Amacris' friend said, I wonder how eg Chapterhouse could stand up to Games Workshop. This case looks quite a lot simpler than that one.

Looks like Tenkar has withdrawn claim that WoTC are not trying to close down OGL 1.0 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbG31kE3exk

It's looking like begun, the OGL Wars have
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plEiIPmTRUo

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 07, 2023, 01:22:29 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on January 07, 2023, 12:26:42 PM

Quote from: thornad on January 06, 2023, 06:50:00 AM


I hope you are right, but a consensus is forming among knowledgable lawyers that 1.0 can be revoked, and will be.

No, it's not. If you look, it's like 3 to 1 against that view in terms of attorneys chiming in. There is definitely no consensus forming among knowledgeable lawyers in that direction.

Perhaps among general lawyers, who always make the "I'm not an IP expert" caveat to their analysis.

Among the ones with actual IP expertise pretty much all of them say Hasbro absolutely can, and one of the top IP attorneys in the country who is also familiar with Hasbro says their legal team is loaded for bear and out for blood to reclaim the D&D IP from all third parties... and you'd need $2-3 million and 3-4 years just to get it in front of a judge with the type of lawfare they intend to unleash.

But keep smoking that Hopium... I'm sure it'll all work out. [/sarc]

Its not hopium. But it is not clear either.

Under federal copyright law such open 'irrevocable' licenses can be revoked after 35 years. However, the real issue issue is:

1. Can the OGL 1.* be revoked upon notice by the WotC, and
2. Can WotC retroactively revoke the OGL 1.* against existing properties?

As to 1 there is not a hard and fast answer here. Any lawyer that says "Definitely YES or NO!" is not to be trusted.Only a jury and a judge will sort that out.

As to 2 I think the law is a little bit more clear. The language of the license itself uses the term perpetual and is not a gift but an exchange with consideration (accepting the OGl 1.* gives WotC greater rights than under copyright law); that means what it means (subject to the 35 year rule). The WotC FAQ made it clear about 20 years ago that amending the OGL would NOT RESULT IN REVOCATION OF PRIOR OGL. Finally, there is the legal doctrine of 'reliance': if someone says or does something to encourage you to believe they are giving you a right and you act upon those promises or guarantees then they cannot revoke that right after the fact.

So, can WotC revoke the prior OGL moving forward? I don't think so, but I am not the judge that is going to preside over the case or the jury... and I don't want to be one of the parties in that case.

Can WotC retroactively revoke the OGL 1.* as to existing products developed under the OGL 1.* in reliance upon clear language of the text, reinforced by comments from the company, and based upon the reliance doctrine??? I don't think so. The OGL was issued and so many parties have relied upon it I don't think it can be revoked retroactively given the clear and obvious language of the OGL, the clear and obvious statements by WotC, and the the legal concept of 'reliance'.

Quote from: S'mon on January 07, 2023, 05:03:42 PM
Looks like Tenkar has withdrawn claim that WoTC are not trying to close down OGL 1.0 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbG31kE3exk
...

Well that sucks...

Now I have to hope that the WotC suits will hold the course and don't pivot in a year or so because of the outrage...

Please WotC suits, Please hold the course.

Don't listen to the fans! Scorched earth all the way baby!

To some extent the damage is done as most folks will avoid the OGL from this point forward unless they have no choice.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 07, 2023, 09:04:57 AM

Quote from: zer0th on January 07, 2023, 08:56:54 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 06, 2023, 09:42:00 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 06, 2023, 09:34:11 AM
But they were, all of them, deceived, for another D&D was made. In the land of Washington State in the fires of Seattle, Hasbro forged in secret a master Role-Playing Game, to control all others. And into this game they poured their cruelty, their malice and their will to dominate all life...

Did that joke already...

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 19, 2022, 08:09:52 AM

"One D&D to rule them all.
One D&D to find them.
One D&D to bring them all,
and in the Wokeness bind them."

The funny thing is that this joke was made when the OGL and SRD first appeared in 2000. At least on my corner of the world, people were thinking that it was a trap to kill all other RPGs.

Kevin Seimbedia of Palladium Books also thought it was a trap and refused to let any part of his creations touch the OGL despite fans begging him to get onboard.

I bet he's laughing his ass off right now.

And good for him. The OGL was good for small publishers to write "unofficially official" D&D product, and we had some good stuff come out of that space. But instead of making their own system, they hitched their product to somebody else's IP. And now that's coming around to bite them in the butt.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 07, 2023, 01:22:29 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on January 07, 2023, 12:26:42 PM

Quote from: thornad on January 06, 2023, 06:50:00 AM


I hope you are right, but a consensus is forming among knowledgable lawyers that 1.0 can be revoked, and will be.

No, it's not. If you look, it's like 3 to 1 against that view in terms of attorneys chiming in. There is definitely no consensus forming among knowledgeable lawyers in that direction.

Perhaps among general lawyers, who always make the "I'm not an IP expert" caveat to their analysis.

I am a lawyer who has represented RPG companies you know which use the OGL and SRD. My opinion differs from the opinion of that the lawyer you are referring to in meaningful ways. Not only that, but I think we pretty well proved that lawyer isn't even an IP lawyer and is a fairly new lawyer in general.

I don't know where this "This is the answer!" attitude is coming from when it comes to the law, but anyone with any real legal experience as an attorney does NOT take a firm stance on a topic like this in public. It's not cut and dried and if you see someone claiming it's cut and dried they are talking out of their ass and inexperienced.

QuoteAmong the ones with actual IP expertise pretty much all of them say Hasbro absolutely can, and one of the top IP attorneys in the country who is also familiar with Hasbro says their legal team is loaded for bear and out for blood to reclaim the D&D IP from all third parties...

And I am telling you that is a flawed view. WHO is the this "top IP attorneys in the country" you're referring to? I've worked with some of the best so I'd love to know their name.

Quoteand you'd need $2-3 million and 3-4 years just to get it in front of a judge with the type of lawfare they intend to unleash.

Oh you're referring to the Alexander Macris rumor I see. OK then. And I am the one on hopium? Wow.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 07, 2023, 08:20:45 PM
I don't know where this "This is the answer!" attitude is coming from when it comes to the law, but anyone with any real legal experience as an attorney does NOT take a firm stance on a topic like this in public. It's not cut and dried and if you see someone claiming it's cut and dried they are talking out of their ass and inexperienced.

I agree fully with Mistwell!  :o ;D

Hi Mistwell - did you see this skit by Professor Dungeon Master?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NeTRyZ0sQb0

I think it's lovely how WoTC has succeeded in finally bringing the RPG community together!  ;D

Quote from: Mistwell on January 07, 2023, 08:20:45 PM
I am a lawyer who has represented RPG companies you know which use the OGL and SRD. My opinion differs from the opinion of that the lawyer you are referring to in meaningful ways. Not only that, but I think we pretty well proved that lawyer isn't even an IP lawyer and is a fairly new lawyer in general.

Even as a Contract lawyer he seemed a bit confused, eg he was mixing up revocation of offer with termination of an existing contract.

The idea that legal opinions from non-IP lawyers don't matter is humorous. A lot of this stuff is just basic contract law combined with judicial rulings and interpretations that are easy to discover. What makes an IP lawyer's opinion more valid? Or not?

An IP lawyer spends most of his time handling just that area of law. He or she reads up on all the latest law on the subject, no matter how obscure and irrelevant for the rest of humanity. He or she gets these obscure newsletters that report on all this stuff. He or she is arguably more up to date with recent legal decisions, even if they are wrong and are most likely going to be overturned on appeal, trends in the industry, gossip about who is screwing who, who is getting hired and fired, etc. That can be useful, but really is not about the law.

IP lawyers can also be very biased and dishonest. An IP lawyer that only gets hired by one side in a legal argument is never going to give an honest analysis about the legal arguments. He or she is only going to give the party line since doing anything else might result in termination by your client who only wants to hear one side of the argument from the lawyer (at least publicly). Being such a lawyer often means most of your job is cheerleading for the client.

I will agree with Mistwell in that any lawyer who claims to know exactly what is going to happen is either a fool or cannot be trusted... or knows the judge way better than is proper. But then it is an old axiom in the law... its more important who you know than what you know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_dVH-0Yf8o&t=916s&ab_channel=RollofLaw

  I think it is extremely obvious WOTC wants a deeper bite of anyone who dares roll a d20 at a gaming table or makes gaming materials with one.   Probably want a bite of anyone using any dice, I think that "look" is going to be a bad one for them.  It will cause problems I think much more on a PR scale than legal.

We have a full-text leak to the public.

http://ogl.battlezoo.com/ (http://ogl.battlezoo.com/)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 09, 2023, 01:04:10 PM
We have a full-text leak to the public.

http://ogl.battlezoo.com/ (http://ogl.battlezoo.com/)

Quote
Additionally, over time the old OGL incorporated some confusing and even contradictory provisions. It was also written
in fairly dense legal language

So they made it easier to read by bloating the page count by a factor or 1500%?    Amazing logic.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on January 09, 2023, 01:50:48 PM
So they made it easier to read by bloating the page count by a factor or 1500%?    Amazing logic.

Since when did logic ever apply to lawyers...

This whole thing just makes me laugh. WotC literally destroying the OSR because they only have 98% market share instead of 100%.

Quote from: Brad on January 09, 2023, 01:53:13 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on January 09, 2023, 01:50:48 PM
So they made it easier to read by bloating the page count by a factor or 1500%?    Amazing logic.

Since when did logic ever apply to lawyers...

Only when it determines how many Hours they can bill for.

Here's another gem:

QuoteNon-Commercial only allows for creation of roleplaying games and supplements in printed media and
static electronic file formats. It does not allow for anything else, including but not limited to things like videos, virtual
tabletops or VTT campaigns, computer games, novels, apps, graphics novels, music, songs, dances, and pantomimes,.
You may engage in these activities only to the extent allowed under the Wizards of the Coast Fan Content Policy or
separately agreed between You and Us.

That catchy lil into song you play at the beginning of your videos? WOTC owns that now. Fuck you, get a license.

Want to mime a monster?   Nope, can't do that, unless you have a License.

Did the British write this document where you need a license for ever little thing?


Oh the termination clause is BEAUTIFUL
Things Thou Shalt only do with OGL 1.1

Quote
H. You will not use any of the content or works covered by Section I for any harmful, discriminatory, illegal, obscene, or
harassing purposes.
I. You will not do anything that could harm Our reputation, that of Dungeons & Dragons, or the reputation of the
Licensed Content or Unlicensed Content. For purposes of clarity, this provision does not apply to criticism of Wizards of
the Coast, Dungeons & Dragons, or the Licensed Content or Unlicensed Content that does not independently violate
these provisions.

Termination Clause:

Quote
Your activities under this
agreement, or if We determine in Our sole discretion that You have violated Section VIII.G or VIII.H. To be clear, We have
the sole right to decide what conduct violates Section VIII.G or Section VIII.H

lol and the part about the *phobias is real!

Quote
We know this may come off strong, but this is important: If You attempt to use the OGL as a basis to release blatantly
racist, sexist, homophobic, trans-phobic, bigoted or otherwise discriminatory content, or do anything We think triggers
these provisions, Your content is no longer licensed.

Wrong Think is Forbidden!  There goes Vengar, Pundit, and Raggi's livelihood.

Well they were, but they've changed plans at the moment.

Quote from: Omega on November 27, 2022, 03:55:19 PM
the OGL states that they can revoke your use of the OGL.

No, it doesn't.

Quote from: thornad on January 06, 2023, 06:50:00 AM
a consensus is forming among knowledgable lawyers that 1.0 can be revoked, and will be.

No, it isn't.