"An analysis of three lists of creature names, one from the Fantasy Supplement of Chainmail and two from The First Fantasy Campaign, provides intrinsic evidence that Chainmail includes fantasy material from Dave Arneson."

https://ruinsofmurkhill.proboards.com/thread/3245/evidence-chainmail-incorporates-material-arneson?page=1&scrollTo=41099

Make of it what you will. I saw a version of this on some other forum I can't remember. The author's methodology and conclusion were both strongly criticized given what both Arneson, Gygax and others have allegedly said regarding the origins of the game.

Looks like open season on Gygax isn't over yet.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1116117Looks like open season on Gygax isn't over yet.

It never will be. There are people eho pathologically despise Gygax. Because someone told them to. Not from any real evidence. Just because someone said Gygax was a mean ol man. Im pretty sure TSR after they got rid of him fostered this as well.

I wish I had that much time on my hands.

In 40 more years, any evidence of Gygax having anything to do with D&D will be erased from existence and all copies updated to Arneson and Arneson's Dog.

Isn't that Llaurenella's forum, full of his socks?  It is!  Someone make a bingo card using this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies  then go ahead and read that article.  You'll get to Bingo! very quickly , I should think.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1116117"An analysis of three lists of creature names, one from the Fantasy Supplement of Chainmail and two from The First Fantasy Campaign, provides intrinsic evidence that Chainmail includes fantasy material from Dave Arneson."

https://ruinsofmurkhill.proboards.com/thread/3245/evidence-chainmail-incorporates-material-arneson?page=1&scrollTo=41099

Make of it what you will. I saw a version of this on some other forum I can't remember. The author's methodology and conclusion were both strongly criticized given what both Arneson, Gygax and others have allegedly said regarding the origins of the game.

Looks like open season on Gygax isn't over yet.

Did someone just include an "Abstract" Section for a forum post?

Quote from: Franky;1116151Isn't that Llaurenella's forum, full of his socks?  It is!  Someone make a bingo card using this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies  then go ahead and read that article.  You'll get to Bingo! very quickly , I should think.

Mr. Sock is another winner who was happy to ride Gary's jock at DF while he was alive, and didn't develop a DA obsession until after EGG was dead (and a strain of the OSR became fascinated with origin what-ifs).

Why is it so impossible for the fandom to give both men credit?

Nothing gets produced in a vacuum. I do playtesting with a couple of local boardgame companies so I've seen the process from Idea to Prototype to Playtest to Produced game and even if there only one name on the eventual box, the reality is so many people had input at every stage.

D&D was created by Gary and Dave (or Dave and Gary).

They flogged this dead horse back in 2017 over on the 0D&D proboards, and firmly established that Chainmail was already published prior to Dave starting up his Blackmoor Fantasy Campaign. Chainmail was a wargame with some fantasy included. It broke down in play at Dave Arneson's gaming table so he tweaked it into what became D&D.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1116173It broke down in play at Dave Arneson's gaming table so he tweaked it into what became D&D.

That is not accurate Dave Arneson tweaked it until he developed his own rules. And it wasn't just chain mail at the beginning. From all accounts Dave was an excellent seat of the pants referee. His notebook however was more of a memonic aid than a rule book.

In contrast D&D start as a short manuscript typed up by Gygax after he experienced a session in the Blackmoor dungeon, talking with Dave and getting a few of this notes. Then he ran the Greyhawk campaign developing the rules further along with consulting with Dave.

The final version we see in the 3 LBB resulted from this.

Now while Gygax is the father of D&D, he couldn't have written it without Dave's help and advice. Because Dave was the first to figure out how to run a tabletop roleplaying campaign. The first to put everything together and to make it work. It didn't happen all at once with the Blackmoor campaign. At first it was a sophiscated ongoing Braustein where everyone played an indvidual character focus on the war between the baddies (PCs) and the good guys (also PCs). But because Dave was willing to say yes if it made sense the focus shifted to the antics of the player character rather than the war. This was cemented by the popularity of the Blackmoor dungeon.

However to this day we don't have the rules from any point during this process, just antecdotes and snippets. But nonetheless Dave helped Gary to become a tabletop roleplaying referee thus earning co author status on D&D even tho Gygax wrote all of it.

Thus Dave is the father of tabletop roleplaying and Gary is the father of D&D and there is no path to our hobby today that doesn't run through the two.

Quote from: EOTB;1116166Mr. Sock is another winner who was happy to ride Gary's jock at DF while he was alive, and didn't develop a DA obsession until after EGG was dead (and a strain of the OSR became fascinated with origin what-ifs).

The same within many different groups:

Someone tries to make themselves socially relevant by attaching themselves to a relevant persons "celebrity".

Insinuating themselves into their circle, and when that attachment eventually goes away; by tearing them down, ankle bite by ankle bite.

Quote from: Jaeger;1116239The same within many different groups:

Someone tries to make themselves socially relevant by attaching themselves to a relevant persons "celebrity".

Insinuating themselves into their circle, and when that attachment eventually goes away; by tearing them down, ankle bite by ankle bite.

There were other problems besides that. I stopped posting over at Murkhill, because the mods over (including perilous dreamer) there either deleted, or managed to lose a number of threads and discussions related to old school gaming, original D&D, Blackmoor, and the Wilderlands that had content contributed by original old school authors, as well as gamers (...including myself) and fans. One of my Pet Peeves is censorship by omission where inconvenient conversations are arbitrarily deleted by mods with no good cause and without remorse. You don't like what you hear even though it is the truth, too bad. Not my problem, and you better not censor me for telling the truth, or speaking my mind because I live in a free country.

Interestingly enough my account was banned from the 0D&D Proboards in October of 2018, another old school D&D board because Rafael (one of the Mods over there) over there wasn't happy that I refused to close my Murkhill account, just because they have a hard-on for killing their internet friend the  "Sockpuppet" and anyone associated with him, regardless of the actual status of the relationship (of which they are completely ignorant, by the way). He actually PM'ed me directly and told me to stop associating with Perilous Dreamer, and threatened to delete my account, and I just told him politely to fuck off, and get off my lawn.

You know, I petitioned Finarvn "Marv" to have my 0D&D proboards account reinstated a few weeks later and he said he would, but I checked it a couple weeks ago, and my account over there is banned. They don't want to talk about old school games, and original D&D and Traveller, and they don't want me to talk about old school games, fuck'em. They want to delete messages and threads because it doesn't fit there narrative of what "original D&D" should be, fuck' em. I was around when original D&D was the only thing being played, and know what really happened, who was responsible for what, and why. Their slithering narrative, deliberate and careful omissions in order to reinvent what original roleplaying and D&D was, is duly noted here, ...a place where the truth still matters.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1116241... I was around when original D&D was the only thing being played, and know what really happened, who was responsible for what, and why. Their slithering narrative, deliberate and careful omissions in order to reinvent what original roleplaying and D&D was, is duly noted here, ...a place where the truth still matters.

Ahh, the old "memory hole" trick...

Some people will go to great lengths to keep their delusion-bubble from being popped.

Quote from: Franky;1116151Isn't that Llaurenella's forum, full of his socks?  It is!  Someone make a bingo card using this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies  then go ahead and read that article.  You'll get to Bingo! very quickly , I should think.

But I thought Llaurenella was dead of cancer... twice. :rolleyes:

Anyway, move on, pops. D&D was written by Aretha Washington, a brave womyn of lesbian colour, whose original game, Unicorns & Feelings was appropriated by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson to deny her royalties, and turn her game into a heteromasculinist exercise in gendered political violence. You will be able to read all about it in detail in next week's Kotaku exposé.

Whoever this nut is that thinks Dave Arneson wrote most of Chainmail, he knows how to draw a really awesome Venn Diagram. I also like the part where he goes on and on about 'Trees.'

You gotta get that part to understand the rest of it.