(A)D&D asa we know it is dead. It´s now, as the fabulous S. John said: "the game branded D&D"

read for yourselves:

Quoten D&D, the words "adventure" and "quest" are virtually synonymous. They both mean a journey, fraught with danger that you undertake for a specific purpose. We sometimes joke that the game is all about killing monsters and taking their stuff, but the reality is that the game is about adventures. You go into the dungeon and kill monsters with a larger purpose in mind: to stop their raids on caravans, to rescue the townsfolk they've captured, to retrieve the lost Scepter of the Adamantine Kings for the rightful descendant of those kings.   Quests are the story glue that binds encounters together into adventures. They turn what would otherwise be a disjointed series of combats and interactions into a narrative -- a story with a beginning, a middle, and a climactic ending. They give characters a reason for doing what they do, and a feeling of accomplishment when they achieve their goals.
  Quests can be major or minor, they can involve the whole group or just a single character's personal goals, and they have levels just like encounters do. Completing a quest always brings a reward in experience points (equal to an encounter of its level for a major quest, or a monster of its level for a minor quest), and it often brings monetary rewards as well (on par with its XP reward, balanced with the rest of the treasure in the adventure). They can also bring other rewards, of course -- grants of land or title, the promise of a future favor, and so on.
  The idea of quest rewards is nothing new to D&D. Second Edition, in particular, promoted the idea of giving story rewards of experience points when players completed adventures. The quest rules in 4th Edition are directly descended from that idea, integrated into the economy of rewards in the game. They're a rules wrapper around the story of the game, a way to keep players mindful of the purposes behind all their adventuring.
  One of the suggestions in the 4th Edition Dungeon Master's Guide is to give players a visual, tactile representation of a quest as soon as they begin it. At the start of the adventure, after the baron has briefed the characters on their mission and been bullied into paying them more than he intended, you can hand the players an index card spelling out the details of the quest -- including the agreed-upon reward. In the middle of the adventure, when the characters find a key with a ruby set in its bow, you can hand them a card, telling them that finding the matching lock is a quest.
  When the players have cards or some other visual representation of their quests, it's easy for them to remember what they're supposed to be doing -- and to sort out goals that might be contradictory. That's a really interesting ramification of the quest system: It's okay to give the players quests they don't complete, quests that conflict with each other, or quests that conflict with the characters' alignments and values.
  For example, the mentor of the group's paladin might ask him to find and destroy the Ruby Tome of Savrith the Undying. At the same time, a shady character is offering the rogue a sizable sum in exchange for the same tome, and the wizard's research turns up a reference to a ritual contained in the Ruby Tome that the characters will need to use in order to complete another quest. Three quests stand at odds, and it's up to the players to decide what they want to do.
  There's a story that's a lot richer and more interesting than simply going into the dungeon to see what treasure is there.

That sounds fucking cool and doesn't offend me.

It seems also to be a SUGGESTION in the DMG. So even better, it shouldn't be intrusive and should be easily adapted to each group's tastes.

Where did you find that information?

DAMN!
I totally meant to post this overnight just to whip this place into a frenzy.

Though I gotta say, Sett ol' boy, you're once again hitting hard on the crack rocks with this one. If story awards + handouts = the death of D&D, we've all just been humping its corpse since 2e anyway.

EDIT: Though I'll grant you the bit about a card for the key is, as they say across the pond (I'm lead to believe), "a bit shit".

For those who don't know, this Design & Development article is by James Wyatt, one of the 4e team (and was one of the 3e team and is a good game designer), and can be found at the online Dragon magazine site.

If what you're complaining about is what is implied by his mentioning of cards as devices to keep quests straight, then I have to say that I had a similar thought. I would imagine that anyone at WotC is aware enough to know that if they mention cards of any kind in relation to D&D, a number of people are going to jump to the conclusion that cards will become a part of the game. It seems innocuous enough to mention using index cards, and it may well be an innocent bit of advice, but given who is writing that advice and his relation to 4e design and development (hence the name of the article), he should have made it clear that he wasn't saying cards are becoming a part of official rules of the game. Unless, of course, they are going to become a part of the game, or WotC is thinking about marketing a set of "quest cards" or some such.

'When the players have cards or some other visual representation of their quests, it's easy for them to remember what they're supposed to be doing'

Whether he's some God of Game Design or not - it comes across as patronizing and I'm sure it isn't intended that way.

I'm more offended by the prospect of 3 expensive core books plumped up with half-arsed musings about stuff WE DIDNT NEED TO BE TOLD WHEN WE BEGAN GAMING.

Have a reason for going down a dungeon. Not all characters need share the same reason.

bish-bosh, job's a good'un.

Yes gentle reader, you know where this thread's going, and it does !

Quote from: Consonant DudeThat sounds fucking cool and doesn't offend me.

Same here.

Quote from: Consonant DudeIt seems also to be a SUGGESTION in the DMG. So even better, it shouldn't be intrusive and should be easily adapted to each group's tastes.

Agreed.

Quote from: Christmas ApeThough I gotta say, Sett ol' boy, you're once again hitting hard on the crack rocks with this one. If story awards + handouts = the death of D&D, we've all just been humping its corpse since 2e anyway.

Yeah, if story awards and handouts are the problem for him, I knew people using 'em as house rules long before 2e came along.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonUnless, of course, they are going to become a part of the game, or WotC is thinking about marketing a set of "quest cards" or some such.

I imagine any official adventure above single-module size will come with Quest Cards. As someone who's never bought an actual module and is playing in his second ever published adventure currently (RttToEE, first was Dragon Mountain), I don't care. YMMV.

From EnWorld, I could not put it better:

QuotePC1: So what quests are we offered?
PC2: A, B, and C.
Player 1: How much XP for each?
Player 2: 1000, 2000, 4000
Player 1: Is C balanced for our character level?
Player 2: Sure, it's within the quest-by-level XP and gold guidelines.
PC1: We'll take quest C.

@Colonel: You will see how it will pan out. Trust me, it´s not what you think.

Quote from: Sean'When the players have cards or some other visual representation of their quests, it's easy for them to remember what they're supposed to be doing'

Words fail me :mad:

I don't know why. I mean, mnemonic devices could well help players stay focused. Plus, gamers already use somewhat similar devices to remember things - like character sheets (what, is someone REALLY gonna forget their alignment if it isn't written down?) and DM screens.

So, the other trouble is players metagaming to maximize their in-game rewards?

Yet older than story awards and handouts. I believe the "take everything that's not nailed down, come back with a crowbar for the rest" style of dungeoneering was predominant.

No sale, chief. The firmament remains above, where it belongs.

Quote from: Settembrini@Colonel: You will see how it will pan out. Trust me, it´s not what you think.

Y'know, someone quite a while ago posted a hoax about D&D becoming, essentially, a CCG. I'm not in the know - and neither are you - so I can just as easily reply by saying trust me, it's not what you think.

Huh!
Without quest cards, how have players ever remembered anything?
How did they ever keep track of their own agendas and goals?

OMG the sky is not falling, it´s a clusterfucking D&D ret4rdization.

And some don´t recognize it.

Quote from: Christmas ApeEDIT: Though I'll grant you the bit about a card for the key is, as they say across the pond (I'm lead to believe), "a bit shit".

That part is more than a bit shit.  It is total, utter ass.

If my players can't be bothered to take notes, they deserve to have horrible things happen.

"No, no, you were trying to keep the Orb of the Gods AWAY from the Blue Witch and give it to the Red Wizard, not off the Red Wizard and give the Orb to the Blue Witch.  Okay, she enslaves the world.  Game over.  Who's buying pizza?"

Quote from: Christmas ApeSo, the other trouble is players metagaming to maximize their in-game rewards?

Yet older than story awards and handouts. I believe the "take everything that's not nailed down, come back with a crowbar for the rest" style of dungeoneering was predominant.

No sale, chief. The firmament remains above, where it belongs.

Don't know about you, Ape, old boot, but "crowbar" was part of our standard dungeon crawl kit...:keke: