... Call of Cthulhu with Toon.

All FATE does is pigeon-hole your character into a one-trick pony.

You can read/apply aspects more as flexible situational modifiers instead of story elements.

(And in fact, when running it to run non-Pulpy SF, that's what I usually do.)

As a more specific example, disallow pithy story-ish aspects and make them all about the characters training, experience, and capability. So instead of "destined to be the next emperor" or somesuch, go with "hardened marine infantryman" or somesuch.

Diaspora reads a little in this vein.

Quote from: Simlasa;936781... Call of Cthulhu with Toon.

SCNR

I think the OP of this thread might give you some ideas;).

I would argue that the fate points are necessary because they are what make aspects balanced. If you write a bunch of super useful, strong aspects for your character, you can constantly use them to get bonuses to your rolls, right?

But you need FATE points to use them, and you get FATE points by having someone compell a downside of one of your aspects. So someone who has all their aspects be "I'm the strongest guy who never gets hit" isn't going to actually be that effective in the game because he won't be able to afford to constantly invoke his "I'm the best dood" aspects, whereas someone whose aspects are written to sometimes be helpful and sometimes be a hindrance is going to have enough FATE points to play with.

Without it, I don't know how you make every character in the party be able to contribute.

Quote from: Axiomatic;936929I would argue that the fate points are necessary because they are what make aspects balanced. If you write a bunch of super useful, strong aspects for your character, you can constantly use them to get bonuses to your rolls, right?

If that how that aspect works why not? Character Aspects should reflect the reality of the setting as it pertains to characters.  Not every thing in life is valences. And for most aspects, they will be limited due how they work within the setting Either limited by scope or limited by resource and/or time.

Quote from: Axiomatic;936929But you need FATE points to use them, and you get FATE points by having someone compell a downside of one of your aspects.

Only if you play RAW and this thread not about playing RAW.

Also this mechanics illustrates the problem with trying force roleplaying through the rules. Every aspect has to have a downside worthy enough to generate a fate point. Putting the realism of that aside, every player has to metagame to come up with these downside. My experience is that most players will try to min max the shit out of this. It is very rare that a player will choose to play a gimp or take actions to hinder their character's goal.

Because Fate emphasizes this so strongly is why it is a niche RPG. It is a strong niche but still a niche compared to the top ten.

Quote from: Axiomatic;936929So someone who has all their aspects be "I'm the strongest guy who never gets hit" isn't going to actually be that effective in the game because he won't be able to afford to constantly invoke his "I'm the best dood" aspects, whereas someone whose aspects are written to sometimes be helpful yand sometimes be a hindrance is going to have enough FATE points to play with.

Of course unless the guy actually the strongest guy who never gets hit. Anyway it's the referee's job to decide whether this is part of his setting or not.

Quote from: Axiomatic;936929Without it, I don't know how you make every character in the party be able to contribute.

Maybe in the way that you and everybody else is contributing to this thread without fate points.

It simple describe the setting in natural terms and make the mechanics reflex that pen and paper reality. Fate and Fudge are a quick, and nice way of doing this as long as you are not hidebound by RAW in the case of Fate. The only downside is the lack of granularity between power levels.

And it is post like yours is why I say that my view is that story gamers and proponents of narrative are every bit as rules obsessed as the stereotypical rules lawyers of traditional RPGs are.

Good point both of you, Axiomatic and estar. Except I would not classify people to story gamers and traditionalists

Quote from: jux;936991Except I would not classify people to story gamers and traditionalists

What then?

Rules lawyers and Plays-well-with-others?

Quote from: Axiomatic;936929I would argue that the fate points are necessary because they are what make aspects balanced. If you write a bunch of super useful, strong aspects for your character, you can constantly use them to get bonuses to your rolls, right?

But you need FATE points to use them, and you get FATE points by having someone compell a downside of one of your aspects. So someone who has all their aspects be "I'm the strongest guy who never gets hit" isn't going to actually be that effective in the game because he won't be able to afford to constantly invoke his "I'm the best dood" aspects, whereas someone whose aspects are written to sometimes be helpful and sometimes be a hindrance is going to have enough FATE points to play with.

Without it, I don't know how you make every character in the party be able to contribute.

In the latest version of date they muddied the waters a bit on this point because aspects are always true, so you can argue you don't need to use a fate point, right?

Quote from: PencilBoy99;937110In the latest version of date they muddied the waters a bit on this point because aspects are always true, so you can argue you don't need to use a fate point, right?

Aspects may be always true but for you to gain a +2 bonus from that aspect you need to spend a fate point.

Quote from: estar;937117Aspects may be always true but for you to gain a +2 bonus from that aspect you need to spend a fate point.

And this is the point where my disbelief suspenders snap, loudly.

Either water is wet, or it isn't. And if I use the wetness of the water, or the darkness of a cave, or the crampedness of an office cubicle it is not something that tires me (using up mental or physical stamina) or is triggered by me.

If I splash a flask of oil on the ground and the goon's movement is not hindered (because I don't pay an abstract resource point) then the slipperyness of the oil is obviously not true in the shared imagined space.
And why should I have to pay that point - I already used a resource, my flask of oil.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;937211And this is the point where my disbelief suspenders snap, loudly.

Either water is wet, or it isn't. And if I use the wetness of the water, or the darkness of a cave, or the crampedness of an office cubicle it is not something that tires me (using up mental or physical stamina) or is triggered by me.

If I splash a flask of oil on the ground and the goon's movement is not hindered (because I don't pay an abstract resource point) then the slipperyness of the oil is obviously not true in the shared imagined space.
And why should I have to pay that point - I already used a resource, my flask of oil.

You don't have to spend a fate point, you can instead use Create an Advantage to get a free invocation or at the referee's call get a free invocation because the situation clearly calls for it. Spending a Fate point mean that the player decides that "fate" intervenes and they get to take advantage of an aspect regardless.

Look I get where you coming from. I refereed Fate RAW for several sessions to see what it was about. It too metagame for me and my players and the really try to hammer things into the Fate mechanics way too much. What I find aspects useful for is a nice free form way of doing what GURPS templates and Hero System packages do. You can see a little of this in the rules I posted where you have to be a cleric of a deity to get the Turn Undead ability. I never developed it further but aspects would have served as the foundation of how player gain special powers. Aspects would have roleplaying complications along with benefits.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;937211And this is the point where my disbelief suspenders snap, loudly.

Your mistake is believing there should be suspension of disbelief because you're looking for IC Immersion.  FATE is assuming at times you're authoring the story, you're changing it as you go.  There is no disbelief to suspend for the author.

As Estar wrote - FUDGE is the way to go. I'd not bother that much with converting FATE itself, as converting it to simulation is going against the strengths of the system.