Quote from: gleichman;574616That would be God, not god.

Also.. I could be wrong here, but I think little Jehanne would likely take exception at your claim of her having 'magic powers'. She would call it nothing more than the favor of God. But if you wish to side with the English and English loyalists of the time, that's your affair.

Outside that, I didn't think we were placing limits on what talents or supporters a candidate brought to the table. Next time maybe you should make yourself more clear.

The issue the Pundit is raising is not "what talents a candidate brought to the table" but "what reasons the military had for making a candidate into a commander". The side issue in question is, after all, whether medieval armies would see anything unusual in a 12-to-14-year-old leading them.

The reason why the maid of Orleans became a military commander were precisely because the French army was *looking* for someone unusual. There had been various prophecies circulating around, some of which said that they would be delivered from the English by a maiden. There were actually a couple tentative candidates who attempted to fulfill that prophecy. Jehanne was the first one who had the charisma and leadership skills to *really* fulfill the prophecy. After she had her first military setback, Phillip became interested in a different prophecy about a young boy and found a kid who seemed to fulfill *that* prophecy. (It didn't.)

So, the case of Jehanne d'Arc seems to support the position that very young commanders were not the norm. You needed a very special circumstance -- a desire for supernatural aid -- to make it happen.

Quote from: talysman;574656The issue the Pundit is raising is not "what talents a candidate brought to the table" but "what reasons the military had for making a candidate into a commander".

I think the point that Pundit is raising is that Pundit didn't like something he read.

Quote from: talysman;574656So, the case of Jehanne d'Arc seems to support the position that very young commanders were not the norm. You needed a very special circumstance -- a desire for supernatural aid -- to make it happen.

That I would agree to.

But if it happened in the real world, I don't think I'd being overly critical about a work of fiction.

Quote from: talysman;574656The issue the Pundit is raising is not "what talents a candidate brought to the table" but "what reasons the military had for making a candidate into a commander". The side issue in question is, after all, whether medieval armies would see anything unusual in a 12-to-14-year-old leading them.

The reason why the maid of Orleans became a military commander were precisely because the French army was *looking* for someone unusual. There had been various prophecies circulating around, some of which said that they would be delivered from the English by a maiden. There were actually a couple tentative candidates who attempted to fulfill that prophecy. Jehanne was the first one who had the charisma and leadership skills to *really* fulfill the prophecy. After she had her first military setback, Phillip became interested in a different prophecy about a young boy and found a kid who seemed to fulfill *that* prophecy. (It didn't.)

So, the case of Jehanne d'Arc seems to support the position that very young commanders were not the norm. You needed a very special circumstance -- a desire for supernatural aid -- to make it happen.

Precisely.

I'll note I can't really comment on some of the details given by jibbajabba about Jon Snow, since this is talking about spoilers from the books, which I haven't read.  So far, what I've seen of him from the tv show is that he's just a kid (mind you, certainly doesn't look 14 from his actor!) with a non-magical wolf and a ragged but not ass-kicked Night's Watch yet (though I can certainly see how they're likely to get their asses kicked).

As for the Black Prince, he was, first and foremost, a Prince.  He did not in fact command the army at Crecy, he was just the nominal leader of one wing of the forces, and had very expert military leaders who actually knew what they were doing right beside him (though obviously, he proved to be a really exceptional soldier in any case).  As a historian, I'm well aware that the notion that a 16-year old "Black Prince" (only he wasn't actually known as that at the time) would have singlehandedly lead a loyal-to-the-death army of thousands to a resounding victory because of his tactical brilliance is actually far more fairy-tale than truth.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;575052Precisely.

I'll note I can't really comment on some of the details given by jibbajabba about Jon Snow, since this is talking about spoilers from the books, which I haven't read.  So far, what I've seen of him from the tv show is that he's just a kid (mind you, certainly doesn't look 14 from his actor!) with a non-magical wolf and a ragged but not ass-kicked Night's Watch yet (though I can certainly see how they're likely to get their asses kicked).

As for the Black Prince, he was, first and foremost, a Prince.  He did not in fact command the army at Crecy, he was just the nominal leader of one wing of the forces, and had very expert military leaders who actually knew what they were doing right beside him (though obviously, he proved to be a really exceptional soldier in any case).  As a historian, I'm well aware that the notion that a 16-year old "Black Prince" (only he wasn't actually known as that at the time) would have singlehandedly lead a loyal-to-the-death army of thousands to a resounding victory because of his tactical brilliance is actually far more fairy-tale than truth.

RPGPundit

I stand corrected; I didn't mean to imply it was historically common for 16-year-olds to lead armies, but that he would even be considered for the job is one of these "more Medieval than the Middle Ages" things (like the droit de seigneur and other Enlightenment myths) that I enjoy having in my pseudo-Medieval fantasy gaming and literature. To be precise, I like how Martin pictures young characters having very "adult" responsibilities thrust upon them, which has a basis in history even if it's sometimes exaggerated for artistic effect.

Spoiler

In Jon Snow's case, he becomes Lord Commander after a clever bit of political maneuvering from his bro Sam Tarly; as the black brother's vote is split between the aristocratic Denys Mallister and the down-to-earth, pragmatical fellow bastard Cotter Pyke, the insufferable Janos Slynt threatens to win the election. Sam feeds the right lies to the right people and the two decide to back the bastard of Winterfell. Interesting shit ensues.

Oh, and in A Dance With Dragons, we get a Black Prince-like character in the young Aegon Targaryen, who seems eager to lead troops himself.