Quote from: SettembriniFrom EnWorld, I could not put it better:

There have been all manner of theories at EN World about 4e, many of them mutually exclusive, and many of them already discredited by what little has been revealed so far.

Jezuz fucking Christ. Why oh why do the people who run D&D feel they have to spoonfeed everything to drooling gamers? Do they want to drive out everyone who has some creativity, imagination, and independence, so they're left with a bunch of miniatures collectors who need to string together their tactical combat scenarios with quests that are more hackneyed and railroaded than any Choose Your Own Adventure book? Is there any element of the game that they don't want to turn into 3 choices on a flowchart?

But maybe they're right. Maybe that is the market today - players who can't think of what to do and need limited choices presented at every turn - color-coded and with bright numbers on them. And maybe the presumption that the players are a band of heroes going hither and yonder on quests to help Good King Cheesecliche is the way most people today want to play. Maybe for most of the D&D market, the less choice they have the better, and index cards telling you that get 5 points for saving the princess really are the model they want to follow.

I just wonder how in fuck we managed to make all that shit up when we were 11 years old.

Quote from: SettembriniHuh!
Without quest cards, how have players ever remembered anything?

I agree with this.  Quest cards is mollycoddling to a ridiculous degree.

But I still disagree with clerics not having to memorize Heal spells, and with evil clerics being able to heal and affect undead.

I also disagree with non-permanent level drain.

But nobody is forcing me to play a game I don't like.  I still use OD&D with bits from 1E.  If there's anything in 2E, 3E, or 4E I like, I'll use it.

Quote from: SettembriniHuh!
Without quest cards, how have players ever remembered anything?
How did they ever keep track of their own agendas and goals?

Classically, by writing things down. Sometimes on index cards.

Still looking for the panic.

QuoteOMG the sky is not falling, it´s a clusterfucking D&D ret4rdization.

And some don´t recognize it.

That's because this complaint is complete horseshit. Stop crying.

Quote from: SettembriniHuh!
Without quest cards, how have players ever remembered anything?
How did they ever keep track of their own agendas and goals?

OMG the sky is not falling, it´s a clusterfucking D&D ret4rdization.

And some don´t recognize it.

It's just a bit of DM advice. Until something a LOT more concrete comes along, that's all it is. The Chicken Little routine is kind of old - like, remember all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about how Ptolus was heralding the era of $100+ books? OK, it's a year and a half later, and I ain't seeing it. Same thing will almost certainly happen with this - people will wail "the game is becoming card based!" and when it doesn't happen, nary a peep will be heard.

Connect the dots.
Revisit the recent Mearls articles. They are not about what D&D has been.

Connect the dots yourself.

Quote from: Old GeezerDon't know about you, Ape, old boot, but "crowbar" was part of our standard dungeon crawl kit...:keke:

In my experience, things you need a crowbar to retrieve are less likely to be moved by relocating denizens once the killing stops (i.e., the party rests, inhabitants flee or fortify) and can be safely picked up once the bulk of the transient loot is safely in your bag of holding.

I mean, you'd bring one for jimmying and prying, but the point on loot stands.

Quote from: HaffrungJezuz fucking Christ. Why oh why do the people who run D&D feel they have to spoonfeed everything to drooling gamers? Do they want to drive out everyone who has some creativity, imagination, and independence, so they're left with a bunch of miniatures collectors who need to string together their tactical combat scenarios with quests that are more hackneyed and railroaded than any Choose Your Own Adventure book? Is there any element of the game that they don't want to turn into 3 choices on a flowchart?

But maybe they're right. Maybe that is the market today - players who can't think of what to do and need limited choices presented at every turn - color-coded and with bright numbers on them. And maybe the presumption that the players are a band of heroes going hither and yonder on quests to help Good King Cheesecliche is the way most people today want to play. Maybe for most of the D&D market, the less choice they have the better, and index cards telling you that get 5 points for saving the princess really are the model they want to follow.

I just wonder how in fuck we managed to make all that shit up when were 11 years old.

All this because the guy writes some DM advice that would have been comfortable in an issue of Dragon circa 1982? Suggesting something be written down on index cards to help remind players about something is advice that is decades old.

Quote from: SettembriniConnect the dots.
Revisit the recent Mearls articles. They are not about what D&D has been.

Connect the dots yourself.

No, you connect them. Lay out your theory here for us. Then, in a year or so, let's revisit your theory. If you're right, good for you. I'll be the first to admit you were wright. If you're wrong, own up to it.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonIt's just a bit of DM advice.

You don't think that model of design will find its way into official adventure books, the way the Delve format has? And you don't think the model presented in those books will come to define the way most people play the game?

DM: Path A, B, or C?

Player: Path B - I need a new magic wand.

DM: Okay, (pulls out illustrated tactical map and miniatures), let me set up combat scenario B1.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonAll this because the guy writes some DM advice that would have been comfortable in an issue of Dragon circa 1982? Suggesting something be written down on index cards to help remind players about something is advice that is decades old.

There's a difference between writing stuff up on index cards and using them to structure the whole 'quest' with a few narrow options.

Quote from: Christmas ApeClassically, by writing things down. Sometimes on index cards.

Still looking for the panic.

That's because this complaint is complete horseshit. Stop crying.

I think Sem's complaint is that it's written down FOR the players.

As opposed to, "Yeah, write it down, good idea.  But the GM ain't gonna do it for you."

I don't like it either, but I admit it's not the end of the world.

Quote from: HaffrungYou don't think that model of design will find its way into official adventure books, the way the Delve format has? And you don't think the model presented in those books will come to define the way most people play the game?

DM: Path A, B, or C?

Player: Path B - I need a new magic wand.

DM: Okay, (pulls out illustrated tactical map and miniatures), let me set up combat scenario B1.

Perhaps it will. Probably not as rigid as what you're thinking, though. Besides, the classic dungeon crawl type of module as written was pretty rigid in its construction, as well, and only presented a certain range of choices to the players. We see how those impacted the game and the way it's played. I don't see what you theorize as being all that different.

Quote from: HaffrungThere's a difference between writing stuff up on index cards and using them to structure the whole 'quest' with a few narrow options.

Yeah, the latter is called a "dungeoncrawl." Plus, that isn't what Wyatt wrote - it's the conclusion you leaped to from what he wrote.

Quote from: HaffrungYou don't think that model of design will find its way into official adventure books, the way the Delve format has?

It might. It might not. Depends on

Quote from: HaffrungAnd you don't think the model presented in those books will come to define the way most people play the game?

Shrug. I never once used a caller, had a caller in my group, or met anyone in real life who did.

Seanchai