And if so, how will that affect what we see and play?

Lord Hobie

Quote from: Lord HobieAnd if so, how will that affect what we see and play?

Lord Hobie

IIRC, they have been working on 4E for over 2 years. I'm not sure I'd call that a rush job.

Well, as I was just saying in a thread at TBP, the (open, i.e., by the audience, not designers) playtest period, having just started, seems VERY short, and largely confined to a subset of the audience that is not purely representative of the whole. That in itself worries me.

In one big way, it is a rushjob. Its a rushjob in the sense that they didn't actually bring it out to the level of public consultation until very late in the game.

I'm betting they didn't playtest it outside of in-house at Wizards headquarters until rather late too.

The whole thing smacks of incestuous and lacking in consultation or outside objective looks.

Which is why it seems like there's so many things about it that should be done already and determined that they sound like they're not sure about, while there's other things that really don't sound very smart that they're boasting big about because they're all defensive about what they've done.

RPGPundit

I just don't get the big picture for 4e. Apart from moving to the online model, which I see as peripheral to the actual game and essentially business-driven, what is the VISION?? Maybe it's there, maybe there is indeed a clear direction, but I haven't seen it yet.

Quote from: The_ShadowI just don't get the big picture for 4e. Apart from moving to the online model, which I see as peripheral to the actual game and essentially business-driven, what is the VISION?? Maybe it's there, maybe there is indeed a clear direction, but I haven't seen it yet.

I worry that you haven't seen it yet because WOTC hasn't seen it yet.  

Lord Hobie

Quote from: RPGPunditWhich is why it seems like there's so many things about it that should be done already and determined that they sound like they're not sure about, while there's other things that really don't sound very smart that they're boasting big about because they're all defensive about what they've done.

Having seen similar behavior in smaller RPG design houses, I'm getting a whiff of that too. Not that I couldn't be reading into it, but that's the way it looks to me.

I can agree that the playtesting maybe got off the ground later than we expected but i don't think the desing was rushed.

I'm sure in-house playtesting has been going on for several months now. They still have ~5 months of outside playtesting, so I'm not worried. They have a lot people playtesting.

Rushed wouldn't be the term I use. "Chaotic" would be better.

They seem very confused about certain things.

It isn't really surprising, when you look at this design team and compare it to the previous.

I think that the answer could be that "the latter stages of the development are being rushed."

I have no doubt that 4e has been developing since Mike Mearls came onboard with Wizards. But if you take all the blogs at face value, as well as the fact that playtests are still ongoing (or starting?), then unless they are feeding us stuff that is 6 months old, i would say that the latter parts of development are a bit rushed. This may be indicative of the announcment being brought forward (for whatever reason), meaning that the late stages of dev are being compressed. Although admittedly with a smaller company without the resources of Wizards, when one of my projects is done, after you've done playtesting, a round or two of edits, then the thing goes for layout about 5-6 months before you expect it to hit the shelves...

Quote from: McrowI can agree that the playtesting maybe got off the ground later than we expected but i don't think the desing was rushed.

I'm sure in-house playtesting has been going on for several months now. They still have ~5 months of outside playtesting, so I'm not worried. They have a lot people playtesting.

No, see, 3e had a LOT of people playtesting. If you were to tell me that there were that many people playtesting 4e (and that they weren't all Wizards employees and their gaming groups), I'd feel far more secure about all this.

The fact is that by any account, the number of people playtesting 4e is miniscule by comparison to the number of people who had input in the playtesting of 3e. And to me that's a huge mistake.

RPGPundit

Quote from: One Horse TownI think that the answer could be that "the latter stages of the development are being rushed."

I have no doubt that 4e has been developing since Mike Mearls came onboard with Wizards. But if you take all the blogs at face value, as well as the fact that playtests are still ongoing (or starting?), then unless they are feeding us stuff that is 6 months old, i would say that the latter parts of development are a bit rushed. This may be indicative of the announcment being brought forward (for whatever reason), meaning that the late stages of dev are being compressed. Although admittedly with a smaller company without the resources of Wizards, when one of my projects is done, after you've done playtesting, a round or two of edits, then the thing goes for layout about 5-6 months before you expect it to hit the shelves...

Yes, the evidence does seem to be mounting to the effect that they didn't so much lie to us about the release date, as they changed their mind and decided to release early.

But there can't possibly be a good reason for rushing a project as important as a NEW fucking edition of D&D.  So again, huge mistake.

RPGPundit

Well, if 4E is a rush job, then we look fucking forward to Mongoose Traveller, due out in FEBRUARY.

I don't know, Pundit.  Perhaps there is a reason, and we just don't know it.

It does seem like someone suddenly lit a fire under someone's ass. But that happens all the time in companies.  Slowly develop something over several months, and then suddenly a sales guy comes is and says he told the client it will be delivered next week.  You shake your head and ask "WTF? our competition isn't coming to market for 1 year - we'll beat them by at least 6 months!" He says something about the Board pushing him.

You find out later that the competitor was also heavily courting your prized client and the Board felt the need to nip that before it had any traction.

Just as an example of not having all the information that went into a decision even when you are informed....

Quote from: RPGPunditBut there can't possibly be a good reason for rushing a project as important as a NEW fucking edition of D&D.

Sure there can. Market visibility.

Ask yourself:  Who decided there was a need for a new edition?  Wizards of the Coast themselves, or their corporate owners, Hasbro?  Now ask them.

A new edition puts the brand name squarely in the eye of the consumer again.  A new edition sells new books.  Hasbro is in the business of making money, and they do so by selling you what they produce, not necessarily what you want.

!i!