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I am a sucker for rules light RPG systems and I really like what the bare bones of FATE system does in that regard. I especially like a system that has dynamic set of attributes/skills - not predefined list of skills. I think this can give a lot of freedom to the gameplay.
   
But I also like my games to be absent of "meta" rules, which many story games have. I think this community know best, what I mean. I can tolerate them to some degree, but now when it's a central thing in the game.

So as I read about this recent topic about FUDGE - which to me is kind of dead. No meaningful selection of games are available for it. But FATE has!
   
So I got really interested when I read that it's easy to strip story-gamey rules from FATE.
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?31438-FUDGE-is-kind-of-amazing&p=904270&viewfull=1#post904270

I'd really want to know if anyone has done it, how they use the FATE is such way? What other house-rules would be needed for it to work? As I find the Fate-Point mechanic is quite mandatory.

Also, it was told that FATE 2.0 seemed to be doing what I am looking for. What games are out there for FATE 2? Is it easy to go back to it from a FATE Core game?

Fudge , Fate it all the same thing. Fudge is a toolkit, Fate is a version of that Tool kit. Now Fate adds the idea of aspects which can be considered as packages of benefits along with roleplaying stuff. Along with Stunts which are specialized use of a particular skill. Fate doesn't have attribute instead everything is defined via skills. You could have attributes if you want to go that route.

The biggest issue for simulation of anything that +1 is at least a 35% gain in the chance of success.

Here is my stab at a Fantasy RPG using the mechanics.
http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MajesticRealmsRPG_Fudge_Rev%2017.zip

I'm in complete agreement with Estar, I do see Fudge and Fate as variants of a wider toolset.

I also agree that in terms of making the system more "simulationist" the lack of granularity is probably your biggest obstacle. As a physics model it will always be very broadstrokes.

As for what you might consider "story-gamey " I think it is with making the distinction between Fate/Fudge Points as a simple meta-game currency (like Savage World bennies) are a pure mechanic and meta-game currency that is attached to the narrative as with Fate Aspects invocations.  

I think you can pretty much drop the later (Aspects and invocation) if you like - it is an optional rule in ICONS to play without Aspects. You can also drop Declarations (using Fate Points for narrative control) if that isn't your thing. I'm not convinced you can drop Fate Points altogether, especially in their +2 to roll role because in themselves the Fudge dice are too predictable, too unforgiving if facing unfavorable odds.

If you want you can have a look at my to creations both on the Fudge-Fate spectrum:

Bounty Hunters of the Atomic Wastelands - Fate but toned right down.
https://ukrpdc.wordpress.com/2014/01/05/bounty-hunters-of-the-atomic-wastelands/

Cyberblues City -  Fudge jazzed right up.
https://ukrpdc.wordpress.com/2015/10/04/cyberblues-city/

Both game use meta-game currency I feel they are story-gamey at all.

You could also check out ICONS, though the new edition might have moved a few inches closer into story-game territory.

You can run Fate Accelerated like oD&D. And it's dead easy to convert spending Fate Points from a meta resource to an in game resource like "extra effort".

A year ago I wrote a guide to converting Fate characters to Fudge, based on the Fate Core SRD.  Here's the current version.

**Skills**

Fate skill -> Fudge skill or attribute
Mediocre (+0) -> Mediocre (-1)
Average (+1) -> Fair (0)
Fair (+2) -> Good (+1)
Good (+3) -> Great (+2)
Great (+4) -> Superb (+3)

**Stunts**

"Adding a New Action to a Skill" and "Creating a Rules Exception" stunts are converted to Gifts or just ignored.  A "backstab" stunt that allows you to use Stealth to make a physical attack might become a Gift that does the same, or it might be ignored for being irrelevant to Fudge rules.

"Adding a Bonus to an action" stunts just become skills.  The new skill is the base skill plus one level on the Fudge ladder.  No skill can go above Superb at character creation.

**Character Aspects**  

High Concepts generally translate to Skills and Attributes.  Troubles generally translate to Faults.  Regular aspects generally translate to a combination of traits, both good (Gifts and skills/attributes Good and above) and bad (Faults and skills/attributes Mediocre and below).

Sample conversions:  
Aspect: "The Princess' Favored Student" -> Gift: Social Contact (Princess), Gift: "Princess' Favor", Fault: "Treated poorly by her classmates", Fault: "Politicians want to use her"  
Aspect: "Arrogant Kung Fu Guy" -> Skill: Great Kung Fu, Fault: Overconfidence  
Aspect: "Ivory Tower" -> Attribute: Great Intelligence, Skill: Poor Social Skills  
Aspect: "Trained by Montcharles" -> Skill: Great Fencing, Fault: "Targetted by Montcharles' enemies"  
High Concept: "Dashing Space Smuggler" -> Attribute: Good Charisma, Skill: Great Smuggling  
Trouble: "Jabba Wants His Money" -> Fault: "Jabba Wants His Money"  

**Other Points of Conversion**

Combat and task resolution use Fudge rules, The Fate ladder becomes the Fudge ladder, stress tracks are converted to Wound Tracks, Refresh stays the same, Fate Points become Fudge Points, and all bonuses and penalties are divided by two.

Quote from: Soylent Green;936336I also agree that in terms of making the system more "simulationist" the lack of granularity is probably your biggest obstacle. As a physics model it will always be very broadstrokes.

As for what you might consider "story-gamey " I think it is with making the distinction between Fate/Fudge Points as a simple meta-game currency (like Savage World bennies) are a pure mechanic and meta-game currency that is attached to the narrative as with Fate Aspects invocations.  

I think you can pretty much drop the later (Aspects and invocation) if you like - it is an optional rule in ICONS to play without Aspects. You can also drop Declarations (using Fate Points for narrative control) if that isn't your thing. I'm not convinced you can drop Fate Points altogether, especially in their +2 to roll role because in themselves the Fudge dice are too predictable, too unforgiving if facing unfavorable odds

This is what I want. Physics model with very broad strokes. I also want to keep Aspects, but I want to reduce the player control - narrative mechanism from the game. I want the main CPU for calculating the physics to be the GM. I also do not like the Savage Worlds Pennies for same reason. It's a mechanism to save from extreme bad rolls. I'd rather have the swinginess, than having this to break the immersion.

But regarding FATE, I will take a look several of the resources provided. Starting with FATE 2.0 srd and Fudge light.

Quote from: jux;936317Also, it was told that FATE 2.0 seemed to be doing what I am looking for. What games are out there for FATE 2? Is it easy to go back to it with a FATE Core game?

Fate 2nd edition is freely available online. There are no games specifically forFate 2, because its an extra set of rules that adds to any ruleset one is using.

Fate 3rd is a completely different animal,so I don't know what you mean by "go back to it." You can use it instead of the system for a Fate 3rd game, in the way you ca use any system for any setting instead of the one provided.

To show the issue with granularity of 4dF use this combat simulator I wrote for my Fudge variant.
http://www.batintheattic.com/mwrpg/

With equal skills the fight goes like this.

Alex Wins 4979
Brian Wins 5021
Average Rds 4.8549
Total Initial Exchange Kills 870
Total Second Exchange Kills 704

With +1 to Alex OCV we get

Alex Wins 7268
Brian Wins 2732
Average Rds 3.19275
Total Initial Exchange Kills 1300
Total Second Exchange Kills 1022

I think the only thing I'd really want from Fate are the Aspects... or rather, the idea of statements about a character's profession/background/persona that cover a wide swath of skills... avoiding a long list of specific skills/powers. Not 'simulationist' at all really, but probably fast and avoids the way some Players' end up using their skill-based character sheet as a menu.

Quote from: Simlasa;936512I think the only thing I'd really want from Fate are the Aspects... or rather, the idea of statements about a character's profession/background/persona that cover a wide swath of skills... avoiding a long list of specific skills/powers. Not 'simulationist' at all really, but probably fast and avoids the way some Players' end up using their skill-based character sheet as a menu.

Several RPG systems do this by default, including Risus, Wushu, and Over The Edge.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;936483Fate 2nd edition is freely available online. There are no games specifically forFate 2, because its an extra set of rules that adds to any ruleset one is using.

Fate 3rd is a completely different animal,so I don't know what you mean by "go back to it." You can use it instead of the system for a Fate 3rd game, in the way you ca use any system for any setting instead of the one provided.

Tshh, I meant how easy it would be to play Fate 3 game with Fate 2 rules.

Quote from: Simlasa;936512I think the only thing I'd really want from Fate are the Aspects... or rather, the idea of statements about a character's profession/background/persona that cover a wide swath of skills... avoiding a long list of specific skills/powers. Not 'simulationist' at all really, but probably fast and avoids the way some Players' end up using their skill-based character sheet as a menu.

Exactly this is what I am looking for. BUT without the narrative ruleset on top of it. I would like how PC can immerse entirely into character's profession/background/persona - and not have any thought if he has some points left to "activate" his profession or not.

Quote from: abcd_z;936565Several RPG systems do this by default, including Risus, Wushu, and Over The Edge.

Will check those out, thanks!

Oh!  Also the PDQ system.  

I heard Heroquest does something similar, but I'm not as familiar with it.

FYI, Over the Edge has an Open Game Content version of the rules, stripped of setting, called WaRP.

Edit: Also, "FU".  The system, not the... yeah...

Quote from: jux;936706Tshh, I meant how easy it would be to play Fate 3 game with Fate 2 rules.

As easy as it would be to play any game with any other set of rules.

All FATE 2 is, is Aspects and a skill pyramid. Thats basically it. No Fate point economy, none of the bells and whistles of Fate 3rd edition. Its basically 5-10 pages (that probably could have been fit onto 2 with different formatting). The FATE 2nd system was meant to be an add-on to other rpg systems, 2nd uses Fudge as an example.

FATE 3rd is a complex stand-alone system that can be found presented as a generic rpg or as the basis for a few settings. You can play those settings with FATE 2nd, the same way you could play Dragonlance with The Window, Shadowrun with Risus, or Call of Cthulhu with FASERIP.

... Call of Cthulhu with Toon.

All FATE does is pigeon-hole your character into a one-trick pony.

You can read/apply aspects more as flexible situational modifiers instead of story elements.

(And in fact, when running it to run non-Pulpy SF, that's what I usually do.)

As a more specific example, disallow pithy story-ish aspects and make them all about the characters training, experience, and capability. So instead of "destined to be the next emperor" or somesuch, go with "hardened marine infantryman" or somesuch.

Diaspora reads a little in this vein.

Quote from: Simlasa;936781... Call of Cthulhu with Toon.

(http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/j7rl-5-e4da.jpg)

SCNR

I think the OP of this thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?34002-How-To-Play-Narrative-Games-If-You-Are-An-Immersionist) might give you some ideas;).

I would argue that the fate points are necessary because they are what make aspects balanced. If you write a bunch of super useful, strong aspects for your character, you can constantly use them to get bonuses to your rolls, right?

But you need FATE points to use them, and you get FATE points by having someone compell a downside of one of your aspects. So someone who has all their aspects be "I'm the strongest guy who never gets hit" isn't going to actually be that effective in the game because he won't be able to afford to constantly invoke his "I'm the best dood" aspects, whereas someone whose aspects are written to sometimes be helpful and sometimes be a hindrance is going to have enough FATE points to play with.

Without it, I don't know how you make every character in the party be able to contribute.

Quote from: Axiomatic;936929I would argue that the fate points are necessary because they are what make aspects balanced. If you write a bunch of super useful, strong aspects for your character, you can constantly use them to get bonuses to your rolls, right?

If that how that aspect works why not? Character Aspects should reflect the reality of the setting as it pertains to characters.  Not every thing in life is valences. And for most aspects, they will be limited due how they work within the setting Either limited by scope or limited by resource and/or time.

Quote from: Axiomatic;936929But you need FATE points to use them, and you get FATE points by having someone compell a downside of one of your aspects.

Only if you play RAW and this thread not about playing RAW.

Also this mechanics illustrates the problem with trying force roleplaying through the rules. Every aspect has to have a downside worthy enough to generate a fate point. Putting the realism of that aside, every player has to metagame to come up with these downside. My experience is that most players will try to min max the shit out of this. It is very rare that a player will choose to play a gimp or take actions to hinder their character's goal.

Because Fate emphasizes this so strongly is why it is a niche RPG. It is a strong niche but still a niche compared to the top ten.

Quote from: Axiomatic;936929So someone who has all their aspects be "I'm the strongest guy who never gets hit" isn't going to actually be that effective in the game because he won't be able to afford to constantly invoke his "I'm the best dood" aspects, whereas someone whose aspects are written to sometimes be helpful yand sometimes be a hindrance is going to have enough FATE points to play with.

Of course unless the guy actually the strongest guy who never gets hit. Anyway it's the referee's job to decide whether this is part of his setting or not.

Quote from: Axiomatic;936929Without it, I don't know how you make every character in the party be able to contribute.

Maybe in the way that you and everybody else is contributing to this thread without fate points.

It simple describe the setting in natural terms and make the mechanics reflex that pen and paper reality. Fate and Fudge are a quick, and nice way of doing this as long as you are not hidebound by RAW in the case of Fate. The only downside is the lack of granularity between power levels.

And it is post like yours is why I say that my view is that story gamers and proponents of narrative are every bit as rules obsessed as the stereotypical rules lawyers of traditional RPGs are.

Good point both of you, Axiomatic and estar. Except I would not classify people to story gamers and traditionalists :)

Quote from: jux;936991Except I would not classify people to story gamers and traditionalists :)

What then?

Rules lawyers and Plays-well-with-others?

Quote from: Axiomatic;936929I would argue that the fate points are necessary because they are what make aspects balanced. If you write a bunch of super useful, strong aspects for your character, you can constantly use them to get bonuses to your rolls, right?

But you need FATE points to use them, and you get FATE points by having someone compell a downside of one of your aspects. So someone who has all their aspects be "I'm the strongest guy who never gets hit" isn't going to actually be that effective in the game because he won't be able to afford to constantly invoke his "I'm the best dood" aspects, whereas someone whose aspects are written to sometimes be helpful and sometimes be a hindrance is going to have enough FATE points to play with.

Without it, I don't know how you make every character in the party be able to contribute.

In the latest version of date they muddied the waters a bit on this point because aspects are always true, so you can argue you don't need to use a fate point, right?

Quote from: PencilBoy99;937110In the latest version of date they muddied the waters a bit on this point because aspects are always true, so you can argue you don't need to use a fate point, right?

Aspects may be always true but for you to gain a +2 bonus from that aspect you need to spend a fate point.

Quote from: estar;937117Aspects may be always true but for you to gain a +2 bonus from that aspect you need to spend a fate point.

And this is the point where my disbelief suspenders snap, loudly.

Either water is wet, or it isn't. And if I use the wetness of the water, or the darkness of a cave, or the crampedness of an office cubicle it is not something that tires me (using up mental or physical stamina) or is triggered by me.

If I splash a flask of oil on the ground and the goon's movement is not hindered (because I don't pay an abstract resource point) then the slipperyness of the oil is obviously not true in the shared imagined space.
And why should I have to pay that point - I already used a resource, my flask of oil.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;937211And this is the point where my disbelief suspenders snap, loudly.

Either water is wet, or it isn't. And if I use the wetness of the water, or the darkness of a cave, or the crampedness of an office cubicle it is not something that tires me (using up mental or physical stamina) or is triggered by me.

If I splash a flask of oil on the ground and the goon's movement is not hindered (because I don't pay an abstract resource point) then the slipperyness of the oil is obviously not true in the shared imagined space.
And why should I have to pay that point - I already used a resource, my flask of oil.

You don't have to spend a fate point, you can instead use Create an Advantage to get a free invocation or at the referee's call get a free invocation because the situation clearly calls for it. Spending a Fate point mean that the player decides that "fate" intervenes and they get to take advantage of an aspect regardless.

Look I get where you coming from. I refereed Fate RAW for several sessions to see what it was about. It too metagame for me and my players and the really try to hammer things into the Fate mechanics way too much. What I find aspects useful for is a nice free form way of doing what GURPS templates and Hero System packages do. You can see a little of this in the rules I posted where you have to be a cleric of a deity to get the Turn Undead ability. I never developed it further but aspects would have served as the foundation of how player gain special powers. Aspects would have roleplaying complications along with benefits.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;937211And this is the point where my disbelief suspenders snap, loudly.

Your mistake is believing there should be suspension of disbelief because you're looking for IC Immersion.  FATE is assuming at times you're authoring the story, you're changing it as you go.  There is no disbelief to suspend for the author.

As Estar wrote - FUDGE is the way to go. I'd not bother that much with converting FATE itself, as converting it to simulation is going against the strengths of the system.

Quote from: Rincewind1;937229As Estar wrote - FUDGE is the way to go. I'd not bother that much with converting FATE itself, as converting it to simulation is going against the strengths of the system.

It's almost certainly the simpler option, indeed.

"simulationist" is a Forgist nonsense term.

IF what people mean is how to turn FATE into a fully regular RPG, there's ways to easily do this, and without getting rid of fate points altogether.

Quote from: RPGPundit;938666"simulationist" is a Forgist nonsense term.

IF what people mean is how to turn FATE into a fully regular RPG, there's ways to easily do this, and without getting rid of fate points altogether.

So how you earn fate points as a regular RPG?

Quote from: RPGPundit;938666"simulationist" is a Forgist nonsense term.

I would quibble with that.

"Simulationist" was originally uttered as part of the GDS theory on usenet.

GDS got coopted by Edwards, who wrote his own manifesto on what story - gaming is/should be. And then he went on to half-assedly try to explain simulationism is, and failed.

When I saw the thread title, I generously assumed it was targeted at people who know what it is and understand it. But I agree if you are operating under assumptions about simulation acquired from Edwards, you should stop doing that immediately.

My main thought is that if an aspect is relevant to a roll then it grants a +2 with no Fate point required. Starting refresh may need to be tweaked up or down depending on the game/group, I'm not sure.

However, what if Compels came from the players rather than the GM? If Refresh was set to 0, would players be more willing to allow bad things to happen to their character for Fate points? Would re-rolls and compels (and the Fate point economy as a whole) simply fall to the wayside?

I know that the guy that did Strands of Fate, a much more normal version of Fate, is working on a 2nd edition that looks very cool. As a favor to me please encourage this, as I would like a cooler version of Fate.

Pundit, how would you change Fate so that its' a more normal system. The new Fate System is very coherent but very non-normal (for me). Is there a version of it that you like? ICONS or something?

Quote from: PencilBoy99;939306I know that the guy that did Strands of Fate, a much more normal version of Fate, is working on a 2nd edition that looks very cool.

Does Strands drop all/most of the narrative stuff... like giving Players rules where they can alter the setting to their liking?

Quote from: RPGPundit;938666"simulationist" is a Forgist nonsense term.

IF what people mean is how to turn FATE into a fully regular RPG, there's ways to easily do this, and without getting rid of fate points altogether.

I totally agree. The premise of the question is dependent on whether you accept the categorisation.

Fate points can be incorporated into any game, if that is the way you want to go, and lets be clear: games like Target Games' James Bond 007 and Steve Jackson Game's Toon were doing plot manipulating points more than 30 years ago. Fate is basically a neat and well supported package of this sort of thing, but in no way is it exclusive.

Quote from: estar;938671So how you earn fate points as a regular RPG?

There would be various ways you could manage that.
The simplest would probably be that you only get a fixed pool of points each session.

Strangely relevant.

Remove Fate Points. Treat Aspects like Passions from Pendragon. So you can attempt any action the Aspect covers, but if you fail it means either the Aspect didn't cover it or it wasn't true at all. For every Aspect which fails in this manner, put a checkmark by it, and add a die to every roll you make until it's restored.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;939306I know that the guy that did Strands of Fate, a much more normal version of Fate,

Always funny how people assume they're tastes represent normal, huh.